Green Coffee Buying Club
Coffee Discussion boards => Hardware & Equipment => Topic started by: Kimbalabala on May 27, 2019, 10:14:00 AM
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We just got back from Europe and I'm really hankering for a good espresso or cappuchino and all I've got is a DeLonghi grinder and a French Press (oh, and an AeroPress) and some medium/dark roasted beans (I can roast for darker beans though!). So I have some questions for you gurus.
First, how much should I expect to spend on an espresso machine - or more to the point, can I get a good one for less than $500? Is there one you recommend?
Second, will I be able to get a good espresso grind with my DeLonghi burr grinder? I just did the finest grind it offers and it still looks a bit coarse to me. Maybe my eye isn't the best way to measure though? Will I need to upgrade my grinder?
I tried to make an espresso using a fine grind and my AeroPress - doesn't even come close. It's just coffee.
Of course, it's also nice to just walk up and say 'espresso por favor' and not have to make it or clean up!
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My first thought is to just give it some time and wait for that hankering to go away.
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500 is about the starting point for an acceptable machine. You might be able to find one on e bay or something that needs a bit of TLC and cleaning for a bit cheaper but that'd be a start.
The grinder is a must, get a good one. Not familiar with yours but if it's grainy feeling, it's prpbably too coarse. Try running it through a few times (kidding!!!) What pater said, might want to wait for the urge to pass. If you want a real espresso, doing it the cheap way generally don't work out well.
Aaron
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Well gosh ... I wasn't expecting to be advised to let the hankering go away ... but that does give me more money to spend on other things ... and I DO like my coffee. Maybe I'll spend some of the savings on going to a nice coffee shop occasionally for an espresso. It's just that the flavors that were brought out were so NICE. Sigh ...
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$500 is doable but you will have to compromise. I?d spend most of your budget on a grinder. There?s a Baratza Vario on eBay right now for $350. A Vario would last you through several upgrades on your espresso machine. Then I would keep an eye out for a working but used Gaggia. There?s an older model Gaggia Coffee on eBay right now for $94. You could definitely make good cappuccinos with this setup.
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You can get pretty decent espresso for a $500 investment.
And, you can get better shots than a run of the mill shop with a $15K machine with a $3K grinder.
Here's an interesting thread by John about his el-cheapo espresso machine.
https://www.greencoffeebuyingclub.com/index.php?topic=21535.0 (https://www.greencoffeebuyingclub.com/index.php?topic=21535.0)
Regarding the grinder: it absolutely makes a difference. Cheaper grinders are less consistent with the impact of fines vs. boulders greatly magnified in the small cup. The Vario and others can often be picked up from the Baratza website as discounted refurbs.
The grinder will last for 15 years or longer and if you don't like it resale is easy. Same with the machine.
I say don't listen to Aaron and go for it!
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My husband is retired and also interested in the espresso machine, so he's been out on amazon looking around. He found two machines he thinks look good.
Gaggia Anima Coffee and Espresso Machine for $599
Breville the Barista Express Espresso Machine, BES870XL for $545
Thoughts on either? They both have an integrated burr grinder.
I guess I'll have to read posts about roasting for espresso though. I read one of the reviews for the Gaggia and it said they recommend using beans that have no oil - and all of my beans have oils. Is there a trick to that?
Deeper down the rabbit hole ...
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Beans that have no oil. That's like telling you to ask a person for information that has no opinions....
Oil is more of a product of roasting level IMO. That almost sounds like some sorry Chinese Ingrish translation that of course failed.
Even if it has oil so what, clean your grinder frequently and it's not a problem.
As for the actual machines, I can't really comment on them, I am not enough of an espresso guru to be giving solid advice on an espresso grinder. Id say roast like you always roast, that you like, and use that for your espresso. It's about taste, not so much roast level. Just because the rest of the SB world loves burnt glop does not make it the 'correct' way to do it.
Aaron
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My husband is retired and also interested in the espresso machine, so he's been out on amazon looking around. He found two machines he thinks look good.
Gaggia Anima Coffee and Espresso Machine for $599
Breville the Barista Express Espresso Machine, BES870XL for $545
Thoughts on either? They both have an integrated burr grinder.
I guess I'll have to read posts about roasting for espresso though. I read one of the reviews for the Gaggia and it said they recommend using beans that have no oil - and all of my beans have oils. Is there a trick to that?
Deeper down the rabbit hole ...
I don't know about either of those machines. I know a little about espresso tho.
I would start with the beans you're currently roasting and see if you like it in the small cup. Then roast up lighter and darker batches to see if you like either of those better. Roast level has a huge impact on flavor which is magnified when made as espresso.
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A few thoughts Kimbalala... you can trust the reviews on Amazon, but only so far, as plenty of those don't understand espresso and what they're happy with might not be what you're aiming for. Read some espresso forums too.
Do your beans have oil on them when they come out of the roaster, or does it take some time for the oil to migrate to the surface of the bean and if so, how long does it take?
I'd shy away from integrated grinders; if that part goes south it ruins the whole machine, it means the manufacturer spent money on that part of the machine which means they skimped somewhere else, and an integrated grinder is always a compromise in terms of its grinding.
Tell your hubby it's going to cost him $1k for the machine and $1k for the grinder. If he says OK then you'll have something worth doing. Years back I sunk lots of money into espresso, lots, and while it does everything I want it to do and does it well, looking back I wish I would've avoided the espresso rabbit hole.
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1k is a bit high for a grinder id think. You can find used super jolly's and others like astra's that are still in good shape and not nearly that much. As for the espresso machine, those prices are all over the place. i think I paid 500 ish for my silvia which makes decent espresso, but is considered an entry level machine really, so yah that one can get costly if you truly want a good machine and not a steam toy.
Aaron
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The oil on my beans migrates to the surface after a few days - it's not there right after roasting.
I wish we had a decent coffee shop nearby. It makes a lot more sense to go somewhere for a cup of espresso unless we really want to have it every day. But it was SO nice to get it every day ... they even had great espresso and cappuccino at gas stations! There was one cup of espresso I had that had such a nice fruity taste to it, and a wonderful crema on top. I was drinking it with no sugar or milk and just loving every sip. Sigh.
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How will you feel, if after a year or two and say $1000 invested, and you still can't get that lovely experience of a fruity/beautiful shot that you can drink black? Remember, you'll be grinding your own roasts, which may or may not be optimal. So on the occasion that you have the correct coffee roasted perfectly and the grinder is set for the best extraction and your tamping and shot-pulling is ideal... suppose the stars align every few months for perfection, will that be enough for you? I'm not saying the other 99% of the espresso will be undrinkable, or that all those other shots won't perform well in a milk drink. It's just a long and often frustrating road. Like many things in life, the idea of something rarely matches up with the reality of it.
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How will you feel, if after a year or two and say $1000 invested, and you still can't get that lovely experience of a fruity/beautiful shot that you can drink black? Remember, you'll be grinding your own roasts, which may or may not be optimal. So on the occasion that you have the correct coffee roasted perfectly and the grinder is set for the best extraction and your tamping and shot-pulling is ideal... suppose the stars align every few months for perfection, will that be enough for you? I'm not saying the other 99% of the espresso will be undrinkable, or that all those other shots won't perform well in a milk drink. It's just a long and often frustrating road. Like many things in life, the idea of something rarely matches up with the reality of it.
you can't buy the work for the skill... so if you are willing to put in the work I think you can get fairly consistent with good equipment. A year or two seems long to get to a point of consistency and skill with a certain level of equipment. But it definitely isn't something that wont take practice or a lot of wasted coffee/milk and instruction. So the real question is if you knew the investment was at least $500 in equipment(used) and 5 months of time and probably $1000 in wasted test materials (coffee,milk,etc.) would you still be excited to learn. If you take the cheap easy way out you will never get what you want and if you throw a lot of money into equipment you might feel ripped off at first.
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500 is about the starting point for an acceptable machine. You might be able to find one on e bay or something that needs a bit of TLC and cleaning for a bit cheaper but that'd be a start.
The grinder is a must, get a good one. Not familiar with yours but if it's grainy feeling, it's prpbably too coarse. Try running it through a few times (kidding!!!) What pater said, might want to wait for the urge to pass. If you want a real espresso, doing it the cheap way generally don't work out well.
Aaron
do you still have the Gaggia i sold you? I might be interested in a re purchase.
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I think I'll just go to BreadCo and see how their espresso is ... :-\
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I think I'll just go to BreadCo and see how their espresso is ... :-\
Lol I mean it's still worth it to know it's not for you. I have travelled through parts of Europe for a long time and I haven't had an espresso like I get at my home ever. I got something that I was glad to pay for in Italy. Most of what I got was crap not joking so of you loved most of what you get in Europe (Nespresso, lavazza, Illy) then you should beat that right out the chute.
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Joe yes I do, that one is at the Greenland plant. I have a Tex modded one here at home I use for my espresso's. As I said, it can make a good espresso, occasionally a friggin awesome one. My halo bariti was god given in that machine, but,... it is an entry level machine really.
What was said before stands hard, and I have said this time and time again about roasting. YOU need to learn YOUR MACHINE. THAT is the key to making good coffee, roasting good coffee, pulling good coffee, etc etc. Buying a ferrari does not make you a race car driver, practice does. Getting an awesome espresso machine and a shitty grinder, well now you just done took your Ferrari and got yourself stuck in rush hour traffic, you'll never have any idea how well your machine performs, you caged it.
Espresso's are wonderful if that is your thing, but the price to get into them correctly, as Joe, Peter, Brian, and others have said, it's not something you are going to do on the cheap, and be happy. I do metal detecting, well not so much anymore, but anyways, I have 2 machines, both of them cost me well over 1000 dollars each many many years ago. I found a lot of nice stuff with them, other people have seen and wanted to get into it themselves. Even after the talks and questions, they STILL ran out and got the 89 dollar Radio shack special. Then they were all pissed off when I am popping 200 year old coins at a foot or so and they are finding every pull tab and pop top on the planet. You get what you pay for.
Aaron
ps. oof I think I just carbon dated myself again, pop top, pull tab. In 20 years nobody is going to know what those were anymore :)
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Just tried a Starbucks blonde espresso. Uck. Blech. Gross. Icky. $2.10 down the drain.
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Only 2.10? that's cheap, must have been a dollar store starbucks.
Aaron
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If you're going the cappuccino route, you might even take a look at a super automatic espresso machine. Some of the higher end ones make a decent cup and require little to no skill and they will cost less than you're looking to spend on the grinder/machine combo. They aren't going to be as good as when you get everything perfect on a grinder/espresso machine combo. However, they are consistent and will be better than when you pooch everything up.... O0 ;D
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Here's my .02 since I've been using a variety of espresso machines over the years. If you want espresso or espresso-based drinks, I say go for it; I'm hooked. That's the only way I make coffee anymore. When I first started out, I was using one of those Walmart type Krups machines and a blade grinder. Yuk, but I didn't know any better. Then I started to do a little research on entry-level setups and higher and found a good used machine on Ebay that served me well for several more years and paired it with a good but reasonably priced burr grinder. I still have that machine and grinder and take it with us on vacation or when we go away for several days and want to enjoy my good roasted coffee. Several years ago, I moved on up to a plumbed in heat exchanger machine that I bought on CL at a real good price and bought a nice grinder at a coffee shop closeout sale. I paid less than $750 for both items and they are essentially commercial grade and look and perform really good. They did need a little refurb work but now perform flawlessly and reliably day after day. They make my previous machine look and feel like a toy. Take your time, do your research,and be patient and you can find some good deals out there. But also be careful because used stuff can come with issues. Me, I'd rather take a risk and buy a good used machine at a deep discount and do a little work on it if needed than pay the premium price for new. My machines are in my profile below.
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We just got back from Europe and I'm really hankering for a good espresso or cappuchino and all I've got is a DeLonghi grinder and a French Press (oh, and an AeroPress) and some medium/dark roasted beans (I can roast for darker beans though!). So I have some questions for you gurus.
First, how much should I expect to spend on an espresso machine - or more to the point, can I get a good one for less than $500? Is there one you recommend?
Second, will I be able to get a good espresso grind with my DeLonghi burr grinder? I just did the finest grind it offers and it still looks a bit coarse to me. Maybe my eye isn't the best way to measure though? Will I need to upgrade my grinder?
I tried to make an espresso using a fine grind and my AeroPress - doesn't even come close. It's just coffee.
Of course, it's also nice to just walk up and say 'espresso por favor' and not have to make it or clean up!
Just finished reading through this thread again and wanted to add a few more tidbits to consider. Your DeLonghi burr grinder may be fully capable of delivering an acceptable grind for an espresso machine. My first burr grinder was a Bodum Bistro conical burr grinder that I bought online for about $100 and it still grinds a consistent grind for espresso. It was perfect for entry level espresso. I'd find the espresso machine you like and see if your grinder can give it what it needs. My first real espresso machine was over $1000 new and I bought it on Ebay for about $350 shipped IIRC. It was a double boiler Kitchen Aid Proline machine that got me hooked and provided great espresso-based coffee for several years. It produced decent shots with good crema. All that to say if you want to get into an espresso machine and grinder for less that $500, it can be done. Shop around and read reviews. And as mentioned earlier, stay away from those all in one superautomatics. No fun in just pushing a button and waiting for whatever might come out of the other end.