Green Coffee Buying Club
Coffee Discussion boards => Hardware & Equipment => Topic started by: thejavaman on May 11, 2008, 01:42:07 PM
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Alright guys, I need some help. If you had a budget of right around $1,500 and could buy any espresso machine/grinder combination in the world, what would you go with??? I'm thinking about the Nuova Simonelli Oscar (http://www.espresso-machine-superstore.com/p/nuova-simonelli-oscar-espresso-machine?utm_source=Google_Base&utm_medium=Shopbots&utm_term=nuova_simonelli_oscar_espresso_machine&utm_campaign=9491790) & Mazzer Mini (http://www.espressoparts-usa.com/product/MAZM2) combo. Ideas??? Suggestions???
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(http://heartofchaos.net/Ian's%20Break%20Dancing%20Photos/images/***Down%20the%20Rabbit%20Hole.jpg)
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;D :o ;D :o - Uhhh, it's not for me, it's, uhhhh, for some guy I know.....
Seriously, my step-dad (and business partner) is thinking of converting the wet bar in his basement to an espresso bar and he was asking me for suggestions. I really don't know all the "in's & out's" of quality espresso machines and grinders, and I know some people here probably do - so I figured I would ask....
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If I had to do it all over again, I would wait it out and find a commercial single group on Craigslist - even one that needed rebuilt. Monito, Joe, Felix and the others are making me jealous.
Faema single in KC (http://kansascity.craigslist.org/for/672669066.html) available. If you'd like me to look at it, I'd be happy to.
I make great espresso out of my Andreja, but wish I didn't have a vibe pump just because of the noise.
-Stubbie
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Thinking about machines I am not up on what is currently available and at what prices, but I did own an Oscar once (ebayed for four hundred and change and sold it for about the same 3 years later), and I liked it a lot, but I'm sure with that budget you can do better. I would look into the Vibiemme Domobar to start, but that is mostly my bias speaking: Vibiemme was an offshoot of Faema, I have an old Faema that I LOVE, and the folks that started "VBM-ay" brought a lot of their know how with them. So I just suggest that as a starting point. I know it generally gets very good reviews, though some of that is model dependent I think.
I'm not up on grinders at all.
Good luck! Sounds like a fun project, especially since the necessary cash is, ahem, not yours....
:)
Paul
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I make great espresso out of my Andreja, but wish I didn't have a vibe pump just because of the noise.
-Stubbie
You can "outboard" that pump and do away with a lot of the noise you know. Dan Kehn at H-B did that with one of his machines, might even have been an Andreja? There's a thread or two on it over there.
>:D
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Whatever route you go, spend a large chunk of that budget grinding your beans. If you do go with a new machine, I would aim at a brew boiler. Double or not...
If you buy used I am an absolute devotee to the commercial HX. That design is the G Wagen or H1 of espresso machines. A little clunky, a little inaccurate. At the heart though....hard to break.
Though this will be really hard to someone buying his first setup. My split would be fairly extreme.
I would buy a grinder like the Mahlkoenig/Astoria for a little over a grand. (K30)
Then I would buy your choice of commercial head (58mm) single boiler for the espresso.
That is under the assumption you do not want to do latte art.
Want latte art?
All the new double boilers will not be adequately matched grinder wise with a 1.5k budget. IMHO.
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Thanks for the suggestions guys - keep 'em coming....
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That is under the assumption you do not want to do latte art.
Want latte art?
I'm not concerned with latte art at all right now. I really just want the best combo out there for the money.
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Well ... for that budget ... assuming you want to go new ... you could get the Expobar Office Lever and the Mazzer Mini ... that should squeek in there at about 1500 dollars. This will give you the famed E61 group that the Oscar lacks. Bezerra also has a model at about $1000.00 that shares parts with the Pasquini Livia. Oscar is good also ... cannot knock that ... I have a bias for the E61 group.
If you are handy ... you can get (as suggested) a project commercial espresso machine and recondition it for fairly cheap and then blow your brains out on a really expensive grinder.
Hope that helps.
Ciao
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Oscar is good also ... cannot knock that ... I have a bias for the E61 group.
If you are handy ... you can get (as suggested) a project commercial espresso machine and recondition it for fairly cheap and then blow your brains out on a really expensive grinder.
FWIW I couldn't agree more. When I said I liked my Oscar I should have mentioned that this was after some modifications I made. NS has some funny ideas about optimal brew temp, IMHO.
I also have a preference for real pre-infusion ala a real E-61 group, and though I can't really explain why, other than to describe my results, I can say for sure that Oscar doesn't have that.
The latest offering from VBM is a dual boiler machine, which though potentially awesome is probably outside of your budget. In my earlier post I was referring to the single boiler e-61 machines.
But do check out the new double boiler domobar (literally, "home bar") as well, who knows, maybe you can pry another grand out of the man, and then, after having played with it for awhile, report back here.
;D >:D ;D >:D ;D
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....I also have a preference for real pre-infusion ala a real E-61 group....
Paul, can you explain that a little more to me??? What exactly is an E-61 group??? What do you mean by "real pre-infusion"???
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....I also have a preference for real pre-infusion ala a real E-61 group....
Paul, can you explain that a little more to me??? What exactly is an E-61 group??? What do you mean by "real pre-infusion"???
You can read all about it here:
http://www.home-barista.com/forums/e61-group-espresso-machine-is-its-reputation-justified-t376.html
In a nut shell the E61 makes great espresso with crema an easily repeatable experience. This is a technology that Faema invented in the 50's or 60's I think.
Hope that helps.
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....I also have a preference for real pre-infusion ala a real E-61 group....
Paul, can you explain that a little more to me??? What exactly is an E-61 group??? What do you mean by "real pre-infusion"???
You can read all about it here:
[url]http://www.home-barista.com/forums/e61-group-espresso-machine-is-its-reputation-justified-t376.html[/url]
In a nut shell the E61 makes great espresso with crema an easily repeatable experience. This is a technology that Faema invented in the 50's or 60's I think.
Hope that helps
Thanks for the link MP - that's quite a bit of very technical and extremely detailed information! You almost need a Ph.D in espresso just to be able to comprehend that.... ;D
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I've been thinking about this and have a different take. Apologies in advance as this is an answer to the OP but there is a positional rant in here too.
Tell him to get the most superauto he can find for $1,500.
I've started this thread 4 times and deleted it because I'm not sure yet how to support the rest of my idea but the gist of it is this:
If somebody suddenly finds a budget to get an espresso set up but does not know what to get or actually much about coffee other than they like it a lot and have some money to put into it at the hobby level.. a superauto very well might be the best thing they could buy. They are not going to chase shots, roast, track down specific beans work like lunatics in order to find some tiny hitch in their routine that is causing some minor something to happen. They could get a superauto and just go straight to enjoying their coffee and learning to appreciate what the machine produces.
I go into a lot of peoples houses and most people just have a Mr. coffee. On occasion they have a cone or French press..rarely but sometimes they have a grinder to boot. :-\ Sometimes they have a Kureg or something and on rare occasions they have an espresso set up. I'd say 75% of those are superautos.
An interesting thing I've learned is that if somebody takes one step up from Mr. Coffee they are excited as all get out about their coffee. If all they do is drop Starbucks house blend in a French press they are loving what they get in the cup.
In all of my convo's (and you know I start asking probing questions) I know one guy that roasts on a freshroast and 2 people that order coffee from Intelly and Illy. Everybody else is buying coffee from either Starbucks or from grocery store bins.
Last week I talked to some people that had a superauto they were running decaf Starbucks blend in and they had some non dairy creamer on the counter.... they loved the coffee they were getting. What $1,500 or even $3K set up can we recommend them to pull starbucks decaf and non dairy creamer that they are going to enjoy the cup more from?
I have a customer with a Kureg that brags the thing up so much I almost wanted to buy one myself. I had a cup of Kona from it once. :-[
So....
What good is it to advise somebody to get an intricate set up that requires thousands of hours of work (to learn how to use to the best of it's potential), tie them into something that requires obsessive levels of attention and hands on practice to master...when they can get a one button push machine that will actually give them everything they want immediately?
I just can't help but wonder how much better the coffee would be to them over a time line with a mediocre superauto vs. years of poor shot building with inappropriate beans...
Of course if the Step dad, Brother in law, Uncle Bill is interested in getting into the deep end and tossing aside sane behavior in order to chase down elusive shots that is a different story. He will be happy being unhappy learning the way. Otherwise I say superauto brings immediate satisfaction.
John F
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What good is it to advise somebody to get an intricate set up that requires thousands of hours of work (to learn how to use to the best of it's potential), tie them into something that requires obsessive levels of attention and hands on practice to master...when they can get a one button push machine that will actually give them everything they want immediately?
John F
John, I can't help but agree with your reasoning. I've basically already told him the same thing and have left the door open to purchasing a good superauto. He (my step-dad) is a vice president of a manufacturing company in the Pittsburgh area and he travels a lot. I told him that unless he plans on spending coutless hours getting dialed in with a new machine and grinder, a superauto is an attractive option. Okay, then which superauto would you recommend in the $1,500(ish) price range??? I've had my eye on this one: http://www.espresso-machine-superstore.com/p/bosch-benvenuto-b30-fully-automatic-coffee-center-espresso-machine (http://www.espresso-machine-superstore.com/p/bosch-benvenuto-b30-fully-automatic-coffee-center-espresso-machine)
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That is a very good point John.
We answered as if it was US buying a setup for $1500.
I hate super autos, but you are completely right. If this is for him and his friends as they hang out, and the switch is because of recent membership at AA...
Then a solid super auto that can dispense a drink for the hand in a jiffy is exactly what is called for!
That said I want to drop a comment on the E-61. It is a fantastic grouphead. It is not the "best" as that is an irrelevant title. It was designed and intended to use just mass and the circulating heat transfer (from the water) to stabilize temperatures by Faema. That current trend of double boiler plus E-61 is an almost counter productive thing that is being done for the home enthusiasts.
Due to the way water circulates in an E-61 head you have to flush it. so if you actually do manage to have an extremely stable brew water due to a dedicated boiler, you really are not doing yourself a favor there unless you flush a large amount, and regulate the E-61 down to the lowest temp the cooling flush achieves (near boiler). Do any shorter of a flush and it is the same deance as an HX dance.
As a matter of fact even bottoming out the flush is the same, except that with an HX the bottom of the flush is always too cold...
A large mass via direct circulation is the actual logical mating to a dedicated brew boiler. (LM and Synesso both do and understand just that.)
The E-61 on a double boiler is an exclusive artifact of home machine evolution going from small HX (where the E-61 models were better) and making double boiler versions of them. (Brewtus, domobar)
Still awesome machines, and the preinfusion and de facto presence of the mass can justify it. However from a conceptual engineering standpoint it is patchwork.
While I do not scream for the vivaldi, it having a head that aims at correlated heat to the boiler stability is the same logical approach as Lm and Synesso.
It is often dumbed down as a cooling vs. a warming flush. That really misses the point. One system wanders in a time dependent manner regarding grouphead temp. The other does not. The temperate delta between grouphead and brew water is constant after the machine is warm with the direct designs. E-61 heads wander in a Time between shot dependent manner. That is counterproductive to the idea of a constant brew water temperature. You just reintroduced a flush where flush length is not really always the same (just like in an HX...)
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What good is it to advise somebody to get an intricate set up that requires thousands of hours of work (to learn how to use to the best of it's potential), tie them into something that requires obsessive levels of attention and hands on practice to master...when they can get a one button push machine that will actually give them everything they want immediately?
John F
John, I can't help but agree with your reasoning. I've basically already told him the same thing and have left the door open to purchasing a good superauto. He (my step-dad) is a vice president of a manufacturing company in the Pittsburgh area and he travels a lot. I told him that unless he plans on spending coutless hours getting dialed in with a new machine and grinder, a superauto is an attractive option. Okay, then which superauto would you recommend in the $1,500(ish) price range??? I've had my eye on this one: [url]http://www.espresso-machine-superstore.com/p/bosch-benvenuto-b30-fully-automatic-coffee-center-espresso-machine[/url] ([url]http://www.espresso-machine-superstore.com/p/bosch-benvenuto-b30-fully-automatic-coffee-center-espresso-machine[/url])
Well if you want to go that route then you might want to check out these too:
http://www.wholelattelove.com/Saeco/RoyalPro.cfm
http://www.wholelattelove.com/Gaggia/platinumswing.cfm
Hope that helps.
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Okay, then which superauto would you recommend in the $1,500(ish) price range???
I really have no idea. :-\
I would read CG reviews I guess on the ones in the price range...but I think I would find out what brand has the best customer service and weight the choice towards that.
Also do an Alt.coffee search once you have it down to 2-3 choices.
I just don't know much about them to say anything about the models other than I have had a decent shot from a big Jura one time.
John F
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I had a Saeco Royal. I have never owned any other super autos. Measured against hypothetical expectations that was just plain shit.
But keep in mind that I have no supers to compare it to. I walked away concluding that super auto's do not make espresso in general.
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I walked away concluding that super auto's do not make espresso in general.
They can.....but there you go thinking the shots are for you again. :P
;D
John F
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I like John's logic.
I obsess over espresso, I chase it and manipulate it, pull it's worst and using average abilities try to get its best, I think about it, sometimes scheme about it and more often than not wonder what "it " is. Looking back I realize that sometimes staying out of the rabbit hole is the best choice.
I've pulled countless shots and there are times when the espresso just isn't working for me, this morning was a perfect example of un-great espresso. Granted I'm fairly critical (as is John) the coffee mojo was weakened because I'd tried a tweak in my roasting profile and it just isn't working out. We suffered the consequences this morning. I suspect 99% of the population would have been happy with the four-ouncers but we weren't. Of course a majority of the coffee population doesn't know there is a rabbit hole.
The advantage to my setup vs a super-auto would be that I can manipulate to a greater degree and try to make the coffee work. For the average coffee drinker that level of degree would be a detriment, I think.
Perhaps the best espresso machine advice for the casual coffee drinker is the one that points them to a system that is not the sports car of espresso machines but rather the finger is pointed at a reliably average performer that neither highlights the best of the coffee or the worst, it simply tastes like "good coffee" to them all the time - no matter how old the coffee is, how clean they keep the machine, how often it is calibrated, or how little they know about espresso. That ain't my machine, that's for sure and I'm not sure which one allows for glaring espresso mistakes, maybe it's super-auto's?
Until the day that we all own a "replicator" just like the one we've all see in Star Trek, where we can say Espresso and it magically assembles itself in front of us, it continues to be an individual path down multiple rabbit holes that we occasionally pop our heads out of to see what all the other coffee folks are drinking. The burning question for the replicator guy responsible for replicator profiles remains; when creating the exact same espresso for every man, woman and child he is left wondering... What's espresso supposed to taste like? Chicken or chocolate or spiced green cardamom with a hint of salted macadamia nuts and an underlying sweet double cream? Who gets to be Willie Wonka in the global espresso factory? Hopefully not me, I'll be too busy not using my replicator because I'm fussing around in the corner of my kitchen with a really old shiny block of metal, sometimes shaking my head and other times smiling.
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....What's espresso supposed to taste like? Chicken or chocolate or spiced green cardamom with a hint of salted macadamia nuts and an underlying sweet double cream? Who gets to be Willie Wonka in the global espresso factory? Hopefully not me, I'll be too busy not using my replicator because I'm fussing around in the corner of my kitchen with a really old shiny block of metal, sometimes shaking my head and other times smiling....
That's a funny/good way of putting it, Shaun. There are some people (like you and me - although you have much better gear ;)) who like the journey and variations that true espresso brings - and there are others (like my step-dad) who will probably be happy with consistent mediocrity. I think for him, a superauto is the way to go - now I just need to find a good one.....
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I roast espresso on occasion for a fellow that has a Jura Capresso Superautomatic E8. I monkeyed with it a little so that it was extracting my lighter (FC+ rather than the Vienna/French that it was engineered for) roasts well without blonding too badly. I am fascinated that this thing keeps working for him - I have seen lots of refurbished units which makes me think that there must be a lot that don't last very long.
On the other hand, another local guy bought a single group Simonelli with grinder from a cart that was closing for $500. He is pleased as punch with it, even when he pulls shots that I wouldn't drink, so there is that element to consider. Many (grampa/brother-in-law/uncle bill)-type users will be very satisfied with a substandard shot out of a commercial machine*, and the maintenance is a lot cheaper and easier than a superauto (which very often is $h!+canned when it fails).
*remember what they are used to from Charducks and the like... even when they are pulling a blond/channeled 12 second shot due to a poor grind setting or uneven tamping, they are probably using better coffee (if they are getting it from you) and just the 'made it yourself' factor always improves the flavor a tad. ;)
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This has become an interesting thread for me, as I'm in the situation with a good friend in the DC area. He was brought up on Israeli coffee, and is always asking me if I can roast an espresso sample for him. He drinks mostly espresso, has a super-auto, and currently drinks Illy. I thought about roasting up a batch of either the Becore I got from Greg, or some of Dr. John's Malabar Gold. However, I'm such a perfectionist, I'd never let a batch go out that wasn't optimal for the brew type. I don't want anybody saying Woody's FinerGrind isn't the finest coffee they've had, so I've put him off until I'm sure what he gets is exceptional. The super-auto does it all - grinds, doses, tamps, pulls 1 or 2 shots into a glass. I spoke to him yesterday - the same thing - when are you gonna roast me a sample!
So... with the thread going toward the super-auto, how can I be sure what he taste, will be close to what I do manually in my Elli. The Becore is choco-cherry with good creama and the Malabar is 80 percent red/gold creama with deep choco-bitter flavor.
I should send him a pound of Intelli-Black Cat and be done with it...
Woody
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how can I be sure what he taste, will be close to what I do manually in my Elli.
Impossible.
Send him a sample and say "this is something I'm testing...not sure how it will pull on your machine try it and let me know what you think."
John F
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You should send him...
over to John's place. ;-)
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You should send him...
over to John's place. ;-)
If he shows up tonight it's gonna be a shock because I'm about to build some fru fru drinks if I can get some time. ;D
John F
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If he shows up tonight it's gonna be a shock because I'm about to build some fru fru drinks if I can get some time. ;D
John F
You go, milk boy.
;D
I'm only posting, 'cuz Jeff said I should.
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You go, milk boy.
I'll repeat...you don't know the half of it.
10 hours ago I was offered (not just me but all of us in milk club) an option to buy a share of one of the cows pictured in THE milk thread that are hanging out under the basketball goal.
I'm seriously considering it.
You guys would probably cry getting back on the plane and having to fly away from this milk. :P
John F
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I'll repeat...you don't know the half of it.
10 hours ago I was offered (not just me but all of us in milk club) an option to buy a share of one of the cows pictured in THE milk thread that are hanging out under the basketball goal.
I'm seriously considering it.
You guys would probably cry getting back on the plane and having to fly away from this milk. :P
John F
Actually John ... I know where you are coming from ... raw milk from grass fed cows has no equivalent in taste, nutrition, and cleanliness and could be locally accessible and sustainable. I wish I still had access to it for myself.
:icon_salut:
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Actually John ... I know where you are coming from ... raw milk from grass fed cows has no equivalent in taste, nutrition, and cleanliness and could be locally accessible and sustainable.
To make it wilder we did a milk shoot out with 2 raw milks from different farms and they are certainly different. Both excellent but one is better.
If I buy the share it will be the better of the 2 milks that is slightly sweeter and gets the nod as the best one....so far. ;)
John F
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Actually John ... I know where you are coming from ... raw milk from grass fed cows has no equivalent in taste, nutrition, and cleanliness and could be locally accessible and sustainable.
To make it wilder we did a milk shoot out with 2 raw milks from different farms and they are certainly different. Both excellent but one is better.
If I buy the share it will be the better of the 2 milks that is slightly sweeter and gets the nod as the best one....so far. ;)
John F
What's the dealio?
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What's the dealio?
Hahaha!
Wanna buy a cow?
;D
If he was just a little bit closer I would have bought us a share this am.
The drop is just so convenient....decisions, decisions. :-\
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Dilemma, can it live in my backyard? ;-)
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Dilemma, can it live in my backyard? ;-)
We would only own one share of the cow.....your idea is gross. :icon_puke_r:
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LOL at all of this, I would suggest that if John were not a (competent and motivated) cheese head, well maybe you are both just looking for trouble with this, but given that he has some skills that would put the rest of the milk to work, well, awesome!
Go for it John, at least try it once. What a great opportunity you have there. If you have the cash to spare, just do it, if only this one time.
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I can just see John-boy now, skipping out to the barn to milk the cow, with his stool and frothing pitcher in hand. ;D
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You guys are overestimating what your share gets you.
The cow stays put on the farm with the farmers and all of that stays the same. When you buy a share of a racehorse or a pro poker player they don't come stay at your house and eat out of your fridge. :P
Cows are like poker players....
John F
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Cows are like poker players....
John F
Except they don't have opposable thumbs so won't be able to deal very well.
How are they pitching the share, does the math make sense? Driving down there is inconvenient, I'd buy two shares to get one share delivered to the front door.
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Except they don't have opposable thumbs so won't be able to deal very well.
How are they pitching the share, does the math make sense? Driving down there is inconvenient, I'd buy two shares to get one share delivered to the front door.
Shaun ... its not always convenient to acquire health promoting food.
;D
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Except they don't have opposable thumbs so won't be able to deal very well.
How are they pitching the share, does the math make sense? Driving down there is inconvenient, I'd buy two shares to get one share delivered to the front door.
Shaun ... its not always convenient to acquire health promoting food.
;D
Uhmmmmmm, yeah, I kinda got that, ohhhhhhh about 25yrs ago.
Think you could drive down and get it for us?
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How are they pitching the share, does the math make sense?
It's a fair price...but driving down there is a problem.
To toss this thread totally off orbit and deal the double hijack card I just scored a Kombucha scoby baby from a lady just a few miles north of us. 8)
Saved about a months worth of harvesting and step up cultivating that I was going to start on tomorrow.
Sweet!
John F
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How are they pitching the share, does the math make sense?
It's a fair price...but driving down there is a problem.
To toss this thread totally off orbit and deal the double hijack card I just scored a Kombucha scoby baby from a lady just a few miles north of us. 8)
Saved about a months worth of harvesting and step up cultivating that I was going to start on tomorrow.
Sweet!
John F
Perf!
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Uhmmmmmm, yeah, I kinda got that, ohhhhhhh about 25yrs ago.
Think you could drive down and get it for us?
No problem ... buy me the return plane fare and I'll get right on it.
;D
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It's a fair price...but driving down there is a problem.
To toss this thread totally off orbit and deal the double hijack card I just scored a Kombucha scoby baby from a lady just a few miles north of us. 8)
Saved about a months worth of harvesting and step up cultivating that I was going to start on tomorrow.
Sweet!
John F
Thanks for reminding me John ... I have a couple in the fridge which I still haven't got around to processing yet.
:-\
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To toss this thread totally off orbit and deal the double hijack card I just scored a Kombucha scoby baby from a lady just a few miles north of us. 8)
Saved about a months worth of harvesting and step up cultivating that I was going to start on tomorrow.
Sweet!
John F
what are joo talkin' about? Kombucha scoby baby?
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what are joo talkin' about? Kombucha scoby baby?
Exactly. ;D
http://www.seedsofhealth.co.uk/fermenting/kombucha.shtml
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what are joo talkin' about? Kombucha scoby baby?
Exactly. ;D
[url]http://www.seedsofhealth.co.uk/fermenting/kombucha.shtml[/url]
Dude, that's some funky stuff!!! What exactly does that do for you??? Wouldn't a good multi-vitamin give you the same benefits???
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what are joo talkin' about? Kombucha scoby baby?
Exactly. ;D
[url]http://www.seedsofhealth.co.uk/fermenting/kombucha.shtml[/url]
Dude, that's some funky stuff!!! What exactly does that do for you??? Wouldn't a good multi-vitamin give you the same benefits???
It has some unique nutrients that you cannot obtain anywhere else as well as detoxes and does various other wonderful things:
http://www.kombucha.org/
;D
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Wouldn't a good multi-vitamin give you the same benefits???
No, not me because you just take the vitamin out of the bottle and swallow one per day. It's not enough to "do" for the benefits I get from the projects I take on. ;)
John F
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Wouldn't a good multi-vitamin give you the same benefits???
No, not me because you just take the vitamin out of the bottle and swallow one per day. It's not enough to "do" for the benefits I get from the projects I take on. ;)
John F
Gut health. Projects take gut health. Probiotics are now being stressed so that you receive/absorb the nutrition that is present in whatever passes its way.
Brother John's Kimbucktoo is probiotic, would be my guess. You can also go probiotics with foods, as my acupuncturist has steered me: lots of kimchee, sauerkraut, pickles, miso soup, kefir, etc. Fermentation reigns.
But, I don't take on projects, despite excellent gut health.
B|Java
PS, Sorry Kev, didn't mean to send your thread down the tunnel of OT
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Well, we finally decided to go the super-auto route and we ended up getting a Jura Capresso Impressa ENA5 (http://www.wholelattelove.com/Capresso/Impressa_ENA5_Black.cfm?CMP=KAC-WLL-Google-JuraENA5&gclid=CPTCy7X8x5UCFRKAxgodpwRtjA) today. I've been playing with it all day and I have to say that I'm pretty impressed with it so far. The coffee and even the espresso is far better than I was expecting it to be. The more I play with it, the more I like it.....
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Well, we finally decided to go the super-auto route and we ended up getting a Jura Capresso Impressa ENA5 ([url]http://www.wholelattelove.com/Capresso/Impressa_ENA5_Black.cfm?CMP=KAC-WLL-Google-JuraENA5&gclid=CPTCy7X8x5UCFRKAxgodpwRtjA[/url]) today. I've been playing with it all day and I have to say that I'm pretty impressed with it so far. The coffee and even the espresso is far better than I was expecting it to be. The more I play with it, the more I like it.....
I am trying to remember if that is what the PymentMan bought...
B|Java