Vacpots, Q's and A's

[fergusburger]

This is the first thread on vac pots I've read that recommends adding coffee after the hot water moves north.  What's the advantage?  Have you tried it both ways (coffee before water vs coffee after water) and noticed any flavor difference?  Is the primary advantage of this "grounds after" approach that it gives better control over extraction time?  Or better control of temperature? 

Not to yank thread off the Yama track, but in my electric santos the water starts to arrive north with v poor extraction temp (150F) and only gets up to 190 after a minute of gurgling.  By that time if you know the esantos you know it is ready to shut down and head south.  My stovetop santos though operates similar to the Yama - extraction temps are good as soon as it goes north.  Which brings me back to original question...what is the advantage of the "grounds after" approach if the water is the right extraction temp as soon as it goes north?

I gotta try this out...

FB

[BoldJava]

This is the first thread on vac pots I've read that recommends adding coffee after the hot water moves north.  What's the advantage? 

I have tried it both ways.  If you add it before the mass moves north, the temp is lower (as you have noted) and the extraction has a bitterness to it.  As well, (I believe I read this) it will extract more caffeine.

I add the coffee when the steam vapor shows in the north end;  ~10 seconds later comes a whoosh.  This approach offers me the best taste from the variety of "when to add..." approaches I have taken.

Which brings me back to original question...what is the advantage of the "grounds after" approach if the water is the right extraction temp as soon as it goes north?

I used a thermometer and the temp was down around 150 or so as it began to move north and moved up and over 180+ with the whoosh. I do think the max temp I achieved was ~185 but that is with a lot of therm rod exposed to air (as well, the coffee will lower the water temp).  Not sure how exact it is under these circumstances.  My finished pot (off the burner) reads 182. 

Next pot I will wait until the whoosh, measure the temp, and then add the coffee.

Here's the Prince's take on it:

Reapply the heating source, and watch the water start to slowly climb up the siphon. Why do we put the top vessel on only after the bottom water has heated up about 75% of the way? Because this brews a better coffee than if you ground the coffee and assembled everything before first applying heat. If you do it from a cold start, some water will start snaking its way up to the ground coffee by the time the bottom vessel's water temperature is around 75-80C - this leads to poor initial extraction, something that can degrade the final brewed cup of coffee. You want the initial water that hits the ground coffee to be very hot - 90C or higher. This helps prevent the extraction of excessive sour tastes, and also aids in keeping the caffeine extraction down by 5-10%. (Caffeine = bitters in the cup).

As the water climbs up the siphon, start adjusting your heat source lower - you want it so that, when all the brewing water is "up north", you have just enough flame to maintain a tepid boil in the bottom - nothing raging or turbulent. This helps again with maintaining a great brewing temperature. If you're brewing on the stove, do the same thing - if you had your stove set at 7 or 8, turn it down to 3 or 4 on the burning element, or even lower - whatever's need to just barely maintain the boil and production of water vapour.

http://coffeegeek.com/guides/siphoncoffee

B|Java

[headchange4u]

I have tried it both ways.  If you add it before the mass moves north, the temp is lower (as you have noted) and the extraction has a bitterness to it.  As well, (I believe I read this) it will extract more caffeine (which also contributes to an imbalanced taste).





B|Java

That's been my experience with the vac pot. Putting the grounds in before the water has made it to the top can result in some very bitter, nasty tasting brew. If you wait until all the water has moved north and the the bubbling from the bottom pot has calmed down a bit, the water in the top should be at about 195-200 *F, just perfect for extraction, and then add the grounds you end up with a much better cup.

[BoldJava]

After she sipped my Malay Mambo (Sum/Braz) blend yesterday, brewed in a Yama, the Czarina looked over and in all seriousness said, "you need to keep that pot.  This is the best."

B|Java, reporting live in Lake Cheddar

[rfeuker]

Sitting here sipping my first coffee from my new Yama 5 cup tabletop (Thanks for this distribution BJava).  I've been using a 5 cup stovetop Yama for a while and loved the brew.  I wanted this one for visual effect at the table, although I need to work on a volume problem (5 cup brews just enough for me, if 2 guests want coffee we're in trouble).  Anthow, the brew is really, really fine.  I'm not a real good note taker but here's basically what I did:

1.  Preheated 22 oz. of filtered cold water on the stove (used the pot from the Yama stovetop)
2.  Transferred the water to the tabletop and turned on the burner
3.  After 1 minute, water started to smoke,
4.  Put on the top carafe and added 2 1/2 oz. of Yirgacheffe (FC roast) and stirred
5.  Took about 1 more minute for all the water to rise to the top carafe
6.  Reduced the heat a bit
7.  Let it brew for 3 minutes, stirring once in the middle
8.  Turned off the burner
9.  Coffe was all in the bottom carafe in 2 more minutes (could have been 1:45)

I am loving this coffee.  I'm not a cupper so it's hard for me to describe what I'm tasting.  I can say that the cup tastes crisp and I think of pepper and chocolate as it goes ove the tongue.

[cfsheridan]

Picking up on the sidebar from the Latte Art thread....

For me (you gotta exclude the new toy phase of course) I also see the Yama as a once a week thing because of the clean up. I know people use it everyday but personally I could not do it. Plus I make my first 20oz of coffee in a zombified state of awareness and I would break vac pots all the time if I had to dal with them in that condition. 

The brilliance of this thing for me is going to be when the right coffee comes along. I see how it's going to make something just sing. When the right coffee hits I'm sure it's going to be like magic highlighting all the right things with that clean depth...it's going to be a fantastic prep. It's really good anyway and I've had it accentuate things the way you would expect it to like a coffee magnifying glass of sorts.    ...but when the right beans comes along it's going to be fun!

As for me brining it over you know it's there any time you want to run something through it. BTW didn't I hear that you picked up some Gethumwini....

John F

John (and others)--I HIGHLY recommend the vac pot for Kenya coffees.  I did a three-fer just before my Kevote distro of some SM Kenyas.  Those beans SANG in the vac pot, and my prep still wasn't as solid as it is now (combination of info from this distribution and the Cory rod).  I'm also partial to Sumatras in the vac as well.  The Tangse Rhino sang like the Kenyas.  I figure another Kenya deep dive is on the agenda when Larry's two offerings get here.  Then again, I'm due for the BIG sumatra round--I have at least seven or eight good beans just crying out for a Sumatra fest.

(I might have too much coffee)

[peter]

I was thinking about why the vac pots do so well, and came up with the fact that the water temp is kept high for the majority of the extraction, as opposed to my trusty press pot where the water is the right temp when the extraction begins, but drops as the steep time draws out.

Thoughts?

[John F]

Thoughts?

You should be able to fashion a plug in pre heated ceramic pour over cone, hold water for X seconds, and drain to make a similar cup if it's only temp.

That slight vacuum must have something to do with it.  :icon_scratch:

[peter]

You should be able to fashion a plug in pre heated ceramic pour over cone, hold water for X seconds, and drain to make a similar cup if it's only temp.
 :icon_scratch:

Careful, you're awful close to divulging the secret behind the BWAHAHA brewer!

[John F]

Careful, you're awful close to divulging the secret behind the BWAHAHA brewer!

That was BW's patented prolonging pourover pouring pearl procedure you are thinking of. 

[BoldJava]

I was thinking about why the vac pots do so well, and came up with the fact that the water temp is kept high for the majority of the extraction, as opposed to my rusty <?>press pot where the water is the right temp when the extraction begins, but drops as the steep time draws out.

Thoughts?

Very good observation.  Using the Cory rod, the temp remains right on 182 from the time I add coffee to the draw down (2 minutes).  I will measure it when I use the cloth filter to see if there is any difference.

B|Java

[jspain]

Dave and other Vac Pot lovers,
My first chance to give her a whirl was a run with only water last night. It worked perfect but I saw that I had the temp to high to begin with and the water shot up to the top. This morning on my first run with Costa I had the temp perfect and the rise was steady and slower. The grinds may have been a bit to fine because the draw down south stalled at the end but the cup was good but a bit weak. I used the measure that came with the pot to measure the beans. I didn't weigh them. The second pot I ground a bit larger and the draw down was better but still didn't get a WHOOSH at the end like I did last night without grinds added. I added the coffee on the trip north at a point it was half full and I stirred periodically. The second cup was also great but still a bit weak. I'm going to try number three now and add more coffee. I've got it to right at 4.00 min extraction time.

This is going to be fun and I can see that once I get it down the cup will even be better. Great flavors....

Thanks again Dave for all your help. Jim

[jspain]

Update on the third pot this morning, (Yes the misses is helping me cup!)
I'm off this morning so the vac pot is getting a work out! The third pot is Kona and I added a 1/2 a second scoop. I'll actually weigh later this morning but I'm too anxious to run to the shop and put it on the scales. The added volume of grounds helped a lot. The only issue now is I'm not getting the WHOOSH at the end. It stalls at the very last? I pull the top section off and the last little bit drains at that point. Any ideas, or is this normal? Jim
Still haven fun!

[staggerlee]

John (and others)--I HIGHLY recommend the vac pot for Kenya coffees. 

yes. yes. yes. yes.

[BoldJava]

Update on the third pot this morning, (Yes the misses is helping me cup!)
I'm off this morning so the vac pot is getting a work out! The third pot is Kona and I added a 1/2 a second scoop. I'll actually weigh later this morning but I'm too anxious to run to the shop and put it on the scales. The added volume of grounds helped a lot. The only issue now is I'm not getting the WHOOSH at the end. It stalls at the very last? I pull the top section off and the last little bit drains at that point. Any ideas, or is this normal? Jim
Still haven fun!

Jim, of all the pots I have prepared, only one 'non-whoosh-down' after pulling off the stovetop.  I don't remember doing anything different (grind, temp, coffee, mechanics) on that one instance where the final downdraft didn't include the final whoosh-down as the concluding event.

Tis a puzzle...

B|Java