Author Topic: Can you really get good pulls by converting to a non pressurized basket?  (Read 7551 times)

Offline newroaster

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For many years I've had a cheap, pressurized espresso machine. Pulls always pretty good for what it is. Finally found a non-pressurized portafilter that fits. Got the grind adjusted. Pulls take about 30 seconds. Pretty good crema, but taste like burnt tires.

Is switching to a non-pressurized portafilter on a low end machine something that just can't be done really well?

Offline Ascholten

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Im not the espresso expert here but id have to unqualifiedly say, I bet yes it CAN be done, probably have to make some adjustments in your process, some of them possibly significantly different than your current process. 

I am sure that there are plenty of folks here who can lead you the proper direction w/o composting a whole bunch of grounds.

Aaron
As I have grown older, I have learned that pleasing everybody is impossible, but pissing everybody off is a piece of cake!

Offline Badam

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For many years I've had a cheap, pressurized espresso machine. Pulls always pretty good for what it is. Finally found a non-pressurized portafilter that fits. Got the grind adjusted. Pulls take about 30 seconds. Pretty good crema, but taste like burnt tires.

Is switching to a non-pressurized portafilter on a low end machine something that just can't be done really well?

I had a delonghi that I did just this on. I cut off the bottom of the portafilter and replaced it with a large non-pressurized basket. It lasted for about a month before the plastic shims on the lock in mechanism broke. I don't think that was related... You will need a good grinder if you hope to pull good shots.

I would try to start-dump your shot, maybe the first 5mL of espresso just let run into the tray. Then collect the rest of your shot. It should improve significantly. It isn't the best shot ever pulled, but it should be more than drinkable.

Offline grinderz

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By "pressurized", do you mean the machine has a pump - like a Gaggia, or Starb*cks Barista, Saeco, etc? Or is the kind that makes pressure by heating the water only like a Krupps?

If it's the former, then heck yeah! The primary issue is getting the grind right. I assume you've got a tamper? I had a $350 Saeco for a long time that was my main machine. After I learned to temp surf and got a good grinder, I was quite satisfied with the results. I eventually upgraded to a "prosumer" model, but any improvement in the quality of espresso I can make with it was merely incremental. The biggest difference was in the grinder, not the machine.

What kind machine, grinder, beans are you using?


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Offline newroaster

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It's a Lello Ariete Prestige. Kind of like the other pressurized espresso makers out there, 15 bars, pump, etc. not like one of those steam toys. Good but not great. I have a Baratza Encore grinder too and have been fiddling with grind & tamp since I posted. It's a nice 30 second pull now with thick albeit blond crema. But it doesn't have that great coffee oil taste that my new Flair manual lever machine has. And the Flair gives a much darker crema with the same beans. I think the Flair has spoiled me.

Offline Badam

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By "pressurized", do you mean the machine has a pump - like a Gaggia, or Starb*cks Barista, Saeco, etc? Or is the kind that makes pressure by heating the water only like a Krupps?

If it's the former, then heck yeah! The primary issue is getting the grind right. I assume you've got a tamper? I had a $350 Saeco for a long time that was my main machine. After I learned to temp surf and got a good grinder, I was quite satisfied with the results. I eventually upgraded to a "prosumer" model, but any improvement in the quality of espresso I can make with it was merely incremental. The biggest difference was in the grinder, not the machine.

What kind machine, grinder, beans are you using?

I know late reply. But I think he was referring to the basket alone. Some of the lower models have the spring loaded basket so they will only flow when the pressure hits ~9 bar regardless if the grind and tamp give enough back pressure to reach 9 bar.

Offline newroaster

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Hmmm, I have no idea whether it's spring loaded? When I turn the dial to brew it takes maybe 2 seconds to start. How would I know if it's spring loaded??

Thanks Badman

Offline Badam

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Hmmm, I have no idea whether it's spring loaded? When I turn the dial to brew it takes maybe 2 seconds to start. How would I know if it's spring loaded??

Thanks Badman


For spring loaded ones it'll look like this or similar:

Namely there is some housing and inside there is a spring if you disassemble it.

But there are also a few other types of pressurized baskets like these on the right:


Unless it looks like the ones on the left with all holes going through the bottom of the basket it is pressurized. The beauty of the spring loaded ones and and all pressurized is that you don't need a good grinder to get espresso. The drawback is that you don't need a good grinder to get espresso so you wont get anywhere near the full potential of the beans, nor can you control flow, extraction, etc... using the grind.

I'm not too much of a badman, just Adam B, haha. I should've made the username reversed so it didn't read like that.

Offline newroaster

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I see. My original basket is like the one on the right in the middle. One tiny hole in the middle and a bunch of fake holes throughout. Never seen the spring loaded before.  Recently, I bought a basket that fits the Ariete Prestige with tiny holes throughout. (True non pressurized)  I need to do a comparison between the old Ariete and my new Flair which makes killer singles. I have a Baratza Encore which, as you probably know, is quite good. The Flair is also rather forgiving.

Thanks for the info!

Bob

Offline Ascholten

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What happens when the spring mech gets crudded up with coffee crap and does not want to open up at the proper pressure.  The Espresso machine lifts it's safety or what else?  Seems like a bit of a pain to keep clean possibly?

Aaron
As I have grown older, I have learned that pleasing everybody is impossible, but pissing everybody off is a piece of cake!

Offline Badam

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What happens when the spring mech gets crudded up with coffee crap and does not want to open up at the proper pressure.  The Espresso machine lifts it's safety or what else?  Seems like a bit of a pain to keep clean possibly?

Aaron

Then you get a nice portafilter "sneeze," 30 minutes of cleaning, and a pissed off wife, hahaha. ;D The pump won't go over its rated pressure or at least over a top pressure. Most of the good pumps are 15 bars, but some of the cheaper are 10.

Back in the day when I was using these I just took it apart after every shot, it was more work than my Pasquini and Gaggia. The pressurized filters are definitely not the way to go if you can avoid it, I think really their utility is with travel espresso makers.

Offline newroaster

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So upon closer inspection of your pix and  the new nonpressurized basket I bought, what I have is a mesh rather than micro holes. Can this really do the same job as a native non pressurized basket? Can you get a Rancilio Silvia pull from a cheap pressurized machine just by finding a good non pressurized basket and using a good grinder? Are micro holes better than mesh??

Offline Badam

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So upon closer inspection of your pix and  the new nonpressurized basket I bought, what I have is a mesh rather than micro holes. Can this really do the same job as a native non pressurized basket? Can you get a Rancilio Silvia pull from a cheap pressurized machine just by finding a good non pressurized basket and using a good grinder? Are micro holes better than mesh??

I think they arbitrarily used the terms mesh and micro holes. Don't get me wrong there are plenty of baskets marketed out there on slight differences in basket, but your new non-pressurized basket should work like the one in the pictures.
As far as the ability to pull good shots, with the right grinder, you can absolutely pull better/good shots. I think what espresso machine matters too though. The steam espresso machines will not pull better shots due to the basket as they hit 1-1.5 bar max and overheat the grounds.

However, there is a reason that SOME of the espresso machines cost more. A Gaggia over a De'Longhi has a much better pump, a better group, better and bigger boiler, a 3-way valve, bigger water reservoir, etc... A Rancilio Silvia over a Gaggia has a bigger boiler, better heating element, better 3-way valve(the newer ones at least), better steam wand, heat exchanger, etc... And it goes on up. It seems like the higher model machines allow you to control more, with much more precision. E61 brewhead, PIDs, dual boilers, dedicated hot water spout, etc... As with anything in life, you can spend as much as you're willing to shell out, although you will hit diminishing returns eventually, depending on how discerning your taste-buds and how high you can point your nose in the air, haha.  ;D

Offline Ascholten

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Now that I understand the whole pressurized .vs. non pressurized a bit better.  i guess a more correct term would be 'back pressurized', I have to say that yes, non pressurized you can pull awesome shots.  I have a gaggia and have really pulled some fantastic shots with it.   I have made some horrible paint removers as well, but a good shot definitely is doable.

While I am nowhere near an expert at espresso, I am going to stick my neck out and say what I say about roasting... learn your machine and how to make it do what you want and you can get some good stuff out of it.

We know some things are an absolute must to good espresso, ie a good grinder, but other things are not necessarily critical.  this starts getting into the old argument,  Chevy .vs. Ford which is better?  Fluid Bed or Drum Roaster.  You can do well with either / both.

Aaron
As I have grown older, I have learned that pleasing everybody is impossible, but pissing everybody off is a piece of cake!

Offline newroaster

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So guys,

Here's a link to my exact pressurized espresso maker. Came with a brew basket with one tiny hole in the middle. Now it seems to work fine with the new non pressurized basket with all the holes.

Steam toy or not a steam toy??

http://a.co/5aWa9Sq