Author Topic: Best espresso machine for under 2000.00  (Read 3837 times)

Offline mp

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Re: Best espresso machine for under 2000.00
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2010, 02:19:41 PM »
Tigeranteater,

I would not be too worried about it.  

There are basically 5 things to look for when producing a great espresso shot:
(1)  Miscela (Espresso Blend) - fresh and high quality bean mixture (GCBC helps you with that)
(2)  Macinadosatore (Coffee Grinder) - a commercial espresso grinder is best suited for that in order to get the proper grind.
(3)  Macchina Espresso (Espresso Machine) - one that produces the exact temperature at the group head and the right water pressure.
(4)  Mano dell'operatore (Skill of the User) - This one is all based on your efforts and research (practice makes perfect)
(5)  Manutenzione (Maintenance) - cleaning and descaling of your machine on a regular basis.

By purchasing one of the forementioned machines you eliminate "la Macchina" from the equation.

Ai capito?

 :)
« Last Edit: June 01, 2010, 05:00:44 AM by mp »
1-Cnter, 2-Bean, 3-Skin, 4-Parchmnt, 5-Pect, 6-Pu
lp, 7-Ski

Offline Warrior372

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Re: Best espresso machine for under 2000.00
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2010, 02:20:18 PM »
There are a great number of people in the forum who can, and will, help you through your early days of espresso making. Do not be scared of the machine or the process. Things like PIDs, which the Alex II and Alex Duetto II do have, help eliminate some of the guess work involved in shot extraction. It eliminates the guess work involved in water 'temperature surfing'. A Rancilio Rocky is an Okay grinder. They lack a little in the area of grind consistency, which is a big part of making great espresso. You want your grinds as uniform as possible. A digital scale will help you be more consistent early on too. It will allow you to grind the optimal amount of coffee shot after shot. Tamp size, you want it to fit in the portafilter line-to-line, and tamp pressure are both big variables as well. You set your portafilter on a scale while tamping early on. This will allow you to achieve the most optimal pressure, around 30lbs, and will also allow you to better be able to repeat this pressure time-after-time until you have the feel down.

The most important thing with espresso equipment is to keep it clean and properly maintained! Most people treat their equipment like crap, and as a result have a lot of problems with their machines.

Offline Tigeranteater

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Re: Best espresso machine for under 2000.00
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2010, 03:52:27 AM »
It would be great if anyone is in the Chattanooga area but alas it is a coffee wasteland. Larry is out in Seattle and I know Dave is in Cheese country. I travel a lot with my job so maybe I can get with someone soon. This forum is a wealth of information with quality people that truly make it a community.

BoldJava

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Re: Best espresso machine for under 2000.00
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2010, 04:16:57 AM »
Dave may be in Cheese Country, but he doesn't know squat about espresso except to lead you to Peter's place. <grins>.

You are welcome here anytime.  I show you the fridge and give you the first beer.  Thereafter, you have to run for your own <wink>.

B|Java

Tex

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Re: Best espresso machine for under 2000.00
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2010, 07:20:49 AM »
It would be great if anyone is in the Chattanooga area but alas it is a coffee wasteland. Larry is out in Seattle and I know Dave is in Cheese country. I travel a lot with my job so maybe I can get with someone soon. This forum is a wealth of information with quality people that truly make it a community.

If you're ever in the Houston area, drop by the Harmon house, please.  ;D

milowebailey

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Re: Best espresso machine for under 2000.00
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2010, 08:10:19 AM »
It would be great if anyone is in the Chattanooga area but alas it is a coffee wasteland. Larry is out in Seattle and I know Dave is in Cheese country. I travel a lot with my job so maybe I can get with someone soon. This forum is a wealth of information with quality people that truly make it a community.
If you come to Seattle let me know a few days ahead of time... and plan on bringing some of that prize winning homebrew ;D

Offline expy98

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Re: Best espresso machine for under 2000.00
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2010, 02:29:47 PM »
I'm going to be selling a Vivaldi Mini 2 in the next week or two. Any interest?

Mark,

I'd sent you email via your website after seeing your post for the Mini some
months back.  I've tried more than once but never got a reply from you, prob
lost in translation...

Pls give me your contact info or email me via my logon id.

Thanks.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2010, 02:34:13 PM by expy98 »

Offline shakin_jake

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Re: Best espresso machine for under 2000.00
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2010, 10:21:40 AM »
I am looking into getting an espresso machine and was trying to get the best I could aford at that price level. I was looking at the Andreja Premiun and the Alex Duetto II. The Alex is slightly over the budget. What is your opinion and do you have experience with these machines? Is there anything else to look at?
Steve



~~~Tiger,  You're making the classic n00b espresso mistake...thinking the pathway to espresso nirvana is gained through buying a glamorous espresso machine

I read further where you said you have a Ranchillio Rocky grinder, you thinking that will pair well with your new espresso machine

The $2K espresso machines are great but not with a sub standard espresso grinder, so if $2K is your espresso budget, you need to re-think your espresso machine choice because you are going to have to budget for a better grinder first


Jake
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I may not agree with what you say...
but if you say it with fewer words I'll try harder...

Tex

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Re: Best espresso machine for under 2000.00
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2010, 10:46:41 AM »
I am looking into getting an espresso machine and was trying to get the best I could aford at that price level. I was looking at the Andreja Premiun and the Alex Duetto II. The Alex is slightly over the budget. What is your opinion and do you have experience with these machines? Is there anything else to look at?
Steve


~~~Tiger,  You're making the classic n00b espresso mistake...thinking the pathway to espresso nirvana is gained through buying a glamorous espresso machine

I read further where you said you have a Ranchillio Rocky grinder, you thinking that will pair well with your new espresso machine

The $2K espresso machines are great but not with a sub standard espresso grinder, so if $2K is your espresso budget, you need to re-think your espresso machine choice because you are going to have to budget for a better grinder first


Jake
Reddick Fla.
I may not agree with what you say...
but if you say it with fewer words I'll try harder...


I want to be careful here, because I don't want anyone thinking I'm pushing any of the machines I'm selling.  ???

Any espresso machine that is tunable for group temperature and pressure can make great espresso.

As Jake said, the quality of the espresso grinder is more important to the quality of the coffee than the espresso machine itself, and rates just behind the quality of the beans used in importance.

When I advise newbies on their initial purchases, I suggest a modded new or used Gaggia, and either a new or used 63mm burr set commercial espresso grinder. The Gaggia will take any beginner through to the point where they've maxed their barista skills, and future upgrades will be based on machine sex appeal and the need to show off. The grinder chosen should be considered the last grinder you'll ever need to buy.

Too many newbies spend $1000 - $4000 on prosumer espresso machines, expecting their new toy to produce God shots. But it's not the machine that makes great coffee; it's operator ability/knowledge, paired with good beans, a good grinder, and a properly tuned espresso machine that makes good coffee.

I contend it's easier to learn that skill set on a machine that converts as many variables to constants as possible. The less the newbie have to watch the machine, the more attention they can pay to technique.


GC7

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Re: Best espresso machine for under 2000.00
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2010, 01:35:46 PM »
I'm going to totally disagree with Tex.

If you have $2K to spend on an espresso machine then I think you should go ahead and buy the very best machine that you can within the budget you are comfortable with spending.  If you only had a few hundred to spend then by all means start out with a Gaggia or Sylvia. However, I have no doubt at all that you would be selling the Gaggia shortly after purchase and yearning for the machine you should have bought in the first place given your financial sitution. It (Sylvia or Gaggia) will be a pain to sell and ship and you will be back at square one but with freshly learned barista skills. You can learn those same barista skills on your $2K machine with Rocky grinder and move on from there without the hassle of upgrading when you realize you should have bought what you wanted from the beginning.  You will at some point want a new upgraded grinder and that's fine.

I skipped the Gaggia Sylvia step completely and I've very glad I did. I had a $2K budget for machine and grinder. Had I started with a Gaggia my total costs in the long run would have been higher and I don't think I would have learned ANYTHING that I don't currently know about espresso.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2010, 01:38:59 PM by GC7 »

Tex

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Re: Best espresso machine for under 2000.00
« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2010, 01:56:34 PM »
I'm going to totally disagree with Tex.

If you have $2K to spend on an espresso machine then I think you should go ahead and buy the very best machine that you can within the budget you are comfortable with spending.  If you only had a few hundred to spend then by all means start out with a Gaggia or Sylvia. However, I have no doubt at all that you would be selling the Gaggia shortly after purchase and yearning for the machine you should have bought in the first place given your financial sitution. It (Sylvia or Gaggia) will be a pain to sell and ship and you will be back at square one but with freshly learned barista skills. You can learn those same barista skills on your $2K machine with Rocky grinder and move on from there without the hassle of upgrading when you realize you should have bought what you wanted from the beginning.  You will at some point want a new upgraded grinder and that's fine.

I skipped the Gaggia Sylvia step completely and I've very glad I did. I had a $2K budget for machine and grinder. Had I started with a Gaggia my total costs in the long run would have been higher and I don't think I would have learned ANYTHING that I don't currently know about espresso.

Actually, there's very little you can learn with a Rocky. IMO, it's an inferior espresso grinder; burr rock, small burr set, too high grinding speed, and a ridiculous price, all conspire against it being considered acceptable.

As for the $2,000 prosumer espresso machine; as long as it's properly tuned it'll perform as well as a Gaggia or Silvia that's been modded & tuned, but no better. But what I said, I stand by - too often the newbie invests in a high-priced machine, with the expectation that it's going to make good espresso. That's a fallacy - the user makes good espresso if all other variables are managed.


Offline Warrior372

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Re: Best espresso machine for under 2000.00
« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2010, 03:15:57 PM »
+1 to what Tex said.

Having had 15 espresso machines in the past few years, both prosumer and commercial grade, I can agree that the more tunable the machine is the better your end product.New Rancilio Silvias and Gaggia Classics hold their value much better than any new prosumer espresso machine. I commonly buy prosumer Isomacs and ECMs for $500 or less, and those machines retail for $1,500 and above. Not to mention the Silvia and Gaggia will be much easier to work on in the event anything goes wrong. Having rebuilt and refurbished all levels of espresso machines, I can definitely say that the more expensive the machine the more complicated / cluttered the inside is under the cover.

If the total budget for espresso machine and grinder is $2,000, assuming both items will be purchased new, I would spend at least $500 on a grinder. You can have a Speedster or GS/3 Marzocco, but if you have a cheap grinder you will have nasty espresso. On the other hand, if you have a top notch grinder and a PID'd espresso machine, Silvia or Gaggia on up to an Alex Duetto, Duetto II, Vibiemme Super DB, etc, you will produce much better espresso. The quality of your end product is heavily dependent on the quality / consistency of your grinder.

With that said, if the total amount available to spend is $2,000 and he would like to purchase everything new, I would recommend a Mazzer Mini, Macap MC4, Cimbali JR., or Compak K3 Elite. These range from $500-$700 dollars. I currently have a Cimbali Junior and a Mazzer Major, and use to have a Mazzer Mini, so I can attest to the quality of both of the brands and the quality / consistent grind they provide. Others within this forum have had great experiences with other grinders too. If you do your homework and contact some of the grinder manufacturers directly, they often have grinders they used in demos that they will sell you for a considerable discount. Another great option is to look for any of the above makes and models used on craigslist, then replace the burrs and you will be golden.

This would leave $1,300-$1500 for an espresso machine. In that price range I would go with a Moded Gaggia Classic. This is because of the machines overall simplicity and the ease with which one can modify the machine. Not to mention the great resale value of a PID modified Gaggia Classic if you ever do feel like upgrading.

If you can stretch your budget to $2,500-$2,700, and really need to have counter candy, get an espresso machine with both a rotary pump and a PID, as well as one of the above mentioned grinders. After opurchasing the grinder, that would leave you with an Alex Duetto II ($2,299), Expobar Brewtus III-R ($1,999) and Vibiemme DB ($2,299 available on some sites w/ a rotary pump).

I have had some very expensive and very large espresso machines, and when push comes to shove my personal favorite, for my palate, was my Elektra MCaL. I would recommend a lever espresso machine to anyone who really wants to dive into the experience. They can produce a far superior end product, IMHO, but do have a much steeper learning curve.

You do not need a prosumer or commercial espresso machine to get great espresso. In my experience they just take up more counter space, break more often and cost more money to fix. This is coming from someone who has been restoring and refurbishing espresso machines for 5 years, so I do take pristine care of my machines.

In response to the upgraditis comment, the only way to avoid upgraditis is to just buy a Speedster, La Marzocco GS/3 or La Marzocco Linea straight away. Then you just know you have the best, so you really can not lust for anything.

Just my 2 cents.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2010, 03:36:22 PM by Warrior372 »

GC7

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Re: Best espresso machine for under 2000.00
« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2010, 03:19:48 PM »
Tex

I agree with you about the grinder but that is not the topic at hand here. I don't agree with you about believing that a Gaggia tuned any which way you want will produce CONSISTENTLY as good an espresso as a prosumer machine given the same acceptable barista skills. It certainly won't satisfy someone wanting milk based drinks or making several drinks in a short time. It's a falacy to believe otherwise in my opinion.  I stand by my statement that MOST EVERY consumer who had a higher budget to spend initially will want to upgrade shortly if they buy that Gaggia class machine first.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2010, 03:32:11 PM by GC7 »

Offline Tigeranteater

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Re: Best espresso machine for under 2000.00
« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2010, 04:16:08 PM »
I have (wanted) to spend about 2k on an espresso machine. This does not include grinder. I was going to get a Mazzer. 

Jeffo

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Re: Best espresso machine for under 2000.00
« Reply #29 on: June 05, 2010, 04:25:18 PM »
Too many newbies spend $1000 - $4000 on prosumer espresso machines, expecting their new toy to produce God shots. But it's not the machine that makes great coffee; it's operator ability/knowledge, paired with good beans, a good grinder, and a properly tuned espresso machine that makes good coffee.

Same with a camera and many other things.

On the other hand, If someone knew they were going to be very serious long term about espresso, why waste the time and money on a lower cost machine that's just frustrating for someone who has high standards and really takes the time to learn?

In Peter's case, I think its good he got a machine that won't be frustrating.