Espresso Machine, what should I look for

[Ascholten]

Hello everyone quick question here.... or... maybe not.

I am finally at a point where I can get an espresso machine.

Here are my criteria:

I don't want a piece of crap, yet I don't want to pay 9000 dollars for one either just for a 'name'.

I am NOT an expert, in fact would classify myself a dribbling novice at making real espresso's .

I also classify myself as one who likes to get the upper end of something and grow into it as I learn. rather than get a lower end and grow out of it and a year later spend the extra cash to get something better, which i should have got to begin with.

I am NOT cheap, I don't want to skimp a few dollars and not get something or lose quality over a few bucks to have it bite me later on. I want a good machine, yet it doesn't have to walk around the room and follow me to the loo... (aka the 9000 dollar too many bells and whistles with stuff one rarely would ever use machine)

I know this will probably end up in hot topics as everyone has their own dream machine and what they classify as important in an espresso machine, but Ill gladly take any and all suggestions, comments, and wisdom from those of you who have a clue... unlike me.....to guide me along on my purchase.

Oh and PS I already have a Jolly, a few Zass' and a Maestro so I do know about a good grinder.  The tamping now I understand is another 'art' i will need to learn to master....

Ok, letter rip.

and thank you in advance

Aaron

[mp]

Well Aaron ... if you prefer to buy your last machine first (recommended) then I would look at getting a HX machine.  If you don't mind plumbing it in then you may want to pick up Bunn ES-1A commercial 1 group used machine for around $500.00.  According to Robert most machines need about $50.00 to restore to new.

If you like me don't want to go the plumb in route then keep your eyes open for a good used prosumer HX machine like an Isomac, Vibiemme or similar.  Yes they cost a little more than a Sylvia but you get a whole lot more and you won't suffer from Upgrade-itis.  The HX machines that come with the famed E61 group are very forgiving at pulling a great shot and will put  you on route to espresso stardom in no time.  I would say you should be able to pick one up for about $700 - $1000 range.

If you want to go on the cheap pick up a nice used Gaggia and put 3 mods on it and it will pull some nice espresso.  I would say that you could do this for about $300.

That should give you something to munch on.

 

[Ascholten]

Thanks MP  the 700 to 1k is probably where i am looking at... maybe a bit more.... plumbing it in. thats the kicker there....  is a great idea but I have to kick around if I want to drill a hole in my countertop or not for the hose...  unless I run the hole through the SS sink, so a replacement cost 400 .vs. 4000 for the countertop. or just get the 2 dollar plastic plug for it.   .. but then again, im stuck with the machine pretty much going to be in that one spot for the rest of it's life, versus a pour water in type which i can move as needed.....      gaah I sound like a girl now trying to make up her mind on a dress... geez shoot me already 

Aaron

[John F]

What are you going to use the machine for mainly?

Straight shots
Milk drinks

1-4 drinks per session a few users
Multiple back to back shots and frequent entertaining

I disagree with the advice to look at HX as a quality measure....I say look at it as a performance issue. If you are running a weekly 3 table poker game or something and want to be able to pull 27 shots in a row and steam a bunch of milk HX is a clear advantage (and so is plumbed in) but if you are a 1-2 person user and will be pulling 2 straight shots per session why is choosing HX / plumbed the best choice for you?

Get a machine that fits the needs you are after.



 

[Tex]

There are three types of espresso machines:
1) Super automatic - You put in water & whole beans and push a button; out comes espresso. I've yet to see one that makes a decent shot of espresso, even the $18000 models used by Starbuck's.

2) Automatic - You put in water, grind the beans, dose the filter and push a button; out comes a pre-measured shot of espresso. A bit more convenient since the volume of the shot is controlled by an electronic dosing switch.

3) Semi-automatic - Same as #2, but you control how long the shot lasts. Cheaper (less electronics) and can be cheaper to own over the long-haul, because when a machine breaks it's usually the electronics that go first. Less electronics in the first place means there's less to go wrong.

#2 & 3 produce the same shot quality.

Within the auto & semi-auto selections there are three boiler types:
1) Single boiler, dual use: The boiler heats the water for brewing and is also used to produce steam for creating foamed milk for lattes & cappuccinos. There are separate circuits to control the two functions and the functions cannot be performed concurrently.

2) Heat exchanger (HX): The temperature of the boiler is kept at ~250°F. This super-hot water is ideal for steaming milk. It's also responsible for flash-heating the cool water that flows through the HX. The HX is simply a tube through the boiler that cooler water passes through on its way to the group & filter. As water passes through the HX it's heated by the hot water in the boiler. If a HX machine is in constant use the brewing temperature is easy to maintain. If the machine sits idle for any length of time it's necessary to flush the hot water from the HX to cool the HX & group. One can pull shots and steam milk concurrently.

3) Double boiler: Uses two boilers, one for steaming & one for brewing. Each is kept at the ideal temperature for each function. The double boiler machine is the easiest to master and is usually the most expensive of the machines. One can pull shots and steam milk concurrently.

[Ascholten]

Thanks for all the inputs so far.   I entertain from time to time, mostly on the weekends if I do,  and it would be maybe 5 shots or so,  other than a shot or three a day.  Not heavy use.  I don't think ill go the plumbed in route.  Im not looking for the full auto either.  I like to be able to control my shot, or should I say, have more control over it so I can customize it to what I want, and not what some programmer says I want, and can mix and match to suit others tastes too as I become better at operating it.  Im generally a straight coffee type of guy but have drank the milked ones too, actually those are good around bed time.

Aaron

[Tex]

Thanks for all the inputs so far.   I entertain from time to time, mostly on the weekends if I do,  and it would be maybe 5 shots or so,  other than a shot or three a day.  Not heavy use.  I don't think ill go the plumbed in route.  Im not looking for the full auto either.  I like to be able to control my shot, or should I say, have more control over it so I can customize it to what I want, and not what some programmer says I want, and can mix and match to suit others tastes too as I become better at operating it.  Im generally a straight coffee type of guy but have drank the milked ones too, actually those are good around bed time.

Aaron

For your intended us I'd recommend a single boiler/dual use machine, such as the Gaggia Classic or Rancilio Silvia. Both machines have adjustable OPVs (brew pressure) and 3-way valves (successive shots without waiting). Both machines also have abysmal heat control in stock form - both benefiting greatly from PIDing.

Personally, I prefer the Gaggia Classic at Costco for $399.99, as it has more powerful heating elements. The Rancilio Silvia makes an identical cup of coffee, but cost ~$200 more.

There are other options, both more & less expensive, but these two machines are considered by many to be the best of the entry-level group of machines.

[John F]

For your intended us I'd recommend a single boiler/dual use machine, such as the Gaggia Classic or Rancilio Silvia.

I think that is a solid recommendation as either machine fits your needs and may be all the machine you are after.

You do have potential to outgrow those machines or possibly upgrade in the future but then again you may not. That level isn't like a throw away machine even if you do want to upgrade later you could sell what you have.

In general I think a lot of people buy more machine than they will ever use. That isn't a totally bad thing because the additional features invariably help...having an E-61 is never a bad thing ya know? But from what you are saying I think Tex makes a good point for the lower mid end machines. You can pull good shots with either if you want to do the work and you can also pull garbage shots on a 7K machine if you don't lock down the fundamentals.

Start with these machines but consider upgrading if you think you will eventually want to anyway, want something with more bling, or you find a deal...that's my advice.

[bunnysandefur]

There are three types of espresso machines:

I beg to differ. If I had that sort of price range to spend, I'd definitely be splurging on the
object of my affections.

Why don't more people go manual? As you said, less electronic parts, less things to break.
Do they not produce amazing servings of espresso? Is it all just sheer looks and novelty?
I truly want to know, because I've been dying to buy one of these for years now.

Is auto or semi-auto really the way to go?

[John F]

I beg to differ.
 
object of my affections.

I have been agonizing over this one myself.

http://www.wholelattelove.com/Gaggia/achille.cfm


The romance of the lever has been drawing me in for a little while now.

[Tex]

There are three types of espresso machines:

I beg to differ. If I had that sort of price range to spend, I'd definitely be splurging on the
object of my affections.

Why don't more people go manual? As you said, less electronic parts, less things to break.
Do they not produce amazing servings of espresso? Is it all just sheer looks and novelty?
I truly want to know, because I've been dying to buy one of these for years now.

Is auto or semi-auto really the way to go?

Technically, a LP lever is a single boiler/dual use, pump driven, semi-auto espresso machine.

LP Europiccola was my first real espresso machine - 1968. Here's a page I started working on: http://home.earthlink.net/~r_harmon/La%20Pavoni. I like their simplicity, but everything has to be perfect to get a good shot from one. What I'm looking for is a vintage Visacrem lever machine, the one with a spring loaded group.

[Tex]

I beg to differ.
 
object of my affections.

I have been agonizing over this one myself.

http://www.wholelattelove.com/Gaggia/achille.cfm


The romance of the lever has been drawing me in for a little while now.

Ignore the siren call of the chromed peacock John, get your Carezza working! 

[John F]

Ignore the siren call of the chromed peacock John, get your Carezza working! 

2 different things..

I could pull shots with my machine right now it's functional, just not "put together" and the mods are not done yet. But if I get it bad for a shot I can fire it up and pull ~9 bar shots with it now.

The lever I think I'm going to have to get at some point to take the ride ya know? Like an author going off to a cabin somewhere to write I'd like to spend a year or 2 with a manual and do the whole zen shot thing.

[Dante]

Hi Aaron, I started with a Saeco superauto, quickly got tired of that and moved up to a Quickmill Vetrano - a nice HX there -



but jumped on the chance to own a commercial two group La Cimbali M30 Classic when one was offered here (thanks Felix!!!!) sometime back for much less than what I paid for the Vetrano!



I have not regretted the decision. I have checked some online sites in the past and found a number of refurbished commercial machines at a fraction of the price of a home HX machine.

Good luck and happy hunting!
  

[bunnysandefur]

I have been agonizing over this one myself.

The romance of the lever has been drawing me in for a little while now.

I couldn't put it more eloquently than you just did.

I was being lazy with my first link... I really do prefer the brass gold plated model for purely aesthetic reasons.

And to Tex - I really did think it qualified as semi-auto for the same reasons you mentioned, but I had never found it categorized as such on retail sites.
Thank you for the clarification.