Author Topic: Able Company Disc Fine Aeropress Filter  (Read 3813 times)

Offline YasBean

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Re: Able Company Disc Fine Aeropress Filter
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2012, 06:40:55 AM »
I don't get the problem with the Aeropress basket.  So, 2/3 of the screen is blocked.  The screen is big.  We don't need all the coffee to flow out at once.  Slow is part of the design.
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Offline rasqual

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Re: Able Company Disc Fine Aeropress Filter
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2012, 07:44:51 AM »
My experience leads me to disagree. Among Alan Adler's scores (hundreds?) of posts in the Aeropress thread at Coffeegeek, where a huge number of issues with its design were hashed out as perhaps with no other manual device on the planet, not once did he indicate that "slow is part of the design."

(And I'm STILL getting the links wrong-- ARGH -- the posts just BELOW the posts I linked to, people. Good grief. I can yammer coffee at CG till the cows come home, but I can't get the links right. Seriously, read that background material. It'll help.)

To the contrary, "slow is part of the design" has been largely repudiated as a principle in the growing popularity of the "bottomless" dripper cones that recognize that rate of flow is properly under control of the person doing the brewing. It is not properly a constraint on that person's prerogative to vary the brewing variables at will. The engineer's proper goal is to get out of the way of the brew -- by which I mean constrain no variables.

Now in truth it's different in the consumer world. Joe Consumer needs to be told how to do stuff, often enough. But I think we're talking in geek territory, where literacy with and fluency in the brewing variables is our bread and butter. We don't want our degrees of freedom, our axes of operation, limited by some designer who has "how do I do this?" Folgers or Flavored folk in mind.

But Alan Adler was no such designer. This was one of the few failures in the design of the Aeropress. As with most design failures, it didn't result from the failure of a zealous quest to find the perfect cap hole design. It resulted from deeming that a relatively unimportant issue, with no quest at all. Bear in mind that Alan was not, and is still not, a coffee geek per se. He's merely a design geek -- and a good one. But on this he dropped the ball. And why not? For precedent he had generations of coffee device designers who labored under the delusion not that flow rate was unimportant in devices like dripper cones, but that it was valuable to limit the flow rate to "help" consumers get things right.

It makes sense. If Joe Blow uses a grind that's too coarse, it helps to slow the flow so that wet time is increased. It self-corrects. As the grind gets finer, the holes in the dripper become less the choke point than the grind itself.

But that's for a less literate age. It's seriously time for designers to turn the corner and not coddle Jane Consumer. If she's willing to buy a manual dripper in these far more coffee-literate times, by golly, take that as a sign that she's probably willing to learn the basics about brewing variables. Why not? She's taking her coffee seriously, finally, the same way she takes her Slow Food or Local Food seriously.

(this is turning into a manifesto asserting a particular value on the cultural issues bearing on the question of coffee device flow rate, a true sign that GCBC is every bit as geek as CG)

None of that's relevant to the Aero anyway, it's just pointing out that ways of thinking about flow have been . . . unfortunate in the design world in general. Alan had few examples -- if any! -- of devices that took this concern seriously.

Well, to conclude instead of meander further -- no, we DO need the filter to be wide open. That allows the person doing the brewing to architect his own extraction with no needless limit on the range of the flow variable. Being satisfied with a limited flow rate because it may happen to match your own balance of the variables -- that is, thinking the design is fine because you, personally, don't need it to be different, is not good thinking -- or at least, not generous thinking. It indicates kind of a "why would anyone concern themselves to do things differently than I do?" attitude. I'm not accusing you of actively not caring; I'd just suggest that personal contentment with a thing doesn't instantly motivate one to advocate for changes to that thing to serve purposes valuable to other people (where those changes would not affect your own use). I personally shrug about most sports -- but I wouldn't advocate bad seating designs at the stadium.    ;)

This may have been what happened with Alan in the cap design. But designers should never shrug off something like that -- especially with an insane number like 68% obstruction.

Some of this is just illusion in action. "Ah that filter has a lot of holes in it. No biggie." OK, so if I gave you a filter with 2/3 of them removed and also gave you a device that allowed them all to effectively pass fluid, would you not ask me "why didn't you put more holes in this thing? there's a lot of flat metal between relatively few holes here!" Of course you would -- rightly. This proper judgment does not become moot merely because the holes are rendered ineffective by their use in a particular device. In the case of the original Coava and Able filters, they already have too few holes. That was known the moment they hit the street by anyone familiar with previous generations of similar devices, and the constancy of this critique doubtless led to the version we now anticipate getting our paws on.

Gah! I yammer. Up and out.

Credo:  "Free the Flow!"     ;D
« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 07:51:59 AM by rasqual »

EricBNC

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Re: Able Company Disc Fine Aeropress Filter
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2012, 08:08:54 AM »
If you buy or make a metal filter, you could take a hot knife and cut a huge section out of the middle of the stock black plastic bottom. With paper, the grounds and filter would spill through thanks to the paper filter's lack of rigidity.  The Able is rigid and would hold shape and still perform as a filter even with out the bracing provided by the honeycomb of plastic lattice work.

Something that looks like my crude rendering would be easy to make - then the theory would be put into practice:


Offline YasBean

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Re: Able Company Disc Fine Aeropress Filter
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2012, 08:18:00 AM »
I still don't get it. Even with the Coava screen, you will have, what, 50% obstruction. It sounds to me that you want a electro-magnetic super laser beam at the end of an open pipe. I am not trying to be snotty. It just seems necessary that there will be some obstruction, and it is up to you to press the water through the filter at the right time.
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EricBNC

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Re: Able Company Disc Fine Aeropress Filter
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2012, 08:30:45 AM »
Yasbean, my thoughts align closely with yours, but testing Rasqual's theory would be easy if someone does not mind cutting on their Aeropress part.

Offline rasqual

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Re: Able Company Disc Fine Aeropress Filter
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2012, 10:30:38 AM »
I still don't get it. Even with the Coava screen, you will have, what, 50% obstruction. It sounds to me that you want a electro-magnetic super laser beam at the end of an open pipe. I am not trying to be snotty. It just seems necessary that there will be some obstruction, and it is up to you to press the water through the filter at the right time.

Then take away 68% of the 50%.     :P

"My rotator cuff motion is limited to 50% of its normal range. Why would I worry about it being reduced further to 16% of normal!"

16%! The logic of "it's already limited, so what's with still more limits" is precisely backwards.

The issue is this: why artificially limit the flow? It's a brewing variable. Would you want someone to tell you you could only brew for between 4:15 and 5:15 minutes -- never outside that range? Or would you buy a grinder that was designed to permit only certain grind levels and not other useful ones? What if manufacturers didn't offer you boilers, but water heaters that took pains to make sure the temperature never got over 196 degrees?

You would think all of these artificial constraints on brewing variables to be preposterous -- and rightly so.

One of the Aeropress's virtues is that termination of extraction can occur at any time. Having a faster potential flow rate (the actual flow rate is determined by you, the user, when you press) permits even more control -- a briefer window of terminating that extraction. This depends on grind, of course. Compounding the matter is that much of an Aeropress's extraction occurs during the press (my own theory: well more 50% with a relatively fine grind). This commends (but does not require) a grind that's coarser than the threshold for grind-as-bottleneck, which means a quick termination in many cases may (but not must) depend on a maximal flow rate.

Basically, yes, an open pipe would be ideal. Absolutely. Positively. (in fact, as a teenager I once applied that same logic to a diy bong ;-)

That's why we like the Hario and comparably open drippers. That's the entire point. Only the user's discretion should limit that brewing variable of flow rate -- not a kindly manufacturer who delusionally imagines they know how to constrain your wisdom in how you, based on other constraints you may have with technique, grinder etc., put the variables to work.

Think of it this way. Look at the limit cases. One tiny hole in the middle of the cap. "That's absurd." Agreed. Wide open pipe. "That's abs..." Hold on. No, it's not. Not in all cases. You're capable of slowing the flow by introducing your own impediments. The Coava/Able filter's own limited number of holes does so -- dramatically. Your own preference for impeded flow (which I'd actually believe is your mere indifference to less limited flow -- I don't think you're consciously preferring limits as you are just not sure why having no limits is important) is not defeated, but those wishing to exploit the greater flow are free to do so. The full possible range is there, and there's no downside for those who prefer impediments. The Coava/Able filters would impede flow more, I dare say, in a wide open pipe than their upcoming replacements would do in a conventional Aero cap. Seriously. Think about that.

Think of it this way: a good scientific theory is fruitful of further work in that area, further theories, more experiments. Likewise, a well-designed brewing device can either constrain everything and deliver perfect coffee (analogous to having discovered the scientific grand unified field theory) or, since we don't have that, it can allow for control of any and all variables within any possible range, so that the coffee experimenter can dial in whatever he wants, however he wants, without having to suffer the limits of his apparatus. "We can't explore the complete range of variables x, y, and z -- because variable w is pegged at a maximum of whatever and thus no function of these variables can exceed w's limit." If w were wide open, the range you could vary x,y,z would be wider.

I can -- and will -- argue this successfully. By which I mean I will persuade you and make a believer out of you. Just be patient with me. I might introduce graphs to make the point visually. And I will succeed. Not because I've created a right idea, but because I'm defending the purity of wide-open boundaries in the world of coffee brewing variables. The Aeropress is a hot rod that allows varying the variables more than with any other device. To defend its one bad design element in this respect -- flow rate when surface filters are being used -- is virtual heresy because the theology of the Aero, this element aside, is libertarian variables. With drippers I might grumble about people defending artificially limited hole sizes and such. With the Aeropress, it's Athanasius contra mundum. This is war.      ;D
« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 10:33:55 AM by rasqual »

Tex

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Re: Able Company Disc Fine Aeropress Filter
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2012, 10:55:43 AM »
Then again, most of us are perfectly content with the imperfections of the current design and see no need for improvements. Or as grandpa often told me, "If it ain't broke don't fix it!".

edited: A prime example of when to apply the Pareto Principle and when not to. Is it better to spend 80% of your time to get a 20% improvement in AP filtration, or would it be better to spend the 80% improving bean selection and roasting skills?
« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 11:01:45 AM by Tex »

ecc

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Re: Able Company Disc Fine Aeropress Filter
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2012, 11:27:14 AM »
The resistance of the cap is in series with the resistance of the ground puck.  The total resistance would be the sum plus any border impedance.  This isn't a bottleneck/parallel situation, where smaller component resistances get bigger flows.

The pressure during brewing is related to the total resistance of the filter and the puck.  Too little resistance would mean very little pressure in the brewing container.  So in effect you aren't really expanding the experimental range, you are just sliding the experimental window towards behaving like a small plastic french press.

Another issue with providing the majority of the resistance in the ground puck would be uneven extraction rates along the puck due to the pressure drop within the puck.  One end would be subject to chamber pressure, the business end would only have the pressure provided by the resistance of the cap.  Increasing cap resistance and increasing grind would make the pressure differential smaller across the puck.




« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 11:30:38 AM by ecc »

Offline YasBean

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Re: Able Company Disc Fine Aeropress Filter
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2012, 11:31:17 AM »
Okay, wait a minute!  If you want to reduce the obstruction of your Aeropress by 50%, why not just increse the diameter of the disk/cap by 50%? Voila!

But, the Aeropress is the size it is, and if it takes me 5 seconds longer to press my coffee out, then I will begin 5 seconds earlier, or 3 seconds earlier and press harder.  Now try pouring harder with your open drip and getting better control of time.

I like Yakster's idea of experimentation over theorizing.  I respect your philosophical prespective on this, but... wait a minute, I need a cup of coffee if I'm going to keep this up.
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Tex

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Re: Able Company Disc Fine Aeropress Filter
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2012, 12:05:22 PM »
The rule around here seems to be, "When all is said & done, less is done than said."

Show me the modified filter holder or go away - quietly!

jbviau

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Re: Able Company Disc Fine Aeropress Filter
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2012, 12:19:08 PM »
...Show me the modified filter holder...

Yes, please! rasqual, given your passion about this issue (since 2006, apparently), I'm a little surprised you haven't just tried the mod. I don't mean to pile on, but we're talking about a $9 part on a sub-$30 brewer... ;)

Offline rasqual

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Re: Able Company Disc Fine Aeropress Filter
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2012, 02:12:42 PM »
Tex, jbviau: AGAIN with the links. In order for you:

http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/268740#268740
http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/268478#268478
http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/268745#268745

Okay, wait a minute!  If you want to reduce the obstruction of your Aeropress by 50%, why not just increse the diameter of the disk/cap by 50%? Voila!


Why would you throw more material at something if merely increasing the porosity would have the same effect? That's like having a minivan 68% full of debris, so because you can't fit all the kids in it you trade it in for a 12 passenger van which you ALSO have 68% full of stuff. Why not just make it more efficient? -- not bigger with the same inefficiencies.   :P

Quote
But, the Aeropress is the size it is, and if it takes me 5 seconds longer to press my coffee out, then I will begin 5 seconds earlier, or 3 seconds earlier and press harder.  Now try pouring harder with your open drip and getting better control of time.


I'm not arguing that you cannot make do. Anyone not wishing to brew using techniques that take advantage of higher flow rates will do quite fine with it. That's not going to make your coffee any worse or better, because there are myriad ways to juggle the brewing variables and get a great cup. I'm arguing that the Aeropress's cap could have been designed to be more efficient with surface filters -- which is what it's sold with, and which the Able filter is. Against that argument I'm not sure what possible argument could be constructed. Arguing that it's OK for you is not a counter-argument against the proposition that it would be a more flexible brewing system were its cap better designed (using less material, in fact). It does no good to protest that the town wouldn't benefit from an expanded public park merely because you only play chess in the tables on the corner of it.    ;)

Quote
I like Yakster's idea of experimentation over theorizing.


Argh! That's all those threads at coffeegeek were -- experimenting.

The resistance of the cap is in series with the resistance of the ground puck.  The total resistance would be the sum plus any border impedance.  This isn't a bottleneck/parallel situation, where smaller component resistances get bigger flows.


Yes and no. Again, a limit case. If your puck is fine grind / thick / tight pack, the effect of the cap hole size is negligible. The puck is

[edit: ? I have no idea what I lost when posting]

Quote
Another issue with providing the majority of the resistance in the ground puck would be uneven extraction rates along the puck due to the pressure drop within the puck.  One end would be subject to chamber pressure, the business end would only have the pressure provided by the resistance of the cap.  Increasing cap resistance and increasing grind would make the pressure differential smaller across the puck.


That paragraph excellently introduces a less frequently mentioned brewing variable -- because pressure has traditionally only seemed relevant for espresso. But that's probably because it actually is relevant only at such high pressures (analgous to time dilation's triviality at Newtonian velocities ;-)  The agitative effect of flow through the puck, I'd assert, is what's most a factor in Aeropress extraction.

Key point remains: You can add a Coava and impede flow through an Aeropress, if that's what you want. There's nothing you can do with the existing cap -- short of the mod I link to above (or similar mods) -- to improve flow. Were it designed as I suggest in one of the other two links, you would still be free to impede flow with a suitable drop-in filter, but you'd be as free to take advantage of improved throughput with surface filters because you'd have three times the filtering surface working for you.

You can always add impediments to flow. But the only way to eliminate them is to open things up -- either with a depth filter, and/or with a better cap design.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 08:39:08 PM by rasqual »

Offline rasqual

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Re: Able Company Disc Fine Aeropress Filter
« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2012, 03:11:58 PM »
I don't hang at CG much any more, but whenever I drop in to check things out I notice that the expertise over there has improved dramatically. Not that it was ever bad -- but there're some extraordinary people hanging out there, whose base knowledge is way, way into the stratosphere in a lot of relevant disciplines.

CG continues to be a very, very cool place.

Tex

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Re: Able Company Disc Fine Aeropress Filter
« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2012, 05:01:48 PM »
I'll have to check out CG again - oops, forgot, they're blocking me.

Offline grinderz

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Re: Able Company Disc Fine Aeropress Filter
« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2012, 06:49:15 PM »
I'll have to check out CG again - oops, forgot, they're blocking me.
One site's trouble making troll is another sites loveable (but banned) curmudgeon.   ;D

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