Author Topic: $$ Machine = Better Shot?  (Read 20097 times)

Offline peter

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$$ Machine = Better Shot?
« on: April 02, 2008, 08:53:29 AM »
Quote
What a difference, I have a 50% Poco Fundo with 50% Sidamo Blend and the shots are impressive. I never had espressos like this before.

Machines can make a HUGE difference.  A couple years ago I caught wind of a coffee nook in a bookstore in an upscale suburb that was shutting down.  I talked to the corporate guy in charge of the bookstore, and he sold me the espresso machine and a Rossi commercial grinder....  $100 for both!  The espresso machine was an Astoria, identical to Monito's, but manual.  It didn't fit anywhere in my kitchen, and I wasn't in the mood to clean it up, nor run to the basement to pull shots so I sold it to a good friend.

Now to my point about different machines producing vastly different shots (and this is meant with no disrespect for B|Java's Sylvia).  This last New Year's Eve I was at the party my good friend Bill threw, and roasted up an espresso blend to play around with on the Astoria.  The shots were very, very good, thanks to Jeffo for the blend suggestion.  A few days later I took the remainder of the blend over to B|Java's and after repeated attempts, could not get anything worth drinking.  Now, I realize that it was mostly due to a novice running Ms. Sylvia, who was too clod-handed to know how to coax her into producing what she was capable of.  I tried temp-surfing.  It just seemed pretty drastic that the same procedure on two machines came out so different.

But B|Java's happy, producing good results, and for him Sylvia's the perfect mate.

(note, if this is messed up, I went to respond to PeterPockets and once again, hit the 'modify' rather than the 'quote' button.  GRRRRRRRR....BJ
« Last Edit: April 03, 2008, 04:20:59 AM by BoldJava »
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Offline mp

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« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2008, 09:25:10 AM »
Machines can make a HUGE difference.  A couple years ago I caught wind of a coffee nook in a bookstore in an upscale suburb that was shutting down.  I talked to the corporate guy in charge of the bookstore, and he sold me the espresso machine and a Rossi commercial grinder....  $100 for both!  The espresso machine was an Astoria, identical to Monito's, but manual.  It didn't fit anywhere in my kitchen, and I wasn't in the mood to clean it up, nor run to the basement to pull shots so I sold it to a good friend.

Now to my point about different machines producing vastly different shots (and this is meant with no disrespect for B|Java's Sylvia).  This last New Year's Eve I was at the party my good friend Bill threw, and roasted up an espresso blend to play around with on the Astoria.  The shots were very, very good, thanks to Jeffo for the blend suggestion.  A few days later I took the remainder of the blend over to B|Java's and after repeated attempts, could not get anything worth drinking.  Now, I realize that it was mostly due to a novice running Ms. Sylvia, who was too clod-handed to know how to coax her into producing what she was capable of.  I tried temp-surfing.  It just seemed pretty drastic that the same procedure on two machines came out so different.

But B|Java's happy, producing good results, and for him Sylvia's the perfect mate.

I agree with you 100% Peter.  I went from a Gaggia Carezza ... dabbled with a Precisia with PID for a couple of months ... and then pulled the trigger on the Isomac Tea ll.  On the other two machines I could not find a good combination with the Sumatra Mandling Estate beans no matter how hard I tried ... I was all set to relegate the coffee to cappuccino shots only.  Then tried one more time on the Isomac and I could not believe the flavour of the Sumatra.  When Shep had the mixing contest which was won by Jeffo and BoldJava's suggestion of Columbian 50% and Sumatra 50% and I tried that on the Isomac I thought WOW ... what a shot!

I'm very glad I bypassed the slight upgrade to 500 to 800 category and went for an HX machine.  What convinced me of the good shots produced by them was an email to Wholelattelove that asked them to compare the shot production quality of the Expobar Brewtus 2 and the Expobar Office Lever assuming all things being equal.  The tech support person answered back that all things being equal the shot quality would be the same.  The 1.4 liter boiler steams like a choo choo train.  The E61 group assures that I produce good shots 100% percent of the time.  Of course if one wants to get extremely technical I suppose that one could get a PID and a temperature probe at the group head as well as portafilter gauge to accurately measure the pump pressure to assure the absolute strictest adherence to temperature stability at coffee extraction point and exactly 9 bars of pressure ... but hey I've never had better espresso in my life.  The taste of the shots I've been having have been heavenly.  Having said that if I run into someone with a commercial machine plumbed in and does the high quality fresh roasted beans bit and I try one of their shots ... all bets may be off ... I may have to go commercial.

 ;D
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Offline staylor

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« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2008, 11:57:08 AM »
Machines can make a HUGE difference.  A couple years ago I caught wind of a coffee nook in a bookstore in an upscale suburb that was shutting down.  I talked to the corporate guy in charge of the bookstore, and he sold me the espresso machine and a Rossi commercial grinder....  $100 for both!  The espresso machine was an Astoria, identical to Monito's, but manual.  It didn't fit anywhere in my kitchen, and I wasn't in the mood to clean it up, nor run to the basement to pull shots so I sold it to a good friend.

Now to my point about different machines producing vastly different shots (and this is meant with no disrespect for B|Java's Sylvia).  This last New Year's Eve I was at the party my good friend Bill threw, and roasted up an espresso blend to play around with on the Astoria.  The shots were very, very good, thanks to Jeffo for the blend suggestion.  A few days later I took the remainder of the blend over to B|Java's and after repeated attempts, could not get anything worth drinking.  Now, I realize that it was mostly due to a novice running Ms. Sylvia, who was too clod-handed to know how to coax her into producing what she was capable of.  I tried temp-surfing.  It just seemed pretty drastic that the same procedure on two machines came out so different.

But B|Java's happy, producing good results, and for him Sylvia's the perfect mate.

I agree with you 100% Peter.  I went from a Gaggia Carezza ... dabbled with a Precisia with PID for a couple of months ... and then pulled the trigger on the Isomac Tea ll.  On the other two machines I could not find a good combination with the Sumatra Mandling Estate beans no matter how hard I tried ... I was all set to relegate the coffee to cappuccino shots only.  Then tried one more time on the Isomac and I could not believe the flavour of the Sumatra.  When Shep had the mixing contest which was won by Jeffo and BoldJava's suggestion of Columbian 50% and Sumatra 50% and I tried that on the Isomac I thought WOW ... what a shot!

I'm very glad I bypassed the slight upgrade to 500 to 800 category and went for an HX machine.  What convinced me of the good shots produced by them was an email to Wholelattelove that asked them to compare the shot production quality of the Expobar Brewtus 2 and the Expobar Office Lever assuming all things being equal.  The tech support person answered back that all things being equal the shot quality would be the same.  The 1.4 liter boiler steams like a choo choo train.  The E61 group assures that I produce good shots 100% percent of the time.  Of course if one wants to get extremely technical I suppose that one could get a PID and a temperature probe at the group head as well as portafilter gauge to accurately measure the pump pressure to assure the absolute strictest adherence to temperature stability at coffee extraction point and exactly 9 bars of pressure ... but hey I've never had better espresso in my life.  The taste of the shots I've been having have been heavenly.  Having said that if I run into someone with a commercial machine plumbed in and does the high quality fresh roasted beans bit and I try one of their shots ... all bets may be off ... I may have to go commercial.

 ;D

Machines can make a difference, but only in the hands of someone who can pull a good shot. What's a good shot, well I suppose it's the good shot that the particular shot-puller thinks is good. ;-)

Just a few years ago I used to think my shots were pretty good, they weren't, but I had no real terms of reference for what espresso could be. Now that I've been exposed to some of the "best espresso in the world pulled by some of the world's best baristas" and tried a huge amount of retail espresso beans, along with lots of home blending and pulled thousands of shots I'm just starting to think I pull a reasonably good shot. Uhmmmmm, yeah, what was my point...

Actually it was regarding the disservice that the tech support service person at WLL provided when they said the shot quality would be the same. Not possible. Two very different machines. On the surface it appears they might be similar, they aren't. At a minimum the BII has the advantage of a controlled temp environment so that a newbie espresso puller has a much better chance of pulling a relatively good shot, whereas the Office Lever being an HX temp surfer requires a much more experienced hand and even then provides a difficult variable to control with confidence. The intra and inter-shot differences across one shot or several back to back shots would demonstrate this quite well - in capable hands. No offense to anyone here as this isn't directed at anyone in particular, it's just a general commentary.

I'll finish with saying that I've drank shots off $15,000 commercial machines and they were horrendous and drank shots off machines worth 1/10th that value and they were sublime. Machines matter, and they are a piece of a much larger puzzle which includes beans, barista, technique, cleanliness, water, grinder, roaster, storage, and the much sought after espresso-fu.

Offline mp

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$$ Machine = Better Shot?
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2008, 12:33:01 PM »
Machines can make a difference, but only in the hands of someone who can pull a good shot. What's a good shot, well I suppose it's the good shot that the particular shot-puller thinks is good. ;-)

Just a few years ago I used to think my shots were pretty good, they weren't, but I had no real terms of reference for what espresso could be. Now that I've been exposed to some of the "best espresso in the world pulled by some of the world's best baristas" and tried a huge amount of retail espresso beans, along with lots of home blending and pulled thousands of shots I'm just starting to think I pull a reasonably good shot. Uhmmmmm, yeah, what was my point...

Actually it was regarding the disservice that the tech support service person at WLL provided when they said the shot quality would be the same. Not possible. Two very different machines. On the surface it appears they might be similar, they aren't. At a minimum the BII has the advantage of a controlled temp environment so that a newbie espresso puller has a much better chance of pulling a relatively good shot, whereas the Office Lever being an HX temp surfer requires a much more experienced hand and even then provides a difficult variable to control with confidence. The intra and inter-shot differences across one shot or several back to back shots would demonstrate this quite well - in capable hands. No offense to anyone here as this isn't directed at anyone in particular, it's just a general commentary.

I'll finish with saying that I've drank shots off $15,000 commercial machines and they were horrendous and drank shots off machines worth 1/10th that value and they were sublime. Machines matter, and they are a piece of a much larger puzzle which includes beans, barista, technique, cleanliness, water, grinder, roaster, storage, and the much sought after espresso-fu.

Shaun,

You present an interesting perspective in that you are a professional barista.  You have been exposed to far greater coffee machines (espresso makers & grinders), coffees, barista's etc.  I can state emphatically that the coffee that I am drinking now is the best I personally have ever experienced ... however it is the best "I" have experienced.  I do not have all the exposure that you have to espresso (lucky guy) so this is based on my limited experience.  The amount I spent on my HX is worth every penny and with a few mods can be made to produce the digital accuracy of a PID and group thermo coupler to ascertain absolute precise temperature.  Am I prepared to shall out for this right now ... emphatically no.  I'm still tinkled pink at the amazing espresso shots I am able to pull with this machine.  Are the results repeatable for me ... yes ... always ... I just wait till the machine is up to the right temperature at least 20 minutes from cold, then I pour 2 shots of water to warm up the cups, put the coffee in the grinder, grind and fill the portafilter, lightly tamp it, and pull the shot.  Nice thick crema the likes of which I've never achieved before come pouring out and I stop it once each cup has 2 ounces of espresso heaven in it.  Is this scientifically accurate ... no ... it is most pleasing though to my wife and I and anyone else who ventured to try the coffee.

On the other hand you mentioned that you've had espresso on a $15,000 machine that was bad and an espresso on a $1,500 machine that was sublime.  I'm wondering about the variables on that ... ie was the barista the same, was it the same coffee, was the water the same, was the roaster, grinder, storage, cleanliness and espresso-fu the same?

We then enter an area of budget and bank for the buck.  How much green can you afford to pursue this hobby with and how much better a coffee can a $15,000 machine produce over a $2,000 machine ... given ALL things equal.  In my mind it may be slightly better but then you would be out of pocket $13,000 big ones for a slightly marginal better espresso.

That is my limited experience 2 cents worth.

 ;D
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Offline John F

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$$ Machine = Better Shot?
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2008, 12:51:49 PM »
Machines matter, and they are a piece of a much larger puzzle which includes beans, barista, technique, cleanliness, water, grinder, roaster, storage, and the much sought after espresso-fu.

Pick your order sir....

I pick this:

Beans/roaster/storage  (impossible to separate...it's a chain)
Grinder
Barista/technique (chain)
Machine
Water

Espresso-fu seeks it's own level.  ;)

I feel like dejavu... :-\

Machine can't overcome bad coffee or poor technique...bad grind is death...Machine is the tool, the workhorse and must deliver specific criteria but the art is with #'s 1,2,3.

John F



 
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Lee Morrison

Offline staylor

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« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2008, 01:37:45 PM »
In order to continue this offshoot I'll make things brief rather than distract from the "Hey check out my espresso machine".

First, I'm probably the best barista on my street but there's no assurances there, beyond that I have no idea. Second, the two points I was trying make were 1) The machine is important but not the solution, 2) There is a very big difference between a stock Office Lever and stock Brewtus II.

And now to the post you just made, MP...

I've always believed and will always support that espresso is as good or bad as the espresso drinker thinks it is. Espresso doesn't exist as a taste other than what the experience is for the individual in that particular moment. My palate, your palate and JohnF's are different. What I like, you might not. My sense of what espresso can be may be a much broader and wilder interpretation of what is "normal" than yours - that doesn't make it right or wrong, just different. Of course there are generally recognized tastes and smells, colors and textures and within that it's fair to say that horrendously sour espresso is, well, horrendous.

A lot of what goes in to a good espresso is simply a matter of removing or controlling variables and also understanding how those variables play against/with each other. Taking the Office Lever vs. the BII is a classic example of additional variables to manage, the Office Lever requires temp surfing plain and simple. No matter what routine a person has with a temp surfing machine, they can never precisely control/experiment from shot to shot to see what the variable called temperature may be adding/subtracting regarding the coffee. Sure, it's easier to be more precise with an Office Lever if mods are made, but, then it wouldn't be a stock Office Lever.

I'm not suggesting your espresso machine, or anyone else's espresso machine for that matter, is deficient in any way. My main thrust is... the espresso machine is important and can make a difference within the much larger puzzle of all the things I mentioned in my previous post. Ultimately, you currently have a machine that is producing the best espresso available and you couldn't be happier and that's what's important.

One of your questions,

"On the other hand you mentioned that you've had espresso on a $15,000 machine that was bad and an espresso on a $1,500 machine that was sublime.  I'm wondering about the variables on that ... ie was the barista the same, was it the same coffee, was the water the same, was the roaster, grinder, storage, cleanliness and espresso-fu the same?"

really illustrates the point I'm trying to make. Even when the barista is the same, on the same machine, using the same water, grinder, bean, yadda, yadda, yadda, when everything was the same shot to shot - sometimes one shot is better than the other - huh? What could cause that? Was the technique realllllllly exactly the same, was that distribution just as focused, did the PF "clank" against the grouphead when it got placed in, was it a 1/2 gram off or could it have been a creeping differential pressurization in the boiler, ohhhhhh drat, it was the hot grinder throwing things off a bit due to the previous back to back shot-grindings which changed the subtleties of the shot. One potential variable amongst many subtle variables amongst many obvious variables, all playing off against each other in millions of potential chains. Espresso is as simple or complicated as a person wants to make it, a deeper understanding and a broader exposure to all things espresso has confirmed my "reverse pyramid" theory (it's my theory, mine, mine, mine, hahaha) which generally proposes that the more you understand, the more you understand how much more there is to understand. Love that one.

And so, for final clarity I will repeat... it's not the machine, nor the retail value of the machine that makes for good espresso.

I'm now intellectually espresso-fu'd out for the day. Time to go roast.

Offline staylor

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« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2008, 01:39:28 PM »
Machines matter, and they are a piece of a much larger puzzle which includes beans, barista, technique, cleanliness, water, grinder, roaster, storage, and the much sought after espresso-fu.

Pick your order sir....

I pick this:

Beans/roaster/storage  (impossible to separate...it's a chain)
Grinder
Barista/technique (chain)
Machine
Water

Espresso-fu seeks it's own level.  ;)

I feel like dejavu... :-\

Machine can't overcome bad coffee or poor technique...bad grind is death...Machine is the tool, the workhorse and must deliver specific criteria but the art is with #'s 1,2,3.

John F



 

Just saw your post, my fu is too weak to respond. ;-)

Offline mp

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« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2008, 02:20:05 PM »
And so, for final clarity I will repeat... it's not the machine, nor the retail value of the machine that makes for good espresso.

Shaun,

That was quite eloquent.  Unfortunately I still don't understand why the same coffee  I was drinking in my previous two machines doesn't taste as good as it does on this one (all things the same except the machine).

 ::)
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Offline John F

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« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2008, 02:59:31 PM »
Espresso doesn't exist as a taste other than what the experience is for the individual in that particular moment.

And for that we give thanks.....

 :wav:


John >:D F




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BoldJava

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$$ Machine = Better Shot?
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2008, 04:01:13 PM »

...

Now to my point about different machines producing vastly different shots (and this is meant with no disrespect for B|Java's Sylvia).  This last New Year's Eve I was at the party my good friend Bill threw, and roasted up an espresso blend to play around with on the Astoria.  The shots were very, very good, thanks to Jeffo for the blend suggestion.  A few days later I took the remainder of the blend over to B|Java's and after repeated attempts, could not get anything worth drinking.  Now, I realize that it was mostly due to a novice running Ms. Sylvia, who was too clod-handed to know how to coax her into producing what she was capable of.  I tried temp-surfing.  It just seemed pretty drastic that the same procedure on two machines came out so different.

But B|Java's happy, producing good results, and for him Sylvia's the perfect mate.

B|Silvia is very happy.  As I have said, milk covers a multitude of sins.  I have had shots one time in my life and that was with Curly in the Twin Cities.  And I thought scotch was an acquired taste....

RE:  Machines.  When we were at Intelli in Chicago, they had a 3-group Zocco for us to play on.  I asked Ryan from Roast Company to teach me to make a tighter foam.  I walked up to that Zocco and it was like a Maserati after driving a Model-T.  Wow.

B|Java
« Last Edit: April 02, 2008, 04:03:24 PM by BoldJava »

Offline staylor

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« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2008, 04:07:10 PM »
And so, for final clarity I will repeat... it's not the machine, nor the retail value of the machine that makes for good espresso.

Shaun,

That was quite eloquent.  Unfortunately I still don't understand why the same coffee  I was drinking in my previous two machines doesn't taste as good as it does on this one (all things the same except the machine).

 ::)



Case in point...

Let's start from the basics. The coffee you drank then is not the coffee you drink now. That was then, this is now.

Huh?

Well, your roasting skills were different, your technique was different, your level of knowledge was different, the greens were different, how you tamped was different, the weight of your dose was different, the temp was different and so on and so forth. It wasn't the machines it was a lot of things other than the machines - now you simply have a different variable to control - the newer machine.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2008, 04:08:53 PM by staylor »

Offline PaulM

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« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2008, 04:34:30 PM »
And so, for final clarity I will repeat... it's not the machine, nor the retail value of the machine that makes for good espresso.

Shaun,

That was quite eloquent.  Unfortunately I still don't understand why the same coffee  I was drinking in my previous two machines doesn't taste as good as it does on this one (all things the same except the machine).

 ::)



Case in point...

Let's start from the basics. The coffee you drank then is not the coffee you drink now. That was then, this is now.

Huh?

Well, your roasting skills were different, your technique was different, your level of knowledge was different, the greens were different, how you tamped was different, the weight of your dose was different, the temp was different and so on and so forth. It wasn't the machines it was a lot of things other than the machines - now you simply have a different variable to control - the newer machine.

I'm feeling more than a little like Bill Lumberg from Office Space, but I have to say that, "hmmmmm, yeah. I'm going to have to go ahead and, sort of disagree with you there, okay?"  ;)  :D

I think the only variable MP has changed is the machine, and he is seeing superior results just from that. I have had similar experiences every time I upgraded (except regarding the darned milk, where upgrades just seem to set me back further and further...), and I think the only explanation is that given a certain set of skills and other equipment (what has been called "all things being equal" in this thread), the right machine upgrade can result in immediate improvement. To me it seems difficult to argue otherwise, anyway, since one ends up at reductio ad absurdum before too long.

None of that is to diminish the need to be reasonably competent and alert, and to have a good grinder and system. I just think that it is impossible to deny that, given these things, a machine upgrade actually can produce superior results. Put another way, (most of) these machines don't command the premiums they do from market hype alone. And yes I mean to single out the GS/3.  ;D
« Last Edit: April 02, 2008, 04:37:41 PM by PaulM »
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Offline staylor

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« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2008, 05:10:05 PM »
I'm feeling more than a little like Bill Lumberg from Office Space, but I have to say that, "hmmmmm, yeah. I'm going to have to go ahead and, sort of disagree with you there, okay?"  ;)  :D

I think the only variable MP has changed is the machine, and he is seeing superior results just from that. I have had similar experiences every time I upgraded (except regarding the darned milk, where upgrades just seem to set me back further and further...), and I think the only explanation is that given a certain set of skills and other equipment (what has been called "all things being equal" in this thread), the right machine upgrade can result in immediate improvement. To me it seems difficult to argue otherwise, anyway, since one ends up at reductio ad absurdum before too long.

None of that is to diminish the need to be reasonably competent and alert, and to have a good grinder and system. I just think that it is impossible to deny that, given these things, a machine upgrade actually can produce superior results. Put another way, (most of) these machines don't command the premiums they do from market hype alone. And yes I mean to single out the GS/3.  ;D

Sorry, don't watch Office Space. But here's the thing...

The variable I was pointing at was time. Over time he got better. Unless of course the timeline he owned the three machines was a single month. If the three machines were owned over a period of a year that's a years worth of advancement in variable's knowledge (in espresso time, like dog years, a year's a really long time) whether or not his first machine was a LM, a BII or a GS3 isn't the point, the point is the more you know, the more you know. Yes, a "more competent machine" can offer the potential for more repeatable, better espresso but with all the variables involved it's hard to simply point at new machine = guaranteed better espresso. Example, someone spends more money to get a commercial HX machine because they believe this will give them better espresso, that might work out to be the case, or not. Simply, working a commercial HX machine is not easy, go work one for a few days and then report back. A $300 machine might put out a better shot than a $1000 machine dependent on one variable, temperature. The $300 machine might have a tighter temperature band than the $1000 machine on an inter and intra shot basis. Spending $5000 doesn't guarantee anything. "Upgrading" doesn't necessarily mean upgrading.

To use MP as an example of how difficult it is to be about precise evaluation on espresso advancement, the dose's have been different throughout MP's espresso life as he doesn't weigh the dose (I did read that correctly, right?) and we know the technique has been different because our skills evolve - those two simple variable change the equation significantly - the old machine, new machine debate can't even be discussed as his technique is not repeatable. For anyone out there, I don't want to debate whether or not a .5 or 1 gram dose difference can be detected, it can.

I don't know what MP's previous espresso machine was, and it really doesn't matter, the newer machine seems to be fitting the needs and that's all that counts I guess.

Offline PaulM

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« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2008, 05:35:57 PM »
Hey Shaun,

I agree with most of that. I'll just add an anecdote: When I was a kid just starting to play bass in a garage band, we were all playing with hand-me-down instruments courtesy of friends and relatives. The guitar and bass and amps were marginally acceptable, but our drummer, instead of having a hi-hat, used a metal lunch box (remember those!) full of pennies, strapped to a music stand. Yes, a lunch box full of pennies strapped to a music stand. We were like 12 or 13 at the time, and we took what we could get. And we thought we were great!

Then one day my guitarist's older brother, a drummer, probably 25 at the time, and very good, came up to announce that our version of "Rock You Like A Hurricane" sounded more like "Rock You Like a Horrible Disaster" to everyone who heard it down in the kitchen. Then he took a seat behind our "drum set" and encouraged us to try again. And let me tell you, he made that "drum set" SING! Lunchbox full of pennies and all. Damn, I still remember how good he made that awful rig sound.

Anyway, I think there are two lessons there. First, anyone with real skill can get the most out of even the most mediocre equipment.

Second, anyone with a certain level of skill can get better results with better equipment. I mean, I'm sure my friend's brother would have sounded even better that afternoon with a real hi-hat, rather than that lunchbox full of pennies....
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Offline John F

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$$ Machine = Better Shot?
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2008, 05:51:08 PM »
I mean, I'm sure my friend's brother would have sounded even better that afternoon with a real hi-hat, rather than that lunchbox full of pennies....


How much better?

As good as the other guy?

Would Neal Peart's set make him able to play Subdivisions?

Better tools are obviously superior to inadequate ones so better espresso machines (meaning the ability to produce repeatable results eliminating variables...temp/pressure) are certainly going to help "the drummer".

Hi hat is much more stable than penny box. PID is much more stable than temp surf.

I think Neal Peart would have drummed circles around your guitarist's brother on that lunch box.  8)



John F

« Last Edit: April 02, 2008, 05:57:32 PM by John F »
"At no point should you be in condition white unless you are in your bed sleeping with your doors locked."

Lee Morrison