If given a choice which would you buy and why?

[John F]

Oh boy ... you and Shaun have become masters of double speak.

I couldn't get this from him ... and you sound like his twin double-speaker.

We are aware that the shots are different ... can you please articulate how and which is better? If not which is better ... which is your preference?

 

I just did. 

And I think I did better than 10,000 words you can read on HB from super articulate tast-o-philes.

You gotta understand how delicate this Bonnie situation is complicated the answer is to the question you are looking for a simple 12 word answer for.

I'll try this and maybe it will work:

If you put a gun to my head and said "58mm pump shots or PVL lever pulls for the rest of your life choose now or die"

I could immediately tell you I choose PVL.

If you said "now tell me exactly why that is a better choice in under 60 seconds or die"  I'd be forced to tell you something that I figured would satisfy your curiosity in order to save my life but it would be a very incomplete answer.  That being said I would have told you the truth in both cases it's just the what is a heck of a lot easier to know/explain than the exact why because things get very intricate/involved once you start going in.

I believe it's ridiculously oversimplifed to say something like pump shots have more body and lever shots have more clarity. I agree with the thought but it's just a reality that people desire a simple answer to the question and any simple answer will leave out much needed detail and wind up somewhat misleading.

Makes you think lever shots lack body right?

Makes you wonder about uncovering muddled clarity of pump shots eh?

Neither of those things are what you should look at because Pizza is not Chardonnay.

Any better?   

[grinderz]

Pump shots have more emulsified oils and suspended solids contributing to...

[John F]

Pump shots occur have more emulsified oils and suspended solids contributing to...

And there is more water in a swimming pool that a hot tub. 

[milowebailey]

Let me first say thank you to Warrior, John F,  Yakster and everyone else, all these posts are invaluable! and a great discussion.

What I think I've learned is that both a small lever, a 58mm lever and a pump have merit and a place, sort of like choosing a sports car.  A carborated early Mustang has so much low-end torque, which I still love, but a Austin Healy has a very different feel, more finesse both like levers in a way.... then you could jump into a new Mustang, Corvette or Porshe and have a very different great ride as well as a reliable car like a PIDed pump machine.

Seems also that I need to spend more time with my small portafilter levers..... I haven't and still have much to learn there.  I have 4 levers, so do I need a 5th or do I even need to replace any or all of them with one that's newer? Maybe the best choice is to get the Conti commercial machine for when I want the new reliable shot...??  That's where I'm leaning right now.

[ScareYourPassenger]

Or just stop upgrading and focus on the weakest link as you just stated.. I think I just sinned.

[milowebailey]

Or just stop upgrading and focus on the weakest link as you just stated.. I think I just sinned.

Yes you did.... I think I'm only an inch down this rabbit hole and it's really deep.

[John F]

Maybe the best choice is to get the Conti commercial machine for when I want the new reliable shot...??

Maybe so but realize there is a big difference between fully manual levers and spring levers like the PVL.

I was talking to Staylor one time about a strange thing about water debit  when I was first starting with the PVL and he said something like "it  just knows".

There is a lot of truth to that in the PVL does seem to exhibit a strange sense of participating in the process that pump machines I've used before do not. I always felt other machines were providing a set of rigid mechanics that we manipulate to get x result. This is obviously still true with the PVL but the spring and temp stability it has over something like a Pavoni give you very repeatable shots.

Where it gets really weird (and I almost hesitate to say this) but when you start changing things the PVL seems to me that it changes with you.    Something like it's working with you and not just for you.... OK, I know that sounds freaky so just ignore all of that and read my main point that spring levers can be very stable/repeatable.

The PVL is very temp stable and gives you the ability to sleepwalk into repeatable shots if you choose.

Don't freak out on that machine coming alive stuff.......but it's true. 

[grinderz]

There goes John getting all "Tao of the Machine" on us again. 

[milowebailey]

Maybe the best choice is to get the Conti commercial machine for when I want the new reliable shot...??

Maybe so but realize there is a big difference between fully manual levers and spring levers like the PVL.

I was talking to Staylor one time about a strange thing about water debit  when I was first starting with the PVL and he said something like "it  just knows".

There is a lot of truth to that in the PVL does seem to exhibit a strange sense of participating in the process that pump machines I've used before do not. I always felt other machines were providing a set of rigid mechanics that we manipulate to get x result. This is obviously still true with the PVL but the spring and temp stability it has over something like a Pavoni give you very repeatable shots.

Where it gets really weird (and I almost hesitate to say this) but when you start changing things the PVL seems to me that it changes with you.    Something like it's working with you and not just for you.... OK, I know that sounds freaky so just ignore all of that and read my main point that spring levers can be very stable/repeatable.

The PVL is very temp stable and gives you the ability to sleepwalk into repeatable shots if you choose.

Don't freak out on that machine coming alive stuff.......but it's true. 

But I already have a Sama Export, which is the earlier, smaller version of the PVL.... it's one of the machines I need to replace the seals..... and find my Tao using it.

[John F]

I almost got the Export.

I would encourage you to rebuild it and explore it a little before getting another machine.

Or to push you a little, yet another machine to attempt to find what might already be in front of you.

 

[expy98]

Maybe the best choice is to get the Conti commercial machine for when I want the new reliable shot...??  That's where I'm leaning right now.

a huge commercial machine = reliable?  Perhaps if you're pulling a shot every 2 minutes continuously

but for your 2+ shots a day, are those 2+ shots any less "reliable" from any one of machines
in your stable vs the Conti?  Do cafes typically pull several shots in the morning to stabilize their
machines before actual use? 

perhaps the resale market for commercial machines in your area is strong but I don't know of any CG types locally
that would even consider a commercial machine for home use.

keep agonizing...

 

[grinderz]

Maybe the best choice is to get the Conti commercial machine for when I want the new reliable shot...??  That's where I'm leaning right now.

a huge commercial machine = reliable?  Perhaps if you're pulling a shot every 2 minutes continuously

but for your 2+ shots a day, are those 2+ shots any less "reliable" from any one of machines
in your stable vs the Conti?  Do cafes typically pull several shots in the morning to stabilize their
machines before actual use? 

perhaps the resale market for commercial machines in your area is strong but I don't know of any CG types locally
that would even consider a commercial machine for home use.

keep agonizing...

Hah! I'm pretty sure Larry has had a veritable parade of commercial 2 groups go through his downstairs coffee cave.

[expy98]

perhaps but that doesn't change the question about "reliability"

[milowebailey]

Maybe reliable wasn't the term I should have used in an ideal sense.  I agree that you may need to run the machine a bit every day.... but you need to do that with a home machine too.  Grind can change every day and even with my Achille, and it seems the second shot is better than the first one of the day.

I've bought 5 commercial machines for home use and have a couple friends who have one at home too.  As I said the end game would be a speedster or Synesso, but that's out of the budget for now.  Of the machines I've had 2 of them I rebuilt, then used them for a year or so and then sold on CL to commercial stands.  I'll probably do that with at least one of the other ones I still have (the Elektra Belle).  Another was part of a pair of machines I bought and I may part it out because it need too much work (Brasilia Mytho) it was paired with the Astoria Lever I'm rebuilding now.

For me it's also about learning.  Espresso is so different than other prep methods and I'm a tinkerer, so if I understand the mechanics of a machine then I feel like I understand what changing parameters should do.  I don't know how many folks who work in the coffee industry don't know what a good shot is or how to move towards a good shot from where they are.  I've helped a few that I know improve their ability by showing them on my machines.  Learning latte art has helped me better understand milk drinks and the difference there too.  I still have lots to learn and that's the deep rabbit hole.

I also roast for a few folks who use commercial machines and it's nice to be able to cup my espresso blend on a commercial machine.  As I've heard over and over on this thread there is clearly a difference between the two.  This is the reason I want a really high end machine at some point.

Again I value all the comments here, thank you!!!

I really appreciate John's suggesting of spending more time with the Sama and La Pavoni before I jump back to a pump.

[expy98]

as long as you can sell them w/out losing money, why not get both?

also, so who is the other person that voted for the Conti? :-)