Author Topic: Espresso Machine & Grinder Recommendation???  (Read 9220 times)

thejavaman

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Re: Espresso Machine & Grinder Recommendation???
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2008, 07:28:32 AM »
What good is it to advise somebody to get an intricate set up that requires thousands of hours of work (to learn how to use to the best of it's potential), tie them into something that requires obsessive levels of attention and hands on practice to master...when they can get a one button push machine that will actually give them everything they want immediately?

John F


John, I can't help but agree with your reasoning.  I've basically already told him the same thing and have left the door open to purchasing a good superauto.  He (my step-dad) is a vice president of a manufacturing company in the Pittsburgh area and he travels a lot.  I told him that unless he plans on spending coutless hours getting dialed in with a new machine and grinder, a superauto is an attractive option.  Okay, then which superauto would you recommend in the $1,500(ish) price range???  I've had my eye on this one:  http://www.espresso-machine-superstore.com/p/bosch-benvenuto-b30-fully-automatic-coffee-center-espresso-machine

kwksilver

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Re: Espresso Machine & Grinder Recommendation???
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2008, 10:06:16 AM »
That is a very good point John.
We answered as if it was US buying a setup for $1500.
I hate super autos, but you are completely right. If this is for him and his friends as they hang out, and the switch is because of recent membership at AA...

Then a solid super auto that can dispense a drink for the hand in a jiffy is exactly what is called for!





That said I want to drop a comment on the E-61. It is a fantastic grouphead. It is not the "best" as that is an irrelevant title. It was designed and intended to use just mass and the circulating heat transfer (from the water) to stabilize temperatures by Faema. That current trend of double boiler plus E-61 is an almost counter productive thing that is being done for the home enthusiasts.

Due to the way water circulates in an E-61 head you have to flush it. so if you actually do manage to have an extremely stable brew water due to a dedicated boiler, you really are not doing yourself a favor there unless you flush a  large amount, and regulate the E-61 down to the lowest temp the cooling flush achieves (near boiler). Do any shorter of a flush and it is the same deance as an HX dance.
As a matter of fact even bottoming out the flush is the same, except that with an HX the bottom of the flush is always too cold...

A large mass via direct circulation is the actual logical mating to a dedicated brew boiler. (LM and Synesso both do and understand just that.)

The E-61 on a double boiler is an exclusive artifact of home machine evolution going from small HX (where the E-61 models were better) and making double boiler versions of them.  (Brewtus, domobar)
Still awesome machines, and the preinfusion and de facto presence of the mass can justify it. However from a conceptual engineering standpoint it is patchwork.

While I do not scream for the vivaldi, it having a head that aims at correlated heat to the boiler stability is the same logical approach as Lm and Synesso.
It is often dumbed down as a cooling vs. a warming flush. That really misses the point. One system wanders in a time dependent manner regarding grouphead temp. The other does not.  The temperate delta between grouphead and brew water is constant after the machine is warm with the direct designs. E-61 heads wander in a Time between shot dependent manner. That is counterproductive to the idea of a constant brew water temperature. You just reintroduced a flush where flush length is not really always the same (just like in an HX...)


Offline mp

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Re: Espresso Machine & Grinder Recommendation???
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2008, 10:15:34 AM »
What good is it to advise somebody to get an intricate set up that requires thousands of hours of work (to learn how to use to the best of it's potential), tie them into something that requires obsessive levels of attention and hands on practice to master...when they can get a one button push machine that will actually give them everything they want immediately?

John F


John, I can't help but agree with your reasoning.  I've basically already told him the same thing and have left the door open to purchasing a good superauto.  He (my step-dad) is a vice president of a manufacturing company in the Pittsburgh area and he travels a lot.  I told him that unless he plans on spending coutless hours getting dialed in with a new machine and grinder, a superauto is an attractive option.  Okay, then which superauto would you recommend in the $1,500(ish) price range???  I've had my eye on this one:  http://www.espresso-machine-superstore.com/p/bosch-benvenuto-b30-fully-automatic-coffee-center-espresso-machine


Well if you want to go that route then you might want to check out these too:

http://www.wholelattelove.com/Saeco/RoyalPro.cfm

http://www.wholelattelove.com/Gaggia/platinumswing.cfm

Hope that helps.
1-Cnter, 2-Bean, 3-Skin, 4-Parchmnt, 5-Pect, 6-Pu
lp, 7-Ski

Offline John F

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Re: Espresso Machine & Grinder Recommendation???
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2008, 10:48:04 AM »
Okay, then which superauto would you recommend in the $1,500(ish) price range??? 

I really have no idea.  :-\

I would read CG reviews I guess on the ones in the price range...but I think I would find out what brand has the best customer service and weight the choice towards that.

Also do an Alt.coffee search once you have it down to 2-3 choices.

I just don't know much about them to say anything about the models other than I have had a decent shot from a big Jura one time.

John F
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kwksilver

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Re: Espresso Machine & Grinder Recommendation???
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2008, 10:54:52 AM »
I had a Saeco Royal. I have never owned any other super autos. Measured against hypothetical expectations that was just plain shit.
But keep in mind that I have no supers to compare it to. I walked away concluding that super auto's do not make espresso in general.




Offline John F

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Re: Espresso Machine & Grinder Recommendation???
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2008, 11:05:21 AM »
I walked away concluding that super auto's do not make espresso in general.

They can.....but there you go thinking the shots are for you again.  :P

 ;D

John F
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Offline staylor

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Re: Espresso Machine & Grinder Recommendation???
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2008, 11:37:00 AM »
I like John's logic.

I obsess over espresso, I chase it and manipulate it, pull it's worst and using average abilities try to get its best, I think about it, sometimes scheme about it and more often than not wonder what "it " is. Looking back I realize that sometimes staying out of the rabbit hole is the best choice.

I've pulled countless shots and there are times when the espresso just isn't working for me, this morning was a perfect example of un-great espresso. Granted I'm fairly critical (as is John) the coffee mojo was weakened because I'd tried a tweak in my roasting profile and it just isn't working out. We suffered the consequences this morning. I suspect 99% of the population would have been happy with the four-ouncers but we weren't. Of course a majority of the coffee population doesn't know there is a rabbit hole.

The advantage to my setup vs a super-auto would be that I can manipulate to a greater degree and try to make the coffee work. For the average coffee drinker that level of degree would be a detriment, I think.

Perhaps the best espresso machine advice for the casual coffee drinker is the one that points them to a system that is not the sports car of espresso machines but rather the finger is pointed at a reliably average performer that neither highlights the best of the coffee or the worst, it simply tastes like "good coffee" to them all the time - no matter how old the coffee is, how clean they keep the machine, how often it is calibrated, or how little they know about espresso. That ain't my machine, that's for sure and I'm not sure which one allows for glaring espresso mistakes, maybe it's super-auto's?

Until the day that we all own a "replicator" just like the one we've all see in Star Trek, where we can say Espresso and it magically assembles itself in front of us, it continues to be an individual path down multiple rabbit holes that we occasionally pop our heads out of to see what all the other coffee folks are drinking. The burning question for the replicator guy responsible for replicator profiles remains; when creating the exact same espresso for every man, woman and child he is left wondering... What's espresso supposed to taste like? Chicken or chocolate or spiced green cardamom with a hint of salted macadamia nuts and an underlying sweet double cream? Who gets to be Willie Wonka in the global espresso factory? Hopefully not me, I'll be too busy not using my replicator because I'm fussing around in the corner of my kitchen with a really old shiny block of metal, sometimes shaking my head and other times smiling.


thejavaman

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Re: Espresso Machine & Grinder Recommendation???
« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2008, 12:15:29 PM »
....What's espresso supposed to taste like? Chicken or chocolate or spiced green cardamom with a hint of salted macadamia nuts and an underlying sweet double cream? Who gets to be Willie Wonka in the global espresso factory? Hopefully not me, I'll be too busy not using my replicator because I'm fussing around in the corner of my kitchen with a really old shiny block of metal, sometimes shaking my head and other times smiling....

That's a funny/good way of putting it, Shaun.  There are some people (like you and me - although you have much better gear  ;)) who like the journey and variations that true espresso brings - and there are others (like my step-dad) who will probably be happy with consistent mediocrity.  I think for him, a superauto is the way to go - now I just need to find a good one.....

ButtWhiskers

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Re: Espresso Machine & Grinder Recommendation???
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2008, 10:52:05 AM »
I roast espresso on occasion for a fellow that has a Jura Capresso Superautomatic E8.  I monkeyed with it a little so that it was extracting my lighter (FC+ rather than the Vienna/French that it was engineered for) roasts well without blonding too badly.  I am fascinated that this thing keeps working for him - I have seen lots of refurbished units which makes me think that there must be a lot that don't last very long. 

On the other hand, another local guy bought a single group Simonelli with grinder from a cart that was closing for $500.  He is pleased as punch with it, even when he pulls shots that I wouldn't drink, so there is that element to consider.  Many (grampa/brother-in-law/uncle bill)-type users will be very satisfied with a substandard shot out of a commercial machine*, and the maintenance is a lot cheaper and easier than a superauto (which very often is $h!+canned when it fails). 

*remember what they are used to from Charducks and the like...  even when they are pulling a blond/channeled 12 second shot due to a poor grind setting or uneven tamping, they are probably using better coffee (if they are getting it from you) and just the 'made it yourself' factor always improves the flavor a tad.   ;) 

FinerGrind

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Re: Espresso Machine & Grinder Recommendation???
« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2008, 02:43:53 PM »
This has become an interesting thread for me, as I'm in the situation with a good friend in the DC area.  He was brought up on Israeli coffee, and is always asking me if I can roast an espresso sample for him.  He drinks mostly espresso, has a super-auto, and currently drinks Illy.  I thought about roasting up a batch of either the Becore I got from Greg, or some of Dr. John's Malabar Gold.  However, I'm such a perfectionist, I'd never let a batch go out that wasn't optimal for the brew type.  I don't want anybody saying Woody's FinerGrind isn't the finest coffee they've had, so I've put him off until I'm sure what he gets is exceptional.  The super-auto does it all - grinds, doses, tamps, pulls 1 or 2 shots into a glass.  I spoke to him yesterday - the same thing - when are you gonna roast me a sample!

So... with the thread going toward the super-auto, how can I be sure what he taste, will be close to what I do manually in my Elli.  The Becore is choco-cherry with good creama and the Malabar is 80 percent red/gold creama with deep choco-bitter flavor.

I should send him a pound of Intelli-Black Cat and be done with it...

Woody

Offline John F

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Re: Espresso Machine & Grinder Recommendation???
« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2008, 02:58:34 PM »
how can I be sure what he taste, will be close to what I do manually in my Elli. 

Impossible.

Send him a sample and say "this is something I'm testing...not sure how it will pull on your machine try it and let me know what you think."

John F

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Lee Morrison

Offline staylor

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Re: Espresso Machine & Grinder Recommendation???
« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2008, 03:03:58 PM »
You should send him...

over to John's place. ;-)

Offline John F

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Re: Espresso Machine & Grinder Recommendation???
« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2008, 03:26:18 PM »
You should send him...

over to John's place. ;-)

If he shows up tonight it's gonna be a shock because I'm about to build some fru fru drinks if I can get some time.  ;D

John F
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Lee Morrison

Offline peter

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Re: Espresso Machine & Grinder Recommendation???
« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2008, 03:30:16 PM »
If he shows up tonight it's gonna be a shock because I'm about to build some fru fru drinks if I can get some time.  ;D

John F

You go, milk boy.

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Offline John F

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Re: Espresso Machine & Grinder Recommendation???
« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2008, 03:38:50 PM »
You go, milk boy.


I'll repeat...you don't know the half of it.

10 hours ago I was offered (not just me but all of us in milk club) an option to buy a share of one of the cows pictured in THE milk thread that are hanging out under the basketball goal.

I'm seriously considering it.

You guys would probably cry getting back on the plane and having to fly away from this milk.  :P

John F

 
"At no point should you be in condition white unless you are in your bed sleeping with your doors locked."

Lee Morrison