Green Coffee Buying Club
Coffee Discussion boards => Hardware & Equipment => Topic started by: Alaroast on February 09, 2017, 09:59:36 AM
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So I've been on the hunt for a while for a good used prosumer-level espresso machine. If I was closer to a mountain on the west coast, I'd be scooping up the deal on that Elektra that's been offered on this site. Anyways, I found a used Bricoletta plumbed in version with rotary pump locally for sale at a really good price and plan on driving to go see it in the next day or so. It's 12 years old and I will surely pop the hood to see what is looks like inside. Parts are readily available from 1st line for good price. There were some really good reviews of the machine on home barista but were a little dated so not much recent info on reliability. Has anybody had experience with this machine?
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I'm glad you found a nice used Fiorenzata Bricoletta. No, I have no experience with a Fiorenzata Bricoletta. I do know it has an E61 group. I do have experience with an Isomac Tea ll. This also is an E61 group. That in itself says a lot for the quality of the machine. You will get great espresso shots with it and you will be able to steam and pull shots at the same time.
You say that there were some really good reviews on Home Barista, but they were a little dated. Your machine is 12 years old. In my mind, those reviews directly speak to the quality of your "potential new espresso machine".
I'd say grab it. It will outlast you, should you decide to keep it that long.
My 2¢ worth.
:)
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Yes, I think I will grab it, he's asking 525 OBO so even if it needs a little work, not much invested initially. He said he bought it at an auction of restaurant equipment and from the pics, in good shape externally but he didn't realize it had to be plumbed in so he's selling it. Would the rotary pump be able to pull water from a container to try it out or would line need to be pressurized? Also from the label, it's 110V, 2100 watts so its a pretty hefty machine. I do have 20 amp breakers in my kitchen so should be good to go there and am planning on tee off of my ice maker line for fridge to filter and then to machine.
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I believe you can draw water with the internal pump, but it will stress it, and it's not ideal. A Flo-Jet is your best bet.
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I believe you can draw water with the internal pump, but it will stress it, and it's not ideal. A Flo-Jet is your best bet.
Yeah, I might just be better off waiting until I can plumb it properly before trying it out. The owner doesn't have a way to plumb it and I'm also concerned that he said when he bought it he turned it on to see if it works and probably ran it without water for a short time.
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I've seen Flo-jet systems for mobile applications where the machine was hooked to water jugs just in case that may be an option for you.
I don't have experience with that machine but I know that my Livia has water sensors which cause the pump to quit if the water level gets too low. The heater won't cycle if there isn't enough water either. Maybe similar system(s) are on that machine; I'd think they would be pretty common.
Just because there aren't current reviews doesn't mean the historic reviews are irrelevant. New machines have been introduced and distributors/seller are often involved with some of the more popular websites so these get chatter/sales instead of other machines. I don't think there have been any recent reviews on my rig for many, many years but it's still going strong after 12-13 years of daily use. And I've had virtually no problems.
I would check to make sure you can get things like shower screens, grouphead gaskets, water and steam valve replacement kits (o-rings, etc) as these are the normal wear items/ replacement parts. There are only one or two places for me to get things but they are available and while not Amazon priced, they are reasonable given the lifespan.
Make sure you have a great grinder to go with it and you'll have a solid setup for a long time.
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So I went ahead with this machine even though the pump would not come on, only a click. Based on what I saw after looking inside, I figured this one might be an easy fix. Got it home and separated the pump from the motor and the shaft on the pump would not turn but motor came on fine. Took a wrench to flat on shaft and tried to rotate and it was tight but broke it loose and reassembled. Now pump/motor work fine. Stuck water supply line in a jug of water and turned it on and it filled the hx with no problem. Actually think its overfilling since water is sputtering out of the vacuum breaker. Also the relief valve has also spewed a few times. I'm thinking the boiler is overfilling because when I pulled out the vacuum breaker to inspect and clean it, water was visible almost to top of hole. I also pulled the water level sensor to see if it was scaled up but it looked pretty clean. What would cause the overfilling and subsequent over pressurizing once up to full heat? Also,when activating the brew head lever, pressure on gauge shoots up in the red zone on gauge and relief valve activates. Sorry for the long ramble but this may hit a familiar note with someone. Should I start by pulling some descaler through the machine and let it set for a while and flush?
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Just a thought, but if you're using bottled water, it may have gone through reverse osmosis prior to bottling, which removes most, if not all mineral content. The water level sensors need some mineral content to function properly. I use bottled for mine, but add back in a minor amount of minerals to keep flavor at an optimum and prevent the boiler from overfilling.
Chris
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You could just put a tiny bit of baking soda in the water. A 'tiny' amount, or a teensy pinch of salt. That would bring your conductivity back up. For those who are into the Alkaline kick, the B soda satisfies that fad as well.
Aaron
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Yeah, my first attempt to check out the pump was with a bottle of distilled water I picked up at the store, probably a no-no. Then I just went with filtered water from home (3 cartridge system) so its probably okay. Right now I'm in the process of running descaler through the tank and plumbing. Pulled the mushroom from the top of the brew group and the scale there wasn't too bad so maybe this machine has hope...more to come.
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Update on my progress or lack thereof. Descale went well and waste water was only slightly greenish. Flushed with about 2 gallons of filtered water. Disassembled the group, cleaned it and reassembled. Tried brewing an espresso and got hardly any flow from portafilter and watched gauge go down and start climbing until tank overpressurized and blew pressure valve. Barely any espresso in cup. Don't see much need in going further until I can understand what is going on. Is the pstat bad? Is it "okay" to temporarily run this machine off a jug of water until I plumb it in and is this causing my problems? Machine steams fine and has plenty of hot water from water outlet. Any help appreciated
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Are you certain the water level sensor is actually working. You said it looks clean, but the symptoms tell me it's not functioning properly.
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No, not certain. Not sure if there is any test to check it out. I did disconnect it while descaling in order to completely fill boiler but not sure if that trick worked. Would a bad level sensor cause low pressure at brew head and pressure valve to release? I'm a newby to the HX machine scene so thanks for the help.
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Are you certain the water level sensor is actually working. You said it looks clean, but the symptoms tell me it's not functioning properly.
So I did test the level sensor by disconnecting it while machine was powered on. When I did, boiler started filling and then I touched the wire back to the terminal and pump cycled off. Removed wire and pump cycled back on. Sensor working. Played around a little more last night but not getting enough pressure at group to pull a shot but pressure in boiler increases to overpressure point if lever left up because water continues to be added to boiler. Only a slight trickle of espresso in cup. Left machine on for over an hour and it comes up to temp and holds pressure, steams good, and dispenses hot water like it should. I also played around with pump pressure adjustment by increasing by half and then full turn CW but no noticeable difference at group. May do some more intrusive disassembly tonight to check for blockages. Thoughts?
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That's just weird that the water level sensor works, but somehow lets too much water into the boiler.
As for the group, it may not be a pressure issue, but a flow/volume issue. Check the lines from the boiler to the group.
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That's just weird that the water level sensor works, but somehow lets too much water into the boiler.
As for the group, it may not be a pressure issue, but a flow/volume issue. Check the lines from the boiler to the group.
Yep, learning a little more about the mechanics of hx which I hope is not leaking into the boiler. From what I've been able to find on the forums, if hx leaks into boiler tank that could be the cause of overfill but not sure why sensor wouldn't compensate for that. Looks like the group is fed from a separate line from the pump that flows through the hx. Gonna disconnect all lines to tank to see if there are any restrictions.
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Bad news from shop today, the hx is leaking into the boiler causing the problem. Can get a new boiler/hx for 265 shipped...more to come.
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Bad news from shop today, the hx is leaking into the boiler causing the problem. Can get a new boiler/hx for 265 shipped...more to come.
Sorry to hear that! On the other hand, you now know what it is.
:)
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Bad news from shop today, the hx is leaking into the boiler causing the problem. Can get a new boiler/hx for 265 shipped...more to come.
should have got the Elektra... But the boiler on the Elektra was $800 to replace, I got mine from a spare for free. So at least the cost is cheaper.
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Bad news from shop today, the hx is leaking into the boiler causing the problem. Can get a new boiler/hx for 265 shipped...more to come.
should have got the Elektra... But the boiler on the Elektra was $800 to replace, I got mine from a spare for free. So at least the cost is cheaper.
Yeah, that Electra was very tempting but just too far away. After pulling the boiler, I visually confirmed the problem by looking through heating element hole. There was a small crack about 3/8" long in the HX along with a small bulge in that area of the HX. Maybe this machine was left in freezing conditions? Anything else that may have caused it to rupture? I have no previous history on this machine.
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Bad news from shop today, the hx is leaking into the boiler causing the problem. Can get a new boiler/hx for 265 shipped...more to come.
should have got the Elektra... But the boiler on the Elektra was $800 to replace, I got mine from a spare for free. So at least the cost is cheaper.
Yeah, that Electra was very tempting but just too far away. After pulling the boiler, I visually confirmed the problem by looking through heating element hole. There was a small crack about 3/8" long in the HX along with a small bulge in that area of the HX. Maybe this machine was left in freezing conditions? Anything else that may have caused it to rupture? I have no previous history on this machine.
Hmm ... maybe it was used heavily?
???
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Here is a picture of the crack.
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Wow! Looks like a blaring crack.
:o
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Duct tape to the rescue!
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Duct tape to the rescue!
Hmm, that may actually work! I wonder how long it would hold up? On the other hand, that is made out of aluminum, is it not?
???
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Jb weld. Hahaha. You could take it to a welder but i bet the metal is compromised
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Jb weld. Hahaha. You could take it to a welder but i bet the metal is compromised
Good point!
:)
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The orientation and bulge around that crack are highly suggestive of freezing. Good that you ordered a new boiler.
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The orientation and bulge around that crack are highly suggestive of freezing. Good that you ordered a new boiler.
Agreed! Better to start off new.
:)
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New boiler installed but now I think pump is bad. Tried to pull a shot and all I got was a dribble. Attached gauge to portafilter and only achieved about 2.7bar (40psi). Pump is filling boiler okay but doesn't seem to be able to generate enough pressure at group. Tried adjusting pump pressure using adjustment screw on pump but no change. Verified no blockages in all plumbing and valves in group and all was clear. Do I now need a new pump?
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Do you have a Vibration Pump or a Rotary Vane Pump? Or, should I say, are you switching one for another?
http://www.1st-line.com/store/pc/Vibration-Pump-vs-Rotary-Vane-Pump-d51.htm (http://www.1st-line.com/store/pc/Vibration-Pump-vs-Rotary-Vane-Pump-d51.htm)
:)
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Do you have a Vibration Pump or a Rotary Vane Pump? Or, should I say, are you switching one for another?
[url]http://www.1st-line.com/store/pc/Vibration-Pump-vs-Rotary-Vane-Pump-d51.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.1st-line.com/store/pc/Vibration-Pump-vs-Rotary-Vane-Pump-d51.htm[/url])
:)
I have a Procon Series 1 rotary pump. I ordered a new one today. Hopefully this will be the fix. The pump was frozen up when I got the machine. I'm not switching pump types, staying with rotary.
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Do you have a Vibration Pump or a Rotary Vane Pump? Or, should I say, are you switching one for another?
[url]http://www.1st-line.com/store/pc/Vibration-Pump-vs-Rotary-Vane-Pump-d51.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.1st-line.com/store/pc/Vibration-Pump-vs-Rotary-Vane-Pump-d51.htm[/url])
:)
I have a Procon Series 1 rotary pump. I ordered a new one today. Hopefully this will be the fix. The pump was frozen up when I got the machine. I'm not switching pump types, staying with rotary.
Sounds good.
I can't wait to see your new machine in operation.
:)
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This thread continues to grow, thanks everyone for bearing with me through this learning process. ;)
I installed a new pump. Tried adjusting pump to 9 bar (130 psi) using a portafilter mounted gauge. I can only get it up to about 7 bar (100 psi) before the motor starts stalling. I am still running from a jug at this point because I wanted to ensure machine was going to work out before working on plumbing. From what I've read, some machines have no problem with running from a jug while others do. Do you think that if this machine is plumbed in to water source (approx. 45-50 psi or 3 bar), this will bring brewhead pressure to about 9 bar?
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The saga continues...new boiler, new pump, plumbed in with pressure regulator adjusted to 30 PSI, pump pressure adjusted to 9 bar and thought all was well. Now water is seeping from vacuum breaker while machine is off. I'm guessing fill valve/solenoid may be bad. I'll probably disassemble the valve to check for blockage and check condition. Any thoughts on what to look for at this point?
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The saga continues...new boiler, new pump, plumbed in with pressure regulator adjusted to 30 PSI, pump pressure adjusted to 9 bar and thought all was well. Now water is seeping from vacuum breaker while machine is off. I'm guessing fill valve/solenoid may be bad. I'll probably disassemble the valve to check for blockage and check condition. Any thoughts on what to look for at this point?
I like that you are approaching this methodically. Unfortunately, I cannot help you with your question as I have never went down this deep in the rabbit hole fixing an espresso machine.
Having said that, I have faith in your abilities. I'm sure you will uncover the root of the problem. In doing this exercise you will be a whole lot knowledgeable on the hardware that your machine has.
;)
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Any thoughts on what to look for at this point?
A winning lottery ticket?
I have my pressure regulator set to 2 bar, so it pre-infuses at that level. Like mp, I'm no expert, but don't think you need 30psi going into your pump.
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Any thoughts on what to look for at this point?
A winning lottery ticket?
I have my pressure regulator set to 2 bar, so it pre-infuses at that level. Like mp, I'm no expert, but don't think you need 30psi going into your pump.
A little confused by this; 2 bar is equal to 29 PSI which is close to what I have my pressure regulator set at which is what goes into my pump. Could you clarify? I'm still new at this. ;)
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My bad. I overlooked the psi/bar thing.
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Just an update to closer this thing out or for those interested. Finally got my machine back from the shop. The fill valve/solenoid was leaking which is what I suspected. New one installed and all is well. Now on to enjoying some good espresso :)
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I really think you need pictures and video to properly close out this thread :)
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I really think you need pictures and video to properly close out this thread :)
Agree!
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Roger that ;D Consider it done. I'll work that soon. Thanks for all the help and suggestions!
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Not sure how to upload a video. Here is my current set up.