Author Topic: Yet another roaster upgrade question thread  (Read 5023 times)

Offline Benjamin

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Yet another roaster upgrade question thread
« on: April 20, 2018, 11:24:31 AM »
While I'm still hoping not to outgrow my Behmor this fast, I've just begun my descent down the rabbit hole of "giving to friends and family". I wouldn't really be looking to get into business at this point, but my local synagogue is still a couple hundred members.

Anyways, that got me into looking at upgrades to larger capacity roasters.

My thinking is that for my next machine, I would like something with the following qualities:
-Under $2500 (give or take a few hundred): At this price point, of course, I'm hoping to look at high quality, not-going-to-fall-apart-willy-nilly machines. Some service or self-setup installation ok.

-Lower capacity not more than 1/2#, Upper capacity not less than 3# (back-to-back roasting a plus).

-Energy efficient (completely secondary to the previous qualities, but if possible, a desire nonetheless)

My initial research seems to indicate that fluid bed roasters are more likely to fit this bill than drum roasters (e.g. Artisan 2.5 or 3-e), but I'd be interested on the musings and opinions of experienced GCBCers who have faced a similar decision.

Thanks for your input!
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Offline peter

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Re: Yet another roaster upgrade question thread
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2018, 12:36:37 PM »
A good place to start is to ask approx. how much do I expect to roast per week or per month?  And then, how many hours am I willing to commit to roasting that amount?
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Offline Ascholten

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Re: Yet another roaster upgrade question thread
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2018, 12:39:33 PM »
The 2500 dollar price tag is an issue unless you get a good deal on a used something somewhere.
The huky is a nice machine, at around 1500 ish I want to say but I think has a 1 lb capacity.

The artisan 2.5 may fit in very well and is around 3 lbs capacity or so.  I have the artisan 6 and love it.  The 3 would roast down to half a pound as well.  Although doable, that is a bit trickier on the A6.  The artisan is also electric, and efficient, especially if you run it off solar generated electricity like I do mine.  Electric also means not having to lug and fiddle with gas bottles or worry about a potential gas leak.

Other than that, other drum roasters tend to start around 4k and go up from there, unless you score an RK drum somewhere.

Hopefully some of our other members who have bigger machines can join in the conversation.

Aaron
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Offline Benjamin

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Re: Yet another roaster upgrade question thread
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2018, 01:39:35 PM »
A good place to start is to ask approx. how much do I expect to roast per week or per month?  And then, how many hours am I willing to commit to roasting that amount?

Yes, that's exactly the consideration. I'm thinking hypothetically I have 6 friends who drink a half pound each per week. So that's 3#/week, or 12#/month roughly. I would like not to spend any more than 30 minutes every other day roasting for recurring obligations (including my own consumption).

If it's for pleasure or to try something new is another story, which is why I still hope to find the flexibility to do quarter- or half-pound roasts.

A true 1# capacity machine might be doable if it can do back-to-back, then I could devote an hour one day per week and be fine. But if I get 12 friends, there's not a lot of growing room on that 1# machine. A 3# machine would also allow for greater uniformity in results for a larger number of people...

I've thought about Huky in the past, but I was reading about Sivetz and fluid bed roasting...and also roasting on gas in the home is a no-no (wife will not go for the aesthetics of it). Garage is the roasting den/man cave. I'm not opposed to gas, but it seems that fluid bed roasting is more energy-efficient and so my interest is piqued.

Regarding price (I'll use Artisan again as an example since their prices are clearest in my memory): The Artisan 2.5 is about 2900 and the 3-e is about 3300. Assuming the 3-e is significantly more energy efficient, I would be ok ponying up the extra dough in the beginning, as I'm sure my energy savings over the lifetime of the machine would add up.

Solar panels in WA aren't unheard of, but I also don't know how effective they actually are given the cloudy days (whereas FL is, after all, the Sunshine State)!
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Offline Ascholten

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Re: Yet another roaster upgrade question thread
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2018, 02:24:02 PM »
I understand you are energy conscious, but 'energy savings' is not one of the most important things to roasting good coffee.  In a purely physical world, a pound of beans.. to get from 75 degrees to 425 degrees is going to take X BTU's.  What I am getting at is, don't get so focused on energy savings that you pay 1200 extra for a machine that saves you 5 dollars over 5 years and gives crappy roasts because you can't get the heat up enough to roast the beans properly.  Electric is energy efficient, and from what you are saying, is more appeasing than gas.  The Artisan 1.5 may be a good route to go.
Also, it's better to buy a bit big and work your way into it, than spend 3k on a machine, and find out that, wow all of the sudden, you have a LOT of new friends because you are giving away awesome coffee, and now outgrow this one in a year and are looking to spend yet more money on another upgrade, and now have to get rid of the past upgrade.

Also you said you don't want to spend much more than 30 minutes a day on roasting.. well..... that's 1 roast a day.
Again, if your time is that critical, it's better to roast 1 a day, 2 or 3 times a week, than roast small, 7 times a week to satisfy your needs.

Aaron
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Offline Benjamin

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Re: Yet another roaster upgrade question thread
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2018, 02:52:53 PM »
Yes, as I said, energy efficiency is not the most important criteria at all. Much more important is to actually find something that will suit needs for a while to come. I figure I can do that if I can get 3# batches back to back.

Of course, this is all hypothetical for now. I think that my Behmor and I can handle things for the time being. Time isn't that precious, it's more the idea of flexibility, e.g. I develop a need to spend 40 mins per day in the roasting room, but then I get slammed at work or there's a family health thing to deal with, then I'm already making calls to friends or facing an 80 minute roasting day...whereas a larger capacity roaster would let me say, oh, ok, no big, just do a 3# batch instead of a 1# batch.

Any comments about fluid bed vs. drum roasters in general? Do you feel you have more/less/the same, or just a different kind of control when roasting on a fluid bed vs. drum roaster? I'm also supposing the Behmor-style roasters on eBay didn't hold much appeal for anybody?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Made-In-USA-5-Lb-Capacity-Indoor-Electric-Home-Coffee-Roaster-110VAC-Warranty/183129523641?hash=item2aa35ec5b9:g:OKYAAOSwPe1T7rfb
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Offline ptrmorton

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Re: Yet another roaster upgrade question thread
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2018, 03:53:53 PM »
I'm also supposing the Behmor-style roasters on eBay didn't hold much appeal for anybody?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Made-In-USA-5-Lb-Capacity-Indoor-Electric-Home-Coffee-Roaster-110VAC-Warranty/183129523641?hash=item2aa35ec5b9:g:OKYAAOSwPe1T7rfb


IMHO, I just can't see how 110V roaster could do 5# in a reasonable length of time without baking the beans - period - even using two circuits - which is inconvenient.  The physics just don't work - even in Arizona on a 115 degree day!  ;D
« Last Edit: April 20, 2018, 03:59:14 PM by ptrmorton »
AZ Peter

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Offline Ascholten

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Re: Yet another roaster upgrade question thread
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2018, 04:49:26 PM »
A Behmor is going to give you a pound Max per roast period,  lets be honest... 12 oz on a good day pre roast weight.  Then you take 20 minutes to roast, 20 minutes to cool on it.  per batch.
I am not trying to pry into your personal life but, when you say, 'and then when I get dragged away for this or that, now I have to find time to roast this or that'  It almost sounds like you are obligating yourself to HAVE to roast this coffee.  You are already making excuses for not meeting your quota, and you don't even have the roaster yet.  If this is going to be a problem, get the bigger roaster, roast once or twice a week, so that when these issues DO come up, which they do!, the coffee is already roasted and a late day at work, wife nagging etc is not going to throw you behind the 8 ball.  Don't have to 'find time' to have to roast your coffee.  It will quickly turn into a chore and you will NOT have fun anymore doing it!  That will just suck in the long run.  Instead of, "well shit, NOW I have to stay up an extra hour to roast coffee for so and so, make it a, ahh, I got some free time, let's do a roast, (because the last roast was 4 lbs and it stretched a week) type thing and if you are busy 2 or 3 days in a row, no biggie!

The Artisan should work for you.

Fluid bed .vs. Drum.  You are going to hear a ton from both sides of that.  Having used both, I am  not going to get into that fight.  You can get awesome roasts out of BOTH types of roasting.  Hint: Learn how to use your machine no matter what kind it is, THAT is the key to good coffee.

I have roasted 20 plus dollar a pound beans in my  Behmor and in my I roast and have let a few people sample them and not one of them could tell me which was roasted with which but both agreed OMFG that coffee is awesome, can I get some greens from you?   I have also roasted 2 dollar a pound beans in both and turned out great.  My point is, learn how to use your machine and you have learned how to overcome any 'issues' ie  Waah this method is too bright, boo hoo, that people may try to say about one .vs. the other. Both types of roasters work equally well.


Aaron
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Offline Benjamin

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Re: Yet another roaster upgrade question thread
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2018, 08:51:06 PM »
A Behmor is going to give you a pound Max per roast period,  lets be honest... 12 oz on a good day pre roast weight.  Then you take 20 minutes to roast, 20 minutes to cool on it.  per batch.
I am not trying to pry into your personal life....That will just suck in the long run!

The Artisan should work for you.

Fluid bed .vs. Drum.....Both types of roasters work equally well.


Aaron

First of all thank you for taking the time to type up all of that. I don’t mean to make it sound like roasting is a chore, in fact with this thread I am trying to think through possible issues to prevent that from happening. I am happily offering coffee to people both to [hopefully!] brighten their days as well as get practice (and a reason to build up my green stash ;D)

As for fluid bed vs. drum, I suppose the question kind of answers itself when you realize that Royal Coffee does Ikawa roasts before transferring over to the probatino  :)
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Offline Ascholten

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Re: Yet another roaster upgrade question thread
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2018, 03:54:10 AM »
That's funny that you bring that up.  I was just talking to them about the Ikawa roaster and they love it.  I was looking for something that did well... small batches.  See when we get a sample, it's 8 oz.  You got ONE shot to do it right, if you blow it, you either drag your tail and ask for another sample, or try to figure out what is supposed to be in there.  That is why sometimes Im a bit late in getting my distro's going.  i roasted it and said, well yep, this is good, good enough that I am going to sell, but, I bet if I did this instead of that it'd be better.  I'll grab the bag, then roast it another way, ie let  it run an extra minute or whatever then get the best of both worlds and offer more of a spread of what you can expect out of it.  With the Ika you can probably get 3 or 4 sample roasts out of that 8 oz. so if you do pooch one, you got more beans to try again....

Thread hijack warning....
On this, the price tag on that thing is very steep, about what you are looking to pay for an upgrade.  I was thinking back on my I roast days, I could mod a poppery with SSR controls, maybe a variac on the fan and I could probably make one similar but without all the android interface etc.  I was thinking I may be able to make a small sample roaster for a few hundred tops if I got really stupid with gadgets, but without the elegance of theirs, that would do the same thing.

Back to your topic :)
Roasting as a chore,  no it isn't now, that was kind of the point I was trying to make.  Right now you have fun doing it, but if you get yourself into a spot where you are having to do a LOT of roasting (like having to do 10 Lbs in a machine having a 1 lb capacity) and you are now spending hours and hours churning out roasts, it might become  a chore and lose some of that 'fun' part of it.  Which is what we are trying to avoid.  You want to be in a spot where you make coffee in your free time because you want to, not because you have to or you'll fall behind everyone elses expectations.

Let's blend the OT with the Hijack:  Speaking of modding stuff.  Perhaps you could look into an RK drum style roaster.  It'd be gas. (I bet you could rig a grill up with heating element packs) but would be able to handle a good few pounds for you, and not break the bank.

THis 'hobby' can grow on you if you don't watch it :)  Peter can vouch for me there.  I started out grabbing a bag of coffee every month or so and selling it.  Now, we have Peter getting pallets of coffee delivered to his house to sell.  I am driving pick up trucks full of coffee to my house to sell.  We both sell roasted coffee too... ayup....it is addictive.

Aaron
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Offline peter

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Re: Yet another roaster upgrade question thread
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2018, 09:37:01 AM »
It is addictive, Aaron.  We just have to watch out for burnout - no matter what it is a person does, after years of doing it my on-or-off tendencies can make something I always enjoyed suddenly jump the shark.

Just for some perspective on my journey; my first roaster was an SC/TO, roasting for myself.  Samples went to a few buddies to see if I was imagining things - they said if I'd roast some for them, they'd buy it.  They told others, mainly at church, and before long I was building a 2nd SC/TO.  The sweet-spot batch size netted me 4#/hr.  For years I averaged 70#/mo. using the two roasters, which meant ~17hrs of roasting per month, or ~4.5hrs. per week.  It was OK.  Then 7 years ago, a member here had a 2K Ambex he had outgrown and sold it to me.  3# batches, 12#/hr.  Sales have gone up to 100#/mo., which translates ~8 or 9 hours roasting, or 2 or 3 hours per week.  Half the time roasting, with 50% more sales = happier me, and more happy customers.
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Offline Ascholten

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Re: Yet another roaster upgrade question thread
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2018, 09:51:50 AM »
Peter is a perfect example of what we are saying here.  If you really are looking to get into the 'giving away / selling' roasted coffee thing.  It's better to get a perhaps slightly bigger roaster than you 'currently' need, than get one, and outgrow it soon afterwards.  I have a feeling that once word of the awesomeness of your coffee gets out at your Synagogue, you are going to find your customer base going up up and up.

You may like roasting coffee in your free time, but you don't want to end up spending all your free time roasting coffee.

If you have any questions about the Artisan, please feel free to PM me with them, I'd be happy to answer them for you.

Aaron
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Offline Jddurango

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Re: Yet another roaster upgrade question thread
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2018, 08:23:00 AM »
Peter, how do you like your 2K Ambex?

I bought a Huky about 6 months ago.  While I like it...I'm ready for something bigger for bigger batches.

Offline peter

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Re: Yet another roaster upgrade question thread
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2018, 12:27:20 PM »
Peter, how do you like your 2K Ambex?

I bought a Huky about 6 months ago.  While I like it...I'm ready for something bigger for bigger batches.

It's been flawless.  I just clean the fan and ducts and grease it every 2-3 months and it chugs right along.  Granted, at ~100#/mo. the roaster's only seeing 9 hours of roasting plus warm up/cool down, but the member that sold it to me used it 40hrs/week for a long time before he finally upgraded to a 10K.  So it's been put through its paces, and has never let me down.

Mine has a Watlow thingie that lets you set a temperature for the gas to go on/off, and it has a dial and a gauge to show gas pressure - that controls the flames.  It's old school for sure, as far as any PID's or profiling, and that's fine with me.
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Offline Ascholten

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Re: Yet another roaster upgrade question thread
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2018, 01:21:53 PM »
Peter, as for full PID, unless you have a process that absolutely NEEDS it, it is not really necessary to roast coffee as you have seen.  Even if you did spend the time to 'teach it' a profile, it'd be different for every bean type really.  A lot of nerdsome overkill that in the end would just cause more work for little extra return IMO.

Aaron
As I have grown older, I have learned that pleasing everybody is impossible, but pissing everybody off is a piece of cake!