Custom Handmade Italian Grinder. Thoughts?

[Warrior372]

Okay, so I want to get everyone's opinion on this piece of equipment. I am looking for a handmade brand of espresso grinder to sell along with the Bosco espresso machines. I am looking for quality hand craftsmanship and function over form. I fully realize that when you are using your hands, the end product looks much different than what a dye and press can make. With that, please give me your these grinders configurations and the picture of the grinder below.

It comes in 4 main configurations. They are in order from least to most expensive.

The First is:
.40HP Motor
64mm Flat Burrs
900 RPM
Doser
Weight = 40lbs

The Second is:
.60HP Motor
75mm
900 RPM
Doserless
Weight =  42lbs

The Third is:
.60HP Motor
75mm Flat Burrs
900 RPM
Weight = 44lbs

The Fourth is:
.80 HP Motor
75mm Flat Burrs
600 RPM
Weight = 49lbs

If you are unfamiliar with the motor HP, RPM and burr size of current high-end grinders check here for something to compare these to: http://www.espressoparts.com/EspressoGrinders .

The cases are all handmade out of Iron and each is custom painted per customer, with chrome and gold plating being optional. The buyer can also specify if they want a timer switch or an on/off with automatic fill. Finally, you can get the power knob and doser handle on the right or left.

I have already asked him if he can make them without the plastic tampers on the front, if he can use conical burrs and if they can cut down the bean hopper. I know the whole conical burr thing is a little controversial, but I thought I would ask him anyway. A lot of people say the motor RPM matters a lot more and the function of the conical burr is the be able to pull the beans into the blade at a really low RPM, 350-550.

Please give me your feedback as to what you would pay retail for these grinders. Also, if there is something you think I missed while asking them about what they can and cannot do please share.

Here is a picture of one.

[Ascholten]

Go with the .6 hp motor.  That way you have the overhead when you need it and less of a chance to stall the motor out if you get the blades too close.  (granted that is not a good thing either but stalled motor when you turn the power switch off draws a huge arc across it, causes it to wear out very quickly).    You just want the robustness in the motor.     Id like the .8 but now were talking more weight and significantly more cost.  I think the .6 will work fine.

Ditch the tamper.

The plastic chute on top.  Personally i really don't like it, I mean its like.  you just paid several hundred dollars for an awesome grinder, hand made, custom this, custom that, the container for the ground up grounds is .. looks professional,  and here you have this cheap piece of crap plastic on the top of it.   To me, it really detracts from the beauty of the machine.   But what else is there, unless you have a thicker better grade of plastic and not some cheap high speed shot ABS.   Maybe some design in the plastic or lexan or a better grade of plastic,  a deeper color.  You don't really want any ripples or groovings in it because thats a bugger to clean especially when it gets oily from one of Tex's roasts. 

As for the speed, slower is better, burr size, I do not know enough about that to be really speaking out on it, but would assume bigger is better (but on that more surface area takes more power to run it hence the bigger motor)

I would say add a reverse switch in case you do jam it somehow you can try the reverse run to try to unjam it... or is that not really an issue with coffee grinders?

It does look nice though.

Aaron

Let me edit and add:  Concur on cutting down the hopper on top, you don't need to be storing 5 lbs of beans on top of the thing.  Probably a quarter of that size would be plenty sufficient.

[Warrior372]

If you scroll down the page to block out about 1/2-3/4 of the hopper I think it looks a lot better! I have another picture showing the hopper and either my eyes are playing tricks on me or this a bit darker. Maybe he has a bunch of different colors of plastic he can make the hopper out of too?

So what would you pay for the .60 HP or .80 HP grinders Aaron? I am trying to compare them to the prices of recognizable grinder manufacturers, but do not know if that is fair either way. I am sure these are built better, but I like the look of a cylindrical grinder more personally.

I could only find 2 grinders that runs 75mm flat burrs. The first has .60HP motor and RPM of 800. So, it is arguably worse from a functional perspective and that would be an Anfim Super Caimano which costs $1,600 - $1,795 depending on the site you go to. The second is a Macap M7. It has a 1.07HP motor and an RPM of 1400. Again, arguably worse and they sell for $1,200.

Other grinders stats and prices. Ceado E37 has .50HP motor, 64mm flat burrs and 1400 RPM for $1,299.

[mp]

I vote Fourth with conical 75 mm burrs.

The price would be $800-900 I'd say.

 

[grinderz]

Why shut out the commercial buyers and offer both a short and tall hopper?

[Warrior372]

If a commercial shop wanted to buy it, then of course a large hopper is much more appropriate. I was just critiquing it.

[Warrior372]

I vote Fourth with conical 75 mm burrs.

The price would be $800-900 I'd say.

 

The 75mm is a flat burr. A grinder with a 75mm conical burrs would be around $2,300 with your choice of 71mm conical burrs or 83mm conical burrs (Wow!).

I would not be making money at that price-point, I would actually be losing it factoring in shipping from Italy. Ballpark prices for grinders with similar HP, RPM and burr size sell for $1,200-$1,700 for reference and my guess is the distributors paid about $700-$1,000 for them at their list price.

Does that grinder look like something you would pay $1,200-$1,700 for? I am curious what kind of deal they would give me on a demo machine. I like the handmade aspect, but no one in any forum has ever seen one let alone used one!

[ScareYourPassenger]

Number 4 sounds pretty badass:) Have any pics of the burrs?

[peter]

A key question to ask members, is whether or not 'handmade' is desirable, and how much more value it adds to grinder.  My guess is that 'handmade' is lost on most of us here.

Your grinder an mine are very comparable...  will one of the proposed grinders come close to that performance, even at double the cost?  Or, restated, even if performance is comparable, will anyone be willing to pay twice as much because it is handmade?

[Warrior372]

Number 4 sounds pretty badass:) Have any pics of the burrs?

Not yet. I am working on it though! The guy who makes them does not seem like he uses the internet a whole lot. We are losing things in translation too. Although his English is a heck of a lot better than my Italian!

[Warrior372]

A key question to ask members, is whether or not 'handmade' is desirable, and how much more value it adds to grinder.  My guess is that 'handmade' is lost on most of us here.

Your grinder an mine are very comparable...  will one of the proposed grinders come close to that performance, even at double the cost?  Or, restated, even if performance is comparable, will anyone be willing to pay twice as much because it is handmade?

All good questions. Let me first say that the concept of the site I have made to advertise the Bosco machines centers around high quality and hand craftsmanship. I know a lot of people do not care if something is handmade, hence the prevalence of all the junk made in China so many people own.

With the prices being comparable to a Macap M7 or an Anfim Super Caimano, assuming the performance is the same, I have no idea why someone would not want to buy one. This is again assuming they are looking to spend what an M7 or Super Caimano would cost, $1,200-$1,700 dollars. There are a lot of cafes, especially in Australia, that prefer the Anfim Super Caimano over grinders like Mazzer Roburs. There must be something to that configuration.

I appreciate handmade things that are made by skilled craftsman. I do not care how expensive and advanced a machine is, it will never touch the quality of work a master craftsman can do with their own hands. All a machine will do is allow you to make an okay item quicker at a lower cost. Does that mean our grinders are bad? No, absolutely not. With that said, there is a certain person who wants handmade everything, custom colors and someone they can personally hold accountable and talk to if something goes wrong with what they buy. I will never know, let alone be able to talk to the assembly line worker who screwed the motor into my Wega 6.8. You can personally call or email the owner of this company and buy any replacement part for this grinder at a small fraction of the price EspressoParts.com or the like charge for Mazzer spare parts. You can tell him what is wrong with your grinder and he can tell you what parts you need to fix it and how to do it. That means a lot to me personally. If you showed me two grinders that were both configured identically, produced the same results and cost the same, then told me one was handmade by someone who has been exclusively making espresso machine grinders by hand for 30+ years and one was made on an assembly line by machines. . . which one would I like to buy? I would buy the handmade one 10 out of 10 times.

I bought my Wega 6.8 conik in July. I have been waiting since then for a replacement grinder because somewhere in the manufacturing process a lot of the upper burr holder threads were chipped. Wega said they would replace it when they got the next shipment in. . . . It is December. I am not into that when I spent as much as I did on that grinder.

I still have mixed feelings on the look of it though. . . . .

[ScareYourPassenger]

In the right color they might take on a more modern funky european cool look:)

[BoldJava]

... With that said, there is a certain person who wants handmade everything, custom colors and someone they can personally hold accountable and talk to if something goes wrong with what they buy...

There is nothing wrong with your logic.  That said, you are segmenting the market -- in my opinion, a very limited group.  Those would be priced above my willingness to pay, though I too appreciate handwork.

[Warrior372]

When you are selling niche stuff you have to segment the market. I picked the niche of handmade traditional Italian coffee gear. That is a really, really tight one I know . I also want to try and find a grinder manufacturer who will let me give input into what they do with the grinders design wise. This guy makes them one at a time by hand, so if I want him to tweak this or that it does not seem like he will have a problem with it.

Here is picture of a gray one. . . I still have mixed feelings. Maybe it would look better in chrome or black.

[BoldJava]

When you are selling niche stuff you have to segment the market. I picked the niche of handmade traditional Italian coffee gear. That is a really, really tight one I know...

You are segmenting the market with retail as well.  Margins are tight.  While I admire your philosophy, I have never met an owner/shop who shared that same passion to that degree.  Profits before passion.  I would love to be wrong.

Push on!