Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!

[mp]

Choices choices ... in the end everyone ends up getting what they like.

I started with a Gaggia Carezza, then got an Auberins PID poor excuse for an espresso machine, and then went HX.  There is for sure some truth in the saying buy your last machine first and stop squirting around.

I have had the HX for over two years now and have to say I am still loving it.

 

[John F]

OK How is it different and how does it happen?

Well....I just worked 15 hours.

Looking over the last few pages of this thread I think I picked a great day for that.  

There are several things I saw worth commenting on but for now I'll stick with Py's question.

A lot of what you will notice right away if you drop brew pressure to ~9 bar from something static set higher is visual. You can clearly see a richness/depth/gooieness  to the shots that is not there at higher pressures. The taste is a lot harder to explain and difficult to quantify but it's good enough here just to say there is a difference you will taste it.

Only by having the ability to adjust brew pressures can you uhm.... adjust brew temperatures.  

It's in doing it that you can chase after things and "pick your spots".

That is if you are into that sort of thing and not strict allegiance to textbook golden rule and everything that Illy, Shulman, and (pick a favored figurehead) etched into stone tablets on mount coffee.  

[Tex]

Sheesh, when did they stop just being called Single Boiler?
Don't all single boiler machines do that??

Can your LaPeppina steam? Can you pull hot water from an Oscar or La Pavoni lever? This is an Orwellian nightmare, where not all pigs are as equal as others.

[Tex]

One of the reasons I like boilers is that they don't use anywhere near the same amount of water/power as an HX. Not a big deal for most, but my water is high scale, and I'm in a hard to plumb, hard to drain, not much space, not much available power home office situation.  And I don't think keeping a high load device on 24x7 is a great idea either.

Who knows if steam/milk deserves the priority it gets, but I know I am just another newbie home dude out of the mainstream, thinking milk just hides many of the nuances I am spending so much time/effort searching for in espresso.  I would like to try and understand why in a few months I will be compelled to abandon my trusty factory built Alexia and lust after home made, db, hx, commercial appliances, and multiple group heads.

In the meantime, this looks handy, who's afraid of mediocre milk?
http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/home/espressoaccs/quickmillmilksteamer

Actually, the Gaggia pulls 1500 watts - the same as my 1-group HX. Of course it's only heating 3.5 ounces, not a gallon and a half; but when it's on the thing is sucking some juice!

Upgradeitus has very little to do with reason, or we'd all be getting along just fine with sub-$500 machines. It's penis envy carried over to man-toys; if you value your manhood you'll get the urge for bigger and better toys.

[Tex]

You know Robert about as good as anyone here, Susan.  Can't you talk to him, and get him to admit to his faulty reasoning?  Maybe we can Mankin to help out. 

But why, might I ask, do you care what he thinks if you think he's wrong??

Susan

It's not good for the Club, that's why.

OK, tell you what peter - I'm going to assume that you're joking and pulling my leg through your appeal to my friends? Cause otherwise I'd have to assume that you really believe that my beliefs are wrong?

[Warrior372]

Sheesh, when did they stop just being called Single Boiler?
Don't all single boiler machines do that??

Can your LaPeppina steam? Can you pull hot water from an Oscar or La Pavoni lever? This is an Orwellian nightmare, where not all pigs are as equal as others.

I do not know about an Oscar or La Pavoni, but you can pull a shot and steam milk at the same time on any spring loaded lever with a steam wand.

[Pyment]

Just to show where I come from. So far other than the Cafe Caramel raspberry Mocha Latte I haven't found much in the way of espresso to recommend it. Early on, I had a Silvia, but very little idea of what I was wanting to get or how to get there. I had little experience with well made espresso. Needless to say, I became frustrated and sold the machine and bought a super auto. It can make decent drinks, but teaches me very little about the process.

At the SCAA, I entered a drawing and won a Krups thermoblock machine. It was relegated to the cabin. Only recently, have I begun to experiment with it and a Saeco Titan grinder. Getting some surprisingly better results than I ever did with Silvia. Drinking an Americano that is probably about on par with Starbucks.

So, as my wife says, maybe It'd be better if I learned the machines I have than got better machines.

I am sorely tempted by the La Peppina. I would be interested if anyone had one to sell.

[BoldJava]

At the SCAA, I entered a drawing and won a Krups thermoblock machine. It was relegated to the cabin. Only recently, have I begun to experiment with it and a Saeco Titan grinder. Getting some surprisingly better results than I ever did with Silvia. Drinking an Americano that is probably about on par with Starbucks.

So, as my wife says, maybe It'd be better if I learned the machines I have than got better machines. . .

Dave, what is it that you feel you have yet to learn about your super-auto or the Krups?  From all the research from which you have pulled, I would think you are beyond either unit.

B|Java

[GC7]

You know Robert about as good as anyone here, Susan.  Can't you talk to him, and get him to admit to his faulty reasoning?  Maybe we can Mankin to help out. 

But why, might I ask, do you care what he thinks if you think he's wrong??

Susan

It's not good for the Club, that's why.

I would agree with this statement and apologize for my part.  However, I initiated a response here early in the thread that was my honest opinion and I was viciously attacked.  I will not stand for that and exposed him for his mistakes with his own experts words.  I am exceedingly happy to be able to buy world class coffee beans through the club and discuss their merits when I have something to add. Maybe I just should stick to that. Moderators can decide if behavior allowing attacks like Tex enjoys initiating will be tolerated.

[peter]

You know Robert about as good as anyone here, Susan.  Can't you talk to him, and get him to admit to his faulty reasoning?  Maybe we can Mankin to help out. 

But why, might I ask, do you care what he thinks if you think he's wrong??

Susan

It's not good for the Club, that's why.

OK, tell you what peter - I'm going to assume that you're joking and pulling my leg through your appeal to my friends? Cause otherwise I'd have to assume that you really believe that my beliefs are wrong?

Maybe, if when you said that SBDU machines are considered by many experts to be the best machine for home use, and state it as fact rather than your opinion, and then revert to slandering someone who disagrees with you, my humble opinion is that this behavior is bad for the Club.  You'll notice there was no winking smilie in my first post, nor is there one here.

Maybe, if you'll take your own bias out of the mix, and not say those who want a different (read more expensive) machine than yours, and not think that's the equivalent of penis envy, my humble opinion wouldn't be that your manner of debating is bad for the Club.

The summary, since you don't like Shaun's long posts; you made a statement as fact, got called out and said CG7's a jerk; you cite links to some 'experts' that don't even support your claim, CG7 points that out; now he has no credibility and your allegations against him get more heated.  It goes on and on.  If you had simply said, "Gee, I realize I posted something that was my opinion, but I stated it as fact," and done so a few pages before you did, none of this would have happened.

But that's just the Harmon way of doing things.  The rest of us may as well get used to it, 'cuz it happens over and over and over again.


That part about 'it' being bad for the Club, has two parts; 1) if anyone, yes anyone, spouts something not entirely accurate, and other members swallow it... that's bad.  2) if someone else says they don't think it's entirely accurate, and it turns into 8 pages of 'you don't know what you're talking about, you so and so'... that's bad too.


From someone who has no credibility, because I've only been pulling shots for 3 months...

[GC7]

Peter

Thank you for that reply.  For my part I will refrain from posting where I am aware that "loose cannons" lurk.

Now back to monitoring a roast of some wonderful Colombia Planadas   

[John F]

I remember another thread that was a lot like this one.

Only that one was worse. Tex was advocating things like distribution was irrelevant and other cornball ideas.

I know that Staylor was in that one and so was I, both of us doing what he and a others are doing now, It also went a ton of pages. What I learned from there and subsequent threads like this is a few things:

Tex admittedly will post incorrect information for his personal entertainment. (fact)
He does not see that as a credibility issue because he will ultimately, if backed into a corner say it's only his opinion anyway and probably resort to telling you that you will argue about brass balls on billy goats. (fact).
He admittedly will post with the intent of disruption and in the case of alt. his goal was to destroy it. (fact).

I say (fact) because there is example after example of this in many threads, it's not just my opinion.

But the causal reader does not know that.

Also they may not know that on his website he does agree that distribution matters (last time I looked anyway). So what you see here or other places may or may not be what he really thinks....it may or may not be a ruse. You just don't know. What makes this very interesting is that he has a decent sized group of fans that are very happy with what has has done to educate total newbies to get them to a point of making entry level acceptable coffee.  So when they read a thread like this they must suffer some confusion but I digress...

The dude is a bit off.  Simple as that (IMO)  He has amassed a very large block of very useful information that has probably helped hundreds of people pull their first non garbage shots. He has developed what has to be the largest volume of data on gaggia machines anywhere including Gaggia...yet on any given day he might post that you can make decent espresso with 30 day old beans or so other such wackiness and before you know it there is an 8 page mega goofy thread.

I don't know if it's just for fun, if he is trying to accomplish something , or what the deal is but as has been said a few times now it happens over and over.....

I still haven't figured it out from the first one of these from what might have been a couple years ago. 

[John F]

I am sorely tempted by the La Peppina. I would be interested if anyone had one to sell.

You mentioned somewhere back about "skipping ahead" to the lever.

I'm not sure it's a good idea. Not sure it could be bad either but from what you say you have never had good results via pump machines and if you don't take any time to go explore that and figure out what's up I don't know that you will be in the right place to use the lever as the next frontier. It will be your starting point.

I find it hard to find the words to say why that might not be the best idea because it's a fine idea....you are just missing a giant chunk of travel if you do that but your destination is still a good one. Does that make any sense?

 

[CAGurl]

I am sorely tempted by the La Peppina. I would be interested if anyone had one to sell.

The La Peppina is a beauty, and I had to have one as soon as I saw one.
Her one drawback was that she scared me.
The water is being held in a tank which is very susceptible to being pulled right over.
There isn't adequate weight in the base of the machine to make it quite as stable as you might like.

That says nothing whatsoever about the quality of the shots, but it was something I had no considered before I had to have mine.
When I had the opportunity I traded her.

Susan  

[CAGurl]

I remember another thread that was a lot like this one.

Only that one was worse. Tex was advocating things like distribution was irrelevant and other cornball ideas.

I know that Staylor was in that one and so was I, both of us doing what he and a others are doing now, It also went a ton of pages. What I learned from there and subsequent threads like this is a few things:

Tex admittedly will post incorrect information for his personal entertainment. (fact)
He does not see that as a credibility issue because he will ultimately, if backed into a corner say it's only his opinion anyway and probably resort to telling you that you will argue about brass balls on billy goats. (fact).
He admittedly will post with the intent of disruption and in the case of alt. his goal was to destroy it. (fact).

I say (fact) because there is example after example of this in many threads, it's not just my opinion.

But the causal reader does not know that.

Also they may not know that on his website he does agree that distribution matters (last time I looked anyway). So what you see here or other places may or may not be what he really thinks....it may or may not be a ruse. You just don't know. What makes this very interesting is that he has a decent sized group of fans that are very happy with what has has done to educate total newbies to get them to a point of making entry level acceptable coffee.  So when they read a thread like this they must suffer some confusion but I digress...

The dude is a bit off.  Simple as that (IMO)  He has amassed a very large block of very useful information that has probably helped hundreds of people pull their first non garbage shots. He has developed what has to be the largest volume of data on gaggia machines anywhere including Gaggia...yet on any given day he might post that you can make decent espresso with 30 day old beans or so other such wackiness and before you know it there is an 8 page mega goofy thread.

I don't know if it's just for fun, if he is trying to accomplish something , or what the deal is but as has been said a few times now it happens over and over.....

I still haven't figured it out from the first one of these from what might have been a couple years ago. 

The only part of this that gets my knickers in a knot is the suggestion that Tex's tutelage would have only led me to make "entry level acceptable coffee".  That kinda irks me;  perhaps you'd still think so if you came and drank my espresso, but....how do you know?

For the rest of it, it seems to me that you have egged him on and encouraged him in this very behavior you are now griping about.   The last time I dropped out of the club was when Tex started taking swings at me and multiple members (with one outstanding exception, thank you Milo) jumped on board.  You haven't ever asked him to behave and now everyone is getting snarky and jumping on him but I see no inconsistency in his behavior from the getgo.  Get a grip.  Tex is Tex.  Take him or leave him, but don't encourage his bad behavior and then criticize him for it.

Susan