Author Topic: French Press vs. Pourover  (Read 4776 times)

Offline John F

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Re: French Press vs. Pourover
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2015, 10:54:55 AM »
Exactly what BY just said.

I've tried a zillion different pouring concepts.  Sometimes I've got thermometers in the slurry,  sometimes I'm pausing, ssometimes never not pouring.

You do this enough and you will develop a sense of things the scientists will never see.
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Offline mp

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Re: French Press vs. Pourover
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2015, 04:44:49 PM »
The closest to perfect cup of coffee I've ever had was by cold water brewing.

Simple, relatively effortless, and little to no caffeine is extracted.

You REALLY get to taste the coffee.

 :)

(Well ... someone had to hijack.  :o)
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ButtWhiskers

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Re: French Press vs. Pourover
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2015, 07:47:00 PM »
The closest to perfect cup of coffee I've ever had was by cold water brewing.

Simple, relatively effortless, and little to no caffeine is extracted.

You REALLY get to taste the coffee.

You do get to taste the coffee (the pyrazine compounds that "taste like coffee"), but it's the tannins, not the caffeine, that get left behind in cold brewing.  They tried to tout the Toddy as reducing the caffeine, but in HPLC analysis of a couple dozen different extractions by different labs compared to the same amount in hot water, the range was -30% to +20% by comparison - hardly "little or no caffeine"...  And when compared to total dissolved solids, there was actually a greater ratio of caffeine to dissolved solids in the cold-brewed coffee.  The solubility of caffeine is much lower in cold water than in boiling water, but it is still something like 2g (2000mg) per 100mL.  100mL of regular old coffee (about 3.4 fluid oz) typically only has about 75 milligrams of caffeine, so it isn't anywhere near the max solubility - cold or hot. 


Offline mp

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Re: French Press vs. Pourover
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2015, 08:23:17 PM »
You do get to taste the coffee (the pyrazine compounds that "taste like coffee"), but it's the tannins, not the caffeine, that get left behind in cold brewing.  They tried to tout the Toddy as reducing the caffeine, but in HPLC analysis of a couple dozen different extractions by different labs compared to the same amount in hot water, the range was -30% to +20% by comparison - hardly "little or no caffeine"...  And when compared to total dissolved solids, there was actually a greater ratio of caffeine to dissolved solids in the cold-brewed coffee.  The solubility of caffeine is much lower in cold water than in boiling water, but it is still something like 2g (2000mg) per 100mL.  100mL of regular old coffee (about 3.4 fluid oz) typically only has about 75 milligrams of caffeine, so it isn't anywhere near the max solubility - cold or hot.

I wouldn't even begin to counter that.

All I know is that the Kenya AA bean I had when extracted by a drip brew was no where near as sweet and the flavor was no where as near pronounced as the cold brew.

You can probably explain the chemistry behind that.

 :)
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Offline peter

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Re: French Press vs. Pourover
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2015, 08:50:20 PM »
BW wasn't contesting the flavor comment, but the low-caffeine comment.  I make cold-brewed concentrate for iced coffee in the summertime, and that stuff will mess you up if you're not careful, like awake-for-2-days messed up.
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Offline John F

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Re: French Press vs. Pourover
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2015, 09:12:56 PM »
I must have done it wrong.

My cold brew left me with a low caffeine headache and I gave up on it.
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Offline Batman

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Re: French Press vs. Pourover
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2015, 12:55:29 PM »
BW wasn't contesting the flavor comment, but the low-caffeine comment.  I make cold-brewed concentrate for iced coffee in the summertime, and that stuff will mess you up if you're not careful, like awake-for-2-days messed up.

Agree.  I make a cold brew concentrate for the wife, and it should have warning labels.

Offline John F

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Re: French Press vs. Pourover
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2015, 01:10:20 PM »
Are you guys sure?

My bloodstream tells me a different story....the opposite story.
"At no point should you be in condition white unless you are in your bed sleeping with your doors locked."

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iluvpop15

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Re: French Press vs. Pourover
« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2015, 09:53:20 AM »
Why do you let the coffee bloom for only 10 seconds?  I have have heard that 20-30 seconds works best.  What difference does  a longer bloom have on the coffee?  I always figured that by removing more of the CO2 from the beans it allows for a more full extraction, but that is only speculation.

I would agree - removing CO2 is the goal.  My reasoning is that after about 10 seconds of moistening/blooming (following the actual addition of the water to do that, which takes a few seconds as well), the grounds tend to form their own little bubbles and dry pockets where there is insufficient moistening, and hence, less degassing.  Getting the agitation going again seems to effect the desired outcome of degassing and moistening.  This agitation is done with a spoon or a stirrer by some, prior to the pour, and if you try this after about 10 seconds you will see that the grounds are not always homogeneously wet.  My goal is to get the grounds wet, hot, and liberating their essence without cooling back down - the CO2 is driven off by the heat, as well, so I try to use the water column to do this.  We could debate and speculate on what is "ideal", but this is what works for me, and is the culmination of many years of pourover as my primary brewing method.   Undoubtedly there are more skilled brewers of coffee with prestigious pedigree that would freak out on my barbaric practices, but my ritual is quite adequate to get the job done for me.   ;)


What do you use to brew your coffee?  It sounds like a Hario or something along those lines a 52 oz vessel, do you use 52 oz of water or fill the vessel up all the way?   What is the "golden ratio"?  Sorry for all these questions, I am incredibly new to fine coffee haha:)

ButtWhiskers

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Re: French Press vs. Pourover
« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2015, 01:03:55 PM »
What do you use to brew your coffee?  It sounds like a Hario or something along those lines a 52 oz vessel, do you use 52 oz of water or fill the vessel up all the way?   What is the "golden ratio"?  Sorry for all these questions, I am incredibly new to fine coffee haha:)

I am a barbaric savage.  I have an old school polycarbonate cone  :o  that fits right into a 56oz vacuum insulated pitcher (thermos-like container).  I use an electric kettle that boils 1.7L of water.  It is crude and not very elegant, but it makes damn good coffee.  Every time I buy something to replace it (like Hario glassware), I soon find that stuff gathering dust as I go back to my tried-and-true device.  I really like that cone as it has a round spout and also fits into an airpot.  It has made thousands of pots of coffee. 

The 'golden ratio', actually the "Gold Cup Standard" of the SCAA, is:
"between 3.25 and 4.25 ounces in weight (92 grams and 120 grams, respectively) of coffee per 64 fluid ounces of water (1.9 L), resulting in a coffee strength between 1.15% to 1.35% dissolved coffee flavoring material."
I'm fine with that concentration, myself, but a large percentage of 'the common folk' will sputter at that strength, and beg for dilution.   ;) 

Kstreet99

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Re: French Press vs. Pourover
« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2015, 03:52:03 PM »
The best ratio I have found for drip coffee is 11ml of water for every 1g of ground coffee. I also find  2ml/s to be the best flow rate. The time it takes to brew all the water (let's say 500ml) should be half the the volume of water in seconds. (so 500ml divided by 2 in seconds, 250 seconds) I bloom the coffee for 30-50 seconds by pouring in twice the weight of the coffee. (If there's 20g of coffee, then it would be 40ml of water) Hope you guys can try this out and let me know if you get as great results as I do :)


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Offline stevea

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Re: French Press vs. Pourover
« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2015, 04:04:53 AM »
Much of the good stuff already said.

One aspect unmentioned - the french-press is a b*tch to clean up compared to pour-over.   Those spirals on most FP pots tangle w/ the coffee granules and require a brush and TOO MUCH TIME to get free, then a de-oiling wash.  I sincerely appreciate my several FPs, but it's a few tweaks short of a love affair.

Gotta disagree with the venerable BW on a few MINOR points.

IMO the FP will release more oils than the pour-over+swiss-gold.  This is pretty apparent in the body/mouthfeel.
Yes swiss-gold type metal filters are a LOT better than paper, but they still create a filter-bed effect in the grounds that retains a lot of oils.  So as much as hate the clean-up, something pretty wonderful happens when the granules "go commando" in hot free FP water.

If someone-else is doing the clean-up and doing a really good job - then definitely FP over pour-over.  I never put these in the dish-washer, but ... maybe someone else can comment on that.  Somewhere closer to Realityville (where we must face our own messes in the morning light by the kitchen sink) - FPs are a dirty greasy mess-about-to-happen, but can produce a really good cup w/ a modest effort.  You get more, you pay more.

I'd need to crack out my coffee-sci lit, but I seriously doubt coffee has much true tannins - that is polyphenolic matte able to cross-link proteins.   Simple phenolic compounds produce an amazing array of colors and flavors, some good & important, many awful.  These tend to polymerize under oxidative conditions (like roasting or even aging), and the smaller poly-phenolic compounds *tend* to be perceived as bitter (in a bad, coarse way, unlike the good/sharp-bitter goodness of caffeine).  As the size of the phenolics (molecular DP, degree of polymerization) increases to "tannoids" these lose any characteristic flavor, but fall into the modestly bad-bitter realm and begin to produce a tongue-drying effect usually called "astringent".  Coffee seldom get to the astringent range, much less the tannin range, tho' I recall one monster-bean Mexican that was offensively "woody" (like adding a pinch of toasted hardwood sawdust to a pot) and was astringent, but that was exceptional.  The solubility of these phenolic compounds drops dramatically w/  DP, but since we swirl up clouds of insolubles, particularly in a FP .... We probably get more from a FP.  The solubility of polyphenolics is highly dependent on pH, which leads to the next topic.

===
The "water hardness" issue needs to be seriously addressed .. somewhere.  The nostrums (like 80ppm hardness)  are a crude start, but fail to address the basic issues.  This is no thread for a treatise on water chemistry, but in broad strokes ....

Harness is defined as the concentration of multivalent metal ions in solution - *mostly* Calcium(Ca) & Magnesium(Mg).
In "natural" water sources there is commonly a prevalence of Ca(calcium) over Mg ions (maybe 3:1 or 4:1)
These metal ions can be associated with Carbonates (called temporary hardness) and also (most commonly Sulfates called) permanent hardness.  There are other forms of permanent hardness, like chlorides or other metal salts, for example

Generally speaking, well water has high level of hardness, primarily temporary (carbonate) hardness.   Surface water (lakes, rivers) have similar or lower levels, and rain-water is relatively free of ions.  Local conditions can of course vary.  Municipal water facilities "treat'" water for two issues - temporary hardness and sanitation.

The sanitation measures include addition of sodium hypochlorite (bleach) at ~2-3ppm Cl- ions which is expected to produce ~0.2 - 0.3ppm Cl- at the tap.  *OR* (increasingly popular) the addition of "chloramines".  These are chlorine/amino acid compounds that dissociate slowly and are intended to retain 0.2-0.4ppm of Cl- in solution.  The chloramines are more effective at sanitation b/c they persist longer throughout the pipes, BUT they also generally persist at higher levels in tap water.  Tap filter methods do not remove chloramines.

Since chloro-phenolic compounds have horrific flavor profiles, de-chlorinating water is a very good measure.  The commercial methods of chlorinating water include the addition of sodium or potassium meta-bisulfite (available at any home-brew or wine-making shop) , OR the addition of ascorbic acid, OR the addition of peroxide (hydrogen peroxide available at any drugstore).  Any anti-oxidant can do the job, but meta-bisulfites & peroxide are particularly quick-acting.   Typical additions rates are 600mg of sodium metabisulfite / 1000 l (a hot-tub full) of water, but ~2.5 tsp (10ml) of the 3% hydrogen peroxide per 1000l works as well.  I use UNchlorinated, too-hard well water at home, but I did and would suggest using hydrogen peroxide (3% HP in diluted by 1:100 (to 0.03%), store in fridge, added at 1ml[1/4 tsp] per liter or quart.  Add to water and mix well.  Don't be afraid to add 2tsp/57fl.oz of the very dilute peroxide.  Any peroxide excess is likely to oxidize something else  (perhaps coffee oils) - but would be overwhelmed by the relatively huge qty of oils.   Metabisulfite excess will reduce rather than oxidize, but will increase the available SO2 level to noticeable levels only in massive excess.

The other FUNK wrt hardness is that not all hardness is alike, and it dramatically impacts acidity (which in turn impacts polyphenolic solubility).  Temporary hardness is entirely due to carbonates, and these have a major impact on acidity & pH (two distinct concepts).  Muni water supplies prefer to get TEMPORARY hardness <80ppm so they don't produce a scum-ring when the water is boiled.  Folks operating commercial boilers have a similar problem with this carbonate scum & accretion.

Carbonates in solutions have 3 forms; carbonates (high pH, limited solubility), bi-carbonates (intermediate pH, very soluble), carbonic-acid (low pH=CO2-carbonation).  Muni-water suppliers reduce *TEMPORARY* hardness by two methods,  MOST add slaked lime, this increases the pH, and causes a lot of the carbonates to drop out of solution as chalk and these have limited solubility and so drop out of solution.   Another method that is common in homes and rarer (but still used)  in muni-supplies is a permutit filter. There is a resinous material that traps the Ca & Mg ions and replaces these with Na or K (sodium or potassium mono-ionic ions) and these also replace carbonics with (primarily) chloride (very soluble, NOT temporary).

So (again in broad strokes) the carbonate & bi-carb  (TEMPORARY hardness) in your water (typically 80+% of hardness) acts as an acidic buffer,  It prevents the natural acids in coffee beans from pushing the water toward lower pH, more acidity.   The PERMANENT hardness in softened water or de-carbonated water does NOT do this.  So its sorta-stupid to talk about hardness w/o taking about the TYPE of hardness.

Not dumping on BW at all.  Normally most hardness is temporary (even in Muni supplies) so his <80ppm is at least reasonable but not IMO a correct or reasoned position.

---
For many years I have believed the UK penchant for adding citrus or lemon to tea was all about adding acid, reducing phenolic solubility (tea flavor is primarily abt phenolics, and tea can form a phenolic "scum"ring that is clearly defined) by reducing the pH of their typically temporary hard water.   My suggestion is that reducing the water pH (adding acid to water) and removing the TEMP hardness by CO2 evolution before making tea.


I *suspect* the coffee suggestions to use modestly hard water is all about avoiding the problems of very hard, heavily buffered water (which overwhelm the coffee acids), and perhaps adding the benefit of the flavor active sodium ions (from permutit filtration) to the water which tends to accentuate sweetness [note all the early comments about adding salt(NaCl) to coffee].
 
« Last Edit: August 20, 2015, 09:46:05 AM by stevea »
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Offline Gene

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Re: French Press vs. Pourover
« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2015, 08:26:23 PM »
I like to keep it simple:

I just love seeing that bloom in the BeeHive pourover. Might be my background in fine cooking and baking but I go after the beauty of the bloom and the aroma and ya know that makes it taste better too. I even go to the extreme of using my coffee scoop to make a nice big indention in the grounds to get more of the hot water to act as a pre infusion. I've had some really good french press coffee but the whole process is just to complicated for me anymore. I love my pour over!

Simple is best for me...
pour over on cloudy days, espresso on sunny days, off the gr