Help With Vivaldi

[peter]

Yikes. Friday morning I made my usual americano w/ 2 doubles with my 4-month old Vivaldi (which I love), left the machine on, and went to make a latte at noon. When I hit the double button to do a warm-up flush, nothing but the pre-infusion water. When I drew 3-4oz. from the hot water tap, that was fine, but then it began to refill the steam boiler and never did; the pump continually ran until it shut off and gave me the flashing boiler light alarm.

A little more detail... At idle, the manometer reads ~4bar. When I hit the double or single button, the pump runs, the manometer goes to its usual ~9.5bar, but almost immediately the 3 LEDs flash as when it is choked or back-flushing. This is with the steam boiler off; if I turn that on, it immediately tries to refill, but can't.

The first thing I checked was the incoming water. Right after the charcoal filter and softening cartridge, there is good pressure and flow. Tried unplugging the machine, thinking something may have to reset, nada.

I called Chris' which is where I bought this last May. Their tech asked a bunch of questions, and at first thought it might be the screen going into the fill valve. But then realizing the group had no water coming from it, he backed up on the water path and thought it might be the piston, which is part #280 on page 12 here;
http://s1cafe.com/s1v2/V2%20Manuals/RICAMBI%20S1%20NEW.pdf

So I took off the front, back and right side panels, and all the fittings on that valve body and the expansion valve to get at that piston. No signs of any mineral deposits or shavings, or any obstruction. Put everything back together, tested it, same symptoms.

The best thing about this fiasco is that I now understand the path of water, from the inlet to the pump, to the tee and then either to the flowmeter to the group boiler, or the fill valve to the steam boiler. There's still more about the innards that I don't know, but I know a thousand times more now than I did this morning.

By that time Chris' was closing, and now we will continue over-the-phone troubleshooting on Monday.

[mp]

Peter ... I am certainly no expert on Schotzie ... however in simplistic terms ... it sounds as if the water path is being blocked somewhere along the line.

 

[BoldJava]

Peter ... I am certainly no expert on Schotzie ... however in simplistic terms ... it sounds as if the water path is being blocked somewhere along the line.

 

Yep, kidney stones.

B|Java

[mp]

Peter ... I am certainly no expert on Schotzie ... however in simplistic terms ... it sounds as if the water path is being blocked somewhere along the line.

 

Yep, kidney stones.

B|Java

At such a young age?

 

[Tex]

When I have a water flow problem, I start at the pump and disconnect the fittings one-by-one 'til I find the stoppage. Tedious, but 100% effective!

It's very unlikely that your new machine is plugged since you're filtering the water. Most likely a solenoid valve coil shorted out. Check you refill solenoid coil: http://www.appliance411.com/faq/test-water-valve.shtml

edited: Your sediment filter is after the softener in the water path, isn't it?

[John F]

Sucks!

I'd be laying on the floor trying to keep my heart rate down if I were in your spot.

I hope you sort it out soon brother...I feel for ya.

[peter]

When I have a water flow problem, I start at the pump and disconnect the fittings one-by-one 'til I find the stoppage. Tedious, but 100% effective!

It's very unlikely that your new machine is plugged since you're filtering the water. Most likely the coil shorted out. Check you refill solenoid coil: http://www.appliance411.com/faq/test-water-valve.shtml

I suspect that's what the tech will be suggesting tomorrow, to start at the pump and work up the chain.  If that's the route to take, I'm going to get a friend to help; the filters and shut-off are in the basement, so can't undo a fitting, go downstairs to open the shut-off and run up to see if there's flow.  

The solenoid for the fill valve could be bad, but then it should still have water to the group.  The tee that splits the flow off to the fill valve also sends water to the flow meter.  I guess both sides of the flow could have had a malfunction, but you wouldn't think it'd happen at the same time.  

I'm guessing there might some electronic snafu that is monkeying with the fill valve and the flow meter.

Here's a question for you...  the only parts diagram I can find shows the manometer reading off the steam boiler.  Mine has the dual manometer, and it reads group pressure off the group boiler, right?  If it is reading 9bar at the group, wouldn't that mean that water/pressure is making its way from the pump all the way to the group boiler?

Sucks!

I'd be laying on the floor trying to keep my heart rate down if I were in your spot.

I hope you sort it out soon brother...I feel for ya.

Thanks.  I'm trying to tell myself that I'm getting an education on espresso machines.  Friday I was totally bummed out, yesterday not so much.  Today, I'm realizing that if this is all I have to worry about my life is pretty good.

What sucks is having a nice machine and a week-old Compak K10 that I can't play with.  I don't mind doing pourovers and vacpots all that much, but I have grown to appreciate good shots and am jonesing for one.

[Jeffo]

What sucks is having a nice machine and a week-old Compak K10 that I can't play with.  I don't mind doing pourovers and vacpots all that much, but I have grown to appreciate good shots and am jonesing for one.

If you like blonds I can give you plenty of those.

[Tex]

When I have a water flow problem, I start at the pump and disconnect the fittings one-by-one 'til I find the stoppage. Tedious, but 100% effective!

It's very unlikely that your new machine is plugged since you're filtering the water. Most likely the coil shorted out. Check you refill solenoid coil: http://www.appliance411.com/faq/test-water-valve.shtml

I suspect that's what the tech will be suggesting tomorrow, to start at the pump and work up the chain.  If that's the route to take, I'm going to get a friend to help; the filters and shut-off are in the basement, so can't undo a fitting, go downstairs to open the shut-off and run up to see if there's flow.  

The solenoid for the fill valve could be bad, but then it should still have water to the group.  The tee that splits the flow off to the fill valve also sends water to the flow meter.  I guess both sides of the flow could have had a malfunction, but you wouldn't think it'd happen at the same time.  

I'm guessing there might some electronic snafu that is monkeying with the fill valve and the flow meter.

Here's a question for you...  the only parts diagram I can find shows the manometer reading off the steam boiler.  Mine has the dual manometer, and it reads group pressure off the group boiler, right?  If it is reading 9bar at the group, wouldn't that mean that water/pressure is making its way from the pump all the way to the group boiler?

I don't know exactly how your machine is plumbed, so this is just a guess OK?

Most machines have a tube running from the pump¹ to the gauge, so what you're reading is actually pump pressure, not boiler or group pressure. If yours is like this, then it'd be expected that the gauge would read ~9bar whenever the pump's on.

One thing that'd be helpful is to get a diagram of your machine, not the older model. If you do get it, please post it here so I can download a copy.

¹Or at some point near the split between the refill solenoid & the flow meter.

[milowebailey]

  If that's the route to take, I'm going to get a friend to help; the filters and shut-off are in the basement, so can't undo a fitting, go downstairs to open the shut-off and run up to see if there's flow.  

Peter

May I suggest you go to a hardware store an get one of these and put it in line with your machine in the kitchen.... best if you can turn water off at the machine.

[GC7]

It's probably your boiler fill solenoid that is not opening.  A key I think would be if hot water is returning to your tank or being diverted (if plumbed in) to the drain while at 9 bar. I am certainly not an expert but on my machine I believe a boiler fill after using the tap should run at about 3 bar.

[Tex]

  If that's the route to take, I'm going to get a friend to help; the filters and shut-off are in the basement, so can't undo a fitting, go downstairs to open the shut-off and run up to see if there's flow.  

Peter

May I suggest you go to a hardware store an get one of these and put it in line with your machine in the kitchen.... best if you can turn water off at the machine.

+1

A shut off at the machine is a MUST HAVE item!

[peter]

  If that's the route to take, I'm going to get a friend to help; the filters and shut-off are in the basement, so can't undo a fitting, go downstairs to open the shut-off and run up to see if there's flow.  

Peter

May I suggest you go to a hardware store an get one of these and put it in line with your machine in the kitchen.... best if you can turn water off at the machine.

+1

A shut off at the machine is a MUST HAVE item!

OK.  That won't be hard to do.  A 1/4" line comes up from the basement and connects via a John Guest fitting to the braided steel line that goes to the machine.  The meet under the cabinet the machine sits on, and that would be where I could put another shut-off valve; just cut that tube and install another John Guest shut-off.

Today I turned it on, just to see how it's acting up before I call Chris' again.  Now the group seems to be working OK.  I haven't pulled any shots, but it's pushing water through, first the 4 second pre-infusion and then the pump kicks in.  Odd, how that's OK today, but not on Friday. 

It's probably your boiler fill solenoid that is not opening.  I key I think would be if hot water is returning to your tank or being diverted (if plumbed in) to the drain while at 9 bar. I am certainly not an expert but on my machine I believe a boiler fill after using the tap should run at about 3 bar.

I'll turn my focus to the fill valve now, and/or the screen just ahead of it.

If your gauge is showing 3 bar during a boiler refill, that should be what your line pressure is.  I'll bet the gauge is reading 3 bar when the machine is idle too.

[GC7]

Peter

I'm running off a water reservoir tank using a QM Anita HX machine and not plumbed in.  My next machine will be the Vivaldi plumbed in at my espresso bar in our new home. I had a solenoid failure and I knew the symptoms by isolating the water returning to the tank during an attempted refill and noting that it was at 9 bar and very hot. When repaired and under normal conditions it was 3 or more precisely 3.3 bar. It should be pretty simple to diagnose and repair though its always a PIA to be without espresso.

GOOD LUCK!

[peter]

Thanks all.  The drought is over and Schotzie is back together.

Other than the mystery ailment that kept water from the group, which somehow fixed itself over the weekend, the real problem was an improperly installed screen just ahead of the fill valve for the steam boiler.  As soon as I opened up the port on the solenoid I could see the problem.  It's not really a screen, but a sintered metal disc w/ a thin brass ring.  It was wedged in there sideways and squished, leading me to believe it was a Friday afternoon after a long lunch of sausage and Sangria.  The tech at Chris' said that the factory puts that screen in because they can't count on people using a filter upline, and that I can run w/o it.

This would've been a fairly easy fix and it would've been up and running Saturday a.m., if the group problem wouldn't have been there.  To get at what they thought was the problem meant undoing a bunch of fittings and lines, and then dismantling the valve with the spring/piston.  The headache there, apart from just getting the valve out is that the factory doesn't use teflon tape or thread compound; they use some sort of Locktite.  It works, until you have to take it apart, that is.  So a couple of fittings were leaking, and even though I got the screen in the fill valve square away easy enough I still had to take that valve out along with the expansion valve, and clean up the threads and redo that work from Friday.

I'm glad to have this first episode out of the way.  Like people say, any espresso machine will need repair eventually, and now that I've cut my teeth on this repair the next one won't produce as much nervous anxiety.  The older I get, the more stuff like this rocks my world for the first time through something.  When I was younger I liked a challenge, now they seem to scare me.