Author Topic: How To PID An Espresso Machine  (Read 4074 times)

Offline Warrior372

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How To PID An Espresso Machine
« on: November 25, 2009, 08:36:30 AM »
Is there a thread in here that goes over how to PID a machine? Also, what is the best PID for the money?

Tex

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How To PID An Espresso Machine
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2009, 08:48:59 AM »
Is there a thread in here that goes over how to PID a machine? Also, what is the best PID for the money?


What kind of machine? Fish tanks and flush toilets I don't do - everything else I can usually handle.  ;)

Here's a drawing with the basics for PIDing a HX machine.

Offline Warrior372

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How To PID An Espresso Machine
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2009, 09:41:43 AM »
Hmm. . . still looks confusing :) . I know the inside of espresso machines pretty well. I rebuild old ones as a hobby, specifically levers, so I am  more familiar with simpler internals due to their lack of technology. I do have a Magister ES60, they were made by Rancilio and rebadged, it is essentially a Rancilio S27. I have fully disassembled it and rebuilt it, so I am pretty familiar with it's internal pieces. I think that it might be more fun to play with if it had a PID. Plus it is the machine I pull from most often, so it would make the most sense.

Are there written out step by step directions anywhere? The picture is great, things just make more sense to me if I can visually see a picture and read a detailed description at the same time.  Is one brand PID better for the money than another? What / where are PIDs normally used outside of modding espresso machines? I have found that things tend to be cheaper at hardware stores / specialty shops than espresso part websites! I got to know the employees at the main plumbing supply stores, metal working shops, and Grainger Supply in Boise pretty well.

Thank for the help!

Offline Warrior372

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How To PID An Espresso Machine
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2009, 10:17:16 AM »
Is Auber a good brand? They have one that displays both set temp and processing temp for $41.95.  http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=106&zenid=a354b78010e731cc31b6ef7df233a752 . They also have machines that give an SSR output. . . does that mean you could eliminate the current SSR that is in your machine?

Tex

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Re: How To PID An Espresso Machine
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2009, 11:03:53 AM »
For a HX machine the simplest PID's work well - you're not trying to micro-manage temps like you would with single boiler machines. I prefer Watlow or CAL Controls because of their more robust builds, but I only buy used controllers and the cheaper Auber models should work just as well for this application.

The PID's built-in relays are seldom rated for the high amp load a heating element requires, so I advise using a d.c. switched PID & a SSR. You'll only need OT1 to manage the temps unless you opt to use OT2 as a hi-limit switch. Putting these together is easy, so just follow your instincts; and use the auto tune function to set it up.

Wire the heating element circuit directly, as though you wanted it always on. Then cut one of the element leads and connect to the output of the SSR. The SSR's output is now the switch that turns the element on/off. The PID turns the SSR on/off by energizing the SSR's input when the thermocouple senses a lower than preset temp.

I like to mount the PID in the front panels of the machine (requires some clearance behind the panel). The PID's I favor are 1/32 DIN size-factor and require a 7/8" x 1 3/4" opening. If you don't feel like chopping into the front panel, the PID can be mounted in a separate enclosure, commonly mounted on the side of the machine.

Offline Warrior372

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Re: How To PID An Espresso Machine
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2009, 11:06:59 AM »
Very nice! Thank you for the additional info. What else will I need other than the PID controller itself? Extra wire, connectors, etc?

Will this fit the bill> http://auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=14 ? Would this one be worth the extra $6 http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=106&zenid=db25d8af8b5e5bf48d2492d2358a5036 ? I think it would be nice to know the set temp and the actual.

The area to the left of the Magister Logo on the base would probably be a great spot. It is under the drip tray, but that area is protected by a square piece of sheet metal so water could not touch the PID. It should be able to accommodate both of the above mentioned PIDs space wise as well.

« Last Edit: November 25, 2009, 11:16:41 AM by Warrior372 »

Tex

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Re: How To PID An Espresso Machine
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2009, 11:19:19 AM »
I like to replace the element circuit with new 12 ga wire. You'll also need 20 - 18 ga wire from the PID to SSR & 16 ga wire from line-in to PID, an in-line fuse holder & 1.5 ma fast blow fuse, a d.c. input/a.c. output SSR, and optionally a PID enclosure.

You'll also need a thermocouple (t/c). If possible I prefer the 1/8" s/s sheathed probes from Omega, otherwise you'll have to figure out a place to mount a washer-ended t/c.

Tex

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Re: How To PID An Espresso Machine
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2009, 11:30:43 AM »
Very nice! Thank you for the additional info. What else will I need other than the PID controller itself? Extra wire, connectors, etc?

Will this fit the bill> http://auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=14 ? Would this one be worth the extra $6 http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=106&zenid=db25d8af8b5e5bf48d2492d2358a5036 ? I think it would be nice to know the set temp and the actual.

The area to the left of the Magister Logo on the base would probably be a great spot. It is under the drip tray, but that area is protected by a square piece of sheet metal so water could not touch the PID. It should be able to accommodate both of the above mentioned PIDs space wise as well.



By using an internal probe the set point & actual temp will be the same, unless the PID isn't calibrated. So go with either PID, and you'll be OK.

You're lucky - my Nuova Simonelli had little spare room so I put the PID outside the case. The Bunn ES-1A I'm working on now will have the PID mounted on the front panel(right of the group - where the toggle switch is mounted).

Offline Warrior372

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Re: How To PID An Espresso Machine
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2009, 11:45:44 AM »
That will look nice! What do you use to cut the sheet metal? I have snips, but think they would not give me the precision need to cut on the inside of the panel.

Tex

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Re: How To PID An Espresso Machine
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2009, 11:48:30 AM »
That will look nice! What do you use to cut the sheet metal? I have snips, but think they would not give me the precision need to cut on the inside of the panel.

If you don't have access to a sheet metal nibbler, use a Dremel tool & diamond wheel.

Offline Warrior372

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Re: How To PID An Espresso Machine
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2009, 12:00:17 PM »
Thank you for all of the info!

Offline mp

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Re: How To PID An Espresso Machine
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2009, 12:02:03 PM »
Yes ... thank you Robert ... Mr. PID.

 :)
1-Cnter, 2-Bean, 3-Skin, 4-Parchmnt, 5-Pect, 6-Pu
lp, 7-Ski

Tex

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Re: How To PID An Espresso Machine
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2009, 12:06:07 PM »
Thank you for all of the info!


I'm in the car so I don't have time to give you everything I have on the subject. Believe me, some folks learn not to ask me questions - I'll flood you with info, just to show you how bright I am!


Offline grinderz

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Re: How To PID An Espresso Machine
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2009, 12:27:44 PM »
Bookmark!
var elvisLives = Math.PI > 4 ? "Yep" : "Nope";

Offline mp

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Re: How To PID An Espresso Machine
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2009, 01:54:55 PM »
Thank you for all of the info!


I'm in the car so I don't have time to give you everything I have on the subject. Believe me, some folks learn not to ask me questions - I'll flood you with info, just to show you how bright I am!




I said Mr. PID ... not Mr. Pisser!

 :laughing4:
1-Cnter, 2-Bean, 3-Skin, 4-Parchmnt, 5-Pect, 6-Pu
lp, 7-Ski