Author Topic: Renegade Vs US Roasters  (Read 3215 times)

Pyment

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Re: Renegade Vs US Roasters
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2010, 08:12:06 PM »
My wife's not particularly pleased.  ::)

Offline John F

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Re: Renegade Vs US Roasters
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2010, 08:25:33 PM »
My wife's not particularly pleased.  ::)


Mine isn't either.  ;)

I am looking at 3-5 Kilo roasters and lever machines at the same time.....

I can only think of one thing to say about my situation.

Molly Hatchet: Flirtin With Disaster
"At no point should you be in condition white unless you are in your bed sleeping with your doors locked."

Lee Morrison

Pyment

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Re: Renegade Vs US Roasters
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2010, 05:37:19 AM »
Here, let me help.

http://boulder.craigslist.org/gms/1738784818.html

http://detroit.craigslist.org/mcb/for/1738071402.html

http://sanantonio.craigslist.org/app/1718167374.html

http://knoxville.craigslist.org/app/1699157601.html

http://cgi.ebay.com/ESC-8-Pavoni-Stradavari-8-cup-Chrome-black-handles-/290434525367?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Small_Kitchen_Appliances_US&hash=item439f3f28b7

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-PC-16-PAVONI-PRO-CHROME-MILLENNIUM-/290434524454?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Small_Kitchen_Appliances_US&hash=item439f3f2526

http://cgi.ebay.com/Pavoni-Professional-Espresso-Machine-PC-16-LIKE-NEVV-/270577430464?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Small_Kitchen_Appliances_US&hash=item3effabefc0

http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-SAMA-LUSSO-LEVER-ESPRESSO-COFFEE-MACHINE-/400121152951?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Small_Kitchen_Appliances_US&hash=item5d291445b7

http://cgi.ebay.com/pavoni-espresso-machine-maker-/290433847204?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Small_Kitchen_Appliances_US&hash=item439f34cfa4

http://cgi.ebay.com/Pavoni-Europiccola-Espresso-Machine-Mint-Condition-/130390098589?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Small_Kitchen_Appliances_US&hash=item1e5bdb029d

http://cgi.ebay.com/Cara-Vintage-Espresso-Machine-/260599111666?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Small_Kitchen_Appliances_US&hash=item3caceadff2

http://cgi.ebay.com/Pavoni-PRH-Profess-Copper-Brass-Espresso-Machine-16c-/150440392939?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Small_Kitchen_Appliances_US&hash=item2306f238eb

http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Astoria-Gloria-AL1-Lever-Operated-Espresso-Machine-/200466453218?cmd=ViewItem&pt=BI_Hot_Beverage_Brewers&hash=item2eacbb52e2

http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Astoria-Gloria-AL2-Lever-Operated-Espresso-Machine-/170479160049?cmd=ViewItem&pt=BI_Hot_Beverage_Brewers&hash=item27b1598af1

http://cgi.ebay.com/Riviera-lever-Espresso-machine-/280498716099?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Small_Kitchen_Appliances_US&hash=item414f06bdc3

somehow the Riviera made me think of you.

crholliday

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Re: Renegade Vs US Roasters
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2010, 07:51:26 AM »
If I had my choice, I'd go for an L5.  Love that machine.  For larger, I love the old cast iron Probats.  I've seen David Waldman's at Rojo's Roastery in NJ.  Restored by Marty Curtis--an old '54 Probat that had one owner before David.



Simply a beautiful and functional machine.


Is that a San Francisco sample roaster on the left? Marty is an artist!

cfsheridan

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Re: Renegade Vs US Roasters
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2010, 10:01:58 AM »

Is that a San Francisco sample roaster on the left? Marty is an artist!

Yes.

Offline Warrior372

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Re: Renegade Vs US Roasters
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2010, 01:01:02 PM »
Counter Culture coffee has several roasters, one of which is a US made Renegade. The other two are a Samiac (who is now out of business) and a Roure. All three companies have a very different approach to roasting. Samiac has the most traditional approach with the utilization of thermal heat transfer.

Roure is a highbred. They, more than any manufacturer on the market, utilize extreme conduction with an air current of 6,000 ft/min in their  roasters. The inner drums are also perforated. This in combination with the 3 heating methods imparts a very different taste to the coffee: conduction, convection and radiant. The burner is placed at the 'head of front' of the roaster and the blower is oriented on the top back of the roaster. The blower sucks ambient room temperature air through the front of the machine, it passes over the burner heating the air, the air is then sucked through the perforated drum at an upward angle to the top back of the machine where it is sucked / blown out. At the same time the burner itself heats the drum too. Roure also uses very thick cast iron in their roasters, everything is made from cast iron. They are absolute brick s@#t houses. They use this roaster for coffees that are clean and bright, stating it if usually used for Africans and Central Americans to emphasize the crisp high notes.

Renegade uses cast iron that is around 1/3 as thick as the Roure, so the heat retention is not as great. Their approach is similar to Roure's, but they use exactly half of the airflow at 3,000 ft/min and utilize a solid roasting drum. They state the thing they like most about it is the overall control and ability to replicate and get identical results from one roast to another. They use the Renegade for long slow roasts, usually espresso roasts to draw out and emphasize sweetness and body. Here is a video of a renegade in action. As you will notice they have a very unique sound / noise volume to them.
first batch on renegade roaster


The Samiac uses 1,200 ft/min airflow. It is their oldest roaster, and they usually use it for specialized micro-lots as they have grow to be larger and larger over the years.

To get back to your original question, before I run off on another side tangent, US Roaster Corp roaster are going to be more along the lines of the radiant heat and conduction Samiac. They do not utilize high airflow convection in their machines.

All of this info is taken from an article I found on Counter Culture Coffee while researching the Roure Roasters versus the Renegade Roasters. The link to this article is below.

http://www.teaandcoffee.net/0408/coffee.htm

As for the Giesen Payment posted. These roasters are made by a family that has worked at the Probat factory, who have been working there / assembling roasters by had for generations. After Probat moved their manufacturing to China, quite a few of the family members were out of their jobs. As a result, they very recently, in the past year or two, have formed their own company where they still make the roasters by hand. They look very solid, but unfortunately they information you see on their site is the only information you will get on them. I contacted Willem Boot, the only distributor in the US, to get more information and he told me all of the information is on their website . . .  and I told him not all of the information I wanted was, to which he did not have a response . . . There is only 1 video of a Giesen on YouTube and it is very limited to what it shows. They function a lot like the Samiac, roasting with radiant heat and conduction. They are built like complete brick s*#t houses, with everything being made of very thick cast iron.

The pricing on the Giesens from Willem Boot were $10,150 for the 1kg W1 and $20,300 for the 6kg W6. Here is the video on the W15 Giesen:
Giesen W15 roaster


On the other hand, the Owner and President of Roure, Jaime Roure Padros, is very personable. He is a second generation owner of this manufacture, which is still a family owned and operated company out of Spain. They make all of their roasters by hand. If you email the company the owner and president himself will be the one responding to you. . . which means a lot to me. He takes a lot of pride in his roasters and is more than willing to discuss them with you to no end. He is extremely responsive through email, and at no time did I wait more then 12 hours for very thorough response to any and all of my questions.

The Roure 1Kg E1-A roaster is $5,600 (it is only made in an electric heating element setup) and the 5kg is $23,500. I believe that included shipping from Spain and installation as well. Jaime Roure Padros sends out installers from the factory so the jobs gets done right the first time.

If you are interested in any / all of these roasters, your best bet might be to contact Counter Culture coffee and see if you can plan a visit to see all three of their roasters in action. It will give you a lot of insight to really the 3 types / variations of roasters available on the market, whether it is the exact make model you are interested in or not.

I hope all of this info is useful to someone :) ! If you have any questions on these or any other roasters, feel free to message me either here or PM me. I know of a lot of brands that get very little recognition and have done a ton of research into all brands of roasters. Email me what you are looking for spec / result wise and I will give you my opinion / what I know.





« Last Edit: May 15, 2010, 01:09:08 PM by Warrior372 »

BoldJava

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Re: Renegade Vs US Roasters
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2010, 01:13:31 PM »
...Roure is a highbred. They, more than any manufacturer on the market, utilize extreme conduction with an air current of 6,000 ft/min in their  roasters. The inner drums are also perforated. This in combination with the 3 heating methods imparts a very different taste to the coffee: conduction, convection and radiant.

This month's issue of Roast Magazine has a superb article on the theoretical and then practical applications of heat methods.  Great article.  I am working my way through it for the second time, very slowly.

B|Java


Offline Warrior372

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Re: Renegade Vs US Roasters
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2010, 04:56:15 PM »
...Roure is a highbred. They, more than any manufacturer on the market, utilize extreme conduction with an air current of 6,000 ft/min in their  roasters. The inner drums are also perforated. This in combination with the 3 heating methods imparts a very different taste to the coffee: conduction, convection and radiant.

This month's issue of Roast Magazine has a superb article on the theoretical and then practical applications of heat methods.  Great article.  I am working my way through it for the second time, very slowly.

B|Java



Interesting, I will have to check that out. Do they mention any specific roasters / brands or just applications for different heat methods that different roasters utilize? There is definitely a lot out there and a lot to learn!

Offline shep

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Re: Renegade Vs US Roasters
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2010, 04:46:21 AM »
If I find myself in need of a new or second machine, I am going to give serious consideration to US Roasters 18k machine. Wish I had it last night. When I had the 2k I would say, "If only I had a bigger machine."  Last night while running triple batches of the same coffees 4 different times, I was saying, "If only I had a 40 pounder! "  My dream shop right now is 2 roasters in 2 rooms; one running organics and one running top shelf offerings. The US Roasters guys are motorcycle riders so they go to the top o my list!

Shep
Vagabond, beach bum & motorcycle zealot: a restless soul in motion

Offline Warrior372

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Re: Renegade Vs US Roasters
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2010, 08:49:11 AM »
Wow. Good for you for being so busy. Business must be good :) !

BoldJava

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Re: Renegade Vs US Roasters
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2010, 09:00:57 AM »
Roast magazine article is from May-Jun 2009.  Copy of it was in my porcelain library which attests to my reading speed.  Article is worth reading, again and again, for those of us non-science project types.  Takes a while to sink in.

http://www.roastmagazine.com/backissues/RoastIndex09_ByIssue.pdf

It does not speak to specific roasters, though it does deal with air heat conductivity.

B|Java

Pyment

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Re: Renegade Vs US Roasters
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2010, 09:47:21 PM »
I knew I was on to something with the Geisen.

The Roure roasters sound interesting. This lead me to an article on Spanish Roasting equipment:

http://www.allbusiness.com/manufacturing/food-manufacturing-food-coffee-tea/506722-1.html

Doesn't mention Discaf Roasters. Hmmmm.