Author Topic: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!  (Read 68100 times)

Offline Warrior372

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #30 on: June 05, 2010, 10:37:33 PM »
Why should the portafilter diameter affect the shot quality so much?

I'm no physicist but how else could it be?

If you exaggerate it and spread the 14G to a thin layer you can imagine that extraction has to taste different from one where the 14G is stacked up in a long skinny column no?

  

I have the answer you have all been looking for. After owning a ton of machines, many levers both home and commercial, prosumer semi-autos and commercial semi autos, I have done a lot of research into different companies takes on PF size.

Both a 58mm double commercial PF basket and an Elektra MCaL or Olympia Cremina (spring loaded vs manual lever. . . that calls for a completely different thread of it's own) 49mm double PF hold right around 18g of coffee, but there is one huge difference. . . a 58mm commercial machine will pull a 1.5oz shot while my Elektra would only pull a mere .75-1oz shot with a pull and a half of the lever (aka fellini maneuver). So why the difference in diameter? The narrower baskets give the resultant shot so many more layers of flavor! It is night and day with the exact same coffee. I happen to have had an Isomac Tea II at the same time as the Elektra and they both made great shots, the Elektra's just had a lot more character (The same can be said for the Cremina's shots). This was consistent with almost any coffee I put through both machines.

The Elektra did have a few downfalls of it's own and they are as follows: they can only manage about 3 double shots in a row and they are so hot you need to shut them off, they can only hold enough water for about 5 doubles total with flushing in between, small shot volume, and although their finish is so beautiful (I had a brass and copper one) they were impossible to keep sparkly clean and regardless of what rag you used to clean it  you would get micro-scratches!

For the above reasons I got into commercial lever espresso machines. They have huge boilers that can accommodate even the largest group, you can plumb them in or run them from a 5 gallon bottle, they have steam for days, you can leave it on all day without a problem, and if you get a classic one they look sooooo cool! One problem with the majority of commercial lever machines is that the portafilter size bounces back up 58mm. That is why so many lever fanatics drool at the site of new and old La San Marco Lever espresso machines. To this day they maintain the original 55mm portafilter on their commercial levers. This makes them the best of both worlds. You have the convenience of a commercial lever machine with the beautiful layered flavor profile of a smaller home model.

Another thing that really sets levers apart, both home and commercial models, is the overall simplicity and lack of electronic parts. The only electronic parts they have are pressurestats and heating elements (and a brain and PID if you so choose). To me fewer electronic parts means fewer problems, and this has been my exact experience. I have never had anything break on any of the levers I have owned whether I purchased them new or purchased them used and rebuilt / restored them. Obviously you will have to descale them and replace their o-rings from time to time, but that goes for any espresso machine.

No matter how long it takes me I will convert some of you :) ! It sounds like a few of you may be converting yourselves. . . . Lever machines definitely have a steep learning curve. You will not set one up and pull an amazing shot straight away, but that makes pulling a great shot so much more exciting. Once you get use to them and their borderline finicky tendencies you are rewarded with outstanding espresso.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 08:28:34 PM by Warrior372 »

Offline John F

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #31 on: June 05, 2010, 10:52:40 PM »
No matter how long it take I will convert some of you :)

I have my eye on the Ponte V...

What do you think of that machine?

I'm thinking of going with the Export because I don't think I'll need the second group.

I've been wanting a lever for a while and will be getting one pretty soon. A little looking over at HB has led me to think this might be the machine for me.

Edit - I think I have some notes from you on my last pass towards lever-ville but I moved and it got put on the back burner... It's coming back to the front burner. I'll go look for those notes..
« Last Edit: June 05, 2010, 11:08:43 PM by John F »
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Offline Warrior372

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #32 on: June 05, 2010, 11:13:14 PM »
No matter how long it take I will convert some of you :)


I have my eye on the Ponte V...

What do you think of that machine?

I'm thinking of going with the Export because I don't think I'll need the second group.

I've been wanting a lever for a while and will be getting one pretty soon. A little looking over at HB has led me to think this might be the machine for me.


I think you would love it! I just noticed that they are actually on sale at 1st-line.com right now for $695 (they could be cheaper elsewhere that is just one of the first links that shot up when I searched). Ponte Vecchio took over a company named SAMA a few years ago.  After taking over they decided to keep making the Export. If you want a lot of information on it do a search on the Sama Export. OrphanEspresso has machine tours for the SAMA. You will read great things about them, people love them. A few of the people over at Home-Barista actually bring them and a hand grinder on business trips to setup in their hotel rooms, because they are pretty compact as far as espresso machines go.

Some of the above info about my Elektra will apply to the Ponte Vecchio Export. You will not be able to pull shots for a room full of people. So if ability to make shot after shot is really important this may not be the machine for you. The PF is 45mm, which is small by even home lever standards. Almost all spring lever machines have a spring tension that will produce 9 bars of pressure through the espresso puck. With that being said, based on the PF size it should produce shots very comparable to the Elektra MCaL, both in quality and small volume.

Being a modern version of the exact same machine, the Ponte Vecchio should look like a mirror image of the SAMA internally. Here is the OrphanEspresso video on the SAMA:
Sama Export Espresso Machine Tour
. The mix of the lever espresso machines simplicity and ability to make such great shots amazes me!

Here is another video of someone pulling a shot with one. Not the best example of how to pull a great shot on a lever, but it gives you a general idea of what is looks like in action. One thing you will notice is you start and end the pre-infusion phase, which is another beautiful feature of lever machines. I would advise against the multiple pumps at the end of the pre-infusion phase though. . . .
Ponte Vecchio Export Test Shot
« Last Edit: June 05, 2010, 11:17:07 PM by Warrior372 »

BoldJava

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2010, 03:43:19 AM »
These espresso machine threads have been great.  While I am not in the market, having a greater awareness and knowledge base of the espresso end of this habit is critical is well.  You gents know you stuff.  Thanks.

B|Java

Offline John F

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2010, 06:56:27 AM »
One thing you will notice is you start and end the pre-infusion phase, which is another beautiful feature of lever machines. I would advise against the multiple pumps at the end of the pre-infusion phase though. . . . t[/url]

Great!

Tell me what is happening in this vid.

At approx 28 seconds he pulls the lever down and holds it. Does this start the preinfusion and if you simply hold the lever down here you can extend pre time?

Then at approx 31 seconds he looks to do 2-3 pumps...what is that about?

My imagination is that I'd pull the lever down..hold for preinfusion, let it ride half way up and GENTLY pull back down and let go at that point allowing the spring to do it's thing.

But I've never touched a lever machine and this is all total WAG'ing at this point.

So, what is he doing with those multiple pulls around 31 seconds and how far off am I from assuming what the process should be like?
« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 07:03:26 AM by John F »
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Offline Warrior372

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2010, 08:26:18 AM »
One thing you will notice is you start and end the pre-infusion phase, which is another beautiful feature of lever machines. I would advise against the multiple pumps at the end of the pre-infusion phase though. . . . t[/url]

Great!

Tell me what is happening in this vid.

At approx 28 seconds he pulls the lever down and holds it. Does this start the preinfusion and if you simply hold the lever down here you can extend pre time?

Then at approx 31 seconds he looks to do 2-3 pumps...what is that about?

My imagination is that I'd pull the lever down..hold for preinfusion, let it ride half way up and GENTLY pull back down and let go at that point allowing the spring to do it's thing.

But I've never touched a lever machine and this is all total WAG'ing at this point.

So, what is he doing with those multiple pulls around 31 seconds and how far off am I from assuming what the process should be like?

Bingo John! Your imaginative technique is more along the lines of the technique I used with the Elektra and Cremina. What you described is generally termed the Fellini maneuver. My typical protocol after locking in the PF full of coffee would be to pre=infuse by pulling down the lever for 10 seconds or until I see the first drip of coffee, if you want to do the Fellini maneuver you would then let the lever rise 1/2 way, pull it all the way down again slowly and smoothly and then watch and wait. The video just showed you the machine in action. . . I would personally would not use the same technique as the individual who made the video. To me it looked like he either ground too finely or tamped to hard, because there is no reason you should have to pull the lever down 3 times post pre-infusion to get the water through the puck.

A catch with levers is you cannot bail and restart midway throughout the course of your shot. The only way for a lever espresso machine to relieve pressure is to get all the water out of it's piston and through the PF. They do not have pressure release mechanisms. Another thing you should know about levers is that for this exact reason, you need to wait about 25-30 seconds between pulling shots. Otherwise you will 'portafilter sneeze' and will have coffee all over the place.


Tex

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #36 on: June 06, 2010, 08:50:03 AM »
If a 49mm filter with the same capacity as the current 58mm models produced better coffee, as Warrior says, why aren't the heavy hitters in the commercial machine market rushing to convert? The first maker to honestly say that they've converted to smaller portafilters for the sake of better coffee would have a huge advantage over the competition.

This would be so easy to demonstrate at trade shows, and the truth would be out there for all to see! I can just see it, company Zee brings out their 49mm portafilter machine and the buzz starts; "Have you been over to Zee's display yet? Their new machine uses 49mm portafilters and it makes the best coffee you've ever had!" All of a sudden the other machine makers would have power failures at their displays and couldn't demo their products. ;D

The simple answer is the 58mm must be the best size or it wouldn't be so widely used.


Offline mp

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2010, 12:19:48 PM »
If a 49mm filter with the same capacity as the current 58mm models produced better coffee, as Warrior says, why aren't the heavy hitters in the commercial machine market rushing to convert? The first maker to honestly say that they've converted to smaller portafilters for the sake of better coffee would have a huge advantage over the competition.

This would be so easy to demonstrate at trade shows, and the truth would be out there for all to see! I can just see it, company Zee brings out their 49mm portafilter machine and the buzz starts; "Have you been over to Zee's display yet? Their new machine uses 49mm portafilters and it makes the best coffee you've ever had!" All of a sudden the other machine makers would have power failures at their displays and couldn't demo their products. ;D

The simple answer is the 58mm must be the best size or it wouldn't be so widely used.

+1

It's only common sense ... bigger portafilter ... more coffee ... more flavor.

 :)
1-Cnter, 2-Bean, 3-Skin, 4-Parchmnt, 5-Pect, 6-Pu
lp, 7-Ski

Tex

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #38 on: June 06, 2010, 12:43:52 PM »
If a 49mm filter with the same capacity as the current 58mm models produced better coffee, as Warrior says, why aren't the heavy hitters in the commercial machine market rushing to convert? The first maker to honestly say that they've converted to smaller portafilters for the sake of better coffee would have a huge advantage over the competition.

This would be so easy to demonstrate at trade shows, and the truth would be out there for all to see! I can just see it, company Zee brings out their 49mm portafilter machine and the buzz starts; "Have you been over to Zee's display yet? Their new machine uses 49mm portafilters and it makes the best coffee you've ever had!" All of a sudden the other machine makers would have power failures at their displays and couldn't demo their products. ;D

The simple answer is the 58mm must be the best size or it wouldn't be so widely used.

+1

It's only common sense ... bigger portafilter ... more coffee ... more flavor.

 :)

Just goes to show, common sense isn't so common. A lot of smaller diameter portafilters use deeper filters, so they're still using 14 - 18 grams of coffee.

Offline mp

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #39 on: June 06, 2010, 12:47:03 PM »
If a 49mm filter with the same capacity as the current 58mm models produced better coffee, as Warrior says, why aren't the heavy hitters in the commercial machine market rushing to convert? The first maker to honestly say that they've converted to smaller portafilters for the sake of better coffee would have a huge advantage over the competition.

This would be so easy to demonstrate at trade shows, and the truth would be out there for all to see! I can just see it, company Zee brings out their 49mm portafilter machine and the buzz starts; "Have you been over to Zee's display yet? Their new machine uses 49mm portafilters and it makes the best coffee you've ever had!" All of a sudden the other machine makers would have power failures at their displays and couldn't demo their products. ;D

The simple answer is the 58mm must be the best size or it wouldn't be so widely used.

+1

It's only common sense ... bigger portafilter ... more coffee ... more flavor.

 :)

Just goes to show, common sense isn't so common. A lot of smaller diameter portafilters use deeper filters, so they're still using 14 - 18 grams of coffee.

Yeah ... the Vivaldi went that route.  Would be interesting to pull shots side by side with a Vibiemme and see who pulls the best shot.

 :)
1-Cnter, 2-Bean, 3-Skin, 4-Parchmnt, 5-Pect, 6-Pu
lp, 7-Ski

Pyment

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #40 on: June 06, 2010, 03:30:33 PM »
I am somewhat tempted by all this talk. I sold my Silvia when I couldn't get a decent shot from it and lost patience with it. I now own a superauto and never use it.

So getting another machine now doesn't make sense to me (since I haven't had a shot that I have liked). So, I will have to make the trek to Dave's or Peter's to convince myself it would be worth it.

BoldJava

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #41 on: June 06, 2010, 03:34:57 PM »
I am somewhat tempted by all this talk. I sold my Silvia when I couldn't get a decent shot from it and lost patience with it. I now own a superauto and never use it.

So getting another machine now doesn't make sense to me (since I haven't had a shot that I have liked). So, I will have to make the trek to Dave's or Peter's to convince myself it would be worth it.

Peter's.  I am replacing the group head gasket and PID'ing the Silvia. No more surfing.  Seeing Peter's new Vivaldi, doing some background reading along with his purchase, and then tasting the shots from Schotzie really drove home the critical nature of the temp control.

B|Java
« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 03:44:29 PM by BoldJava »

Pyment

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #42 on: June 06, 2010, 03:51:31 PM »
OK then. I need to determine what I like.

Just found a used Rancilio S-27 and a Rossi RR45 on craigslist. Would that be a decent set up?

BoldJava

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #43 on: June 06, 2010, 04:40:01 PM »
Visit Peter's and get an eyeful of his set-up.  That is a good beginning point for gearing your sights down or up.

B|Java

Tex

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Re: Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!
« Reply #44 on: June 06, 2010, 04:50:56 PM »
OK then. I need to determine what I like.

Just found a used Rancilio S-27 and a Rossi RR45 on craigslist. Would that be a decent set up?


The only knocks I'd have against an S27 is because of its funky group design.


With the group hanging off the boiler with little contact, there is no good way to manage group temps. The group temp would fluctuate as brew temp water is passed through it, and the brew temp would fluctuate with the group temp. I like a more massive group design, like the 13 pound E61 group on my Bunn ES-1A, which maintains a more stable temp as water passes through. I also prefer a group design with thermo-siphon group temp management design, again like the E61 group.

Bottom line: The Rancilio S27 would require more work to find and consistently hit a group temp sweet spot than an E61 group machine.

« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 04:52:32 PM by Tex »