Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!

[Tex]

Here's a news flash: As far as ease of pulling a shot goes and the quality of the shot are concerned, the SB/DU and double boiler are in a dead heat. Both designs involve heating a boiler to the desired brewing temperature and pulling a shot when the temp has stabilized.

The single biggest limiting factor in shot quality is boiler volume, since the SB/DU machines are often lower priced consumer machines they usually have much smaller boilers than the more costly prosumer double boilers machines.

The biggest difference in the two designs is their steaming capabilities. The double boiler machine has separate boilers for brewing and steaming, thus both functions can be done concurrently. The SB/DU machine uses the same boiler for both functions, so to use the machine to steam milk means a wait of some time as the boiler temperature is adjusted upwards.

[Pyment]

So I would have to add a PID? Is this something most guys could handle? Would I end up with a better machine than a Silvia?

That probably means it isn't worth the $1000 the guy is asking. I have asked the guy for pics. I also asked if he would sell them separately.

So, How much to offer?

[Tex]

Here's what a 13 pound E61 group looks like disassembled;



The two large holes in the foreground are the thermo-siphon connections to the heat exchanger. This 13 pounds of brass equates to a lot of thermal mass, which means better heat retention as brewing temp water passes through it.

[Pyment]

So are you saying the only reason to get a machine more expensive than the Gaggia classic or the Silvia is to get one with the E61 group?

[Tex]

So are you saying the only reason to get a machine more expensive than the Gaggia classic or the Silvia is to get one with the E61 group?

No, but I would only get a more expensive machine if it could make better espresso. That's determined by management of brew temperature and brew pressure. The Rancilio Silvia group is pretty much the same as the S27, hung off the side of the boiler and relying upon passive group temp management. The Gaggia group is directly below the boiler, in what's referred to as a saturated group configuration (whatever the boiler temp is, the group temp is identical).

If I was going to spend more than a Silvia or Classic costs, I'd consider how I intended to use it. Am I going to be drinking mostly straight shots or Americanos, or am I going to be making lots of milk based, frou-frou drinks? For simple shots there's nothing better than a SB/DU machine with an adequate boiler. The Classic boiler is smallish, the Silvia not much bigger; so ideally, I'd be looking for something with a near one-liter brew boiler.

For someone like John or Sean, there's nothing better than a double boiler machine. It'll let them pull shots and turn to making their frou-frou immediately. With a SB/DU machine you have to wait 30 seconds to a couple of minutes for the boiler temp to rise from brew temp to steam temp before proceeding.

Notice how I never answer a question directly? That's because there are so many design and manufacturing variables that evade simple answers. I want a machine with a heavy group, and if it's not a saturated La Marzocco/Synesso/Gaggia group, then I'd at least want an E61-type group with thermo-siphon temp management. I'd want the best boiler temp management device I could get or add (a PID). I'd want a large enough brew boiler that intra-shot and inter-shot temp stability wouldn't be an issue.

And I'd want a machine that I can work on myself, made with off-the-shelf parts, not proprietary parts that are difficult to get and when you can get them are outrageously expensive. That's one reason I like main-line commercial machines; I can get any part I need from http://cafeparts.com or http://espressopart.com for very little money. The same goes for Gaggia machines; parts are available from http://shop.partsguru.com and http://www.electra-craft.com.

[Tex]

So I would have to add a PID? Is this something most guys could handle? Would I end up with a better machine than a Silvia?

That probably means it isn't worth the $1000 the guy is asking. I have asked the guy for pics. I also asked if he would sell them separately.

So, How much to offer?

I'd opt for a PID on any HX machine I bought that has a pressurestat. The pstat is a pressure switch that controls the boiler pressure, usually at 1.3 bar, which equates to ~253°F. The pstat most often used is a Siria 3-relay model.

Now, try to imagine 3 relays constantly opening & closing as the boiler pressure rises & falls. Click clack, click clack: constantly click clack, as you're trying to read, watch TV, or have a conversation.

For me the pstat simply had to go! The good news is the pstat is easily yanked out and a PID installed. The good thing about prosumer and commercial machines is there's more room for mods than in a cramped consumer machine like a Gaggia or Silvia.

[mp]

Why should the portafilter diameter affect the shot quality so much?

I'm no physicist but how else could it be?

If you exaggerate it and spread the 14G to a thin layer you can imagine that extraction has to taste different from one where the 14G is stacked up in a long skinny column no?

  

I have the answer you have all been looking for. After owning a ton of machines, many levers both home and commercial, prosumer semi-autos and commercial semi autos, I have done a lot of research into different companies takes on PF size.

Both a 58mm double commercial PF basket and an Elektra MCaL or Olympia Cremina (spring loaded vs manual lever. . . that calls for a completely different thread of it's own) 49mm double PF hold right around 18g of coffee, but there is one huge difference. . . a 58mm commercial machine will pull a 1.5oz shot while my Elektra would only pull a mere .75-1oz shot with a pull and a half of the lever (aka fellini maneuver). So why the difference in diameter? The narrower baskets give the resultant shot so many more layers of flavor! It is night and day with the exact same coffee. I happen to have had an Isomac Tea II at the same time as the Elektra and they both made great shots, the Elektra's just had a lot more character (The same can be said for the Cremina's shots). This was consistent with almost any coffee I put through both machines.

The Elektra did have a few downfalls of it's own and they are as follows: they can only manage about 3 double shots in a row and they are so hot you need to shut them off, they can only hold enough water for about 5 doubles total with flushing in between, small shot volume, and although their finish is so beautiful (I had a brass and copper one) they were impossible to keep sparkly clean and regardless of what rag you used to clean it  you would get micro-scratches!

For the above reasons I got into commercial lever espresso machines. They have huge boilers that can accommodate even the largest group, you can plumb them in or run them from a 5 gallon bottle, they have steam for days, you can leave it on all day without a problem, and if you get a classic one they look sooooo cool! One problem with the majority of commercial lever machines is that the portafilter size bounces back up 58mm. That is why so many lever fanatics drool at the site of new and old La San Marco Lever espresso machines. To this day they maintain the original 53mm portafilter on their commercial levers. This makes them the best of both worlds. You have the convenience of a commercial lever machine with the beautiful layered flavor profile of a smaller home model.

Another thing that really sets levers apart, both home and commercial models, is the overall simplicity and lack of electronic parts. The only electronic parts they have are pressurestats and heating elements (and a brain and PID if you so choose). To me fewer electronic parts means fewer problems, and this has been my exact experience. I have never had anything break on any of the levers I have owned whether I purchased them new or purchased them used and rebuilt / restored them. Obviously you will have to descale them and replace their o-rings from time to time, but that goes for any espresso machine.

No matter how long it takes me I will convert some of you ! It sounds like a few of you may be converting yourselves. . . . Lever machines definitely have a steep learning curve. You will not set one up and pull an amazing shot straight away, but that makes pulling a great shot so much more exciting. Once you get use to them and their borderline finicky tendencies you are rewarded with outstanding espresso.

Thank you for this Warrior.  It has provided me with great insight into this different portafilter size business.

 

[Warrior372]

If a 49mm filter with the same capacity as the current 58mm models produced better coffee, as Warrior says, why aren't the heavy hitters in the commercial machine market rushing to convert? The first maker to honestly say that they've converted to smaller portafilters for the sake of better coffee would have a huge advantage over the competition.

This would be so easy to demonstrate at trade shows, and the truth would be out there for all to see! I can just see it, company Zee brings out their 49mm portafilter machine and the buzz starts; "Have you been over to Zee's display yet? Their new machine uses 49mm portafilters and it makes the best coffee you've ever had!" All of a sudden the other machine makers would have power failures at their displays and couldn't demo their products.

The simple answer is the 58mm must be the best size or it wouldn't be so widely used.

If you had a wide variety of different lever espresso machines in front of you, you would notice several differences between each brand. One thing that you might notice, that they pretty much all have in common, is the height of their group head water chambers. Across the board, whether we are talking about home lever machines or commercial lever machines, almost all of the machines would have a 4-4.5" chamber. The height and diameter of the chamber have a direct impact on how much water will fit into that chamber. Something that would be different among the many lever machines you have in front of you would be the diameter of the PF. Elektra = 49mm, Ponte Vecchio = 45mm,  Conti = 58mm, Caramali = 58mm, La San Marco = 55mm. All of these PFs with a double basket in them will fit approximately 18g of ground coffee.

Now, if you have the same amount of coffee with varying amounts of water being pushed through those tamped 18g pucks what differences will you see? You would find that the water flowing through the more narrow PFs had to push it's way through more coffee to get into the cup.You would also find out that less water going through will result in shorter shots, anywhere from .75-1oz. As a result of the previous two occurring, you would find that the machines with more narrow / taller PFs, and subsequently a more narrow water chamber,  rendered shots with slightly more body and more layers of flavor.  I think this has a lot to do with the design rationale behind most commercial espresso machine manufacturers PF size. They get a pretty darn good extraction and a 1.5oz volume in the cup. That is good for business.

Okay, now visualize something for me. Pretend you have 2 portafilters in front of you, a 58mm La Marzocco PF and a 55mm La San Marco PF from a lever. Now fill them both with 18g of coffee and tamp. The 58mm PF will have a wider / flatter puck to the La San Marcos more narrow / taller puck. The resultant shot volume will be slightly different with the 58mm LM producing 1.5oz and the La San Marco producing just under 1.5oz. So why does the shot taste different? Picture the water going through the coffee in individual droplets. Each drop of water going through the 55mm La San Marco PF will touch more coffee grounds and extract more of the essential oils compared to the water going through the the flatter / wider 58mm LM PF. The resultant product has a more vibrant flavor that presents itself in many more layers with slightly more body, due to the smaller volume of water, when compared to the shot pulled through the 58mm LM PF. It seems rather simple to me, the more layers of coffee you go through, the more you can extract from those grounds. I am not saying the 58mm La Marzocco is pulling garbage, I know they can pull amazing shots, but the end results are dramatically different.

James Freeman at Blue Bottle swears by 55mm La San Marcos. He is simply obsessed with them for pulling SO espresso shots, and that is all he uses them for in his shops. The Lux Coffee Bar in Phoenix, AZ uses a 3 group La San Marco Lever espresso machine as their primary machine in their shop. Tom Owens of SweetMarias says the 2 San Marco Lever espresso machines he owned were 2 of the best machines he ever had. An individual within Home-Barista, who has also restored a 1970s La San Marco Lever, utilizes his La San Marco Lever and a Synesso in his shop. He too states that he much prefers the shots from the La San Marco to the Synesso (although he did say he likes the temp stability of the Synesso when serving customers in a crowded cafe). These things have a cult following, and most of the people who have tasted prime shots from them become believers.

I think most people are scared of what they do not know, and levers are definitely not the norm. Most people who own coffee shots have never encountered, or care to encounter, a commercial lever espresso machine. I think all but the best coffee shops probably have way to high of an employee turnaround rate to take to time to teach someone proper technique machines that are much more finicky than a standard semi-auto.

I do have to say that I do not agree with the comment stating that most companies must use 58mm PFs because they are better. The reason I disagree is I have 2 machines in my house that could change everyone in this forums mind. I have never believed that the most widely accepted anything is ever the best simply because it is more commonplace. If you trace the PF size of almost all of these companies back to their early beginnings, you will find that their PF sizes have not changed. They probably do not see the majority of coffee consumers worldwide really caring all too much about the minor intricacies that a slightly more narrow / taller PF would add to the final cup. Let's be honest. . . . most people probably wouldn't.

Another thing most consumers probably would not like is a new and improved better tasting shot with a new volume of 1oz, per a 49mm lever setup, as compared to 1.5oz, from a 58mm lever setup. 98% of consumers would not be able to tell any difference outside of the increased cost per ounce of espresso. Not to mention if you reduce the amount of espresso you will also have to reduce the amount of water when making an Americano, milk when making a Latte and Foam when making a Capp, which means smaller drinks around the board. That probably would not fly!

I am sure even your mind could be changed, once you come over to the dark side Tex .

[Pyment]

I think I get it.

Basically you prefer the Gaggia line because their group is heavier and because of where it is situated relative to the boiler. By PID'ing the boiler on these machines you also control the group temp.

THe next consideration is how much milk steaming you want to do. That would influence how you want the boiler arranged. It seems the Baby Twin would be the most flexible.

[Tex]

I think I get it.

Basically you prefer the Gaggia line because their group is heavier and because of where it is situated relative to the boiler. By PID'ing the boiler on these machines you also control the group temp.

THe next consideration is how much milk steaming you want to do. That would influence how you want the boiler arranged. It seems the Baby Twin would be the most flexible.

Except the Baby Twin is widely accepted to be a POS; Gaggias answer to the Edsel! If I really wanted to use a Gaggia for its shot producing ability, and also wanted to make frou-frou drinks, I'd look for a stand-alone steamer to compliment the Gaggia.

[peter]

I think I get it.

Basically you prefer the Gaggia line because their group is heavier and because of where it is situated relative to the boiler. By PID'ing the boiler on these machines you also control the group temp.

THe next consideration is how much milk steaming you want to do. That would influence how you want the boiler arranged. It seems the Baby Twin would be the most flexible.

Stop planning to frustrate yourself, plop down some coin, and get something that you will grow into instead of putting it up for sale after a year of lousy coffee.   

[Warrior372]

If a 49mm filter with the same capacity as the current 58mm models produced better coffee, as Warrior says, why aren't the heavy hitters in the commercial machine market rushing to convert? The first maker to honestly say that they've converted to smaller portafilters for the sake of better coffee would have a huge advantage over the competition.

This would be so easy to demonstrate at trade shows, and the truth would be out there for all to see! I can just see it, company Zee brings out their 49mm portafilter machine and the buzz starts; "Have you been over to Zee's display yet? Their new machine uses 49mm portafilters and it makes the best coffee you've ever had!" All of a sudden the other machine makers would have power failures at their displays and couldn't demo their products.

The simple answer is the 58mm must be the best size or it wouldn't be so widely used.

+1

It's only common sense ... bigger portafilter ... more coffee ... more flavor.

 

So you would say a Standard 1.5oz shot has more flavor and body than a 1oz Ristretto shot?

[Tex]

I think I get it.

Basically you prefer the Gaggia line because their group is heavier and because of where it is situated relative to the boiler. By PID'ing the boiler on these machines you also control the group temp.

THe next consideration is how much milk steaming you want to do. That would influence how you want the boiler arranged. It seems the Baby Twin would be the most flexible.

Stop planning to frustrate yourself, plop down some coin, and get something that you will grow into instead of putting it up for sale after a year of lousy coffee.   

Lousy coffee is more an indictment of the barista, not the equipment! I used to keep a Delonghi EC140b around, just to prove to folks that fresh coffee, properly ground and distributed in a non-pressurized filter, would let even the cheapest espresso machine make decent coffee (not great, but decent & drinkable coffee).

But you're right, each person should match the machine they buy against their bank statement and ego. Some folks will never be happy pulling great shots with a PID'd Classic or Silvia - they just don't  have the pizazz some folks seek. Some folks are like my 60ish neighbor, a Corvette just says something about who they are, you know!

[peter]

I used to keep a Delonghi EC140b around, just to prove to folks that fresh coffee, properly ground and distributed in a non-pressurized filter, would let even the cheapest espresso machine make decent coffee (not great, but decent & drinkable coffee).

But a Rocky doesn't cut it.  You are one big Texas-sized contradiction.

And it isn't possible that your neighbor just always wanted a Corvette so he went and got one?  Why do assume that someone buying something other than what makes sense to you has ulterior motives?

[Tex]

I used to keep a Delonghi EC140b around, just to prove to folks that fresh coffee, properly ground and distributed in a non-pressurized filter, would let even the cheapest espresso machine make decent coffee (not great, but decent & drinkable coffee).

But a Rocky doesn't cut it.  You are one big Texas-sized contradiction.

And it isn't possible that your neighbor just always wanted a Corvette so he went and got one?  Why do assume that someone buying something other than what makes sense to you has ulterior motives?

That's exactly why he bought the 'vette - he wanted it. I'm the one who's attributing his purchase to mid-life crisis. And how else would we measure anyone's action by if not by our own standards? I see the mid-sixties oil executive marrying the mid-twenties daughter of some main-line family and I think trophy wife. Right or wrong that's how I perceive it.

So I see the guy who buys a $2000 - $5000 espresso machine and say to myself, "Self, does that espresso machine make espresso that's better than a PID'd Rancilio Silvia or Gaggia Classic??" And my self answers, "Of course not, the buyer's succumbed to some perceived reality, not reality as you know it."

Now I'm not saying a persons perception of reality isn't valid for them, just that the reality may not be valid for anyone else. Each person makes decisions suitable to their wants and needs. Trying to convince someone else that your perception of the truth is the only truth, is the ultimate in hubris.

I myself try to present options, based on my sense of what's real and valid. I hope anyone reading my opinions understands that my reality may not be applicable to their situation. Take anything I say, mix it with whatever someone else is saying, weigh your wants & needs, and base your decision on your own version of the truth.

Or ignore everything I say - it's all the same to me.

edited: And the Delonghi wasn't used as an example of what's optimum - just what's possible. The Rocky isn't a terrible grinder - it just doesn't meet MY minimum standards as an acceptable espresso grinder. If it works for you that's great.