Green Coffee Buying Club
Vendor Discussion Boards => Commercial Hardware discussion => Topic started by: donnie cole on March 08, 2017, 08:28:17 PM
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Anyone have any experience with Buckeye Coffee Roasters. I'm considering the Phoenix Oro 2.5 but haven't seen any reviews on them.
Thanks Donnie
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Randy at Buckeye was an active member on coffeeforums before starting Buckeye, and had an early Artisan V5 fluid bed machine as well. I think he started around the same general time as Steve at MillCity.
One of the big differences between the two (afain); MillCity sells one brand of Chinese roasters and Buckeye sells multiple brands of Chinese machines. I got a bit of an inside look on this last year, helping someone self-import a Chinese coffee roaster; eye popping FOB pricing by the way.
Randy has some positive feedback on HB, on the Santoker and BC series. He claims to fire up every machine testing the overheat cutoff and if it's working properly. Nice touch!
Because the "Oro" looks like the North says nothing; in China there are knockoffs of the knockoffs. Kind of a "Wild West" you might say, where trusting some alibaba ad could turn out great or a disaster.
The best advice I can think of is to get some leads from Buckeye and call his customers, better yet bring your own greens and test drive the machine in question.
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Hankua, Thank you for the insight. That's a great Idea... I'll see if Randy can get me in touch with some Oro users. I guess my main reason for considering the Oro was the the use of a double wall drum. Seems like a good attribute. Not sure if that makes it a better option over the North though.
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I'm curious why you think a double-wall drum is a positive attribute... not trying to threadjack or start a discussion... just curious.
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Donnie
Double wall drums are a feature of some high end European machines such as Probat. Randy might have switched manufacturers on the Oro as well, at least it looks so.
The guy I was helping in Chicago was a novice and wanted a 2k machine, in the end talked him into getting a 1k. I'm not a fan of the 2k size in the realm of Chinese roasters, mostly due to price vs size. For the majority of drum roaster, users roast less than full capacity with a few exceptions (mill City 1k). My thinking is the next step up from a 1k is a machine capable of roasting 5lbs of finished coffee taking into account 15% weight loss. It gives you entry into commercial accounts which can be kind of a "bread and butter" gig.
Just took a look at the Oro and there are a lot of things I like such as: precision damper vs adjustable air fan, ribbon burners, some cast iron components. The specs have some typo as well, I'd have to communicate with him to clear them up. Randy rates his machines in pounds instead of kilo's so you have to be careful there.
If you notice the front section of the drum has a cast iron hub and ring; it needs to be faced/turned on a lathe. Could end up being fairly precise; what is the gap between the faceplate and drum? Again, fancy European roasters often have this feature.
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I'm curious why you think a double-wall drum is a positive attribute... not trying to threadjack or start a discussion... just curious.
Great question!
I think one of the reasons for the double drum is to prevent scorching. On the flip side when you make a burner adjustment, it may take longer to take effect due to the air gap. Also assume this type setup has the burners under the rotation drum.
It's something seldom seen on smaller machines, maybe because it's not necessary?
Not to mention we're value shoppers here.... ;D
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I have always roasted on cast iron drum and never have had any scorching once I got the hang of it, have never roasted on a SS drum but I have purchased coffee from a guy that did and scorching was evident. I have been looking to upgrade from a 2K to a 10K, cast Iron would be a must.
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One would think a simple baffle plate / diffuser on the bottom could avoid most scorching, as well as learning your machine too :) Cast iron has nice mass to it which helps for heat stability.
Aaron
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I'm curious why you think a double-wall drum is a positive attribute... not trying to threadjack or start a discussion... just curious.
My thinking is that the double wall distribute heat more evenly and eliminate hot spots you might get on single wall. I'm this doesn't apply to the more expensive roasters.
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I have always roasted on cast iron drum and never have had any scorching once I got the hang of it, have never roasted on a SS drum but I have purchased coffee from a guy that did and scorching was evident. I have been looking to upgrade from a 2K to a 10K, cast Iron would be a must.
There aren't many roaster lines with cast iron drums; Ozturk and Yang-Chia for example. I know the Feima/Yang-Chia dealer in Taipei, the top of the line 4K machine goes for around $10,000.
The Oro literature mentioned "cast steel" and there may be a translation issue. It looked like a stainless insert was bolted in place with the vanes welded on.
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Donnie
Double wall drums are a feature of some high end European machines such as Probat. Randy might have switched manufacturers on the Oro as well, at least it looks so.
The guy I was helping in Chicago was a novice and wanted a 2k machine, in the end talked him into getting a 1k. I'm not a fan of the 2k size in the realm of Chinese roasters, mostly due to price vs size. For the majority of drum roaster, users roast less than full capacity with a few exceptions (mill City 1k). My thinking is the next step up from a 1k is a machine capable of roasting 5lbs of finished coffee taking into account 15% weight loss. It gives you entry into commercial accounts which can be kind of a "bread and butter" gig.
Just took a look at the Oro and there are a lot of things I like such as: precision damper vs adjustable air fan, ribbon burners, some cast iron components. The specs have some typo as well, I'd have to communicate with him to clear them up. Randy rates his machines in pounds instead of kilo's so you have to be careful there.
If you notice the front section of the drum has a cast iron hub and ring; it needs to be faced/turned on a lathe. Could end up being fairly precise; what is the gap between the faceplate and drum? Again, fancy European roasters often have this feature.
Thanks... Some good points you make there. I'm a novice my self. Been roasting on an RK Drum for couple of years. It's good way to get into roasting. But want go to the next level and be able log data. The 1k range would be ideal for me.
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I use an electric Fluid Bed roaster, the Artisan 6. Can do 5 Lbs plus at a shot and is really easy to master and figure out. Being electric, the heat rate is very fast and changes happen very fast too so you don't have to worry about tweaking something then waiting 2 minutes to see if it's enough or too much. I paid 3,000 for mine, but just got the roaster body, I didn't get the chaff collector and fans etc etc because I roast pretty much outside and just let it blow, so that saved some money. For the money you are looking at putting into a roaster, this one would allow you to roast up to 5 Lbs (it can actually do about 7 if you are careful) or down to 8 oz at a shot for sample roasting. A lot cheaper too.
Aaron
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Let us know what you end up doing. :D
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Will do. Thanks for the input!
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Yeah Buckeye, MCR and AWC are all rebadged Chinese roasters, I know that was discussed earlier on in the thread. My opinion remains the same get it through Alibaba if you are considering a Chinese roaster. Going through Buckeye et. al. is simply throwing money to a middleman for absolutely no real benefit only IMO a perceived easier transaction.
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That may be true to some extent Joe, but does alibaba handle the customs, the import papers and all that stuff? Some people don't want to deal with all that garbage and are happy to throw some extra $$ to someone else to handle all the 'middle man' stuff and just deliver my roaster worry free. Here's my money, I want my roaster on my front porch.
Aaron
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As far as I know it's an online transaction Like anything else. Alibaba is like eBay in Asia. Just as you can buy Chinese stuff on Amazon and eBay. I have ordered all kinds of knock off stuff through Aliexpress and Alibaba...no customs etc. The shipper uses their freight and whatever and charges you the agreed upon frieght.
They have epacket and such for smaller items..larger items use their company until it reaches the US then it switches to DHL or USPS etc..
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Oh that should work well then. What if there is a problem with the package, are they as accommodating as ebay is as for resolution?
Aaron
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To clarify my advice is to avoid Chinese "Wild West knock off" roasters and their resellers in the US. Taiwan has some cool roasters I think add a lot of value and uniqueness. As always I have no problems recommending Used roasters in the US or Legit commercial roasters such as Ambex, Sonofresco, Artisan etc...
At the amount of these Chinese roasters coming into US for households moving up from a Behmor and planning on selling to some "friends" I think there is going to be a huge glut of these types of roasters on the Used market in the near future. No need to rush to be the first to buy the knock off.
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Oh that should work well then. What if there is a problem with the package, are they as accommodating as ebay is as for resolution?
Aaron
No, but you aren't buying this in cash. You use Paypal or a credit card and you should be covered. There was a guy a few threads down who had an issue with the MCR North roaster and his Credit card stepped in to help get the issue resolved...kinda furthering the point that the credit card companies are the real sources for resolution and they do a great job. I feel like eBay actually makes the normal processes more difficult.
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That's true there IF the transaction is covered by their protection. Sadly though, credit cards are great for the consumer but can really pork the vendor if the consumer is a lying POS. I never did understand that, the vendor gets screwed way too often, eating so called bad transactions. The company will come back two months later AFTER they initially approved the transaction and then say, oh the owner said card was stolen bla bla, and the seller is out the cash. WTF? Why don't you reimburse them, you sure charge them enough to use your crappy card.
I was kind of alluding to that, at least having a person in the US might make the process a bit easier in case of problems, but we have seen that this is not always true, you can get run through the Mill anywhere.
Aaron
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Alibaba is nothing more than just a trading platform. If you were interested in getting stuff there that is costly, I would suggest that you would get in touch with an imort broker and they'll handle all the paper work for you.
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I have two suggestions:
1. Avoid Chinese roasters.
2. If you simply cannot avoid then I would suggest that you use a credit card dont worry about an import broker. Frieght is freight and you can chat with the vendors that allow for us transactions. Again #1 is a better option.
Aaron, the credit card companies nowadays look into the situation and make a judgement based on the facts of the matter. In the past you could do a chargeback fairly easily without even a question. But they have better policies in place that protect both parties from junk. However frankly speaking i would probably err on the consumer side on anything involving a chinese product.
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Joe, Kao is correct; however some smaller and less expensive machines (Huky's) have escaped customs duties/taxes.
The 1K size needs to ship ocean freight, and there are US rules and Regs on importation. A freight forwarder should be able to handle the whole thing for somewhere between 600-800$ to your door. It's cheaper to pick it up yourself at the customs warehouse closest by.
Pricing is FOB, the one I saw was in USD, assuming they wanted it in bank funds (wire transfer).
And the 1K 2016 price was $2700 FOB, way less than the $5600 Taiwan 1K. Chinese labor and steel are cheap, plenty of closed state run industrys with machine tools; perfect for building "old school" design coffee roasters. I recently saw a video where the end user had to fix a few mistakes, and air fan speed controls have issues. (Mill City has re-designed theirs; good reason for having a damper)
The 1K Mill City and Buckeye have proven popular with the exploding Artisan coffee roasting movement happening; as starter machines. People are willing to pay the upcharge for convenience and piece of mind.
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exploding artisan movement? Sounds like a bunch of people with entrepreneurial aspirations reminds me of people buying a cheap dslr and becoming a "photographer" with a kit lens. Watch for the exploding chinese used artisan movement ;)
You described what i was suggesting although more detailed you can get it to your door if you want or you can get it cheaper at the terminal. $800 on top of the FOB price is significantly cheaper than the American resellers..even of necessary mods were required.
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800 is cheaper than American resellers. Of course, they need to profit too. How much is their time and labor worth? Not much to you obviously because you already know the drill, and how shipping works etc etc, but to others who do not have the knowledge you have, it apparently is worth that much. Now throw in the fact that many of them have the product ready to ship in a day or two, the person gets it a week later, versus possibly having to wait a few months for it to get here from china. What is that convenience worth to them? With today's I want it NOW! generation, yep, the market is there for higher priced you can get it NOW stuff, and they don't care that it cost more.
You could also get a car cheaper by flying up to the toyota manufacturing plant and driving it home yourself, but many people would rather goto the local dealer... wow what's wrong with them? Don't they know they can get it cheaper that way?
Aaron
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Valid points. Last i saw you have to wait at least a month for these resellers as well. Supposedly the benefit is that they've gone over the roaster before they ship it to you or your freight terminal, but as we have seen in the other thread that doesn't always happen well. Buying used makes sense in cars too.
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Hey, Pssst... I have a 12 Year old Saturn I'll sell you real cheap, it's used so it's a deal for you. I'll trade even up for your 4k roaster :D
Aaron
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More like drive it off the lot and sell me your 12k mile car for a huge discount. I'll let you be the sucker that buys the new car ;)
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Artisan roasteries or small batch roasters are popping up all over the place, according to the news feeds I follow. I'd say a majority are using American built machines, but Mill City does have a slice of the pie.
Starting up one of these ventures is relatively low cost and can begin in a home or garage. Although it's a food product, there's no spoilage, refrigeration needed, or insects to worry about. Fresh roasted coffee tastes way better then stale coffee, and almost nobody is going to ask "what brand of coffee roaster do you use".
In the realm of the OP's general question, or at least my guess is: "how do the lower price Chinese 1K roasters compare, including the vendors".
Mill City's team deserves a lot of credit for what they've accomplished in a short period of time; including making improvements to the product line. That being said, Buckeye's roasters deserve a hard look despite they're hokey web site. Your buying a coffee roaster not a fashion accessory and need to compare feature/specifications.
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Don't forget adventures with coffee. I'm not a fan of the Chinese roasters and I'm definitely not a fan of Mill City (mainly its main people) so if this turns into a promotion in any way for spamming histrionic Steve and his buddies this thread will go "poof". Not that you are doing that Hank but just a warning on where i stand with those clowns. Buckeye and AWC are cool with me as they never threw rocks at us.
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Joe, I'm not a Mill City fanboy either, just ask Steve. LOL
Not sure who AWC is, the roaster looks like a DY. (Which I have the PDF with pricing from 2016)
And have messaged with them concerning the sale last year. There is a YouTube video from an owner from NZ pointing out some of the minor flaws he had to correct, no problem if your handy or have friends with a lathe.
One of my issue with Chinese coffee roasters has do with politics and trade policy. Other thing are some design flaws and mistakes that can ship uncorrected.
My connections are in Taiwan, specifically with the Yang-Chia machines manufactured in Taichung. I'm on good terms with the Dealer in Taipei, and can help any member who might want to spend more money on a quality built roaster from a reputable builder/dealer. It would need to be self imported.
There's another Taiwan brand machine that's considerably more expensive than Yang-Chia; Kapok in Kaohsiung. One of our members has the 500g machine; self imported.
Circling back to the North, that's what everything else in it's price range gets compared to.
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The case with Chinese roasters is basically "you get what you pay for". There are some products out there that are good but you'd have to sniff them out from the thousands of offerings there. Santoker is a pretty good roaster for it's price.
+1 on the Yang-Chia. A roaster friend on another island, has two of those and swears by it. Good value for it's price.
I have a chinese made roaster that looks like a clone of a proaster. It's not the best but I have learned to live around it's quirks.
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Buckeye's Oro also looks like a clone of a Proaster, and he's selling Santoker as well. The other Chinese roaster I'd like to see is the HB; think Crop to Cup is re-branding them, just a guess. The guys behind HB are coffee roasters themselves; a big plus.
The guy in Chicago shopped around and found a FF who picked up the machine at the factory and delivered it to his home; and handled all the paperwork. I used a FF (freight forwarder) and a local customs broker who treated me right. She also explained how it all takes place, de-mystified the process. They didn't tell me about every charge, like the customs warehouse charge for instance; there's some "nickel and dime" stuff that occurs.
Chicago guy saved around $1500 overall on the roaster, haven't heard back on how it's working out however.
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That is another advantage possibly for going through a local person, if they get say 10 of the things, the price per piece to ship my be a lot cheaper than just doing one. It's like when shipping bags of coffee, it goes in stages sort of, it's all by pallet size / height.
Aaron
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That is another advantage possibly for going through a local person, if they get say 10 of the things, the price per piece to ship my be a lot cheaper than just doing one. It's like when shipping bags of coffee, it goes in stages sort of, it's all by pallet size / height.
Aaron
Not only that, if the manufacturer (wherever it is) knows the state-side reseller is going to continue placing orders, chances are the machines will be built correctly.
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The case with Chinese roasters is basically "you get what you pay for". There are some products out there that are good but you'd have to sniff them out from the thousands of offerings there. Santoker is a pretty good roaster for it's price.
+1 on the Yang-Chia. A roaster friend on another island, has two of those and swears by it. Good value for it's price.
I have a chinese made roaster that looks like a clone of a proaster. It's not the best but I have learned to live around it's quirks.
Yes i agree to a point and I would suspect in roasters more so. However in my anacdotal evidence in my own purchases. You don't always get what you pay for, and sometimes you can pay a premium and get crap, sometimes you pay way less and get an exceptional knock off. All the more reason that if i was looking to save money which is the whole point of buying a chinese roaster then i wouldn't buy from a US seller. If i was looking to get a good product for a good price i would go Taiwan roasters or Turkey etc... and if i was opening a shop i wouldn't look to anything that has excessive risks..I would buy a used well known roaster.
1. Saving money buying chinese- buy from china direct.
2. Good product good price- Taiwan, turkey,etc.
3. Starting a business- buy Ambex, probat, etc...
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I noticed that the available logo for this machine (which looks almost identical to the north to me) shows Buckeye and Arizona roasters (1 in the same?)
Buckeye roaster? (https://coffeeroaster.en.alibaba.com/product/60553884935-222354300/small_home_coffee_roaster_machine_1kg_2_2lb_roasts_hot_air_coffea_roster.html?spm=a2700.8304367.0.0.CVWsVu)
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Buckeye's Oro also looks like a clone of a Proaster, and he's selling Santoker as well. The other Chinese roaster I'd like to see is the HB; think Crop to Cup is re-branding them, just a guess. The guys behind HB are coffee roasters themselves; a big plus.
Is that the arc roaster? That thing looks pretty spiffy. Small footprint 800g
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Yeah I think the Arc is they're version of the HB-M3. Set up for 110v and with some other unnamed changes. Comparing the photos is how I've come to that conclusion. Of course a phone call would clear that up, hopefully.
I went over my old emails and found some info about Buckeye. Chicago guy says he was importing Dongyi and Blueking; Blueking is also the 300g. Bideli/Dalian Amazon looks to be the maker of the "Oro". The one that looks like the the North 1K is also made by Dongyi and Blueking, and possibly others. Knock-off's of the knock-off's? Typical Chinese rip off trade practice, and they have no qualms doing it to themselves. (Sorry about the political diversion)
Was also told Randy was "transparent" about the machines; which I interpreted to mean disclosing who his China suppliers are. Another thing you can research is thru a shipping database such as panjiva or similar, which can show import shipments to the US.
One thing the OP needs to be aware of, some of the 1K Chinese roasters are downsized 2k's. You get an added benefit here, so it's wise to compare drum thickness and dimensions (diameter x length). The reverse of that is roasting 200 or 300 grams, you're using ET as the BT probe probable is above the bean mass.
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Right. If you're getting a chinese made roaster from a US seller, there's virtually no savings to be made. The challenge there though is finding where to buy it in China.
I just checked and yes the Oro is the same roaster that I have. I just recently discovered that it had a double walled drum so you really need to preheat it much longer. I've always wondered why I never had any tipping issues whatsoever.
cheers!
Joseph
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Right. If you're getting a chinese made roaster from a US seller, there's virtually no savings to be made. The challenge there though is finding where to buy it in China.
I just checked and yes the Oro is the same roaster that I have. I just recently discovered that it had a double walled drum so you really need to preheat it much longer. I've always wondered why I never had any tipping issues whatsoever.
cheers!
Joseph
Joseph, What are the pros and cons of your roaster? is it well built? How long have you had it?
Thanks
Donnie
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Yeah I think the Arc is they're version of the HB-M3. Set up for 110v and with some other unnamed changes. Comparing the photos is how I've come to that conclusion. Of course a phone call would clear that up, hopefully.
I went over my old emails and found some info about Buckeye. Chicago guy says he was importing Dongyi and Blueking; Blueking is also the 300g. Bideli/Dalian Amazon looks to be the maker of the "Oro". The one that looks like the the North 1K is also made by Dongyi and Blueking, and possibly others. Knock-off's of the knock-off's? Typical Chinese rip off trade practice, and they have no qualms doing it to themselves. (Sorry about the political diversion)
Was also told Randy was "transparent" about the machines; which I interpreted to mean disclosing who his China suppliers are. Another thing you can research is thru a shipping database such as panjiva or similar, which can show import shipments to the US.
One thing the OP needs to be aware of, some of the 1K Chinese roasters are downsized 2k's. You get an added benefit here, so it's wise to compare drum thickness and dimensions (diameter x length). The reverse of that is roasting 200 or 300 grams, you're using ET as the BT probe probable is above the bean mass.
Randy claims the Oro 2.5 can roast batches from 4oz. to 3lbs. I'll have to question him on whether the BT probe is in the mass on the small batch. The Oro actually says Bideli right on the side.
Randy him self has a lot positive feed back for his customer service. sounds like he backs what he is selling.
I'm not in a hurry so I'm keeping my option open. Also browsing for used as well.
I appreciate all the input.
Donnie
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Hi Donnie,
I have the Bideli (Oro) 2kg. Which is the 2.5k. It can roast as little as 500g to as much as 2.4kg green beans but it's a matter of knowing your roaster. I can only roast the 500g sample roasts at the first roast but I can no longer do that later on as the drum already has that much potential energy. Same goes for the 2.4kg load, you can only do it as one of the last roasts for the day.
Pros:
Double walled drum - I rarely get any tipping or scorched issues with it.
Airflow control - great air control
BT - it automatically shuts off gas flow when it reaches the temp limit and switches it back on when it starts going 10deg below the limit (e.g. limit is 250C, restarts when it goes below 240C)
Looks - really looks good especially in rose gold color
Cons:
Chaff Cyclone - badly designed joint from the cone to the collection box as dust constantly spews out of it and the drawer has no lock.
Double walled drum - takes a while for the drum to get really heated up.
Burner - seems a bit underpowered but I realized that the problem really was that I had a double walled drum. It wasn't ramping up as much as I wanted to.
Gas control valve - the valve they used is a bit weird! but I've learned to live with it. If i used a standard LPG regulator, it would only go up to 1.2kPa. i had to use a variable regulator to make it go higher.
ET probe - i would have wanted it to be inside the drum open space, not at the back of the drum where the air is flowing through.
Beans release - Really bad design. Caused many accidental releases.