Author Topic: Rafino sieving system  (Read 13979 times)

Offline Badam

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Re: Rafino sieving system
« Reply #45 on: April 20, 2016, 01:41:57 PM »
I don't accept that all things remain unchanged. A grinder, due to design, age, and a host of other variables, is likely to put out results that change over time. How does a nut loosen on a bolt? What is the output of a clean set of burrs vs. not clean? How much change occurs with each use? How often should a grinder be cleaned? These questions can't be answered without data. My grinder is likely not producing the same output at the same setting as the day I brought it home. If I know what the output should be, I can set it to THAT "notch" rather than the one I used when I first bought it. I don't know how to explain why information is important to me...perhaps it's due to the influence of a college professor who was always stressing the importance of accuracy. Maybe it's just that the 'a-pinch-of-this' and 'a-touch-of-that' technique is not an ideal way to achieve consistent results. I like to quantify the variables just so that I know the equipment is doing what it is supposed to be doing...delivering a predictable output.

No matter how many variables you monitor and attempt to keep consistent, there are always more. It is an exercise in futility.

Offline Joe

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Re: Rafino sieving system
« Reply #46 on: April 20, 2016, 01:44:10 PM »
I guess where I am at with it is that it should be easy enough to find some whatever size micron screens you want (nylon is common) and cut up some old tupperware containers and really find out for about $10 whether $70 is worth it.

I'm not there on the curious level.

Holy cow...I didn't even know there was a curious level...is there a device for measuring that? I'll buy one...just get it on Kickstarter and I'm in!

I actually own the patent on the curious level indicator as well as the diminishing returns from investment level and I am waiting for someone to send me the billion it will take to develop both - it's beyond kickstarter.

 Seriously look at 500 micron screen on google or water screen size is your ideal. Not too expensive...
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Offline Ascholten

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Re: Rafino sieving system
« Reply #47 on: April 20, 2016, 01:54:43 PM »
a fly swatter may work too, even cheaper yet!

Aaron
As I have grown older, I have learned that pleasing everybody is impossible, but pissing everybody off is a piece of cake!

upshot

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Re: Rafino sieving system
« Reply #48 on: April 20, 2016, 02:03:06 PM »
I don't accept that all things remain unchanged. A grinder, due to design, age, and a host of other variables, is likely to put out results that change over time. How does a nut loosen on a bolt? What is the output of a clean set of burrs vs. not clean? How much change occurs with each use? How often should a grinder be cleaned? These questions can't be answered without data. My grinder is likely not producing the same output at the same setting as the day I brought it home. If I know what the output should be, I can set it to THAT "notch" rather than the one I used when I first bought it. I don't know how to explain why information is important to me...perhaps it's due to the influence of a college professor who was always stressing the importance of accuracy. Maybe it's just that the 'a-pinch-of-this' and 'a-touch-of-that' technique is not an ideal way to achieve consistent results. I like to quantify the variables just so that I know the equipment is doing what it is supposed to be doing...delivering a predictable output.

No matter how many variables you monitor and attempt to keep consistent, there are always more. It is an exercise in futility.

So the choices are: 1) monitor all of them; or, 2) monitor none of them??

How about just monitoring the variables that are important? Before answering...I intentionally did not say "...the variables that I feel are important..." just to see if you'd bite! Monitoring variables is a necessary evil. Of course no one is interested in monitoring ALL variables, but I'd bet you'd expect your heart surgeon to be monitoring some of the important ones!!

upshot

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Re: Rafino sieving system
« Reply #49 on: April 20, 2016, 02:09:12 PM »
I actually own the patent on the curious level indicator as well as the diminishing returns from investment level and I am waiting for someone to send me the billion it will take to develop both - it's beyond kickstarter.

I could physically feel my curiosity level elevate when I read your reply Joe...I just don't know by how much. Damn. Somebody give the man some money so we can put a number on this new variable...jeez!

Offline Joe

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Re: Rafino sieving system
« Reply #50 on: April 20, 2016, 02:19:14 PM »
I actually own the patent on the curious level indicator as well as the diminishing returns from investment level and I am waiting for someone to send me the billion it will take to develop both - it's beyond kickstarter.

I could physically feel my curiosity level elevate when I read your reply Joe...I just don't know by how much. Damn. Somebody give the man some money so we can put a number on this new variable...jeez!

I got ideas..... lots of ideas!
[url=http://www.greencoffeebuyingclub.com/index.php?board=37

Offline Badam

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Re: Rafino sieving system
« Reply #51 on: April 20, 2016, 02:54:10 PM »
I don't accept that all things remain unchanged. A grinder, due to design, age, and a host of other variables, is likely to put out results that change over time. How does a nut loosen on a bolt? What is the output of a clean set of burrs vs. not clean? How much change occurs with each use? How often should a grinder be cleaned? These questions can't be answered without data. My grinder is likely not producing the same output at the same setting as the day I brought it home. If I know what the output should be, I can set it to THAT "notch" rather than the one I used when I first bought it. I don't know how to explain why information is important to me...perhaps it's due to the influence of a college professor who was always stressing the importance of accuracy. Maybe it's just that the 'a-pinch-of-this' and 'a-touch-of-that' technique is not an ideal way to achieve consistent results. I like to quantify the variables just so that I know the equipment is doing what it is supposed to be doing...delivering a predictable output.

No matter how many variables you monitor and attempt to keep consistent, there are always more. It is an exercise in futility.

So the choices are: 1) monitor all of them; or, 2) monitor none of them??

How about just monitoring the variables that are important? Before answering...I intentionally did not say "...the variables that I feel are important..." just to see if you'd bite! Monitoring variables is a necessary evil. Of course no one is interested in monitoring ALL variables, but I'd bet you'd expect your heart surgeon to be monitoring some of the important ones!!

Clearly your choices are more diverse than measuring all or none. My response was simply to indicate that you will never monitor all variables, and yes many are interested in doing this. You have to decide by what measure to define the variables you would like to monitor:
Is fresh ground coffee important to you?
How fresh?
3 minutes?
60 seconds?
15 seconds?

How about weight?
10:1?
What about the tolerance on your scale?
What about air pressure?
A fan nearby?
Different elevation?

What about water temperature?
How about the tolerance of your probe?
Water source?
Impurities in the water?
Temperature of the brewing device?

I'm sure there are at least 1000 more variables that can be addressed by reasonable means.

If you want to worry about grind, I would first focus on your grinder. No matter what they say about this "system" it will not and cannot change the shape of the grind and will never be able to substitute a cheap grinder for a quality one. And even better, you don't have to spend 5-10 minutes shaking a small box to get your grounds. However, the work might make the coffee taste better, like lemonade after working in the yard all day. Also, I don't think this system will do what you expect it to, by giving you a direct readout of grinder conditions you listed above. This would vary grinder to grinder, bean to bean, day to day, etc....

More power to you for purchasing this system, without people to try new things we couldn't have progress. I would also curiously test it out. However, don't be fooled by their marketing ploy, it is not an end all be all for coffee grind. It is simply another variable to introduce into your daily routine. It might turn out great or might be terrible, destroying the complexity of the bean.

Evaluating the negatives of this product does not amount to trashing it, by giving it genuine thought, those posting here have done more for the product idea than those using it for an outlet of extra cash, buying into a new fad product for the heck of it (For the record I am not implying or saying that this is you.).

Offline Badam

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Re: Rafino sieving system
« Reply #52 on: April 20, 2016, 02:55:13 PM »
I actually own the patent on the curious level indicator as well as the diminishing returns from investment level and I am waiting for someone to send me the billion it will take to develop both - it's beyond kickstarter.

I could physically feel my curiosity level elevate when I read your reply Joe...I just don't know by how much. Damn. Somebody give the man some money so we can put a number on this new variable...jeez!

I got ideas..... lots of ideas!

Everyone always tells me to keep my ideas to myself.  :-\ :(

 ;D

Offline Joe

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Re: Rafino sieving system
« Reply #53 on: April 20, 2016, 02:56:50 PM »
I actually own the patent on the curious level indicator as well as the diminishing returns from investment level and I am waiting for someone to send me the billion it will take to develop both - it's beyond kickstarter.

I could physically feel my curiosity level elevate when I read your reply Joe...I just don't know by how much. Damn. Somebody give the man some money so we can put a number on this new variable...jeez!

I got ideas..... lots of ideas!

Everyone always tells me to keep my ideas to myself.  :-\ :(

 ;D

people always complain that I don't listen or something, I don't know I wasn't paying attention.
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Offline Ascholten

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Re: Rafino sieving system
« Reply #54 on: April 20, 2016, 03:01:14 PM »
Oh they want you to listen all right!  Listen all day and night hours and hours on end, they just don't want you replying is all.  What I have to say is important enough that you BETTER listen, but you are NOT allowed to comment on, answer back, etc.  Ahh... Marriage at it's finest :D

Aaron
As I have grown older, I have learned that pleasing everybody is impossible, but pissing everybody off is a piece of cake!

upshot

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Re: Rafino sieving system
« Reply #55 on: April 20, 2016, 03:46:50 PM »
Clearly your choices are more diverse than measuring all or none. My response was simply to indicate that you will never monitor all variables, and yes many are interested in doing this. You have to decide by what measure to define the variables you would like to monitor:
Is fresh ground coffee important to you?
How fresh?
3 minutes?
60 seconds?
15 seconds?

How about weight?
10:1?
What about the tolerance on your scale?
What about air pressure?
A fan nearby?
Different elevation?

What about water temperature?
How about the tolerance of your probe?
Water source?
Impurities in the water?
Temperature of the brewing device?

I'm sure there are at least 1000 more variables that can be addressed by reasonable means.

If you want to worry about grind, I would first focus on your grinder. No matter what they say about this "system" it will not and cannot change the shape of the grind and will never be able to substitute a cheap grinder for a quality one. And even better, you don't have to spend 5-10 minutes shaking a small box to get your grounds. However, the work might make the coffee taste better, like lemonade after working in the yard all day. Also, I don't think this system will do what you expect it to, by giving you a direct readout of grinder conditions you listed above. This would vary grinder to grinder, bean to bean, day to day, etc....

More power to you for purchasing this system, without people to try new things we couldn't have progress. I would also curiously test it out. However, don't be fooled by their marketing ploy, it is not an end all be all for coffee grind. It is simply another variable to introduce into your daily routine. It might turn out great or might be terrible, destroying the complexity of the bean.

Evaluating the negatives of this product does not amount to trashing it, by giving it genuine thought, those posting here have done more for the product idea than those using it for an outlet of extra cash, buying into a new fad product for the heck of it (For the record I am not implying or saying that this is you.).

I mistook your comment "It is an exercise in futility" to mean that measuring variables is futile. No worries...I think we are on the same page. My point about using the screens to "calibrate" a grinder are similarly misleading. Yes, a poor quality grinder will not produce the same results as a high quality grinder. A post grind screening can correct that, but at a cost of time and loss of product. In the case of monitoring moisture content of coffee beans the scenario is the same. You purchase 100 lbs of beans that have a moisture content of 13% and loose more to roasting than if you had purchased beans with 10% moisture content...plus you have a bean that will behave differently during the roast, maybe insignificantly, you just won't know if you don't quantify your variables. If a screen is used to ensure that a grinder is delivering the output that it was purchased to deliver, or to ensure proper maintenance standards are being maintained, that is a good thing. As I said, my interest is not in this product, but in having a tool to measure that my equipment is functioning as it should. As anyone, if I can achieve this with minimal expense, that would be swell. If not, then the level of importance of having this information would have to be evaluated...perhaps with Joe's level of importance monitoring device.

upshot

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Re: Rafino sieving system
« Reply #56 on: April 20, 2016, 03:53:14 PM »
I actually own the patent on the curious level indicator as well as the diminishing returns from investment level and I am waiting for someone to send me the billion it will take to develop both - it's beyond kickstarter.

I could physically feel my curiosity level elevate when I read your reply Joe...I just don't know by how much. Damn. Somebody give the man some money so we can put a number on this new variable...jeez!

I got ideas..... lots of ideas!

Everyone always tells me to keep my ideas to myself.  :-\ :(

 ;D

people always complain that I don't listen or something, I don't know I wasn't paying attention.

The first step in recovery is recognizing you have a problem. Joe? Joe?? JOE??

Offline Ascholten

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Re: Rafino sieving system
« Reply #57 on: April 20, 2016, 04:09:04 PM »
I would think that the first step in making your data useful is knowing how it applies and if it's important.

Buying beans with 10 percent moisture because you can get more bang for your buck than 15 percent moisture beans, hmm.  Something tells me that while you are pursuing more bang for your buck you are walking your way right to some old stale ass beans.  More information is not necessarily better if it's not pertinent or you are not knowledgeable to it's significance to your application.  There is little use in reinventing the wheel unless you just want to do it.  Maybe you can get the old guy to buy some buggy whips too  ;)

Aaron
As I have grown older, I have learned that pleasing everybody is impossible, but pissing everybody off is a piece of cake!

upshot

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Re: Rafino sieving system
« Reply #58 on: April 20, 2016, 05:01:43 PM »
I would think that the first step in making your data useful is knowing how it applies and if it's important.

Buying beans with 10 percent moisture because you can get more bang for your buck than 15 percent moisture beans, hmm.  Something tells me that while you are pursuing more bang for your buck you are walking your way right to some old stale ass beans.  More information is not necessarily better if it's not pertinent or you are not knowledgeable to it's significance to your application.  There is little use in reinventing the wheel unless you just want to do it.  Maybe you can get the old guy to buy some buggy whips too  ;)

Aaron

Good point Aaron...Joe? HEY JOE!! I've got a couple of buggy whips...you interested??

BTW, who said anything about using moisture content information to get more bang for one's buck? Obviously moisture content is relevant information, otherwise no one would care and moisture content would never be discussed in the coffee trade. Knowing whether the quality of ones purchased beans lives up to ones standards, and the claims of the seller, is not something I will ever leave to chance. EVER. Maybe you are more trusting than I. As far as having confidence that the output of my equipment, as in the case of the grinder, is consistent, I am not sure why one would leave that to chance either...especially if one has invested thousands of dollars in the equipment.

Basically, your position is that knowing the moisture content of green coffee is irrelevant, no? And having a way of knowing if your equipment if effing up is also immaterial right? :)


upshot

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Re: Rafino sieving system
« Reply #59 on: April 20, 2016, 06:13:41 PM »
Seriously look at 500 micron screen on google or water screen size is your ideal. Not too expensive...

eBay has listings for 12"x12" SS screens in 100 - 1000 micron sizes for about $7.00 each. That's a bit more affordable. So you're opinion is that 500 micron is the low threshold? I'm not that geeky about fines...in fact, I actually enjoy a muddy cup of coffee on occasion and break out the press. Not sure I'd purchase more than three screens though, unless I start geeking out real hard...hey, I'm not a young guy anymore and anything could happen!
« Last Edit: April 20, 2016, 06:30:32 PM by upshot »