Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!

[Tex]

I neglected to include one of my favorite consumer machines: La Pavoni Europiccola/Professional. In stock form, an experienced user can pull fantastic shots. This is the consummate users machine - everything must be finessed to make it work and when you get it just so, magic happens!

I have a customer who found an Olympia Cremina for like $25 at a GoodWill store... I NEVER find deals like that. I've offered him a poo pile of cash and espresso beans for 6 months and he won't part with that darn machine.
I don't know how those two machine stack up head to head, but I've used both and the Cremina is nice in that it can actually steam milk really well. I don't recall if the La Pavoni steams as well.

The peacock is a steaming monster, especially the 16 cup Professional.

[peter]

I see some Vibiemme double boilers, and the Brewtus III have a PID.  How crucial is a PID, other than having the ability to change the brew temps?

What the pros/cons of vibe pumps or rotary pumps?

Other than the ability to change temps I don't guess it's all that critical in an E-61 level machine. You could keep an eye on temps in other ways.

I personally would not choose the more expensive rotary/plumbed in if it is an option choice like the BIII you are considering.   If it cost the exact same I would only do it with the bottle flo-pump option because of the ability to work with the water directly instead of using filtration.  

I just now saw you answered my same question in the other thread.  Thanks.

Interesting thought on plumbing in vs. sucking out of a bottle.  Plumbing a unit wouldn't present much hassle, I'd just get some John XYZ   fittings.

The Vibiemme Domo Jr. has two boilers and two PID's.  I can't imagine why you'd want to have steam PID'd.

Beside the money (and we all know when it comes to coffee toys, where there's a will there's a way) my true obstacle is the layout of my kitchen.  I have approx. 15.5" under my cabinets, and no real way to use an espresso cart.  I still have the reticence in the back of my mind that I will still drink mainly brewed coffee and the machine will gather dust, but I can convince myself that I need and espresso machine and rationalize my way into buying one.  The space in the kitchen thing will be tough to solve w/o remodeling tho'.  The reckless part of me says if I buy something, then I'll have to figure out where to put it.    Rocket Espresso makes a decent machine that would fit under my cabinets, but even then it would have to be slid forward to access the reservoir and would render the cup warming tray unusable.

[John F]

 Plumbing a unit wouldn't present much hassle, I'd just get some John XYZ   fittings.

 

It would be a snap to plumb in, that isn't the issue.

Do you need a refresher in the insanely long water faq? 

[Tex]

I see some Vibiemme double boilers, and the Brewtus III have a PID.  How crucial is a PID, other than having the ability to change the brew temps?

What the pros/cons of vibe pumps or rotary pumps?

Other than the ability to change temps I don't guess it's all that critical in an E-61 level machine. You could keep an eye on temps in other ways.

I personally would not choose the more expensive rotary/plumbed in if it is an option choice like the BIII you are considering.  If it cost the exact same I would only do it with the bottle flo-pump option because of the ability to work with the water directly instead of using filtration. 

I just now saw you answered my same question in the other thread.  Thanks.

Interesting thought on plumbing in vs. sucking out of a bottle.  Plumbing a unit wouldn't present much hassle, I'd just get some John XYZ  fittings.

The Vibiemme Domo Jr. has two boilers and two PID's.  I can't imagine why you'd want to have steam PID'd.

Beside the money (and we all know when it comes to coffee toys, where there's a will there's a way) my true obstacle is the layout of my kitchen.  I have approx. 15.5" under my cabinets, and no real way to use an espresso cart.  I still have the reticence in the back of my mind that I will still drink mainly brewed coffee and the machine will gather dust, but I can convince myself that I need and espresso machine and rationalize my way into buying one.  The space in the kitchen thing will be tough to solve w/o remodeling tho'.  The reckless part of me says if I buy something, then I'll have to figure out where to put it.     Rocket Espresso makes a decent machine that would fit under my cabinets, but even then it would have to be slid forward to access the reservoir and would render the cup warming tray unusable.

Plumbing in vs reservoir?

Once you use a plumbed in machine you'll wonder how you ever got along without it. Never having to check the reservoir or bottle for water level (running a pump dry is the kiss of death!). Then there's never having to pull the drip tray out and trying to make it to the sink without spilling.

[staylor]

I've wanted a lever machine for a while now. I wish John would hurry up and get one so I would have something to play with when I'm in Colorado in the future. ;-)

I just measured my BII for you Peter and it's just under 15 inches tall, yes that would mean you wouldn't be able to take advantage of keeping the cups warm on top of the machine... but that's no big deal. You could take them cold out of a cupboard and pull 2oz of hot water from the grouphead straight into the cup to bring the E-61 head to a nice stable temp, 2mins later pull another 2oz into the cup and it will be toasty hot ready for espresso and the E61 is ready to go - that protocol is exactly what I do - so no need to stack your cups on top of the machine.

When I'm not using the BII I slide it back under the cupboard.

[John F]

I've wanted a lever machine for a while now. I wish John would hurry up and get one so I would have something to play with when I'm in Colorado in the future. ;-)

I spent some time looking at them yesterday and am very nervous about what decision I'm going to make.

If I do it my espresso course will be set and altered for a few years at least and I'm just not sure....

I've been putting off a new machine for a very long time now and part of me really wants to get a nice E-61 workhorse because I've never had a fine machine and another part of me wants to plunge off into previously uncharted waters and spend some time in lever land.

I sort of have to make this purchase count because it's going to generate and equal expenditure on the other end of the house and a second machine is going to be unlikely very soon....I gotta make the right move here.  

[peter]

First off, how would a lever machine differ from your BII, since that is activated by a lever?

Your machine must have the legs off.  ?   The specs online for the BIII say 16.5" H.

The Alex Duetto II by Izzo at Chris' has me thinking.  Once you get close to 2G's, who really cares any more?  Now, if I move the microwave over there, and then rearrange this over here...

[Tex]

peter, what are your requirements? SBDU, HX, DB, lever? Do you want an E61 group w/lever. or is a solenoid model OK. Does it have to be a group with thermal siphoning to keep it hot.

Do you want a machine that can make kick ass espresso while looking like a million dollars? Or would a solid used commercial espresso fit the bill?

Some of us like buying old machines and then restoring them to better than new condition. We save a lot over buying new machines, and when we're finished we know more about our machines than even the technicians do.

[staylor]

I've wanted a lever machine for a while now. I wish John would hurry up and get one so I would have something to play with when I'm in Colorado in the future. ;-)

I spent some time looking at them yesterday and am very nervous about what decision I'm going to make.

If I do it my espresso course will be set and altered for a few years at least and I'm just not sure....

I've been putting off a new machine for a very long time now and part of me really wants to get a nice E-61 workhorse because I've never had a fine machine and another part of me wants to plunge off into previously uncharted waters and spend some time in lever land.

I sort of have to make this purchase count because it's going to generate and equal expenditure on the other end of the house and a second machine is going to be unlikely very soon....I gotta make the right move here.  

Exactly.

[staylor]

First off, how would a lever machine differ from your BII, since that is activated by a lever?

Your machine must have the legs off.  ?   The specs online for the BIII say 16.5" H.

The Alex Duetto II by Izzo at Chris' has me thinking.  Once you get close to 2G's, who really cares any more?  Now, if I move the microwave over there, and then rearrange this over here...

I've been thinking about a lever for a while because I like the idea behind the challenge of pulling great espresso on one. I don't think it would be as easy as pulling shots on the BII and it's that part which has me interested. There's also the likelihood that it pulls espresso shots differently and I'm interested in exploring the same bean under two machines, seeing what the bean has to offer via two different devices. I've heard a lot of Brewtus owners say the really good shots coming off their machine become so commonplace that it's almost ho-hum good. I think the challenges of a lever, in so much that it might not be as predictable as my BII, would keep me on my toes. I like a good challenge.

You are right, I took the legs off and then stuck some of those super slippy plastic discs underneath so the machine can slide back and forth under the cabinetry reeeeeeaaaalllly easily. Works like a charm.

I agree, at a certain price point I think you can do quite well for yourself in the espresso universe and it will meet your performance needs for a long, long time. Now, about that GB-5... ;-)

[shakin_jake]

[/quote]
 If it cost the exact same I would only do it with the bottle flo-pump option because of the ability to work with the water directly instead of using filtration.  
[/quote]


~~~that's my plan whenever I get around to putting the Rimini back together...I already have the flo jet and will using the 15 gal/day RO that feeds into a canister with calcium/calcite cartridge..like I'm using now for my pour over hx espresso machine...I really like the taste of this water (from my 200' deep well) and at 50 PPM hardness


Jake
Reddick Fla.
If he's got golf clubs in his truck or a camper in his driveway, I don't hire him.
--Lou Holtz, football coach

[Tex]

Here's a topic for consideration: If all of the best commercial espresso makers have settled on 58mm as the ideal portafilter size, why are some prosumer machines produced with 53mm portafilters? And why are most consumer lever machines made with 49mm & 51mm portafilters? Is there a reason for 58mm portafilters, or is this another instance of industrial inertia?

Here's what I've found. If you dial in an espresso grinder for a commercial machine tuned to exactly 9 bar group pressure, you'll have to redial it in for a 53mm machine tuned to 9 bar. The same size coffee grounds that work so well for any of my three 58mm equipped machines won't work on a friends VII 53mm portafilter equipped machine. There's something about the puck mass in a smaller/deeper portafilter that doesn't directly translate to a larger portafilter.

This confuses me; why exactly 14 grams of coffee, ground to the same particle size, takes differing times to produce the same volume of coffee, depending on portafilter diameter. And if the extraction period changes (and it does), how does that affect the taste of the coffee (again it does)? Using exactly the same grind settings, and the same amount of coffee (14 grams), and the same technique (WDT & light tamp), the coffee from the 53mm portafilter tasted over extracted and harsh. We had to adjust and readjust the grinder to hit a sweet spot that produced good coffee with the VII. Whereas with my HX machine, a two or three click change in grind settings is insignificant, for the VII there was only a two click difference between good and bad coffee.

Why should the portafilter diameter affect the shot quality so much?

[John F]

Why should the portafilter diameter affect the shot quality so much?

I'm no physicist but how else could it be?

If you exaggerate it and spread the 14G to a thin layer you can imagine that extraction has to taste different from one where the 14G is stacked up in a long skinny column no?

   

[Tex]

Why should the portafilter diameter affect the shot quality so much?

I'm no physicist but how else could it be?

If you exaggerate it and spread the 14G to a thin layer you can imagine that extraction has to taste different from one where the 14G is stacked up in a long skinny column no?
 

No doubt John, you're correct; as playing with a VII next to my 58mm machines proved to my satisfaction. But that begs the question, what is the ideal portafilter size? Remember, we're dealing with machines that are tuned to exactly the same 9 bar group pressure (Even to using the same gauge to dial them all in).

I'm just curious why LM, Synesso, Rancilio, Gaggia, Nuova Simonelli, et al, have all opted for the 58mm portafilter size? Is there a reason or are they all victims of group think?

[John F]

I'm just curious why LM, Synesso, Rancilio, Gaggia, Nuova Simonelli, et al, have all opted for the 58mm portafilter size? Is there a reason or are they all victims of group think?

I don't really know...but I think it's a good size.