Green Coffee Buying Club
Coffee Discussion boards => Hardware & Equipment => Topic started by: John F on November 12, 2015, 02:06:12 PM
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Well... it is too early to get into many details but for now I invite you to be part of a creative process.
What if we were building a roaster in the US and had a chance to make it perfect?
What sorts of things would push it over the edge for you and make it a must have piece of equipment?
What batch size would you pick, what features would you like to see on it that other roasters don't have?
What type of support would you like to see...for instance would you like a base platform that upgrade kits would fit on, complete support of parts from motors down to every single screw and full video tutorials on maintenance and repairs all from one source?
Would you like a built in forum for discussing every aspect of the roaster with other users and easy access to the manufacturer?
If the concept sounds interesting to you share your thoughts.......you don't want to be kicking yourself later. ;)
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Obviously I'm in....co thinker of GCBC.
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Co outlaw. 8)
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I'm definitely interested!
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I'm definitely interested!
What would be a perfect batch size for you?
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Damn this sounds intresting. Unfortunately I'm still learning my Behmor and being amazed that I can actually produce something drinkable.
But if I were to spitball this. . .
A platform concept sounds intresting something a newbe like me could purchase and have grow with me as I grow. Something a tinkerer would find interesting but not so much DYI that a total engineering neophyte like me couldn't plug and play. A paltform that could be electric or gas but not exclusively one or the other. Built in basic programming that can be expanded either by on board hardward or internet driven. It would roast and speed cool, switching the smoke exhaust to cooling vacuum maybe. And since I'm spitballing, a machine that will produce the exact right roasting profile regardless of the bean simply by inputting the bean name.
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That last bit about perfect profile by entering the bean name might require some magic not invented yet but this is the green light thinking stage so cool! 8) 8)
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That last bit about perfect profile by entering the bean name might require some magic not invented yet but this is the green light thinking stage so cool! 8) 8)
I figured I'd get flagged on the last part. But I had to throw it out there. :o
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spitball time:
Made and fabricated -USA
-Drum- preforated or solid with a twist of a knob
-variable fan speed
-variable drum speed
-attached bean cooler
-efficient NG or propane gas or 110VAC electric doesn't matter but wired for US only
-Easy PID control - fully auto with alarm for dump.
-not unnecessarily bulky or heavy- the sonofresco proves this is possible.
-Stainless steel and easy to clean,
-chaff collector,
-easy disassembly
1 lb + finished roast
low cost
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It definitely needs the ability for another GCBC member to remote into my roaster, take control of the roast process, and rescue some of my batches!
Shootin from the hip with a random mess of thoughts...
I would pick about a pound batch size, but maybe even slightly less. I think that opens it up to reasonable heat source. Standard plug voltage or small gas burner. I don't want to pay for another 220V plug.
I'll throw this out there for parts - figure out how to use the same screw everywhere in the machine. Make it a common size.
Easy to disassemble / reassemble.
I write software for a living, but am all about the manual roasting process. If this mythical machine had the option for temp gauges and maybe a built in timer, I'm good.
Viewing windows / triers are fun even if not necessary.
If the barebones machine could be "affordable", it would be nice to be able to get in at a base level and add-on the fancy stuff as wanted/needed. This add-on part for the birthday...that part for Christmas.
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It definitely needs the ability for another GCBC member to remote into my roaster, take control of the roast process, and rescue some of my batches!
Shootin from the hip with a random mess of thoughts...
I would pick about a pound batch size, but maybe even slightly less. I think that opens it up to reasonable heat source. Standard plug voltage or small gas burner. I don't want to pay for another 220V plug.
I'll throw this out there for parts - figure out how to use the same screw everywhere in the machine. Make it a common size.
Easy to disassemble / reassemble.
I write software for a living, but am all about the manual roasting process. If this mythical machine had the option for temp gauges and maybe a built in timer, I'm good.
Viewing windows / triers are fun even if not necessary.
If the barebones machine could be "affordable", it would be nice to be able to get in at a base level and add-on the fancy stuff as wanted/needed. This add-on part for the birthday...that part for Christmas.
I like that a lot all of it. I would emphasize ports for all the temp probes, software doohickeys etc. you would want ready, with out drilling or mangling. Add-ons it being some what modular...add on as you can.
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I really like the modular idea. Call me crazy, but I would like the opportunity to add on a bean storage device/hopper that would let me have single charge aliquots lined up ready to be dropped by a machine and maybe even a bean storage locker. This would add to the remote possibilities. I could roast from work with the better half watching for a fire or, having Comcast, an internet outage. Hahaha
For cost concerns and simplicty, a base manual roaster with manual controls and the ability to add on a computer control module that allows for complete variable control. You could log roasts and reproduce them similarly. These logs with enough variables might make for trends between beans to emerge, accounting for elevation, location, varietal, density, processing, moisture content, and all roasting site variables furthering the crazy database idea on a suggested ideal roast profile based on bean.
Perfect Roaster:
-Quality material, low price is great, but more important is that it doesn't keep costing money for repairs every month
-I like a 1lbs+ size roaster
-Gas powered for me because it is far more responsive
-Solid/perforated options, Joe's quick convert sounds awesome as well
-Adjustable drum speed
-Adjustable air flow
-Temp probes (bores at least) are a must for me and my OCD
-A view window or trier
-Chaff collector
-Simple base design (easy to repair and work on)
-Add on modules (remote access, etc...)
-I am not so worried about obscene bulk, but let's get the colors right ;)
-Oversized cooling tray for quick temp drops
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I think the view window has replaced the need for triers these days. I think the Huky has both but I don't think the trier is necessary anymore
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I think the view window has replaced the need for triers these days. I think the Huky has both but I don't think the trier is necessary anymore
I agree. However, a view window doesn't replicate being able to bring the beans to your face to inspect colors and smell. Practically though, triers probably aren't neccesary for me.
Potential add-on? But you would still have to cut out the location in each unit and add a cover, so there is some cost with that potential add-on.....
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A quality steel drum with agressive stirring vanes, balanced, and trued on a lathe. Space/interface between the faceplate and drum; less than the thickness of a business card. No wobbling!
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I want to be able to use my senses, to be able to smell the roast progress and see the beans. The roaster should be quiet enough to hear the cracks as well. The ability to adjust heat transfer style would be nice. This could be done by joe's perf drum to solid drum, or possibly by directing the air flow through drum or around it. Air mass flow adjustment is important. Smoke suppression should be a consideration because it could open up location choices for a would be roaster. Temperature measurement and heat controls that interface with software that would allow you to monitor the roast and create repetable profiles. Heating elements can be agile(like gas burners) or a bit slower like IR(think diedrich) drum materials can also be more or less responsive. Some consideration should be made to the combination of drum to burner. Stirring vane design would be important. Even heat distribution. The ability to cool quickly.
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Some of this has been sounding like what's good about the propane grill + drum. The 1 lb batch size anyway, and of course the no-problem gas heat. If there's a way to instrument it better, bean temperatures etc., that would be terrific. I don't understand, though, the intent behind control over whether the drum is perforated? Depending on the answer, would it be the same if there's some control over baffling between the heat source and the drum?
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A quality steel drum with agressive stirring vanes, balanced, and trued on a lathe. Space/interface between the faceplate and drum; less than the thickness of a business card. No wobbling!
8)
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Some of this has been sounding like what's good about the propane grill + drum. The 1 lb batch size anyway, and of course the no-problem gas heat. If there's a way to instrument it better, bean temperatures etc., that would be terrific. I don't understand, though, the intent behind control over whether the drum is perforated? Depending on the answer, would it be the same if there's some control over baffling between the heat source and the drum?
Maybe, it's more about eliminating the the debate for people that want with perforated for better airflow and people who believe solid drums are better. One of the better options that most roasters are looking for is perforated drums, but there are still skeptics. The ideal would be a one drum solution.
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As far as the perforated drum or the solid drum, to me it's about influencing the heat transfer. For a given metal and thickness of drum a perforated drum should respond to temperature changes quicker. The second part is the ability to change how much of the heat transfer is conduction vs. convection. Fluid/spurting bed roasters swing the pendulum to convection, while solid drums with little direct contact with moving gas/air swing it to conduction. In my perfect roaster, I would be able to decide. Radiant heat transfer is another possible influence to play with, but I think it would be harder to vary.
I think that baffling gas flow could have a similar effect, but care needs to be taken to keep the heating even. I wouldn't want hot and cool spots, especially if they were inconsistent and changed with air flow adjustment. The other part of this is that having a thermally responsive drum and a thermally responsive heat source could make for a finicky roaster.
This doesn't have to be a drum roaster, right? An SCTO'ish style roaster could incorporate many of the wish list items.
We should also consider energy efficiency, safety devices, chaff removal and style.
Energy Efficiency:
- gas/air re-circulation (or regenerative air heating) could increase the incoming air temperature and reduce fuel required.
- Proper insulation of the roaster to keep the heat in.
Safety:
- Interlock the fan to shut down on fire detection
- Thermocouple looking for rapid heat increase that could initiate an emergency shutdown
- The ability to dump the beans to a cooler without getting burnt
- Minimizer hot surfaces to prevent burns and possible external fires
- There are probably other codes that would have to be complied too (especially if gas was used) and a UL rating would probably be necessary
Chaff Removal
I think chaff removal is a design consideration for later after some other choices are made, but it is important. Poor chaff removal can create a fire hazard and, at a minimum, ruin the appearance of beautiful beans. This is not a big deal for me, but a new roasting hobbyist or customer who gets a bag full of chaff might disagree.
Style
Not really my area of expertise, but style can make or break a product in the mass market. I've seen useless devices sell like hot cakes because they were stylish and vice-a-versa.
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Would like to be able to run a 2 to 3 pound batch .
Solid to perforated drum would be great. Maybe an insert?
Since we are throwing things against the wall. Modular drum sizes? Might be more engineering than its worth but what the heck.
Integrated data readouts so you can just plug a USB into the control panel.
Probably more that should come to mind but a lot has been mentioned already above.
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Oh I've been sitting on two ideal platforms for a long time now. Both very different, and both untried in mass production.
I can't afford the patent process, or anything else involved in getting something to market.
This has made me consider how very many great ideas on this planet have never seen the light of day.
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It sounds like there are two camps: the larger capacity "garage roasters" and the <=1# "kitchen roasters." I belong to the latter. I have a HotTop P model, and can speak to what I wish for in this roaster.
I need an electric roaster to be used under a stove hood. Up to 20 amps, 120 volts. I liked the programmability of my HT-P in the beginning , but now really wish it could interface easily with a computer or tablet to have close control of the roast. I am often frustrated that the HT-P does not allow much on the fly adjustments. I would like to start with a preprogrammed profile but be able to interrupt and adjust the parameters any time. We could then have a database of profiles to share. Enter the distribution code, and the app or control software would download and show profiles others have provided, such as the profile saved and shared by he cupper.
The HT also has too much plastic. I've stripped the threads of the back plate, and the barrel often rubs on he heating element. Then, there is the load size. .5-1# would be ideal for me.
HT-P
VBM DB
Vario
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It sounds like there are two camps: the larger capacity "garage roasters" and the <=1# "kitchen roasters."
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Then, there is the load size. .5-1# would be ideal for me.
There's two kinds of people - the kind that believes there's two kinds of people, and the kind that doesn't.
I propose that it would help to introduce a third category intermediate between your first and second, the roasters that are larger than the typical kitchen appliances and can really manage 1 lb.
Then we can eliminate the first category, because everyone would like to be able to roast a pound if they could. I infer that includes you - your Hottop isn't big enough - and potentially everyone else who has ever bought a kitchen appliance roaster, because the way they do it, indoors or out, they're limited by typical household circuits. Really satisfactory capacity means either a more heat-efficient electric (apparently the Stir-Crazy/convection oven rigs roast bigger loads? Behmor claims 1 lb but might be stretch?), that could push the limit up a bit. Or it means a different appliance model, like 220V or propane, that isn't your usual kitchen appliance - and once you take that step, it's silly not to make the garage roaster, so we can dispense with the intermediate category as well.
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I've seen the 1lb.-hang up for years, but still don't know why that would matter to the typical home-roaster. Unless you're bagging the beans for sale or for gifts, who cares what size batch you net, whether it's 1lb. or 12oz.?
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I guess I use them up fast. 12 oz. vs 16? It's a fairly small difference, but noticeable, why didn't you ask about 15 vs 16? In the general picture though, 12 oz is still more than you're going to get from kitchen appliances. Hottop is your high end roaster, and it maxes out at 8, right - depending on line voltage? The Hearthware Gourmet that I stupidly bought some years back wouldn't do near that much.
If a little bit of coffee goes a long way in your household, then you wouldn't like my propane BBQ grill drum roaster. It's ill suited to small loads, I don't think I've ever bothered with anything as small as 1/2 lb. For me that means robusta or anything I have in small quantity, I'll try to heat gun that stuff. The question is though, when we're daring to dream about a perfect roaster, and knowing you guys perfection means expensive, who cares about small loads?
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Out of curiosity, is this thread a hypothetical situation, or is this the beginnings of an independent GCBC kickstarter campaign?
When I read forums about roasters under $2000, almost every roaster ends up being modified to some degree to meet the exact needs of an experienced home roaster.
Personally I would love a roaster that could be converted from electric to gas. I currently live in a NYC apartment and running a gas roaster in an apartment would be dangerous. However, in the future we plan to move to the burbs and I've love to move to a gas roaster.
I'm also a sucker for data logging for the ability to recreate a roast. Using the artisan software with my Quest has made that quite easy.
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I would like a 2 kilo (4.4lbs) drum roaster, My thinking is that I can still do small batches but have the capability to do larger ones. I have recently hooked up with a machinist and a welder(fabricator). I have been searching online for a suitable size and design idea for a propane drum roaster.
As mentioned previously in this thread, I would want to design the drum and machine to run close to silent. I have watched some videos of roasters trying to listen for first crack where the back ground noise is of a very high decibel.
Could some sort of audio change gadget inside the machine determine that first crack has started?
Just something I am looking into now.
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Might be a GCBC kickstarter eventually. Want to get some idea's kicked around and see where folks are landing on some stuff. The more input the better. I have to say the Allio Bullet checks most of my boxes...Personally but the Sonofresco checks all of my real boxes. But in creating something new that people already don't have crazy prejudice about such as Fluid bed vs. Drum its good to start with a less controversial platform. I.E. What is your ideal 1lb drum roaster features.
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Many of the roasters on the market lately have been over a couple grand in price! That is hard to justify for the hobbyist that roast their own and 1lb a week is all they use. It would be great if a general platform could be had that roasts a pound and is between 500 and 1000 dollars. That would make it more digestible for the average hobbyist, and like others have stated, then you could have a nice choice for a Christmas gift when someone asks what you want!
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But isn't there a good reason why roasters (especially with the features we want) are so expensive? Don't you suppose if someone was able to bring a fully loaded 1lb. or 2lb. roaster to market for a couple grand they would do so?
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The bullet looks great, and I was ready to preorder but I was disappointed by their commutation and lack of updates. They are way behind schedule and I have yet to see one in anyone's hands. I've emailed them several times regarding preorder, delivery times, if they have a working model, videos, US vendors and I received no response from them.
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But isn't there a good reason why roasters (especially with the features we want) are so expensive? Don't you suppose if someone was able to bring a fully loaded 1lb. or 2lb. roaster to market for a couple grand they would do so?
Yes of course. But there is also some not so good reasons and better reasons to look at alternatives. Overhead costs are not insignificant. The ability to be small and scaleable is something that isn't valued as much as it used to be. Determining where that threshold is...tricky.
Something that is often not thought of these days is that while when oil and gas was extremely cheap out sourcing to china and Taiwan, etc. made a lot of sense. Local manufacturing is making a comeback especially in the rust belt and when you factor in some of the unplanned challenges of outsourcing. Looking for US manufacturing and available parts is the ideal on this.
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The bullet looks great, and I was ready to preorder but I was disappointed by their commutation and lack of updates. They are way behind schedule and I have yet to see one in anyone's hands. I've emailed them several times regarding preorder, delivery times, if they have a working model, videos, US vendors and I received no response from them.
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I agree, going off of what I have seen in the past that stuff gets sorted out once they see the actual demand. I expect that the bullet will be a similar launch as the gene cafe.
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Anyway, I'm not much of an engineer, but I do like the idea and would be more than happy to chime in.
I would love to see this integrated with Artisan software. I've tried both Artisan and Cropster and I really think artisan is superior to cropster provided you don't need inventory databases and such.
The boys who built that are incredibly talented and I'm sure they would have good input as well.
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doesn't artisan and alike just take temp readings from thermocouples and place data on a graph?
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Well, that's the basics. But artisan can also control heating elements, both gas and electric, as well as fans, dampers and drum speed if you want it to. They built a lot of functionality into the software and they updated it fairly regularly and best of all its FREE!! Cropster starts at like $100/mo and doesn't offer any of the automation that is built into artisan. If you want to see any of the outputs from artisan let me know.
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I don't think we would want to be dependent on a software interface that wasn't proprietary if it was controlling more than inputs on a graph for tc's. It's always great while it's free and supported but I personally would prefer either a proprietary system that the roaster depended on or a more manual controlled option with live TC feedback. If the artisan software was the preferred interface to control gas and air etc that could be a user hack that wouldn't be supported. In other words if artisan breaks it, your fault.
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I don't think we would want to be dependent on a software interface that wasn't proprietary if it was controlling more than inputs on a graph for tc's. It's always great while it's free and supported but I personally would prefer either a proprietary system that the roaster depended on or a more manual controlled option with live TC feedback. If the artisan software was the preferred interface to control gas and air etc that could be a user hack that wouldn't be supported. In other words if artisan breaks it, your fault.
I'm enjoying this discussion, although I don't have much to contribute at this point, but I'm not sure I understand your point on this Joe. Could you elaborate? Thanks.
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Yeah if you have a software that controls stuff. You develop your own so you have control over it. If you let outside developers develop software even free then when/if something goes wrong you weren't in control of any of that, but you are liable.
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I understand where you are coming from, that makes sense. With that in mind, what are your thoughts on opensource software, or building it to allow the user to their choice of software?
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I understand where you are coming from, that makes sense. With that in mind, what are your thoughts on opensource software, or building it to allow the user to their choice of software?
I would actually go the opposite direction personally unless I wanted to spend lots of money and time to develop a control panel and software. I think it's easier to have a PID controller and an interface and let people do their own thing unsupported as they need more control. I think you have modified your quest to do such a thing. I have pid' poppery 1's etc..
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Exactly...that was kind of what I was implying with the artisan, but I may have spoken wrong. Essentially what I was thinking was to consult with the software coders, so they know what hardware (relays, thermocouples, zero cross detectors, motors, etc) you are using so they can build that into the software for people who would like to use it in combination. Hottop recently did that with them, and now if someone wants to they can completely control the hottop with artisan. However if someone wants to, they can use other software as well.