Rafino sieving system

[day]

Hi guys, I spend most my time on home-Batista but I was browsing around here and noticed that nobody has mentioned the Rafino sieving system. There seems to be a lot less cross over between these two groups than say, coffee geek (if anyone still uses that one?) so I thought I would post here and see what you guys think, hopefully it's not considered "cross posting" though I didn't start that thread anyway, just wanted to share here. I ended up backing the full set, though admittedly one could by mesh screen sheets and build a homemade system for a bit less. Haven't gotten to ever really try out sieving properly before so it's mostly just a stab in the dark based on logic and some good reports of sieving in the past.

[Ascholten]

So, exactly what is the purpose of you bringing up this post?   Also, you said you heard some good reports on it, from where? What did they say, how can one have a report when the item is not even available to the 'common man' yet.  Id be highly cautious of 'good reports' from the manufacturers / sellers / people trying to get money, of COURSE their project is the best thing since sliced bread!

I would want to think static electric could cause big problems for you especially after freshly ground.  Also, the shape of the 'ground' is important as well.  You could beat up coffee with a whirly bird or with a burr grinder, and sieve out like sized pieces.  Me wonders if they would taste different?   If your main concern is getting dust out, you could just shake it with a regulated air flow across it and blow the dust out Id think.

Aaron

[Beandog]

What did they say, how can one have a report when the item is not even available to the 'common man' yet.

Sounded to me like day was speaking of sieving in general, not specifically the Rafino.

Sounds like an interesting product, especially for someone that has not invested in a high end grinder or for use in combo with a hand grinder (when on the go) I brew mostly pour-over and am concerned more about consistancy rather than fine grind. However, I agree with Aaron in that the static could create an issue with the fines. Also curious on the claims of how effective this would be with a high end grinder...but what happens to all the fines and course grinds you are not brewing with? Toss them!? As much as I strive for that most excellent cup not sure if I'm ready to just be throwing away such great coffee every day, maybe for competition level but to just throw away great beans everyday, that is quite a waste.

[Ascholten]

Beandog I have to agree totally, that is just a waste of good coffee.

Another example.  Ethiopian Coffee's.  Some of them are HORRIBLE looking when green, they have so many defects in them WOW!!    But.....

You roast them all up anyways, grind the menagerie of misfit beans and drink it and get a really good cup of coffee!  All those 'imperfections' add to the overall experience of your 'cup', and it has been demonstrated many times that culling things some may deem 'unworthy' can drastically alter the flavor of the cup and sometimes, not always in a good way either.

I get the strive for perfection thing, but often times it's the imperfections which we crave, desire, and entice us.

Let's take another twist on this, aimed at nobody in particular....  Kopi Luwak,  you will drink beans that passed thru the anus of a rodent, yet somehow proclaim you are looking for 'the perfect bean' , the perfect preparation.  All the Pre Processing not withstanding, really?     Sometimes I think 'perfection' is not always in our best interests.

Aaron

[billsey]

Sounds like an interesting product, especially for someone that has not invested in a high end grinder or for use in combo with a hand grinder (when on the go) I brew mostly pour-over and am concerned more about consistancy rather than fine grind. However, I agree with Aaron in that the static could create an issue with the fines. Also curious on the claims of how effective this would be with a high end grinder...but what happens to all the fines and course grinds you are not brewing with? Toss them!? As much as I strive for that most excellent cup not sure if I'm ready to just be throwing away such great coffee every day, maybe for competition level but to just throw away great beans everyday, that is quite a waste.

They covered the excess grinds from boulders and fines in the description, suggesting running boulders through your grinder a second time and using fines for coffee flavor in cooking or just composting it. They also mention that there should be only a small volume of fines with most grinders. I think it would be interesting to experiment with to see where my grinder is set, especially when grinding for espresso, but not sure it's worth the cost to experiment.

[Ascholten]

What defines 'fines'  just mere size or shape too.
Burr grinders are claimed to be superior because they 'shave' the bean whereas a whirly bird 'beats' it up and creates dust. 
What if you 'shaved' it small enough?  What is it?

If you break a crumb in half, do you have half a crumb or two crumbs?

Aaron

[JojoS]

Ever since I saw Kapo Chu placed 2nd in WBC 2014 using a sieve with the EK43, I've been wanting to try out one but found the price prohibitive. This is very reasonably priced. Another toy to play with! The Coffee Geek with 4 sieves should be good enough for me.

[rbk]

suggesting running boulders through your grinder a second time

My grinder wasn't particularly happy with my attempts to try this :p


I've played around with sieving a bit, and in my opinion it made for some tastier, cleaner, cups of coffee (notably reducing <250u grounds in pourovers, and increasing overall extraction). At the end of the day though, laziness usually kicks in and I often don't have the motivation to spend the extra time sieving (and cleaning the sieve afterwards), so the "improvement" wasn't really compelling enough to me I guess. I've had the opposite experience as well for certain coffees, where after tuning a recipe both with and without fines I ended up much preferring the one with them.

The one thing I can say about the Rafino is that it comes in at a decent price point (precision sieves are surprisingly expensive), so it could be worth it to someone looking to experiment with the idea.

[day]

So, exactly what is the purpose of you bringing up this post?   Also, you said you heard some good reports on it, from where? What did they say, how can one have a report when the item is not even available to the 'common man' yet.  Id be highly cautious of 'good reports' from the manufacturers / sellers / people trying to get money, of COURSE their project is the best thing since sliced bread!

I would want to think static electric could cause big problems for you especially after freshly ground.  Also, the shape of the 'ground' is important as well.  You could beat up coffee with a whirly bird or with a burr grinder, and sieve out like sized pieces.  Me wonders if they would taste different?   If your main concern is getting dust out, you could just shake it with a regulated air flow across it and blow the dust out Id think.

Aaron

Your passionate in your opposition seems misplaced here. And yes, you obviously skimmed the post, as you are more than capable of understanding what I wrote if you took the seconds needed to read it. As to its value, I think the logic and rationale is clear. Obviously the more consistent a grinder and more round the original particles the easier sieving would be, the more effective it would be, and the less waste it would produce. A Whirly blade  could, no doubt, be improved but obviously the limitations would still have an influence in a variety of ways.

As to comments in general, Odd looking natural processes Ethiopian beans vs a wide range of particle sizes when brewing is clearly two separate issues. However, only time and tasting will tell what results in the better cup, so I will leave it for now. Peace.

[Ascholten]

I did not skim your post, I inquired as to what it's intent was.
You apologized many times for an alleged cross posting and pointed us to a URL about a seive.
You said you heard some good reports on the sieve, I was assuming it was the one you crowd funded to since you were not clear in any mentions of any other sieves.  Looking at the crowd funding effort it appears that sieve is NOT on the market yet so I asked who's opinion was saying 'good things' about it since it's not available to us little common people.  I also cautioned that someone trying to sell something, sometimes their opinions on their something are a bit.. shall we say.. elevated.

The point with the Ethiopian beans, if YOU were to read and not skim was that sometimes the things we call defects are what embody the coffee and make it what we are looking for.

Finally, the round particles would sieve easier?  If you are shaking the hell out of something, Id think that a particle under X micron size would fall through the X sized micron hole no matter what since you are adding energy to it to move it about.  Hopefully we don't have a bunch of round particles as that is the bad stuff, ie the dust right?

Aaron

[day]

I did not skim your post, I inquired as to what it's intent was.
You apologized many times for an alleged cross posting and pointed us to a URL about a seive.
You said you heard some good reports on the sieve, I was assuming it was the one you crowd funded to since you were not clear in any mentions of any other sieves.  Looking at the crowd funding effort it appears that sieve is NOT on the market yet so I asked who's opinion was saying 'good things' about it since it's not available to us little common people.  I also cautioned that someone trying to sell something, sometimes their opinions on their something are a bit.. shall we say.. elevated.

The point with the Ethiopian beans, if YOU were to read and not skim was that sometimes the things we call defects are what embody the coffee and make it what we are looking for.

Finally, the round particles would sieve easier?  If you are shaking the hell out of something, Id think that a particle under X micron size would fall through the X sized micron hole no matter what since you are adding energy to it to move it about.  Hopefully we don't have a bunch of round particles as that is the bad stuff, ie the dust right?

Aaron

Come on man, I don't know why your coming at this with such a vitriolic tone. Obviously "good reports of sieving in the past" does not in anyway suggest that this particular product had been reviewed. That misunderstanding was on your end plain and simple. I had, however, assumed that you were familiar with the praise that Matt Perger, kapo chu and several other major figures have given to the value of sieving in the past. Not to mention some excellent Team HB over at home-barista, etc. I see now that you are not and did not look it up, my bad.

I did go a little overboard worrying about cross-posting. That error was with me.

and yes, I fully understood the intent of the Ethiopian bean analogy. My point was that the analogy is particularly ineffective when using it to determine if sieving has potential benefits or not. I really don't care to continue with with you in your current state though. I know your a great guy, but Way too intense man, this is not the hot topics thread.

[Ascholten]

whatever dude.

get over yourself.

May I recommend a nice Decaf, I believe Peter has some awesome ones for sale.

Aaron

[Joe]

I don't care who says what about what. When they mention the "best grinders" and show a baratza then show a pour over that looks like tea, I start to giggle inside a little.

Sometimes that tea looking coffee can be good, a lot of times it is what happens when third wavers get out of control. I'm not sure why you would want to screen your grounds I feel as if it would:

1. Waste too much time.
2. Make the grounds dead tasting by screening them releasing all the good stuff.
3. Basically be used once and then you get a hold of yourself and say "what the heck am i doing?"

Still I see lots of people using all the pre wetted filters, timers, and scales etc. when doing a pour over and I always thought that would go the way of the dodo too. I have had some excellent cups with those methods and some that I wish were roasted a bit darker, put in a dry filter, eyeballed and then get my excellent cup of coffee.

I am willing to try this kickstarter or any of these for a staff review if someone has connections. I am always willing to check stuff out. The Minipresso was awesome on my trip to Thailand.

[rbk]

2. Make the grounds dead tasting by screening them releasing all the good stuff.

This is one thing I've been curious about with respect to sieving that I haven't heard anyone comment on, I imagine shaking grounds around probably accelerates staling? Makes sense intuitively, but I wasn't sure if the short time spent in the tin was long enough to have noticeable effects (an easy thing to test, I suppose).

[Ascholten]

rbk I am assuming you are talking possibly aromatics that get released upon grinding, that would go into the cup if brewed normally, however might be released to the air if shaken around a bit more before brewing?  I have also heard people say that after grinding that you should let the grounds rest 5 minutes or so before brewing them.  If this were the case, sifting might help this as well.

That is a very interesting and good question there.

But think of it this way, if you sift fine enough, you can save all those fines and since they are so fine, eventually have enough saved up for a fine shot of finely sifted espresso!

 

Aaron