Green Coffee Buying Club
Coffee Discussion boards => Hardware & Equipment => Topic started by: BoldJava on August 25, 2008, 03:48:47 PM
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Suggestions? I have been looking at both Bunn and Zojirushi. Thoughts? Thanks, B|Java
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I have what ever Sam's Club sold me for $19.95, its glass vacuum and it keeps pretty hot pretty long. I took it down to the lake for a day of coffee and pottery sales and made AP iced coffees all day
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I have gone the rounds on airpots over the last 5 years... I have finally settled on 2.5L Bunn Model 32125, which is a stainless steel lined airpot with a handle pump. This decision was not arrived at lightly...
I went through multitudes of glass-lined airpots. They break too often when you do a lot of transporting, and the newer stainless models have just as good insulation. About 2-3 years ago I started using some imported 2.2L airpots from espressoparts.com that would frequently go on sale for about $15 each when purchased in lots of 6. There were 2 small problems with these:
1) These would vapor-lock when steam would condense in the pump, which would then cause the pressure from the heat to force the coffee out as a dribble, even when the device was in the 'closed' setting.
2) They were just a little bit small for my tastes. I wanted something bigger.
Then I switched to Oggi 3.0L stainless airpots, which I was getting at Bed, Bath, and Beyond - everytime they would send me a decent coupon (e.g. $10 off a $30 purchase, 25% off, etc.) These were great! The retail price just went from $40 to $45, though. The problem I had with them is that my Bunn Airpot brewer seems to have a sweet spot for 2.5L batches, and the recovery for 3L is long enough to where I can get 15L quicker with six 2.5L airpots than with five 3L airpots. The Oggi is slightly less insulated, too.
The local Cash-N-Carry has the Bunn 2.5L airpots for about $35 each, and I found them to have the best insulation properties of any airpot so far. If I brew coffee for an evening theater performance, the coffee is still hot enough the following morning so that most coffee heathens wouldn't know the difference. They do not dribble at all. The hand pump is more durable than the bellows kind of thing that the Oggi and most other airpots have, and seems to deliver faster when I am belting out cups during intermission.
I have tried many other airpots, but I am doubtful that one will beat out the Bunn in the realms of price, durability, and insulation.
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I bought a case of 6 Bunn 3L airpots for the church. These are excellent units. Of course, they go well with the Bunn dual brewer I got via Craigslist (the evening I rendezvoused to pick it up, though, sure is a peculiar story).
I do like the Bunn design -- a lot -- and I've identified no shortcomings at all (I do several pots in them weekly). I'm not qualified to give any comparisions with other models from other manufacturers, though; I've had no experience at all with other airpots.
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I like the Zoj because of the glass lining (taste not durability).
I swear I can detect an off-taste in the Bunn SS units, as well as other vessels, but maybe I am just a weirdo.
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I agree with Chris. SS definitely affects coffee flavor within a half hour. Breakability, in a church setting (such violent people! ;-) was a factor in my decision to go with SS. In a perfect world, I'd've chosen glass.
That's one shortcoming of the Bunn, I guess!
Fortunately, a batch of coffee at the church lasts no longer than half an hour.
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Stainless steel will facilitate catalytic reactions, and affect the flavor of coffee, if it is cleaned using chemicals which leave the surface activated. The solution to this is to not use cleaning compounds, and allow the surfaces to become 'conditioned'. When I am through with a pot, I triple-rinse with hot water. Before the next batch is brewed, I fill the airpot with very hot water (at least 175?) to heat it up. The first couple of batches in a new airpot will have some of the flavor change that Chris describes, which I believe is actually chemical reduction (gain of electrons) of some of the more reactive compounds. Once the surface is conditioned, this no longer happens.
Glass really needs to be cleaned with chemicals or it will begin to taste skanky, and will actually start salting up with metals and organics that cling to deprotonated hydroxyl groups on the glass, facilitating further gunk. Stainless can be well-maintained using only very hot water.
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...organics that cling to deprotonated hydroxyl groups on the glass, facilitating further gunk.
This general class of locution should be posted more often in the forum. As one might guess, it's a google hapax (http://www.google.com/search?q=%22facilitating+further+gunk%22+&sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS284US284).
The unanticipated turn from the erudite to the colloquial is a stroke of literary genius.
I shall devise thee brave punishments. ;-)
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The unanticipated turn from the erudite to the colloquial is a stroke of literary genius.
'Gunk' is, in fact, sophisticated technical terminology - hardly colloquial. I have heard Nobel-laureate chemists use 'gunk' in the same sentence as words that I probably couldn't even spell.
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Well, what's sophisticated to some is colloquial to others of us. ;-)
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I wonder if overkill is an issue. If I were to buy a 3L pot, filled it with just 2L of coffee, does that airspace cool the coffee. Another words, is overkill an issue?
B|Java
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I wonder if overkill is an issue. If I were to buy a 3L pot, filled it with just 2L of coffee, does that airspace cool the coffee. Another words, is overkill an issue?
B|Java
The coffee will stay hot longer if there is no headspace. That's part of the reason that I went to the 2.5L airpots.
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The airspace is insulative.
At our church, I opted for a case of 6 3L units (as mentioned), for this reason: rather than have two large 6 liter Fetco units (which would do nicely for serving), the smaller airpots allowed for serving two or more varieties of coffee at a time. Smaller batches means opportunity to shake things up a bit.
For one of the services, I only do a liter (manual pourover) of decaf, so that's 2L headroom. No thermal problem for the duration of the serving time (folks generally get their second cup, if they want it, within 20 minutes of their first). At cleanup time, the coffee's always still hot -- and I don't preheat the airpots.
Personally, I think it's better to have more smaller airpots than fewer larger ones, but that's 'cause I like to foist variety where possible. It's also good for large events, because you can have a couple brewing at any given time, while having 4 (in our case) in service.
What's the basic plan for the thing's (or the things') use?
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rasqual sputtered:
The airspace is insulative.
Air is a lousy insulator.
Coffee has a much greater heat capacity than air. More kinetic energy is stored in an airpot that is full than one that is 1/2 or 2/3rds full. The energy will be lost at almost exactly the same rate whether it is full or half-full, as the entire vessel (glass or stainless) is transferring the heat to the surrounding environment. There is less energy to lose in the 1/2 full airpot.
Take 2 identical airpots, fill one of them all the way up and the other half-full, both with 195? coffee. Let them sit for 6 hours. Then tell me which one is hotter. I have plenty of empirical proof that the full one will be much hotter.
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What's the basic plan for the thing's (or the things') use?
Home and office use. I have a 1L Zojirushi that I use in the mornings. The next one will be just for our office use on special occasions, once a month, when we gather as a group, as the 1L is too small for the hounds.
After this discussion, I am going to go smaller rather than larger on unit. Probably a 2 or 2.5L. In either case, I will buy the model that is compatible with the pourover arrangements. Who knows what the future brings.
Thanks gents. You have me looking at stainless as well, something I would have never considered.
B|Java
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Take 2 identical airpots, fill one of them all the way up and the other half-full, both with 195? coffee. Let them sit for 6 hours.
Can't. Thankfully, everyone drinks the contents within a half hour. ;-)
However, I can speak of a coffee shop that has timers on its airpots so you know how old the coffee is. I can also say I've seen an employee reset the timers when he thought no one was looking. ::)
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Done. Switched to the Bunn line, stainless steel. 2.5 liters. $39 at this restaurant supply outfit out of Tennessee:
http://www.katom.com/021-321250000.html
Thanks again, won't be lugging the coffee paraphernelia to the office anymore. Just the airpot. B||Java
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Katom is a great place - I got a gourmet basket for my Bunn airpot brewer from them.
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Slightly OT--do any of you airpot folks have recommended brewers? Looking for a pour-over variety. Danke.
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Slightly OT--do any of you airpot folks have recommended brewers? Looking for a pour-over variety. Danke.
I have a Bunn CW15-APS that is a pourover and works like a champ. Brand new they are about $330 if you look around, but you will probably find one used for $150 or so. The only shortcoming is that the supplied plastic funnel (brew basket) is a tiny bit too small, so you need a Gourmet 'C' basket (made by Bunn) that allows for a larger filter and won't overflow so easily. The C basket is stainless, so it will not warp, either. [The plastic one probably doesn't warp if used as intended, but if you overfill the basket with fresh homeroast, and it blooms a whole bunch, it can put enough downward pressure to cause the basket to slightly warp and pop off the holder, making a hellacious mess. Had this happen a couple of times and it was not a happy event, hence the larger, stainless basket]
I also have a Bloomfield 8773 airpot brewer that is okay but works slower. It is a pourover but may also be attached to a dedicated water supply (I think it works faster then... need to try it). I got that one on eBay for about $80 including shipping. I picked up an inline filtration system for it this morning, in fact, so I'll probably be permanently installing that one in my basement.
Most of these have adjustable batch size and temperature. I have the Bunn set up to run at about 204?F in the basket, which makes really great coffee (but it does boil like crazy in the reservoir at this temperature - this is higher than they tell you to set it - the control is mainly meant to adjust for boiling temperature at higher elevations). The specs are 1.9L to 3.0L batches, but the recovery seems to be ideal at 2.5L or less. At this size and temperature I can knock out airpots in about 8 minutes. People make such a fuss about Technivorms and proper brewing temperature, but you really can get the same quality out of one of these if you tweak the settings.
One of these days I want to get a Fetco extractor that does 1 gallon batches, but not until I find one for cheap on craigslist or at an auction. I believe that they are more efficient - but a Bunn CW15-APS will do everything you need it to for most circumstances, and get you about 4 gallons an hour of top-notch brew.
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Slightly OT--do any of you airpot folks have recommended brewers? Looking for a pour-over variety. Danke.
Hi Chad, I just started using my Newco OCS-12, which I bought via the discount option arranged by Joe for GCBC (thanks Joe!). It is cheap, very easy to use, and brews great coffee. I use it to brew at 8 cups instead of 12 and that is just perfect for the 4 coffee drinkers in my home for our morning caffeine fix. It's great that the coffee stays hot for a few hours after brewing. I bought 2 extra carafes (which, by the way are really well designed) and I make three full 12-cup batches just before my visitors arrive so I can enjoy the party with them the whole time instead of having to miss some of it while I fuss about making coffee after the meal.
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Hey Buttwhiskers,
I have a question for you since we basically have the same Bunn brewer; I like my coffee on the strong side but feel like my machine brews rather weak. What amount of coffee do you usually use to brew in your particular machine?
Shep
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Stainless steel will facilitate catalytic reactions, and affect the flavor of coffee, if it is cleaned using chemicals which leave the surface activated. The solution to this is to not use cleaning compounds, and allow the surfaces to become 'conditioned'. ...The first couple of batches in a new airpot will have some of the flavor change that Chris describes, which I believe is actually chemical reduction (gain of electrons) of some of the more reactive compounds. Once the surface is conditioned, this no longer happens.
Glass really needs to be cleaned with chemicals or it will begin to taste skanky, and will actually start salting up with metals and organics that cling to deprotonated hydroxyl groups on the glass, facilitating further gunk. Stainless can be well-maintained using only very hot water.
The Bunn came today. Very well made. Do you suggest about 2 pots to condition it? Getting a brush to use without soap...bristled coffee pot cleaner, ~$12 at restaurant supply company, with bristles on the bottom of the brush as well.
B|Java
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Stainless steel will facilitate catalytic reactions, and affect the flavor of coffee, if it is cleaned using chemicals which leave the surface activated. The solution to this is to not use cleaning compounds, and allow the surfaces to become 'conditioned'. ...The first couple of batches in a new airpot will have some of the flavor change that Chris describes, which I believe is actually chemical reduction (gain of electrons) of some of the more reactive compounds. Once the surface is conditioned, this no longer happens.
Glass really needs to be cleaned with chemicals or it will begin to taste skanky, and will actually start salting up with metals and organics that cling to deprotonated hydroxyl groups on the glass, facilitating further gunk. Stainless can be well-maintained using only very hot water.
The Bunn came today. Very well made. Do you suggest about 2 pots to condition it? Getting a brush to use without soap...bristled coffee pot cleaner, ~$12 at restaurant supply company, with bristles on the bottom of the brush as well.
B|Java
Dave,
It should condition itself through use - I never do anything additional outside of my regular use, although you will notice that the flavor is more stable after a couple of pots have gone through it.
I rarely use brushes, only hot water. I would use a brush if coffee sat in the airpot for longer than a day or so, but normally I dump any remnants while it is still hot, rinse with hot water, then fill the airpot back up with hot water and allow it to set until the foam and bubbles stop rising (10-15 minutes), then I dump it and store it empty. My hot tap water is 170?F in my house, which helps...
-Greg
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My hot tap water is 170?F in my house, which helps...
-Greg
That is one hot shower :o
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My hot tap water is 170?F in my house, which helps...
-Greg
That is one hot shower :o
That was the only way to keep from running out of hot water when I had two teenage daughters living in the house. I could probably turn it down, but I've got it so well insulated and have become so used to it that I'll just be an environmental criminal and leave it like that. >:D
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OK, so I am not an engineer. That is my brother.
Can't figure out, even with the diagram, how to clean the 'bellow cap, bellows, and plate.' Even WITH the diagram.
I assume that is all inside the cap but nothing seems to budge and I don't want to horse on it. Where do I begin?
I was going to put the pdf up here but Bunn ungraciously doesn't have it on the site...grrrr...
B|Java
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OK, so I am not an engineer. That is my brother.
Can't figure out, even with the diagram, how to clean the 'bellow cap, bellows, and plate.' Even WITH the diagram.
I assume that is all inside the cap but nothing seems to budge and I don't want to horse on it. Where do I begin?
I was going to put the pdf up here but Bunn ungraciously doesn't have it on the site...grrrr...
B|Java
I have never cleaned this on a Bunn. When some knucklehead left half a dozen of my old stainless airpots (from espressoparts) laying on their sides with coffee still in them, I had to clean the bellows on those because coffee got inside of them - it was a major PITA. If you are using your Bunn airpots correctly, nothing other than air should ever get inside the bellows, and I would think that cleaning them would be an undue strain with the risk of breaking something.
The only things that coffee should ever come into contact with in your Bunn airpots are the stem and the liner. If you never let those sit with coffee in them for very long (over 3 or 4 hours), they will clean up just fine with very hot water.
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Suggestions? I have been looking at both Bunn and Zojirushi. Thoughts? Thanks, B|Java
This is amusing. Remember my Zoj vs. Bunn debate? Seems there is no difference.
Today, when I emailed Bunn re: the unintelligible directions and instructions on cleaning the bellows on each use, I got this reply from Bunn:
Hello Mr ZenBunn, thank you for contacting Bunn Commercial Services, I have a fax instructions send to me by www.zojirusi.com they are not so clear and have not been able to find the manual on their site, I e-mailed them and hope to heard from them soon, meanwhile, here is what I found at their site I hope this helps you, please let me know, you could e-mail service and support in any event please keep me posted, thanks.
http://www.zojirushi.com/ourproducts/airpots/aape.html
Commercial Technical Services
Bunn-O-Matic, Corp.
1400 Stevenson Drive
Springfield, IL. 62703
1-800-637-8606
B|Java
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You didn't get the model number that I was talking about if it is like those Zoji's. The Bunn model that I described (32125) is a lever-action. Those Zoji's in your link are press-pumps.
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You didn't get the model number that I was talking about if it is like those Zoji's. The Bunn model that I described (32125) is a lever-action. Those Zoji's in your link are press-pumps.
I got the model you suggested. It is pictured in my post, earlier in the thread. The link you noted is Bunn's link back to me, not mine.
B|Java