Author Topic: Espresso Machine & Grinder Recommendation???  (Read 9219 times)

thejavaman

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Espresso Machine & Grinder Recommendation???
« on: May 11, 2008, 01:42:07 PM »
Alright guys, I need some help.  If you had a budget of right around $1,500 and could buy any espresso machine/grinder combination in the world, what would you go with???  I'm thinking about the Nuova Simonelli Oscar & Mazzer Mini combo.  Ideas???  Suggestions???
« Last Edit: May 12, 2008, 10:30:44 AM by thejavaman »

BoldJava

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Re: Espresso Machine & Grinder Recommendation???
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2008, 02:03:26 PM »

thejavaman

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Re: Espresso Machine & Grinder Recommendation???
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2008, 02:06:40 PM »
 ;D :o ;D :o - Uhhh, it's not for me, it's, uhhhh, for some guy I know.....

Seriously, my step-dad (and business partner) is thinking of converting the wet bar in his basement to an espresso bar and he was asking me for suggestions.  I really don't know all the "in's & out's" of quality espresso machines and grinders, and I know some people here probably do - so I figured I would ask....

Stubbie

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Re: Espresso Machine & Grinder Recommendation???
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2008, 06:49:51 PM »
If I had to do it all over again, I would wait it out and find a commercial single group on Craigslist - even one that needed rebuilt.  Monito, Joe, Felix and the others are making me jealous.

Faema single in KC available.  If you'd like me to look at it, I'd be happy to.

I make great espresso out of my Andreja, but wish I didn't have a vibe pump just because of the noise.

-Stubbie

Offline PaulM

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Re: Espresso Machine & Grinder Recommendation???
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2008, 07:01:41 PM »
Thinking about machines I am not up on what is currently available and at what prices, but I did own an Oscar once (ebayed for four hundred and change and sold it for about the same 3 years later), and I liked it a lot, but I'm sure with that budget you can do better. I would look into the Vibiemme Domobar to start, but that is mostly my bias speaking: Vibiemme was an offshoot of Faema, I have an old Faema that I LOVE, and the folks that started "VBM-ay" brought a lot of their know how with them. So I just suggest that as a starting point. I know it generally gets very good reviews, though some of that is model dependent I think.

I'm not up on grinders at all.

Good luck! Sounds like a fun project, especially since the necessary cash is, ahem, not yours....

:)

Paul
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Offline PaulM

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Re: Espresso Machine & Grinder Recommendation???
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2008, 07:11:55 PM »

I make great espresso out of my Andreja, but wish I didn't have a vibe pump just because of the noise.

-Stubbie

You can "outboard" that pump and do away with a lot of the noise you know. Dan Kehn at H-B did that with one of his machines, might even have been an Andreja? There's a thread or two on it over there.

 >:D
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kwksilver

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Re: Espresso Machine & Grinder Recommendation???
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2008, 07:12:55 PM »
Whatever route you go, spend a large chunk of that budget grinding your beans. If you do go with a new machine, I would aim at a brew boiler. Double or not...

If you buy used I am an absolute devotee to the commercial HX. That design is the G Wagen or H1 of espresso machines. A little clunky, a little inaccurate. At the heart though....hard to break.


Though this will be really hard to someone buying his first setup. My split would be fairly extreme.
I would buy a  grinder like the Mahlkoenig/Astoria for a little over a grand.  (K30)

Then I would buy your choice of commercial head (58mm) single boiler for the espresso.

That is under the assumption you do not want to do latte art.

Want latte art?


All the new double boilers will not be adequately matched grinder wise with a 1.5k budget. IMHO.



thejavaman

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Re: Espresso Machine & Grinder Recommendation???
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2008, 07:26:47 PM »
Thanks for the suggestions guys - keep 'em coming....

thejavaman

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Re: Espresso Machine & Grinder Recommendation???
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2008, 07:34:36 PM »
That is under the assumption you do not want to do latte art.

Want latte art?

I'm not concerned with latte art at all right now.  I really just want the best combo out there for the money.

Offline mp

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Re: Espresso Machine & Grinder Recommendation???
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2008, 07:42:34 PM »
Well ... for that budget ... assuming you want to go new ... you could get the Expobar Office Lever and the Mazzer Mini ... that should squeek in there at about 1500 dollars.  This will give you the famed E61 group that the Oscar lacks.  Bezerra also has a model at about $1000.00 that shares parts with the Pasquini Livia.  Oscar is good also ... cannot knock that ... I have a bias for the E61 group.

If you are handy ... you can get (as suggested) a project commercial espresso machine and recondition it for fairly cheap and then blow your brains out on a really expensive grinder.

Hope that helps.

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Offline PaulM

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Re: Espresso Machine & Grinder Recommendation???
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2008, 09:52:47 PM »
Oscar is good also ... cannot knock that ... I have a bias for the E61 group.

If you are handy ... you can get (as suggested) a project commercial espresso machine and recondition it for fairly cheap and then blow your brains out on a really expensive grinder.


FWIW I couldn't agree more. When I said I liked my Oscar I should have mentioned that this was after some modifications I made. NS has some funny ideas about optimal brew temp, IMHO.

I also have a preference for real pre-infusion ala a real E-61 group, and though I can't really explain why, other than to describe my results, I can say for sure that Oscar doesn't have that.

The latest offering from VBM is a dual boiler machine, which though potentially awesome is probably outside of your budget. In my earlier post I was referring to the single boiler e-61 machines.

But do check out the new double boiler domobar (literally, "home bar") as well, who knows, maybe you can pry another grand out of the man, and then, after having played with it for awhile, report back here.

;D >:D ;D >:D ;D
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thejavaman

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Re: Espresso Machine & Grinder Recommendation???
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2008, 05:58:48 AM »
....I also have a preference for real pre-infusion ala a real E-61 group....

Paul, can you explain that a little more to me???  What exactly is an E-61 group???  What do you mean by "real pre-infusion"???

Offline mp

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Re: Espresso Machine & Grinder Recommendation???
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2008, 06:26:46 AM »
....I also have a preference for real pre-infusion ala a real E-61 group....


Paul, can you explain that a little more to me???  What exactly is an E-61 group???  What do you mean by "real pre-infusion"???


You can read all about it here:

http://www.home-barista.com/forums/e61-group-espresso-machine-is-its-reputation-justified-t376.html

In a nut shell the E61 makes great espresso with crema an easily repeatable experience.  This is a technology that Faema invented in the 50's or 60's I think.

Hope that helps.

« Last Edit: May 12, 2008, 06:31:52 AM by mp »
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thejavaman

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Re: Espresso Machine & Grinder Recommendation???
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2008, 06:46:52 AM »
....I also have a preference for real pre-infusion ala a real E-61 group....


Paul, can you explain that a little more to me???  What exactly is an E-61 group???  What do you mean by "real pre-infusion"???


You can read all about it here:

http://www.home-barista.com/forums/e61-group-espresso-machine-is-its-reputation-justified-t376.html

In a nut shell the E61 makes great espresso with crema an easily repeatable experience.  This is a technology that Faema invented in the 50's or 60's I think.

Hope that helps



Thanks for the link MP - that's quite a bit of very technical and extremely detailed information!  You almost need a Ph.D in espresso just to be able to comprehend that.... ;D

Offline John F

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Re: Espresso Machine & Grinder Recommendation???
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2008, 06:54:07 AM »
I've been thinking about this and have a different take. Apologies in advance as this is an answer to the OP but there is a positional rant in here too.

Tell him to get the most superauto he can find for $1,500.

I've started this thread 4 times and deleted it because I'm not sure yet how to support the rest of my idea but the gist of it is this:

If somebody suddenly finds a budget to get an espresso set up but does not know what to get or actually much about coffee other than they like it a lot and have some money to put into it at the hobby level.. a superauto very well might be the best thing they could buy. They are not going to chase shots, roast, track down specific beans work like lunatics in order to find some tiny hitch in their routine that is causing some minor something to happen. They could get a superauto and just go straight to enjoying their coffee and learning to appreciate what the machine produces.

I go into a lot of peoples houses and most people just have a Mr. coffee. On occasion they have a cone or French press..rarely but sometimes they have a grinder to boot.  :-\  Sometimes they have a Kureg or something and on rare occasions they have an espresso set up. I'd say 75% of those are superautos.

An interesting thing I've learned is that if somebody takes one step up from Mr. Coffee they are excited as all get out about their coffee. If all they do is drop Starbucks house blend in a French press they are loving what they get in the cup.

In all of my convo's (and you know I start asking probing questions) I know one guy that roasts on a freshroast and 2 people that order coffee from Intelly and Illy. Everybody else is buying coffee from either Starbucks or from grocery store bins.

Last week I talked to some people that had a superauto they were running decaf Starbucks blend in and they had some non dairy creamer on the counter.... they loved the coffee they were getting. What $1,500 or even $3K set up can we recommend them to pull starbucks decaf and non dairy creamer that they are going to enjoy the cup more from?

I have a customer with a Kureg that brags the thing up so much I almost wanted to buy one myself. I had a cup of Kona from it once. :-[

So....

What good is it to advise somebody to get an intricate set up that requires thousands of hours of work (to learn how to use to the best of it's potential), tie them into something that requires obsessive levels of attention and hands on practice to master...when they can get a one button push machine that will actually give them everything they want immediately?

I just can't help but wonder how much better the coffee would be to them over a time line with a mediocre superauto vs. years of poor shot building with inappropriate beans...

Of course if the Step dad, Brother in law, Uncle Bill is interested in getting into the deep end and tossing aside sane behavior in order to chase down elusive shots that is a different story. He will be happy being unhappy  learning the way. Otherwise I say superauto brings immediate satisfaction.

John F
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