Green Coffee Buying Club

Coffee Discussion boards => Hardware & Equipment => Topic started by: stevea on May 23, 2017, 06:56:45 PM

Title: SCAA Certified Home Brewers ...
Post by: stevea on May 23, 2017, 06:56:45 PM
http://www.scaa.org/?page=cert2 (http://www.scaa.org/?page=cert2)

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At this time, current SCAA Certified Home Brewers are:

Technivorm Moccamaster
Behmor Connected Brewer or Behmor Connected Coffee Brew System
KitchenAid Coffee Maker KCM0802
KitchenAid Pour Over Coffee Brewer (model KCM0801OB)
Bonavita Coffee Maker (model BV1900TS)
Bonavita BV1900TD 8-Cup Digital Coffee Brewer
OXO On 9-Cup Coffee Maker
OXO On 12-Cup Coffee Maker
Wilfa Precision Coffee Maker
BUNN 10-Cup Programmable Coffeemaker
Behmor Brazen Connected 8 Cup Coffee Maker
Cuisinart PurePrecisionâ„¢ Pour Over Coffee Brewer



That's a pretty long list compared to previous years.  Anyone (else) wanna comment,
Title: Re: SCAA Certified Home Brewers ...
Post by: stevea on June 01, 2017, 01:33:20 AM
OK - when I posted that I was had my trigger finger on a great price for a moccamaster, but decided to 'pass'.   I've used one in the past and they feel like an erector set, and a bit fussy.

I really liked the (melitta) BonaVita, but the rather small, high power heating element requires constant de-scaling, else the unit fails.  I went thru two of them a couple years ago.  Also it's a little small for my use.

I really like the Oxo products I have around the kitchen; these guys really pay attention to design detail.  OTOH their first foray into coffee makings appears to have some QA problems (read the low-ranking amazon reviews).  I'll want to wait for their next model.

Behmor - I'm not impressed w/ the design, nor the reliability of their previous products (based on 2nd hand reports).

Wilfa Precision - overpriced euro trash IMO.  I'm sure it makes good coffee.  Looks like tool for erectile dysfunction.   Costs far too much.  I'll wager you won't find parts in a couple years.

KitchenAid - both models get poor ratings, glass carafe is a deal-killer for me.

Cuisinart - really ?   After decades of Mr.Coffee knock-offs are they making a good brewer ?  Apparently so, but reports are the thermal carafe isn't properly insulated.  Cools w/in an hour.

Bunn - a serious mfgr & a real possibility.  The 'programmable' is glass carafe only AFAICT only sold thru Wm.Sonoma (a boutique brewer IMO).

==

How friggin' hard is it to make a 10cup brewer with good thermal carafe that can tolerate a 'loose' descaling program ?


Title: Re: SCAA Certified Home Brewers ...
Post by: Ascholten on June 01, 2017, 02:23:12 AM
For what its worth the Bodum electric vac pot performs just as well if not better than many of those TBH.
I wonder what criteria they used to approve a pot?

Aaron
Title: Re: SCAA Certified Home Brewers ...
Post by: CrackedBean on June 01, 2017, 08:23:53 AM
What about other machines that brew at proper temperatures but have not applied for SCAA Certification? I do not know which brewers those are, but I have read over the years about various drip machines which claim to brew a good cup at proper temps/extraction times but are not certified. Years ago I had a Capresso which is no longer made but it claimed to brew in the proper temperature range. I never measured the temperature of the coffee but it made much better coffee than the big box store brewer it replaced.
Title: Re: SCAA Certified Home Brewers ...
Post by: Ascholten on June 01, 2017, 12:56:05 PM
That's the thing, there may be plenty of capable brewers out there but the makers decided not to pay the snobbery fee for a 'grand poobah snobby snob' certification button to put on their label.  Brew temp is only part of the equation to a good cup of coffee.  What about extraction time?  A pot that squirts a piss hole through the center of the ground mass is not making a good cup and not fully extracting all the ground flavor.  Neither IMO is a pot with a wide open bottom where the water is in-out with no hang time to get the goods out of the beans.  This is one thing I like with my technivorn, I can close it off or at least part way down to hold water in there to ensure a full immersion and much better chance at extraction than some pots where it just runs right through.  Even then, grounds that fill up, flood, sit a minute or three then drain down, don't extract as good as the ones in the center where the water is constantly passing them by and extracting on the fly.

What I like to do with my TV is close it off, let it fill up with water, use a spoon stir the grounds up, open spout, let it drain, close off, fill, stir grounds up, do this two or three times during a brew and I find the coffee is extremely rich and flavorful.  It makes a good cup if I can resist the urge to nerd out and play with the pot during brewing, but tinkering will yield a much better cup in my opinion.

I have also used a commercial bunn pot at work, not sure the brand but I have it tweaked to spit out 199 degree water, and it does a pretty knock up job at making coffee too.

Aaron
Title: Re: SCAA Certified Home Brewers ...
Post by: ptrmorton on June 01, 2017, 01:03:22 PM

How friggin' hard is it to make a 10cup brewer with good thermal carafe that can tolerate a 'loose' descaling program ?


I've owned a Bonavita bv1900ts for 17 months.  It was descaled once, but didn't seem to make any difference so I haven't done it in about a year.  Great coffee, very good metal thermal carafe which holds 59 oz of coffee.  It says it is a 8 cup brewer, but getting it to brew almost 10 just takes a bit of ingenuity.  $120 almost everywhere.
Title: Re: SCAA Certified Home Brewers ...
Post by: Ascholten on June 01, 2017, 01:15:42 PM
I have a bodum santos electric vac pot.  Had it for hell probably 8 years now.  Still running strong.
Here's the thing though, Id try to keep it clean but not really super descaling it.
At this point, descaling would be a death sentence.
A few years ago I tried to clean it out and it started leaking around the bottom seal around the heating element,  luckily after about ten pots, the scale sort of reformed and re sealed the pot.  It runs great, works fine and a little scale built up on the bottom is not hurting really.  I understand you don't want your pot looking like mammoth caves with stalagmites growing in it but a little scale wont hurt a think I would not think.

Aaron
Title: Re: SCAA Certified Home Brewers ...
Post by: Badam on June 01, 2017, 03:15:33 PM
I had a Bunn Brewer for 5 years and liked it a lot until the thermal fuse blew and I decided it was time for a different machine. It went through quite a few pots of coffee and quite a few people who had no clue what they were doing (overfilled grounds, dumped water everywhere, even had one person pour brewed coffee back in the machine).

I upgraded to a Bloomfield, it isn't on the list, but it is a much better machine, and it better be for more than double the price tag. It has an adjustable thermostat where I can control the temperature of water coming out and a much bigger heating element.

Like Aaron said, there are much better brewers that aren't on the list, simply because they don't care about the fancy label. I'd look to a commercial brewer if you want something most reliable. I believe Joe negotiated a Newco discount for the club that is probably one of the cheaper routes if you're in the market for commercial.
Title: Re: SCAA Certified Home Brewers ...
Post by: Ascholten on June 01, 2017, 03:56:21 PM
Do  not ask me for a model number I have no clue, but when i was in the navy, the bunn commercials, would occasionally crap out and we'd (we being me, an electrician / turbine tech) would have to fix it.  They had two adjustable thermostats and one non settable, the safety cutout.  I think top temp was like 205 or something, it was a general T stat that could easily be replaced.  So yes, the commercial ones are made for a ton of coffee,  horrible abuse by idiots, and easy to fix.  It might be a bit expensive but they last for years.  Ours probably had 25 pots a day through it (it was the engineering departments coffee pot) and really NO descaling or any TLC (remember were talking squids ruinning it here :D)

Aaron
Title: Re: SCAA Certified Home Brewers ...
Post by: brianmch on June 21, 2017, 08:24:12 AM
Do any of you have the OXO Brain? I know Joe is gearing up to review one shortly but looking for comments from the peanut gallery.

I got a Chemex Ottomatic a couple years ago as a gift.  Temp is slightly low and I don't know how to ramp it up any.  I have taken it apart but don't know what the thermostat looks like. 

It has good aesthetics and easy to use. 

It doesn't do too well with less than a 5 cup batch (30 grams of grounds).  Does a great job with larger batches and flash brew. 

They didn't pay for the SCAA certification.
Title: Re: SCAA Certified Home Brewers ...
Post by: stevea on August 15, 2017, 12:27:38 PM
That's the thing, there may be plenty of capable brewers out there but the makers decided not to pay the snobbery fee for a 'grand poobah snobby snob' certification button to put on their label....

Agreed, but there are EVEN MORE brewers that can't hit the time & temp needed (I've owned several over the years, even good brands).   A lot of basic brewers out there can't even hold enough grounds to make a full pot !

FWIW I burned through two bonvitas in a couple years so I won't be buying a third.  The too-small heating element cakes-over deep w/ scale, making descaling problematic, then it overheats & dies.  I did an autopsy on the last one after a good hard descaling and it still had lots of stone (and my water isn't THAT hard).
Title: Re: SCAA Certified Home Brewers ...
Post by: stevea on August 15, 2017, 12:34:40 PM
I was about to pull the trigger on the OXO Brain ON , but came across this ...

Breville Precision brewer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3l61I1FDD0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3l61I1FDD0)

Seems like a really flexible unit for ~$300-ish (rumored price)
OTOH I've always looked askance at Breville - Can a toaster/juice company really make good coffee gear ?
Anyone got experience w/ Breville ?
Title: Re: SCAA Certified Home Brewers ...
Post by: ptrmorton on August 15, 2017, 02:44:56 PM
I was about to pull the trigger on the OXO Brain ON , but came across this ...

Breville Precision brewer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3l61I1FDD0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3l61I1FDD0)

Seems like a really flexible unit for ~$300-ish (rumored price)
OTOH I've always looked askance at Breville - Can a toaster/juice company really make good coffee gear ?
Anyone got experience w/ Breville ?


Wow.  That is pretty amazing.  I'll be interested in hearing how the coffee tastes, but it tics a lot of boxes.  My concern would be longevity given the machines complexity, but thanks for sharing stevea.
Title: Re: SCAA Certified Home Brewers ...
Post by: Badam on August 15, 2017, 03:28:26 PM
I was about to pull the trigger on the OXO Brain ON , but came across this ...

Breville Precision brewer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3l61I1FDD0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3l61I1FDD0)

Seems like a really flexible unit for ~$300-ish (rumored price)
OTOH I've always looked askance at Breville - Can a toaster/juice company really make good coffee gear ?
Anyone got experience w/ Breville ?

I have had their smart grinder for almost 6 years now. It has been a workhorse for me. I was always concerned about reliability, but I have not had any issues yet.

In that price range, you are looking at a Technivorm though, which many say is tops even if it doesn't have the extra features.
Title: Re: SCAA Certified Home Brewers ...
Post by: Ascholten on August 15, 2017, 03:29:29 PM
Give it a try Steve, that is the only way you will know for sure.
SCAA does not guarantee a good brewer, just that they paid for the politics in the coffee world to be part of the 'good ole boys gang'.
There are a number of awesome brewers who are not a member of the nose up group.

Aaron.
Title: Re: SCAA Certified Home Brewers ...
Post by: stevea on August 16, 2017, 09:02:17 AM
...

I have had their smart grinder for almost 6 years now. It has been a workhorse for me. I was always concerned about reliability, but I have not had any issues yet.

In that price range, you are looking at a Technivorm though, which many say is tops even if it doesn't have the extra features.


I used MoccaMaster for most of a year.  It's got the minimalist design ethic down, but it just feels like a bag of parts, a lego set.  It's good, wholesome, but very basic.   I haven't done a side-by-side but I don't think  the TV makes any better coffee than the BonaVitas I used, for example.

The Breville Precision is in a different class, has lotsa features & capabilities, including a pump, adjustable temps but also lotsa electronics.  Well electronics & steam/water have a way of not playing well together, so I'd prefer to read a couple critical reviews before taking the plunge.  Breville took top place on a review of the carafe heat retention.


Give it a try Steve, that is the only way you will know for sure.


Not on the market yet.

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SCAA does not guarantee a good brewer, just that they paid for the politics in the coffee world to be part of the 'good ole boys gang'.


Way too cynical Aaron.
http://www.scaa.org/?page=cert2 (http://www.scaa.org/?page=cert2)
There is an $1800 and the mfgr has to submit 5 to 10  units for evaluation.

Assuming the mfgr is submitting production units, the test assures the device can hold enough grounds (unbelievable but a lot of makers fail that), hits proper water temps, and brews for an acceptable amount of time, extracts enough solids, and gets some reasonably uniform extraction from the grounds.   Also the unit-to-unit variation can't be excessive.   That  really is 95% of the challenge in making a good cup.

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There are a number of awesome brewers who are not a member of the nose up group.


Which ones ?  Name some names please.

I see, for example, Bunn only has one model (w/ a glass carafe) SCAA approved.  Based on history we can assume Bunn is making good consistent units w/ proper capacity & time, and so long as the unit has adjustable temps I wouldn't hesitate to buy a Bunn.  Joe mentioned Newco in another thread - abandoned the consumer market - makes them a dicey choice.  I've had hit & miss results from Capresso hitting temps.  There may be a lot of great non-SCAA brewers, but I'll wager there are a lot more losers.



Title: Re: SCAA Certified Home Brewers ...
Post by: Ascholten on August 16, 2017, 01:09:34 PM
Well of course there are going to be a lot more losers you have your 20 dollar Mr. Coffee's out there, or the 30 dollar model with the built in espresso machine!  How many other pots have you looked at steve?  Do you even check out the 'junk because they are not SCAA' pots or just assume they are garbage because they are not certified.

Let me say this again in hopes you don't try to flip the target again.

SCAA - yes ok it's going to make the mark.
NON SCAA - does not automatically mean it WON'T make the mark.    So, again, just because a pot is not SCAA certified does NOT mean it won't make a good cup of coffee.   That is not an automatic disqualification for making decent coffee.

Aaron
Title: Re: SCAA Certified Home Brewers ...
Post by: stevea on August 17, 2017, 05:21:06 PM
...
Let me say this again in hopes you don't try to flip the target again.

No offense Aaron - but YOU are the one flipping the target, moving the goalpost.
I asked YOU to name these great non-SCAA makers, but you dodged & weaved and failed to name any.

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SCAA - yes ok it's going to make the mark.
NON SCAA - does not automatically mean it WON'T make the mark.

Then name them so we can all enjoy. Rather than CLAIM that there are many non-SCAA units that are great - NAME THEM!  Tell us the names and/or models that are so great.  That's what I asked - and you completely danced around the topic.

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So, again, just because a pot is not SCAA certified does NOT mean it won't make a good cup of coffee.

And again - I totally agree - in principle - but I don't know of any great non-SCAA makers.  Do you ?

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That is not an automatic disqualification for making decent coffee.

Again  - I agree, BUT SCAA is genuinely a positive qualifier.  I've asked you to name some great non-SCAA  models that could generally match something like Bonvita or TV - and you've totally failed to reply.  It's probable they exist, but $1800 and 5-10 makers is not the stuff of 'payola' or an  'old boys network' as you suggest.   That's not even table stakes to market a US national product.

You got no names/models = you got no case.
You've provided zilch evidence for your case that there are  great non-SCAA makers out there.

My experience is that many non-SCAA maker are hit&miss.   You might get  great Capresso or Bunn (home unit) that hits temps & works well, or you might get a total dud of the exact same model that is way too cold.  That seems to generally NOT-HAPPEN for SCAA approved models.  I'm sure there are SCAA approved dud units just as there are great non-approved units.  My question remains - name some generally great non-SCAA maker models.
Title: Re: SCAA Certified Home Brewers ...
Post by: stevea on September 13, 2017, 08:46:09 AM
Give it a try Steve, that is the only way you will know for sure.
...

Just got one of the first Breville Precision Brewers released in the US yesterday.   Way too many settings & options to give a review yet.

a/ The thermal carafe is really good. Keeps coffee hot for numerous hours.
b/ It makes a little humming noise as it brews - the water is pumped through a PID controlled thermoblock as I understand it.
c/ water temp is adjustable in 1 degree C increments (or 2 deg F, your choice).
d/ It will add some hot water and programmably delay to bloom the coffee,
e/  Has both basket&cone features, but the cone is  for <= 40 floz of water, the basket for 40-60floz.  Will even do single cup tho' I haven't tried.
f/ 60floz of coffee is really a lot, and I suddenly remember why I don't like basket filters.

Got a coupon for a free pourover adapter - woot!
Title: Re: SCAA Certified Home Brewers ...
Post by: brianmch on September 13, 2017, 11:52:30 AM
Keep us posted on the results of your testing.
Title: Re: SCAA Certified Home Brewers ...
Post by: stevea on September 18, 2017, 12:16:59 PM
After the first pot, I shifted to the cone brewer setting which limits me to 40floz of water.  I've always preferred cones to the the "mr coffee" type baskets, probably just me.  So anyway 40oz is a bit less than my ~46oz capresso.  I've oddly upgraded to a smaller capacity brewer!?!   Yeah I could use the basket system and go up to 60floz, but I'll probably reserve that for when I have coffee drinkers over.

My first few pots tasted too mild, as though there was under-extraction.  The water distribution pattern in the grounds looks fine.  I played w/ temps, and with the water pump flow rate (slow/med/fast settings).  Too-high temps got a bit sour - most noticeable as the coffee cools.   It seems that the time to make a breville pot, even on "slow" flow rate is still faster then my capresso (and IMO the capresso was over-extracting, pulling too much bitterness).   Eventually I resorted to a slightly finer grind which seems to be working well.  IIRC I went a notch courser for the capresso as compared to the bonvita, so it makes sense I had to go back.

So my personal settings are for the (default) 30 second bloom delay, 94C(201F), and 'medium' flow rate.  And I'm getting cups as good as bonvita, tho' the pot temperature is higher and the heat retention is better.

Kitchen thermometer suggests the water temp control is accurate, but I need to dig out my lab thermometer to tell for sure.
---
There are three pre-programmed settings for 'fast', 'gold', and 'strong' pots of coffee.   Gold is restricted to the 40floz cone, and I expect it's pretty close to my personal settings.  I expect 'strong' has a slower flow rate, and 'fast' a faster flow rate - they may diddle the temps and bloom too.    I can't see much value for a 'fast' settings.  Even in a rushed morning the 45-90 seconds you save isn't IMO worth much compared w/ flavor.

It's really interesting to be able to modulate the water temp, but frankly I'm learning that w/in reason it doesn't make that much difference. 93C-95C is the sweet spot for me, and it's hard to tell the difference from 93C to 95C.  <90C is where flavor goes south.

Title: Re: SCAA Certified Home Brewers ...
Post by: ptrmorton on September 18, 2017, 12:38:46 PM
Great update stevea.  Thanks!
Title: Re: SCAA Certified Home Brewers ...
Post by: brianmch on September 18, 2017, 01:30:02 PM
Thanks Stevea.
Title: Re: SCAA Certified Home Brewers ...
Post by: Joe on October 04, 2017, 12:55:08 PM
I have the OXO on Brain and the Technivorm Moccamaster. I will be selling my Moccamaster and that is just so that I can hook up a fellow GCBC person. There is one frustration i have with the OXO after using it for several months now and that is that the pause and serve valve leaks coffee drips. What pushed me over the edge to choose that over my moccamaster is that my wife loves that it does not let you be stupid. It will not brew until you have descaled it once it needs descaling, the brew completely stops and will not overfill if the the caraf is not squarely where it is supposed to be, the brew cycle perfroms like a pour over: pausing for bloom etc.


So this is like the apple version of a coffee brewer, and the technivorm is like the Gaming rig. I personally prefer the technovorm slightly, but the wife has put the foot down.
Title: Re: SCAA Certified Home Brewers ...
Post by: Ascholten on October 04, 2017, 04:25:32 PM
Steve, you mentioned you like the cone brewing basket over the standard Mr. Coffee.  Same here, I believe the cone basket allows better extraction, as the water is kind of forced through all the grounds.  The mr coffee baskets, I have seen where sometimes the spray pattern, it hits the grounds, but some areas, like the outer ridges, really don't get extracted, just sort of absorb some of the water.  It gets wet but not brewed, where the cone by it's shape kind of forces all the grounds to have the water run over them.

Joe, on the TV, what I do is, it's a bit extra work but I close off the dripper, let the basket fill with water, stir with spoon to get all the grounds involved, then open dripper and let all water run out, close and repeat, up to 3 times, then final just let it run through, to be honest you pretty much extracted most out of the grounds and there is not much left to brew anyways.  I find the flavor is extremely rich this way.  I also use a mesh basket, I don't like paper, I feel that it's absorption of the oils kind of steals some flavor.  yes there is a mouth feel to the coffee, yes there is a layer of sediment on the bottom if you let it set a bit but the way I see it.  Those who like a full  bodied coffee, here it is, those who don't like mouth feel, let it set for 20 minutes and the thickness settles out a bit to give you your watery restaurant coffee :)

Aaron

Aaron
Title: Re: SCAA Certified Home Brewers ...
Post by: stevea on October 08, 2017, 01:18:48 AM
Steve, you mentioned you like the cone brewing basket over the standard Mr. Coffee.  Same here, I believe the cone basket allows better extraction,

I've always *suspected* that, but frankly I just have bad memories from places I've worked w/basket filters, vs even the cheap old Krups I owned several decades ago.  The only basket unit I had the least respect for was Mom's Bunn - fast & pretty good.

I *think* I could get better basket performance than my first & only try from the Breville Precision, now that I've learned to use it. I'll save that for 'Experimental Wednesdays'.

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stir with spoon to get all the grounds involved [...] I find the flavor is extremely rich this way.
That's on the queue for next X-Wednesday, but frankly it's a bit too fussy for everyday use .... unless it's unbelievably great.

Quote
I also use a mesh basket, I don't like paper, I feel that it's absorption of the oils kind of steals some flavor.

Dead-on and I've done side-by-by-side pots to prove the point.

But here is the hitch .... there are all kinds of papers on how coffee drinking impacts health and as a 2-pot-per-day post-colon-cancer type, I am concerned that most papers suggest coffee is mostly good for you, but a few point to some negatives.  Then I came across a paper that suggested the difference is the use of paper vs screen filters.  Where ... paper-filter=good health, screen-filter=mixed results.  The CLAIM is that paper traps various plant sterols, diterpenes yada yada that impact cholesterol...heart disease and even a few more rare cancers.

So for a while I used a metal-mesh inside of a paper filter, then re-used the paper filter like 4-6 time.  The paper filter builds up a really interesting layer of goo, that frankly tastes good.  OTOH - not gonna live forever.

My metal cone 'gold tone' filter does fit inside the Breville, but it sometimes requires an extra jiggle to get it into/out-of place.

I am expecting a pour-over adapter from Breville.  I haven't tried the cold coffee options, but I have been using the  'cup'(up to 20floz) setting to make my wife's decaf, and this 'cup setting makes a tolerable cup of tea or bouillon if you tweak the temperature up toward the 98C max.

So in all -
Makes a really good pot of coffee to 40floz (can't really say at 60floz).
Is educational to tweak the temps & rate  & bloom time - but in reality you'll settle in around gold-cup.
If all you want is full pots of drip coffee, then a Bonavita or Oxo is likely as good a choice for less $$.
If you will use the cup, or cold-brew or pour-over options - then it's a win.