Green Coffee Buying Club
Coffee Discussion boards => Hardware & Equipment => Topic started by: John F on April 05, 2014, 09:01:50 AM
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I'm finally sick of dual use grinding.
I'm ready to pick up an espresso dedicated grinder. I've been anti 2 grinders for ever but I'm starting to have issues and its time...
I've done zero research on current grinders and intend this thread to be about all the research that I do.
I'm prepared to get the Vario just because RcrX has two but figured one quick thread was in order just to make sure I'm not overlooking something.
I'm after a great quality espresso dedicated grinder. And no..not the $1,400 crazy talk grinders.
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John,
Find a used commercial espresso grinder $250 put a new set of burrs in it $50.... And you will wish you'd done it a long time ago.
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Sell me one of yours for $325. 8)
You probably have too many anyway.
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Sell me one of yours for $325. 8)
You probably have too many anyway.
;D I only currently have 2... One at the cabin and one at home.
Buy this one
https://denver.craigslist.org/bfs/4361702425.html
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I've been thinking about getting a Vario for everything except espresso and using my Mazzer strictly for espresso.
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I have a Rossi rr45 I've been thinking of letting go of. The burrs have only a couple of pounds through them.
Way cheaper than a new Vario. Interested at $200 shipped?
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I have a Rossi rr45 I've been thinking of letting go of. The burrs have only a couple of pounds through them.
Way cheaper than a new Vario. Interested at $200 shipped?
I might be. I'm working now and can't look at it but will let you know tonight.
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I have a Rossi rr45 I've been thinking of letting go of. The burrs have only a couple of pounds through them.
Way cheaper than a new Vario. Interested at $200 shipped?
I might be. I'm working now and can't look at it but will let you know tonight.
No hurry. I was looking at it this morning thinking I needed to find it a new home
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Ceramic stock burrs in the Vario for espresso. Metallic (Mahlkonig) burrs in the Vario for pourover. For the price point I don't think you can beat it. Of course there will always be used grinder deals out on the market and if you find the right deal... it's the right deal.
The Vario comfortably rules the $500 price range.
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Grinder seem to be my weakness. Right now, on the counter, I have a Perciso, a Major, and a Vario-W. The Vario-W rarely gets used. I originally bought the Vario as my espresso grinder. When I moved up to the major, I thought I would use the Vario as my primary coffee grinder. I did not like leaving beans in the hopper and would single-dose for coffee anyways, so I kind of stuck with the Perciso as it will do anything coffee well.
The Vario is a great espresso grinder. I honestly do not know if I could tell the difference between it and the Major in a blind taste test. The thing I don't like about the Vario is changing beans and adjusting grind settings. I would frequently have to change the grind settings when I changed beans or when beans aged to a certain degree. The major has more of a set-it-and-forget-it setting. Occasionally I will have to make minor adjustments when I change beans but rarely to the extent that it pulls a really bad shot. I get many, many less sink shots with the major.
I would second third Larry's advice, be patient, and look for a used commercial grinder. It decreases the level of frustration dramatically. If memory serves me correct, I believe I paid right around the 500 mark for the Major, and it was unused. Or, if I ever find a good deal on a K10 fresh, I will sell you my Major around that price.
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Ceramic stock burrs in the Vario for espresso. Metallic (Mahlkonig) burrs in the Vario for pourover. For the price point I don't think you can beat it. Of course there will always be used grinder deals out on the market and if you find the right deal... it's the right deal.
The Vario comfortably rules the $500 price range.
Do you like your metal brewers in your Vario? I have been kicking around the idea of replacing my ceramics with metal and trying to task my Vario as my coffee grinder. Right now it just gets used for decaf, which is very rarely done.
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The thing I don't like about the Vario is changing beans and adjusting grind settings. I would frequently have to change the grind settings when I changed beans or when beans aged to a certain degree. The major has more of a set-it-and-forget-it setting. Occasionally I will have to make minor adjustments when I change beans but rarely to the extent that it pulls a really bad shot. I get many, many less sink shots with the major.
Qualifier: I have not used a Vario. But the sentiment I hear most often is what Eric wrote, that it can be difficult to dial in when things change, like type of coffee or the humidity. Someone who buys my espresso blend struggles with hers, and even though Baratza has been great when she had to send it back, it's still a hassle.
No doubt there are many, many more satisfied users of the Vario than not. It makes me wonder if part of the equation is which espresso machine they get paired with - that could be an important consideration. No doubt the PVL is very forgiving and has a large sweet spot. My customer has a Sylvia and it may be more picky as to what she feeds it.
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I love my virtuoso for brewed coffee but it has not been without its troubles. I've read too much about problems with the Vario to ever purchase it (moot point as my K10 is forever). I would certainly look for a used commercial grinder first but I can also certainly recommend a Compak K3 for its build quality and grind quality. It will last forever and it will give you excellent espresso.
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Ceramic stock burrs in the Vario for espresso. Metallic (Mahlkonig) burrs in the Vario for pourover. For the price point I don't think you can beat it. Of course there will always be used grinder deals out on the market and if you find the right deal... it's the right deal.
The Vario comfortably rules the $500 price range.
Do you like your metal brewers in your Vario? I have been kicking around the idea of replacing my ceramics with metal and trying to task my Vario as my coffee grinder. Right now it just gets used for decaf, which is very rarely done.
I think the metal burr upgrade is worth it. Less fines than the ceramic set (some fines for espresso aren't necessarily a bad thing), a cleaner and better cup. It's worth taking a look at this thread:
http://www.home-barista.com/brewing/baratzas-new-vario-burrs-for-non-espresso-brew-only-t21098.html (http://www.home-barista.com/brewing/baratzas-new-vario-burrs-for-non-espresso-brew-only-t21098.html)
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The thing I don't like about the Vario is changing beans and adjusting grind settings. I would frequently have to change the grind settings when I changed beans or when beans aged to a certain degree. The major has more of a set-it-and-forget-it setting. Occasionally I will have to make minor adjustments when I change beans but rarely to the extent that it pulls a really bad shot. I get many, many less sink shots with the major.
Qualifier: I have not used a Vario. But the sentiment I hear most often is what Eric wrote, that it can be difficult to dial in when things change, like type of coffee or the humidity. Someone who buys my espresso blend struggles with hers, and even though Baratza has been great when she had to send it back, it's still a hassle.
No doubt there are many, many more satisfied users of the Vario than not. It makes me wonder if part of the equation is which espresso machine they get paired with - that could be an important consideration. No doubt the PVL is very forgiving and has a large sweet spot. My customer has a Sylvia and it may be more picky as to what she feeds it.
Or (considering this is espresso) it could be user error.
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Have you even considered this?
http://sovranastore.com/esgrin.html (http://sovranastore.com/esgrin.html)
Susan
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There is a Mazzer Super Jolly on CG for $385.
http://coffeegeek.com/forums/members/buysell/663816
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk
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There is a Mazzer Super Jolly on CG for $385.
[url]http://coffeegeek.com/forums/members/buysell/663816[/url] ([url]http://coffeegeek.com/forums/members/buysell/663816[/url])
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk
Not trying to be funny but I forget if I'm allowed over there or not.
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I think that Rossi will be too big for my kitchen.
Other than the stove and sink I have cabinets over all my counter space. I should have looked at that first. :-\
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I think that Rossi will be too big for my kitchen.
Other than the stove and sink I have cabinets over all my counter space. I should have looked at that first. :-
No worries :)
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I think that Rossi will be too big for my kitchen.
Other than the stove and sink I have cabinets over all my counter space. I should have looked at that first. :-
No worries :)
Ya know what...I think I'll take it.
I'll figure out how to chop the hopper.
I'll get with you on payment tonight.
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A new Macap M4 doser, stepless can be had for $499 "Here" (http://www.1st-line.com/store/pc/Macap-M4-Commercial-Espresso-Grinder-doser-stepless-black-12p3848.htm). It's commercial and in my opinion superior to the Vario. 3 reasons.
1. Larger burrs. Vario - 54mm / M4 58mm
2. Stepless (Infinite grind settings for any brew type)
3. Commercial built
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I think that Rossi will be too big for my kitchen.
Other than the stove and sink I have cabinets over all my counter space. I should have looked at that first. :-
No worries :)
Ya know what...I think I'll take it.
I'll figure out how to chop the hopper.
I'll get with you on payment tonight.
Ok. That works too ;D. The screw neck for the hopper (for lack of a better term) holds enough coffee for a shot, if that helps.
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Ok. That works too ;D. The screw neck for the hopper (for lack of a better term) holds enough coffee for a shot, if that helps.
Agreed. I have simply removed the hopper from each of my big grinders: the Cunill Tranquilo, the MD-50, and now the K-10 PB. Makes them not at all so imposing...
Susan
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I have no hopper on my Major and just put a old tamper in the throat. I did have to custom order my cabinets to get it to fit under them as well.
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Cool.
I saw that height dimension of 25" and was in shock.
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A new Macap M4 doser, stepless can be had for $499 "Here" ([url]http://www.1st-line.com/store/pc/Macap-M4-Commercial-Espresso-Grinder-doser-stepless-black-12p3848.htm[/url]). It's commercial and in my opinion superior to the Vario. 3 reasons.
1. Larger burrs. Vario - 54mm / M4 58mm
2. Stepless (Infinite grind settings for any brew type)
3. Commercial built
Did you spend a few days living with the Macap and the Vario, or are you just research comparing?
I owned a Macap for a few years prior to the Vario, when the Vario came out I bought it and sat the two side by side for quite a long time. I sold the Macap and kept the Vario.
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Burr size has little to do with that equation, since one is flat and the other conical.
I also think for 99% of the time, 'stepless' is less significant than what we ascribe to the word; most grinders nowadays that use steps have them spaced close enough together. I had a stepped M4 before my current grinder and it was never an issue.
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Burr size has little to do with that equation, since one is flat and the other conical.
I also think for 99% of the time, 'stepless' is less significant than what we ascribe to the word; most grinders nowadays that use steps have them spaced close enough together. I had a stepped M4 before my current grinder and it was never an issue.
Agreed on both points, Peter. My Macap was stepped as well, then I modded it to stepless, that mod didn't change my coffee world.
Speaking of new grinders, aren't you tired of yours by now? I think you've been hanging on to the grinder, that I would like to own, for quite long enough. Are you ready to send it my way yet? ;-)
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Burr size has little to do with that equation, since one is flat and the other conical.
I also think for 99% of the time, 'stepless' is less significant than what we ascribe to the word; most grinders nowadays that use steps have them spaced close enough together. I had a stepped M4 before my current grinder and it was never an issue.
Agreed on both points, Peter. My Macap was stepped as well, then I modded it to stepless, that mod didn't change my coffee world.
Speaking of new grinders, aren't you tired of yours by now? I think you've been hanging on to the grinder, that I would like to own, for quite long enough. Are you ready to send it my way yet? ;-)
As a matter of fact, yes I am! My grinder will probably pass your San Fran on its way to B|Java.
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Speaking of new grinders, aren't you tired of yours by now? I think you've been hanging on to the grinder, that I would like to own, for quite long enough. Are you ready to send it my way yet? ;-)
That be a familiar litany. Hope you have more success with it.
B|Plea-full
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A new Macap M4 doser, stepless can be had for $499 "Here" ([url]http://www.1st-line.com/store/pc/Macap-M4-Commercial-Espresso-Grinder-doser-stepless-black-12p3848.htm[/url]). It's commercial and in my opinion superior to the Vario. 3 reasons.
1. Larger burrs. Vario - 54mm / M4 58mm
2. Stepless (Infinite grind settings for any brew type)
3. Commercial built
Did you spend a few days living with the Macap and the Vario, or are you just research comparing?
I owned a Macap for a few years prior to the Vario, when the Vario came out I bought it and sat the two side by side for quite a long time. I sold the Macap and kept the Vario.
Sorry I should have mentioned. Only research on the Vario. Burr size has little to do with that equation, since one is flat and the other conical.
I also think for 99% of the time, 'stepless' is less significant than what we ascribe to the word; most grinders nowadays that use steps have them spaced close enough together. I had a stepped M4 before my current grinder and it was never an issue.
Agreed on both points, Peter. My Macap was stepped as well, then I modded it to stepless, that mod didn't change my coffee world.
Once I did the mod moving to stepless changed my world. I always found myself stuck between steps. Not bashing the Vario in any way. Just saying why not go a bit bigger on burrs and more grind options for a few more bucks within the $500 price range.
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A new Macap M4 doser, stepless can be had for $499 "Here" ([url]http://www.1st-line.com/store/pc/Macap-M4-Commercial-Espresso-Grinder-doser-stepless-black-12p3848.htm[/url]). It's commercial and in my opinion superior to the Vario. 3 reasons.
1. Larger burrs. Vario - 54mm / M4 58mm
2. Stepless (Infinite grind settings for any brew type)
3. Commercial built
Did you spend a few days living with the Macap and the Vario, or are you just research comparing?
I owned a Macap for a few years prior to the Vario, when the Vario came out I bought it and sat the two side by side for quite a long time. I sold the Macap and kept the Vario.
Not to stir the pot but someone told me once about my side-by side comparisons:
"Or (considering this is espresso) it could be user error."
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I am currently laughing. ;D
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Well I can tell you that a stepped Macap's make an awesome full range grinder but eventually the steps for espresso lands you in between 2 notches. If what I'm reading is correct about the Vario it has 230 steps just for espresso range would give it an advantage over a stepped Macap but stepless solves all that.
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I am currently laughing. ;D
Too funny; I was laughing already, and then scrolled down to see your post.
Somehow I don't think staylor and user error are to be used in the same sentence.
I'm curious how often staylor changes his grinder. Mine hardly ever gets adjusted, and only for beans that are really old, like 2 weeks or more old. I've learned to disregard the shot parameters for how long they can pull, and find a 50sec. ristretto to be a fine thing. So if one day the grinder setting pulls 50sec. and then a week later the beans are at the point where they pull a 40sec. shot, I don't really care... both are more than drinkable, and are perfect in their own right.
Which leads me back to stepped vs. stepless... the hash marks on the K10 represent about 5sec. in shot duration. Who knows if the steps on say, a M4 also equal about 5sec. in shot duration, but my point is why should a difference of 5sec. make or break a shot. I'm talking on the long end of the shot; I can see where there'd be a difference between a 20sec. shot and a 25sec. shot. But for my setup and my tastes, even 25-30sec. is kinda short, especially if were talking full shots and not ristrettos.
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The only thing I don't like about Vario is inconsistency after changing the grind back to espresso. It takes one or two shots on my Vario to get back to the fluffy zone. My solution will be to buy Baratza Encore for $120.
So, John, as a second grinder, I would recommend Vario.
Miniscule retention, consistent grind, I seldom have to adjust Vario once tuned, best customer service ever...
Would I buy it again: yes. And I have already suggested various Baratza grinders to my friends.
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surprised no one has mentioned the VooDoo modded Pharos, I guess I just did...
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I'm curious how often staylor changes his grinder. Mine hardly ever gets adjusted, and only for beans that are really old, like 2 weeks or more old. I've learned to disregard the shot parameters for how long they can pull, and find a 50sec. ristretto to be a fine thing. So if one day the grinder setting pulls 50sec. and then a week later the beans are at the point where they pull a 40sec. shot, I don't really care... both are more than drinkable, and are perfect in their own right.
Which leads me back to stepped vs. stepless... the hash marks on the K10 represent about 5sec. in shot duration. Who knows if the steps on say, a M4 also equal about 5sec. in shot duration, but my point is why should a difference of 5sec. make or break a shot. I'm talking on the long end of the shot; I can see where there'd be a difference between a 20sec. shot and a 25sec. shot. But for my setup and my tastes, even 25-30sec. is kinda short, especially if were talking full shots and not ristrettos.
That's pretty much where I am at as well. I hardly ever adjust my grinder. I will play with the other variables first (dose, tamp pressure, lever manipulation, or whatever) and they always get me in the range that I want to be in. Of course that's easy to say now, but I have to remind myself that it took years of sweating all of the details in order to get to a point where the details just seem to fall in place auto-magically, a tiny bit of "Espresso Force" (TM).
I think a case can be made to anyone who is new-ish to espresso (less than 2yrs of focused shots) that it's important to focus on manipulating/playing around with just one variable (grind) while keeping all other variables as close to the same as possible, and study what that one variable does to espresso for a month. Then stabilize that variable and spend a month on the next variable. Half a year into it gives a much better understanding of how each variable impacts and then it's time to start playing one variable off another.
I spent months and months isolating variables, then some more months combining, the some more months trying to break espresso, doing things that shouldn't be done, going well beyond the generally accepted practices just so I could form a vision of the full playing field. Learning the really good, and the really bad, helped me find the better than middle ground. Sometimes I get amazing shots, sometimes I get pretty good shots, occasionally I'll get mediocre to poor shots, but all of them are better than retail shots so I don't have much to complain about. The shots that I pull today come from paying my dues in the espresso trenches in my cafe and more importantly as a focused home roaster/espresso nerd; 100,000 shots later and I can confidently say good espresso isn't easy, so anyone who's doing it effortlessly gets a tip of the hat from me.
Back to grinders... I get good results from my Vario. I'm sure I would get better results from a K10. Anyone want to give me a K10? ;-)
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Well I can tell you that a stepped Macap's make an awesome full range grinder but eventually the steps for espresso lands you in between 2 notches. If what I'm reading is correct about the Vario it has 230 steps just for espresso range would give it an advantage over a stepped Macap but stepless solves all that.
Haaaaa...Señor Burner is totally correct. There are times when the steps are just too far apart making the adjustments a tamping and/or lever pressure issue. The journey continues...
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Peter, just curious but is pre-infusion included in your timing or is that only the time that coffee is dripping?
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I start the timer when the shot starts, so the 5sec. pre-infusion is included in the overall time.
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I don't believe Peter is timing shots at this point.
Not buying it.
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I finally put my Obel (La Pavoni ZIP) on Craigslist and put my Vario back on the counter. The Obel was just to large for our counter space, and the Vario is acceptable for espresso as long as it is used for espresso only. There are the occasional slow pulls, but overall great.
(Anyone interested in an Obel?)
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I don't believe Peter is timing shots at this point.
Not buying it.
I have some swamp land in Florida you may be interested in.
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well, what did you decide?
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well, what did you decide?
I grabbed the Rossi from MMW...pretty concerned it's going to wind up being way too big but decided to try anyway. It's in transit.
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well, what did you decide?
I grabbed the Rossi from MMW...pretty concerned it's going to wind up being way too big but decided to try anyway. It's in transit.
I think you will overlook it's size once you start using it. You should see if a mazzer or compak short hopper will fit it.
http://www.espressoparts.com/MAZ_85M (http://www.espressoparts.com/MAZ_85M)
http://www.coffee-grinders.com/product_info.php?products_id=397 (http://www.coffee-grinders.com/product_info.php?products_id=397)
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If it fits, this is the classiest short hopper ever:
http://www.orphanespresso.com/OE-Short-Stack-Compak-Mini-Hopper_p_5598.html (http://www.orphanespresso.com/OE-Short-Stack-Compak-Mini-Hopper_p_5598.html)
I've got one in the K-10, but still need one for the MD-50
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We make no claims, or assertions as to the need for, or not, of a columnar weight above the single dose of beans, and do not address any issues, real or imagined, as to the consistency, or not, of single dosing a commercial espresso grinder.
:o ;D
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We make no claims, or assertions as to the need for, or not, of a columnar weight above the single dose of beans, and do not address any issues, real or imagined, as to the consistency, or not, of single dosing a commercial espresso grinder.
:o ;D
Yeah, Doug hates being called upon to argue for his stuff, as we all saw in his comments at CoffeeGeek explaining why he wasn't going to be making the Pharos anymore. He makes it; use it if you want; he won't twist your arm or argue with you if you want to criticize it.
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My eyes aren't good enough to see imaginary grind consistency.
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I've learned to disregard the shot parameters for how long they can pull, and find a 50sec. ristretto to be a fine thing. So if one day the grinder setting pulls 50sec. and then a week later the beans are at the point where they pull a 40sec. shot, I don't really care... both are more than drinkable, and are perfect in their own right.
~~~~50 second ristretto?!?...you're pulling way too fast laddie
Best,
=:-)
Jake
Reddick Fla.
"If workers struggle for higher wages, this is hailed as 'social gains'; if businessmen struggle for higher profits, this is damned as 'selfish greed'." - Ayn Rand
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I've learned to disregard the shot parameters for how long they can pull, and find a 50sec. ristretto to be a fine thing. So if one day the grinder setting pulls 50sec. and then a week later the beans are at the point where they pull a 40sec. shot, I don't really care... both are more than drinkable, and are perfect in their own right.
~~~~50 second ristretto?!?...you're pulling way too fast laddie
I loves me the goopy-gloppy.
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well, what did you decide?
I decided to get the Vario.... 8)
I just made myself laugh.
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Listen to Larry.
And if you are going to get a Vario, it should be your non-espresso grinder, not your espresso grinder.
Susan's sense
Guess I did it backwards. Based on advice from Tex (miss him!), I bought a Baratza Vario and Gaggia Classic in 2010. Still have both of them!
Qualifier: I have not used a Vario. But the sentiment I hear most often is what Eric wrote, that it can be difficult to dial in when things change, like type of coffee or the humidity. Someone who buys my espresso blend struggles with hers, and even though Baratza has been great when she had to send it back, it's still a hassle.
No doubt there are many, many more satisfied users of the Vario than not. It makes me wonder if part of the equation is which espresso machine they get paired with - that could be an important consideration. No doubt the PVL is very forgiving and has a large sweet spot. My customer has a Sylvia and it may be more picky as to what she feeds it.
Peter, I think you hit the nail on the head! 8)
I have used the Baratza Vario with a PVL and a Gaggia Classic. With the Gaggia, I was constantly fiddling with the adjustment on the Vario to produce decent espresso.
I was really surprised that I NEVER had to do that with the PVL. Now I only use the PVL, and the Gaggia is collecting dust ... but I did have to buy a Capresso grinder for drip coffee.
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rgrosz...
If you have a Huky we have the exact same set up. 8)
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When I bought Tom's Gaggia Classic and Cunill Tranquillo grinder I was planning on selling the grinder as I already have a Mazzer Super Jolly. I quickly realized how awesome it is to have a dedicated espresso grinder and a dedicated Drip/etc. Grinder. It's seems overkill now but the Mazzer grinds for my Bonita mainly and the Cunill does a great job for the Gaggia. I think the Cunill is Cheap but it's a good grinder.