Best espresso machine for under 2000.00

[Warrior372]

What I want is something NEAR what I had in Florence. I will spend the time to learn how to do it but first need the equipment and if I can do it for 2 or 3k instead of 6...well I am a businessman.    

While if what you had in Italy is what you are after, you might want to look into a commercial lever espresso machine. I read an article several months ago that stated 90% of the espresso machines used in shops within Turin and Naples are still lever espresso machines. . . . Just something to think about. Kees Van der Westen actually has the same blurb on the Idrocompresso lever portion of his sight. Man is that an amazing looking lever!

[John F]

No, but I'd probably question the expertise of your tasters!

So would I....I mentioned that.

I'd need to be sure they know what they were tasting.

[Tex]

No, but I'd probably question the expertise of your tasters!

So would I....I mentioned that.

I'd need to be sure they know what they were tasting.

All things being equal, the grinder doesn't impact the flavor of the coffee so much as it affects how one builds the shot, which does impact shot quality. The better grinders will produce fewer coffee fines; the grounds will be closer to being the same size when ground with a good grinder. The Rocky produces more fines than any of the 63mm burr set machines I tested.

The fines have a tendency to settle to the bottom of the filter, necessitating a lighter tamp to keep from over-compressing the puck; resulting in under-extracted coffee. The closer one can get to grounds of the same size the more positive impact the tamp will have on making good coffee.

[John F]

All things being equal, the grinder doesn't impact the flavor of the coffee so much as it affects how one builds the shot, which does impact shot quality. The better grinders will produce fewer coffee fines; the grounds will be closer to being the same size when ground with a good grinder. The Rocky produces more fines than any of the 63mm burr set machines I tested.

Alright, and I agree with the above but it is not saying that a Rocky "does not meet the minimum requirements" to pull a good shot.

I'd easily be able to pull the $1,000 bet because I know for sure I can pull a good shot with a Rocky so therefore it must meet the minimum requirements.

That's all I was trying to say.



 

[Tex]

All things being equal, the grinder doesn't impact the flavor of the coffee so much as it affects how one builds the shot, which does impact shot quality. The better grinders will produce fewer coffee fines; the grounds will be closer to being the same size when ground with a good grinder. The Rocky produces more fines than any of the 63mm burr set machines I tested.

Alright, and I agree with the above but it is not saying that a Rocky "does not meet the minimum requirements" to pull a good shot.

I'd easily be able to pull the $1,000 bet because I know for sure I can pull a good shot with a Rocky so therefore it must meet the minimum requirements.

That's all I was trying to say.

Whenever I make a statement of fact, that statement applies only to my perception of the truth. So when I said, "I used to consider the Rancilio Rocky & Gaggia MDF as minimally acceptable espresso grinders, but no more. Their build quality hasn't changed, but my appreciation of espresso has, thus my change of opinion.", I'm only saying neither grinder meets MY definition of a minimally acceptable espresso grinder.

[John F]

I'm only saying neither grinder meets MY definition of a minimally acceptable espresso grinder.

Alright...that is fair enough.

There could be plenty of criteria you are using to determine what is acceptable to you.

I'm good with that. But I thought I was reading the equivalent of "you can't pull good shots with a Rocky grinder because it does not meet the minimum requirements to do it". That is what I was objecting to.

[Tex]

I'm only saying neither grinder meets MY definition of a minimally acceptable espresso grinder.

Alright...that is fair enough.

There could be plenty of criteria you are using to determine what is acceptable to you.

I'm good with that. But I thought I was reading the equivalent of "you can't pull good shots with a Rocky grinder because it does not meet the minimum requirements to do it". That is what I was objecting to.

I had a prof at A&M who made his students append everything they said with, "...by my standards" or "...by my beliefs". He wouldn't tolerate anyone speaking who wasn't willing to put their butts in the line of fire. It sorta stuck with me.

[staylor]

It's all been said. First, get a good grinder and budget approx $500-700 for that. I use a Macap and I'm happy with it, there's probably better out there but I'm happy with what I have... for now. ;-)

Next, if the budget for the machine is under $2,000 that leaves a lot of choices and as has been discussed in other threads, particularly Peter's thread, at approx 2K you can't really go too wrong on the available prosumer machines. It was pointed out that they can break down, so can cars, and space shuttles and pens run out of ink... all of those things can be remedied. If you have a lot of space on your kitchen counter and you don't mind a lot of heat then a commercial machine might be a good idea. At a certain level, approx $1600-2000 you are buying a machine with good ability to remain constant on first shot, good repeatability in rapid back to back shots and good milk ability.

Buy the best grinder you can afford, then buy the best espresso machine you can afford. Reduce any doubts in your mind due to equipment limitiations because you will question whether the results are because of you or your equipment- purchase high quality if you can afford it.

I fundamentally disagree with the comments about prosumer machines taking up a lot of space, as compared to what. Is there a machine out there the size of a matchbook? My prosumer machine doesn't take up a lot of space. As for this comment "The Gaggia will take any beginner through to the point where they've maxed their barista skills, and future upgrades will be based on machine sex appeal and the need to show off." That has to be one of the silliest things I have ready in several weeks.

[Warrior372]

There is a used Faema Compact commercial espresso machine on CL Chattanooga, TN and they are only asking $399 obo for it! This is a great price for a Commercial Single group machine. It might be worth checking out. You could throw a PID on it and get out at around $600. The you can purchase a Commercial Conical Burr Grinder with the rest of your money   .<I do not know anything about this specific machine or it's owner>

[mp]

I would love to see someone pull shots with a PID'd Gaggia or Sylvia against a good prosumer machine and compare the shots side by side.  In the name of science this would resolve all claims and separate opinion from fact.  Of course we would need to have a bunch of objective judges weighing in on the results.

Then we can draw some scientific and objective conclusions ... based only on taste and not ego or sex appeal.

Would that sound reasonable.

We could call it "The mother of All GCBC Espresso Throw Downs".

 

[peter]

I would love to see someone pull shots with a PID'd Gaggia or Sylvia against a good prosumer machine and compare the shots side by side.  In the name of science this would resolve all claims and separate opinion from fact.  Of course we would need to have a bunch of objective judges weighing in on the results.

Then we can draw some scientific and objective conclusions ... based only on taste and not ego or sex appeal.

Would that sound reasonable.

We could call it "The mother of All GCBC Espresso Throw Downs".

 

B|Java has suggested something like that for later in the Fall, after his Sylvia comes back from Milo's pimping-majik.  It would be my Vivaldi, his Sylvia, and one other machine, with maybe six Cabal members, limited only because my machine can't travel and my kitchen can't hold more than about six.  I'd like to have Warrior372 come up again to help with the day.

The only reason I balked when he brought it up was this; if all we had was a gaggle of rookies pulling the shots, the machines would not be the only variable and the results would be inconclusive.  Having someone of Shaun's abilities here would be good.  And as we've been reading in the other thread about PF sizes, it points out just one thing that can lead to less than stellar shots.  If each of the owners of the respective machines was thoroughly versed in his machine, and could adjust my Macap to grind precisely for their machine, yada, yada, yada...  you get my drift.

As I type another thought comes to mind; regardless of knowing which machine if any can produce a great shot, it wouldn't tell necessarily tell us what percentage of shots from that machine would be great.  Also because everybody uses their machine for different purposes the findings may not be of much use anyway.

[Tex]

There is a used Faema Compact commercial espresso machine on CL Chattanooga, TN and they are only asking $399 obo for it! This is a great price for a Commercial Single group machine. It might be worth checking out. You could throw a PID on it and get out at around $600. The you can purchase a Commercial Conical Burr Grinder with the rest of your money   .<I do not know anything about this specific machine or it's owner>

I'll go one step further than Warrior. Over on the BUG group we recommend the complete tear down and rebuild of used machines. For Bunn ES-1A owners this is made easier because we have lots of experience and parts diagrams to help. This does two invaluable things; 1) It restores the machine to like-new condition, and 2) You'll know everything about the machine when you finish.

A like-new machine can usually be had for the cost of a cup or two of citric acid, a handful of 0-rings and gaskets, the odd part here & there, plus a bit of effort from the owner. For Bunn ES-1A owners, the cost of completely rebuilding a machine is ~$150 or less, and if the pump needs rebuilding add another $50. When you figure that a brand new 1-group HX machine sells for $3,000 and up, the total cost of buying and rebuilding a commercial machine is minuscule.

The knowledge you gain from rebuilding your own machine is invaluable. You'll be able to tune the machine to a degree that machine techs wouldn't have time for. When something goes wrong with your machine you'll be able to fix it in less time than it takes to call out a tech. And it only seems logical that one can pull better shots from a machine one is intimately familiar with.

[staylor]

And it only seems logical that one can pull better shots from a machine one is intimately familiar with.

It might seem logical to you.

Best way I can explain the poor logic of that is by using this example... Formula 1 race car driver are some of the best drivers in the world and they don't tear the engines down, don't tear the suspension down, they aren't mechanics - they simply drive cars really fast and really well. F16 pilots, they don't take apart landing mechanisms, they don't build the jet up from scratch. It's not necessary to tear things down and start from scratch to become really good at what you do, look at Space Shuttle commanders, Aircraft Carrier commanders, etc.

You don't need to own a screwdriver to pull good espresso, what you helps is the stuff talked about all the time in this forum - a good grinder, a good machine, good beans and a metric ton of practice and some mentoring.

[Tex]

And it only seems logical that one can pull better shots from a machine one is intimately familiar with.

It might seem logical to you.

Best way I can explain the poor logic of that is by using this example... Formula 1 race car driver are some of the best drivers in the world and they don't tear the engines down, don't tear the suspension down, they aren't mechanics - they simply drive cars really fast and really well. F16 pilots, they don't take apart landing mechanisms, they don't build the jet up from scratch. It's not necessary to tear things down and start from scratch to become really good at what you do, look at Space Shuttle commanders, Aircraft Carrier commanders, etc.

You don't need to own a screwdriver to pull good espresso, what you helps is the stuff talked about all the time in this forum - a good grinder, a good machine, good beans and a metric ton of practice and some mentoring.

I can't agree with your analogies, simply because they are silly talk. Ever hear of AJ Foyt or Chuck Yeager? They were great partly because they knew the insides & outsides of their machines so well. I'm not saying you HAVE to be a wrench head to make good espresso, just that knowing how to adjust the tuning on one's machine is a distinct advantage.

You make it sound as though the barista should be totally unconcerned about group temps and pressure. That one-size-fits-all mentality is what made Starbucks so great and is also what made them the butt of all barista jokes  :icon_puke_l:

[staylor]

You make it sound as though the barista should be totally unconcerned about group temps and pressure. That one-size-fits-all mentality is what made Starbucks so great and is also what made them the butt of all barista jokes  :icon_puke_l:

No I don't make it sound as though the barista should be totally unconcerned about group temps and pressure, but that was a good attempt by you to make it appear that I'm unconcerned about group temps and pressure. Take some time to read over my input to this thread and highlight where I said what you are stating.

I understand the importance of temps and pressure, that's why I own a machine that is recognized as being consistently consistent in its group temps and pressure over multiple rapid back to back shots.