Advice about lever machine?

[Tex]

On a serious note I'd say shoot a PM to Warrior372 and ask him about commercial levers.

I remember he had a good bit of knowledge about the brands and had an opinion on a certain one....I just don't remember what it was.

He might've jumped in with some useful info if peter & milo hadn't hijacked the thread so quickly. They're bad men!

[Tex]

If budget isn't an issue, how about Kee's Idocompresso?

Freaking WORD!!!

If money was not a concern of mine I'd go press the order button right now.

I've always thought his work was inspired by the replicator critters on Stargate 1? Anyone else see a similarity?

[staylor]

I was going to recommend warrior372 as well, but I'm pretty sure Orphan Espresso will be a good 'go to'.

[John F]

I was going to recommend warrior372 as well, but I'm pretty sure Orphan Espresso will be a good 'go to'.

I don't know the Orphan guys name but I've seen a few of his vids and he knows every millimeter of those machines for sure.

[Warrior372]

If I was going to buy a new lever right now, and money was not an issue, it would most likely be a Bosco Posilipo. They are handmade in Napoli, Italy by a family who has been making the machines by hand for over 50 years. You would be very hard pressed to find a used one in the US. In my 5 years of craigslist searches I have only seen 1 Bosco and it was actually one of their discontinued semi-auto machines. The most notable shop that uses one would be Cafe Vita in Seattle. They also happen to be the US distributor for them as well. Their levers come in 1-5 group setups. Here is a link to their website: http://www.bosco-macchine.com/home-.htm

So why a Bosco? I am very into high quality, handmade products and their craftsmanship is unparalleled (Kees Van der Westen is a different animal). Their machines have a very classic look and are beautiful, but not over the top. Also, I believe Cafe Vita carries parts as well if something does need to be replaced or repaired. The machine has all of the components you need to make great shots on a lever machine (as most levers do), but the only way your friend will get outrageously good shots on any lever is to pull a lot of shots!

I happen to have emailed Cafe Vita in early January to get pricing out of curiousity. Prices were $5,350 for a new 1-group, $6,095 for a new 2-group and $7,850 for a new 4-group (They did not include pricing on a new 3-group). Single group machines have to be ordered well in advance, because they do not make or sell many of them. They also had a used 3-group for sale at $6,000 and a used 5-group for sale at $8,200. I have no idea how firm they are on asking prices.

You can also surf the internet and find a lot of people who profess that La San Marco lever machines are untouchable when it comes to shot quality on a lever. This is attributed to their 53mm portafilters / baskets. A smaller and deeper basket is considered by many to give a more layered flavor profile that cannot be paralleled by a 58mm setup. Ask anyone who has had a machine with a small setup like a 49mm Elektra MCaL and a prosumer pump machine, an all of them will be able to attest to the dramatic difference (I am sure Staylor can comment as well). Not to say one is better than the other, obviously that is all in the persons palate / preferences.

What exactly is your friend looking for? How many groups? What type of look? New or old? If there is interest in a San Marco I have a very swanky looking one that is steps away from being finished (and has been for quite a while now. . . with my schedule a few simple things can take a really longtime ). It is a La San Marco 75 Series Leva with a hand-hammered copper hood and a fairly unique setup. It is a single group with the boiler capacity and heating element of a 2-group. 75 Series are rare in and of themselves, but that setup is even more unique.

Again, if money is not an issue, I know of a collector in Germany. His name is Julius Groten and he has one of the most beautiful collections of classic lever machines in the world. He does incredible restorations on these machines. Some are for sale from time to time. Prices are very fair, although I have no clue what crated freight shipping on one would cost from Europe.

There is always Kees Van der Westen's Mirage Idrocompresso too.  If he wants something modern and machined that would be the one for him. The price I found for a 2-group was right around $9,500. . . . that is kind of crazy for a machine someone would use at home if you ask me . . .

Anyway, Doug and Barb Garrott are the owners of OrphanEspresso.com. They are very knowledgable on levers. I am not 100% sure if they always show all of their refurbished machine inventory on their site. I would recommend calling. I know they do have several machines that they do not post for sale, but as we all know almost everything is for sale if the price is right.

[staylor]

A few things...

Wow, that Bosco site need work. The main image is a massive download and the text is super funny, a classic example "the machines BOSCO conjugate the ancient Neapolitan tradition of the coffee with advanced technologies". Conjugate? They do look like sweet levers. Wish I hadn't seen them, they make my PVL look, well, like a PVL. ;-)

Speaking of PVL, one of the reasons I went with it is the smaller deeper basket and yes I think it does do something rather unique for the coffee. I spent a boat load of time researching the differences between levers within a price range that I could afford and it was quite interesting for me to learn that beyond the general characteristics that lever's bring to the table (pressure profiling, realtime pre-infusion manipulation, etc) there was also this theme that each brand of lever could produce different subtleties as part of their 'personality'.

I wish I could remember the name of the machine Doug had on their for sale site, it was red, reminded me of a Ferrari and it was beautiful. It was also around $4000 and I would cry myself to sleep at night thinking about that machine. It's not there now or I would post a link to it.

[mp]

My only suggestion is that he makes sure he can master the two variables.      

That made me laugh out loud!

 :laughing4:

[Shannon22]

I echo the sentiments on the Bosco.  Beautiful machines.  It's hard to beat hand crafted in Naples, Italy.  Cafe Vit@ claims to be the exclusive US distributor, which isn't really true.  They might be the only, but they're not exclusive.  They told me they only sell them to someone who commits to brewing their coffee exclusively (at least I got told a different story from Warrior).  I'm not sure if your friends consumption levels would work for them. .

You could have them shipped in from : http://londiniumespresso.com/products/bosco-lever-espresso-machines

[Shannon22]

What exactly is your friend looking for? How many groups? What type of look? New or old? If there is interest in a San Marco I have a very swanky looking one that is steps away from being finished (and has been for quite a while now. . . with my schedule a few simple things can take a really longtime ). It is a La San Marco 75 Series Leva with a hand-hammered copper hood and a fairly unique setup. It is a single group with the boiler capacity and heating element of a 2-group. 75 Series are rare in and of themselves, but that setup is even more unique.

Do you have pictures of this beauty?

[staylor]

The guys at Slayer did a little piece on the Vita BOSCO.

http://www.slayerespresso.com/2008/05/12/caffe-vita-leveraging-the-bosco/#more-132

[Tex]

The guys at Slayer did a little piece on the Vita BOSCO.

http://www.slayerespresso.com/2008/05/12/caffe-vita-leveraging-the-bosco/#more-132

Some interesting points made, particularly about lever machines, HX boilers, and temp stability. Sounds like the ideal lever machine would be double boiler or open boiler with no steam capability.

I'd like to see one with saturated groups too. Temp stability is such a critical issue that you'd think someone would design a machine around that, not some esoteric feature that has little impact on the quality of the coffee in the cup?

[staylor]

Having pulled shots on the Slayer, and spending a couple of days with the guys who invented it, I like that they think outside the box. Being able to create such huge adjustments/approaches to the shot production is something quite unique to the Slayer. Having experienced the massive cup impacts via the Slayer simply by machine manipulation is quite an eye opener. I don't think it's the ideal solution, really I have no idea if such a thing exists - how can it, as everyone has their own interpretation of what espresso is and how to get there.

Ultimately I think most decent barista/home users can achieve a quality espresso with the machine they have in their own kitchen, assuming it meets a certain level of quality control via predictable temp, pressures, etc and assuming they know what they are doing.

[Tex]

Having pulled shots on the Slayer, and spending a couple of days with the guys who invented it, I like that they think outside the box. Being able to create such huge adjustments/approaches to the shot production is something quite unique to the Slayer. Having experienced the massive cup impacts via the Slayer simply by machine manipulation is quite an eye opener. I don't think it's the ideal solution, really I have no idea if such a thing exists - how can it, as everyone has their own interpretation of what espresso is and how to get there.

Ultimately I think most decent barista/home users can achieve a quality espresso with the machine they have in their own kitchen, assuming it meets a certain level of quality control via predictable temp, pressures, etc and assuming they know what they are doing.

You mean as long as the 2 variables are mastered?

[Warrior372]

The guys at Slayer did a little piece on the Vita BOSCO.

http://www.slayerespresso.com/2008/05/12/caffe-vita-leveraging-the-bosco/#more-132

Some interesting points made, particularly about lever machines, HX boilers, and temp stability. Sounds like the ideal lever machine would be double boiler or open boiler with no steam capability.

I'd like to see one with saturated groups too. Temp stability is such a critical issue that you'd think someone would design a machine around that, not some esoteric feature that has little impact on the quality of the coffee in the cup?

Commercial levers have more (or as little depending how you want to look at it) thermal stability through metal mass than an old e61. I would say the average group off of one of my commercial levers weighs just over 25 lbs (I just established that with a disassembled group in one hand and a 25 lb weight in the other), with the average e61 weighing in around 10 lbs. That is a lot more metal. You need to hook up one of your PIDs to a lever !

[Warrior372]

What exactly is your friend looking for? How many groups? What type of look? New or old? If there is interest in a San Marco I have a very swanky looking one that is steps away from being finished (and has been for quite a while now. . . with my schedule a few simple things can take a really longtime ). It is a La San Marco 75 Series Leva with a hand-hammered copper hood and a fairly unique setup. It is a single group with the boiler capacity and heating element of a 2-group. 75 Series are rare in and of themselves, but that setup is even more unique.

Do you have pictures of this beauty?

Here is a picture of the front of the San Marco 75 and one of the back copper hood. I do have all of the front paneling for it, but the powder coating turned out so well that I do not want to cover it up. I have been thinking about getting glass or plexiglass to frame the front of the machine so I can keep the powder coated pieces and inner parts exposed. I posted pictures of it on Home-Barista some time ago. The stainless is on the front in those pictures. Apparently I also posted pictures of the inside of the San Marco on that thread as well. They are a little further down the thread. My '80 Conti Prestina and then untouched '58 Conti Empress 2-group are in the same post, just scroll down from the top about 20%. Here is the link to those pictures: http://www.home-barista.com/levers/lever-espresso-machine-gallery-t2692-270.html