Green Coffee Buying Club
Coffee Discussion boards => Hardware & Equipment => Topic started by: peter on April 02, 2008, 08:53:29 AM
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What a difference, I have a 50% Poco Fundo with 50% Sidamo Blend and the shots are impressive. I never had espressos like this before.
Machines can make a HUGE difference. A couple years ago I caught wind of a coffee nook in a bookstore in an upscale suburb that was shutting down. I talked to the corporate guy in charge of the bookstore, and he sold me the espresso machine and a Rossi commercial grinder.... $100 for both! The espresso machine was an Astoria, identical to Monito's, but manual. It didn't fit anywhere in my kitchen, and I wasn't in the mood to clean it up, nor run to the basement to pull shots so I sold it to a good friend.
Now to my point about different machines producing vastly different shots (and this is meant with no disrespect for B|Java's Sylvia). This last New Year's Eve I was at the party my good friend Bill threw, and roasted up an espresso blend to play around with on the Astoria. The shots were very, very good, thanks to Jeffo for the blend suggestion. A few days later I took the remainder of the blend over to B|Java's and after repeated attempts, could not get anything worth drinking. Now, I realize that it was mostly due to a novice running Ms. Sylvia, who was too clod-handed to know how to coax her into producing what she was capable of. I tried temp-surfing. It just seemed pretty drastic that the same procedure on two machines came out so different.
But B|Java's happy, producing good results, and for him Sylvia's the perfect mate.
(note, if this is messed up, I went to respond to PeterPockets and once again, hit the 'modify' rather than the 'quote' button. GRRRRRRRR....BJ
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Machines can make a HUGE difference. A couple years ago I caught wind of a coffee nook in a bookstore in an upscale suburb that was shutting down. I talked to the corporate guy in charge of the bookstore, and he sold me the espresso machine and a Rossi commercial grinder.... $100 for both! The espresso machine was an Astoria, identical to Monito's, but manual. It didn't fit anywhere in my kitchen, and I wasn't in the mood to clean it up, nor run to the basement to pull shots so I sold it to a good friend.
Now to my point about different machines producing vastly different shots (and this is meant with no disrespect for B|Java's Sylvia). This last New Year's Eve I was at the party my good friend Bill threw, and roasted up an espresso blend to play around with on the Astoria. The shots were very, very good, thanks to Jeffo for the blend suggestion. A few days later I took the remainder of the blend over to B|Java's and after repeated attempts, could not get anything worth drinking. Now, I realize that it was mostly due to a novice running Ms. Sylvia, who was too clod-handed to know how to coax her into producing what she was capable of. I tried temp-surfing. It just seemed pretty drastic that the same procedure on two machines came out so different.
But B|Java's happy, producing good results, and for him Sylvia's the perfect mate.
I agree with you 100% Peter. I went from a Gaggia Carezza ... dabbled with a Precisia with PID for a couple of months ... and then pulled the trigger on the Isomac Tea ll. On the other two machines I could not find a good combination with the Sumatra Mandling Estate beans no matter how hard I tried ... I was all set to relegate the coffee to cappuccino shots only. Then tried one more time on the Isomac and I could not believe the flavour of the Sumatra. When Shep had the mixing contest which was won by Jeffo and BoldJava's suggestion of Columbian 50% and Sumatra 50% and I tried that on the Isomac I thought WOW ... what a shot!
I'm very glad I bypassed the slight upgrade to 500 to 800 category and went for an HX machine. What convinced me of the good shots produced by them was an email to Wholelattelove that asked them to compare the shot production quality of the Expobar Brewtus 2 and the Expobar Office Lever assuming all things being equal. The tech support person answered back that all things being equal the shot quality would be the same. The 1.4 liter boiler steams like a choo choo train. The E61 group assures that I produce good shots 100% percent of the time. Of course if one wants to get extremely technical I suppose that one could get a PID and a temperature probe at the group head as well as portafilter gauge to accurately measure the pump pressure to assure the absolute strictest adherence to temperature stability at coffee extraction point and exactly 9 bars of pressure ... but hey I've never had better espresso in my life. The taste of the shots I've been having have been heavenly. Having said that if I run into someone with a commercial machine plumbed in and does the high quality fresh roasted beans bit and I try one of their shots ... all bets may be off ... I may have to go commercial.
;D
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Machines can make a HUGE difference. A couple years ago I caught wind of a coffee nook in a bookstore in an upscale suburb that was shutting down. I talked to the corporate guy in charge of the bookstore, and he sold me the espresso machine and a Rossi commercial grinder.... $100 for both! The espresso machine was an Astoria, identical to Monito's, but manual. It didn't fit anywhere in my kitchen, and I wasn't in the mood to clean it up, nor run to the basement to pull shots so I sold it to a good friend.
Now to my point about different machines producing vastly different shots (and this is meant with no disrespect for B|Java's Sylvia). This last New Year's Eve I was at the party my good friend Bill threw, and roasted up an espresso blend to play around with on the Astoria. The shots were very, very good, thanks to Jeffo for the blend suggestion. A few days later I took the remainder of the blend over to B|Java's and after repeated attempts, could not get anything worth drinking. Now, I realize that it was mostly due to a novice running Ms. Sylvia, who was too clod-handed to know how to coax her into producing what she was capable of. I tried temp-surfing. It just seemed pretty drastic that the same procedure on two machines came out so different.
But B|Java's happy, producing good results, and for him Sylvia's the perfect mate.
I agree with you 100% Peter. I went from a Gaggia Carezza ... dabbled with a Precisia with PID for a couple of months ... and then pulled the trigger on the Isomac Tea ll. On the other two machines I could not find a good combination with the Sumatra Mandling Estate beans no matter how hard I tried ... I was all set to relegate the coffee to cappuccino shots only. Then tried one more time on the Isomac and I could not believe the flavour of the Sumatra. When Shep had the mixing contest which was won by Jeffo and BoldJava's suggestion of Columbian 50% and Sumatra 50% and I tried that on the Isomac I thought WOW ... what a shot!
I'm very glad I bypassed the slight upgrade to 500 to 800 category and went for an HX machine. What convinced me of the good shots produced by them was an email to Wholelattelove that asked them to compare the shot production quality of the Expobar Brewtus 2 and the Expobar Office Lever assuming all things being equal. The tech support person answered back that all things being equal the shot quality would be the same. The 1.4 liter boiler steams like a choo choo train. The E61 group assures that I produce good shots 100% percent of the time. Of course if one wants to get extremely technical I suppose that one could get a PID and a temperature probe at the group head as well as portafilter gauge to accurately measure the pump pressure to assure the absolute strictest adherence to temperature stability at coffee extraction point and exactly 9 bars of pressure ... but hey I've never had better espresso in my life. The taste of the shots I've been having have been heavenly. Having said that if I run into someone with a commercial machine plumbed in and does the high quality fresh roasted beans bit and I try one of their shots ... all bets may be off ... I may have to go commercial.
;D
Machines can make a difference, but only in the hands of someone who can pull a good shot. What's a good shot, well I suppose it's the good shot that the particular shot-puller thinks is good. ;-)
Just a few years ago I used to think my shots were pretty good, they weren't, but I had no real terms of reference for what espresso could be. Now that I've been exposed to some of the "best espresso in the world pulled by some of the world's best baristas" and tried a huge amount of retail espresso beans, along with lots of home blending and pulled thousands of shots I'm just starting to think I pull a reasonably good shot. Uhmmmmm, yeah, what was my point...
Actually it was regarding the disservice that the tech support service person at WLL provided when they said the shot quality would be the same. Not possible. Two very different machines. On the surface it appears they might be similar, they aren't. At a minimum the BII has the advantage of a controlled temp environment so that a newbie espresso puller has a much better chance of pulling a relatively good shot, whereas the Office Lever being an HX temp surfer requires a much more experienced hand and even then provides a difficult variable to control with confidence. The intra and inter-shot differences across one shot or several back to back shots would demonstrate this quite well - in capable hands. No offense to anyone here as this isn't directed at anyone in particular, it's just a general commentary.
I'll finish with saying that I've drank shots off $15,000 commercial machines and they were horrendous and drank shots off machines worth 1/10th that value and they were sublime. Machines matter, and they are a piece of a much larger puzzle which includes beans, barista, technique, cleanliness, water, grinder, roaster, storage, and the much sought after espresso-fu.
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Machines can make a difference, but only in the hands of someone who can pull a good shot. What's a good shot, well I suppose it's the good shot that the particular shot-puller thinks is good. ;-)
Just a few years ago I used to think my shots were pretty good, they weren't, but I had no real terms of reference for what espresso could be. Now that I've been exposed to some of the "best espresso in the world pulled by some of the world's best baristas" and tried a huge amount of retail espresso beans, along with lots of home blending and pulled thousands of shots I'm just starting to think I pull a reasonably good shot. Uhmmmmm, yeah, what was my point...
Actually it was regarding the disservice that the tech support service person at WLL provided when they said the shot quality would be the same. Not possible. Two very different machines. On the surface it appears they might be similar, they aren't. At a minimum the BII has the advantage of a controlled temp environment so that a newbie espresso puller has a much better chance of pulling a relatively good shot, whereas the Office Lever being an HX temp surfer requires a much more experienced hand and even then provides a difficult variable to control with confidence. The intra and inter-shot differences across one shot or several back to back shots would demonstrate this quite well - in capable hands. No offense to anyone here as this isn't directed at anyone in particular, it's just a general commentary.
I'll finish with saying that I've drank shots off $15,000 commercial machines and they were horrendous and drank shots off machines worth 1/10th that value and they were sublime. Machines matter, and they are a piece of a much larger puzzle which includes beans, barista, technique, cleanliness, water, grinder, roaster, storage, and the much sought after espresso-fu.
Shaun,
You present an interesting perspective in that you are a professional barista. You have been exposed to far greater coffee machines (espresso makers & grinders), coffees, barista's etc. I can state emphatically that the coffee that I am drinking now is the best I personally have ever experienced ... however it is the best "I" have experienced. I do not have all the exposure that you have to espresso (lucky guy) so this is based on my limited experience. The amount I spent on my HX is worth every penny and with a few mods can be made to produce the digital accuracy of a PID and group thermo coupler to ascertain absolute precise temperature. Am I prepared to shall out for this right now ... emphatically no. I'm still tinkled pink at the amazing espresso shots I am able to pull with this machine. Are the results repeatable for me ... yes ... always ... I just wait till the machine is up to the right temperature at least 20 minutes from cold, then I pour 2 shots of water to warm up the cups, put the coffee in the grinder, grind and fill the portafilter, lightly tamp it, and pull the shot. Nice thick crema the likes of which I've never achieved before come pouring out and I stop it once each cup has 2 ounces of espresso heaven in it. Is this scientifically accurate ... no ... it is most pleasing though to my wife and I and anyone else who ventured to try the coffee.
On the other hand you mentioned that you've had espresso on a $15,000 machine that was bad and an espresso on a $1,500 machine that was sublime. I'm wondering about the variables on that ... ie was the barista the same, was it the same coffee, was the water the same, was the roaster, grinder, storage, cleanliness and espresso-fu the same?
We then enter an area of budget and bank for the buck. How much green can you afford to pursue this hobby with and how much better a coffee can a $15,000 machine produce over a $2,000 machine ... given ALL things equal. In my mind it may be slightly better but then you would be out of pocket $13,000 big ones for a slightly marginal better espresso.
That is my limited experience 2 cents worth.
;D
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Machines matter, and they are a piece of a much larger puzzle which includes beans, barista, technique, cleanliness, water, grinder, roaster, storage, and the much sought after espresso-fu.
Pick your order sir....
I pick this:
Beans/roaster/storage (impossible to separate...it's a chain)
Grinder
Barista/technique (chain)
Machine
Water
Espresso-fu seeks it's own level. ;)
I feel like dejavu... :-\
Machine can't overcome bad coffee or poor technique...bad grind is death...Machine is the tool, the workhorse and must deliver specific criteria but the art is with #'s 1,2,3.
John F
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In order to continue this offshoot I'll make things brief rather than distract from the "Hey check out my espresso machine".
First, I'm probably the best barista on my street but there's no assurances there, beyond that I have no idea. Second, the two points I was trying make were 1) The machine is important but not the solution, 2) There is a very big difference between a stock Office Lever and stock Brewtus II.
And now to the post you just made, MP...
I've always believed and will always support that espresso is as good or bad as the espresso drinker thinks it is. Espresso doesn't exist as a taste other than what the experience is for the individual in that particular moment. My palate, your palate and JohnF's are different. What I like, you might not. My sense of what espresso can be may be a much broader and wilder interpretation of what is "normal" than yours - that doesn't make it right or wrong, just different. Of course there are generally recognized tastes and smells, colors and textures and within that it's fair to say that horrendously sour espresso is, well, horrendous.
A lot of what goes in to a good espresso is simply a matter of removing or controlling variables and also understanding how those variables play against/with each other. Taking the Office Lever vs. the BII is a classic example of additional variables to manage, the Office Lever requires temp surfing plain and simple. No matter what routine a person has with a temp surfing machine, they can never precisely control/experiment from shot to shot to see what the variable called temperature may be adding/subtracting regarding the coffee. Sure, it's easier to be more precise with an Office Lever if mods are made, but, then it wouldn't be a stock Office Lever.
I'm not suggesting your espresso machine, or anyone else's espresso machine for that matter, is deficient in any way. My main thrust is... the espresso machine is important and can make a difference within the much larger puzzle of all the things I mentioned in my previous post. Ultimately, you currently have a machine that is producing the best espresso available and you couldn't be happier and that's what's important.
One of your questions,
"On the other hand you mentioned that you've had espresso on a $15,000 machine that was bad and an espresso on a $1,500 machine that was sublime. I'm wondering about the variables on that ... ie was the barista the same, was it the same coffee, was the water the same, was the roaster, grinder, storage, cleanliness and espresso-fu the same?"
really illustrates the point I'm trying to make. Even when the barista is the same, on the same machine, using the same water, grinder, bean, yadda, yadda, yadda, when everything was the same shot to shot - sometimes one shot is better than the other - huh? What could cause that? Was the technique realllllllly exactly the same, was that distribution just as focused, did the PF "clank" against the grouphead when it got placed in, was it a 1/2 gram off or could it have been a creeping differential pressurization in the boiler, ohhhhhh drat, it was the hot grinder throwing things off a bit due to the previous back to back shot-grindings which changed the subtleties of the shot. One potential variable amongst many subtle variables amongst many obvious variables, all playing off against each other in millions of potential chains. Espresso is as simple or complicated as a person wants to make it, a deeper understanding and a broader exposure to all things espresso has confirmed my "reverse pyramid" theory (it's my theory, mine, mine, mine, hahaha) which generally proposes that the more you understand, the more you understand how much more there is to understand. Love that one.
And so, for final clarity I will repeat... it's not the machine, nor the retail value of the machine that makes for good espresso.
I'm now intellectually espresso-fu'd out for the day. Time to go roast.
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Machines matter, and they are a piece of a much larger puzzle which includes beans, barista, technique, cleanliness, water, grinder, roaster, storage, and the much sought after espresso-fu.
Pick your order sir....
I pick this:
Beans/roaster/storage (impossible to separate...it's a chain)
Grinder
Barista/technique (chain)
Machine
Water
Espresso-fu seeks it's own level. ;)
I feel like dejavu... :-\
Machine can't overcome bad coffee or poor technique...bad grind is death...Machine is the tool, the workhorse and must deliver specific criteria but the art is with #'s 1,2,3.
John F
Just saw your post, my fu is too weak to respond. ;-)
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And so, for final clarity I will repeat... it's not the machine, nor the retail value of the machine that makes for good espresso.
Shaun,
That was quite eloquent. Unfortunately I still don't understand why the same coffee I was drinking in my previous two machines doesn't taste as good as it does on this one (all things the same except the machine).
::)
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Espresso doesn't exist as a taste other than what the experience is for the individual in that particular moment.
And for that we give thanks.....
:wav:
John >:D F
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...
Now to my point about different machines producing vastly different shots (and this is meant with no disrespect for B|Java's Sylvia). This last New Year's Eve I was at the party my good friend Bill threw, and roasted up an espresso blend to play around with on the Astoria. The shots were very, very good, thanks to Jeffo for the blend suggestion. A few days later I took the remainder of the blend over to B|Java's and after repeated attempts, could not get anything worth drinking. Now, I realize that it was mostly due to a novice running Ms. Sylvia, who was too clod-handed to know how to coax her into producing what she was capable of. I tried temp-surfing. It just seemed pretty drastic that the same procedure on two machines came out so different.
But B|Java's happy, producing good results, and for him Sylvia's the perfect mate.
B|Silvia is very happy. As I have said, milk covers a multitude of sins. I have had shots one time in my life and that was with Curly in the Twin Cities. And I thought scotch was an acquired taste....
RE: Machines. When we were at Intelli in Chicago, they had a 3-group Zocco for us to play on. I asked Ryan from Roast Company to teach me to make a tighter foam. I walked up to that Zocco and it was like a Maserati after driving a Model-T. Wow.
B|Java
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And so, for final clarity I will repeat... it's not the machine, nor the retail value of the machine that makes for good espresso.
Shaun,
That was quite eloquent. Unfortunately I still don't understand why the same coffee I was drinking in my previous two machines doesn't taste as good as it does on this one (all things the same except the machine).
::)
Case in point...
Let's start from the basics. The coffee you drank then is not the coffee you drink now. That was then, this is now.
Huh?
Well, your roasting skills were different, your technique was different, your level of knowledge was different, the greens were different, how you tamped was different, the weight of your dose was different, the temp was different and so on and so forth. It wasn't the machines it was a lot of things other than the machines - now you simply have a different variable to control - the newer machine.
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And so, for final clarity I will repeat... it's not the machine, nor the retail value of the machine that makes for good espresso.
Shaun,
That was quite eloquent. Unfortunately I still don't understand why the same coffee I was drinking in my previous two machines doesn't taste as good as it does on this one (all things the same except the machine).
::)
Case in point...
Let's start from the basics. The coffee you drank then is not the coffee you drink now. That was then, this is now.
Huh?
Well, your roasting skills were different, your technique was different, your level of knowledge was different, the greens were different, how you tamped was different, the weight of your dose was different, the temp was different and so on and so forth. It wasn't the machines it was a lot of things other than the machines - now you simply have a different variable to control - the newer machine.
I'm feeling more than a little like Bill Lumberg from Office Space, but I have to say that, "hmmmmm, yeah. I'm going to have to go ahead and, sort of disagree with you there, okay?" ;) :D
I think the only variable MP has changed is the machine, and he is seeing superior results just from that. I have had similar experiences every time I upgraded (except regarding the darned milk, where upgrades just seem to set me back further and further...), and I think the only explanation is that given a certain set of skills and other equipment (what has been called "all things being equal" in this thread), the right machine upgrade can result in immediate improvement. To me it seems difficult to argue otherwise, anyway, since one ends up at reductio ad absurdum before too long.
None of that is to diminish the need to be reasonably competent and alert, and to have a good grinder and system. I just think that it is impossible to deny that, given these things, a machine upgrade actually can produce superior results. Put another way, (most of) these machines don't command the premiums they do from market hype alone. And yes I mean to single out the GS/3. ;D
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I'm feeling more than a little like Bill Lumberg from Office Space, but I have to say that, "hmmmmm, yeah. I'm going to have to go ahead and, sort of disagree with you there, okay?" ;) :D
I think the only variable MP has changed is the machine, and he is seeing superior results just from that. I have had similar experiences every time I upgraded (except regarding the darned milk, where upgrades just seem to set me back further and further...), and I think the only explanation is that given a certain set of skills and other equipment (what has been called "all things being equal" in this thread), the right machine upgrade can result in immediate improvement. To me it seems difficult to argue otherwise, anyway, since one ends up at reductio ad absurdum before too long.
None of that is to diminish the need to be reasonably competent and alert, and to have a good grinder and system. I just think that it is impossible to deny that, given these things, a machine upgrade actually can produce superior results. Put another way, (most of) these machines don't command the premiums they do from market hype alone. And yes I mean to single out the GS/3. ;D
Sorry, don't watch Office Space. But here's the thing...
The variable I was pointing at was time. Over time he got better. Unless of course the timeline he owned the three machines was a single month. If the three machines were owned over a period of a year that's a years worth of advancement in variable's knowledge (in espresso time, like dog years, a year's a really long time) whether or not his first machine was a LM, a BII or a GS3 isn't the point, the point is the more you know, the more you know. Yes, a "more competent machine" can offer the potential for more repeatable, better espresso but with all the variables involved it's hard to simply point at new machine = guaranteed better espresso. Example, someone spends more money to get a commercial HX machine because they believe this will give them better espresso, that might work out to be the case, or not. Simply, working a commercial HX machine is not easy, go work one for a few days and then report back. A $300 machine might put out a better shot than a $1000 machine dependent on one variable, temperature. The $300 machine might have a tighter temperature band than the $1000 machine on an inter and intra shot basis. Spending $5000 doesn't guarantee anything. "Upgrading" doesn't necessarily mean upgrading.
To use MP as an example of how difficult it is to be about precise evaluation on espresso advancement, the dose's have been different throughout MP's espresso life as he doesn't weigh the dose (I did read that correctly, right?) and we know the technique has been different because our skills evolve - those two simple variable change the equation significantly - the old machine, new machine debate can't even be discussed as his technique is not repeatable. For anyone out there, I don't want to debate whether or not a .5 or 1 gram dose difference can be detected, it can.
I don't know what MP's previous espresso machine was, and it really doesn't matter, the newer machine seems to be fitting the needs and that's all that counts I guess.
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Hey Shaun,
I agree with most of that. I'll just add an anecdote: When I was a kid just starting to play bass in a garage band, we were all playing with hand-me-down instruments courtesy of friends and relatives. The guitar and bass and amps were marginally acceptable, but our drummer, instead of having a hi-hat, used a metal lunch box (remember those!) full of pennies, strapped to a music stand. Yes, a lunch box full of pennies strapped to a music stand. We were like 12 or 13 at the time, and we took what we could get. And we thought we were great!
Then one day my guitarist's older brother, a drummer, probably 25 at the time, and very good, came up to announce that our version of "Rock You Like A Hurricane" sounded more like "Rock You Like a Horrible Disaster" to everyone who heard it down in the kitchen. Then he took a seat behind our "drum set" and encouraged us to try again. And let me tell you, he made that "drum set" SING! Lunchbox full of pennies and all. Damn, I still remember how good he made that awful rig sound.
Anyway, I think there are two lessons there. First, anyone with real skill can get the most out of even the most mediocre equipment.
Second, anyone with a certain level of skill can get better results with better equipment. I mean, I'm sure my friend's brother would have sounded even better that afternoon with a real hi-hat, rather than that lunchbox full of pennies....
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I mean, I'm sure my friend's brother would have sounded even better that afternoon with a real hi-hat, rather than that lunchbox full of pennies....
How much better?
As good as the other guy?
Would Neal Peart's set make him able to play Subdivisions?
Better tools are obviously superior to inadequate ones so better espresso machines (meaning the ability to produce repeatable results eliminating variables...temp/pressure) are certainly going to help "the drummer".
Hi hat is much more stable than penny box. PID is much more stable than temp surf.
I think Neal Peart would have drummed circles around your guitarist's brother on that lunch box. 8)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggVy7QsTsPw
John F
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Better is better, you're looking for nuance where there is none. Otherwise you have no business ever upgrading from that Ibanez, because that will always serve you perfectly no matter how good you get. I mean, if you are right, what is a Seagull ever going to do for you? And come to think of it, if machines can't help you improve no matter your skill level, maybe you should not have even bought the Ibanez. >:D :angel:
Not meaning to be offensive of course, just trying to provide a more personal perspective on what I think you are saying, which I think is misguided.
I mean, are you saying that there is never any benefit to upgrading espresso machines, even if you have the skills to work with them?
::)
Edit: Oh, and I totally agree on Neil Peart, but I'll say that this guy was pretty close! Very musical family, and he was their most talented drummer. Not that it matters of course, that was a long time ago...
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I'm going to split this topic soon, but to add my opinion, my cousin has a saying that I have adopted as my own: "I buy the best equipment, that way when I suck I know it is because of me, not my tools (surfboard,guitar,etc..)". Sound advise if you ask me.
Joe
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Not meaning to be offensive of course, just trying to provide a more personal perspective on what I think you are saying, which I think is misguided.
I mean, are you saying that there is never any benefit to upgrading espresso machines, even if you have the skills to work with them?
::)
You are not understanding what I'm trying to say.
Because you mention the Ibanez (it is a perfect example of my opinion here) look what I said about it in post #4 from the acoustic thread here is a copy and past from then.
I'm getting a Seagull S6 in 2 months and I picked up an Ibanez for right now.
If I improve and am still playing in a year or 2 I might take another step up from the Seagull but for my skill level and ear the Seagull is a really good fit for me right now.
Of all the $400-$2,000 guitars I played I really like the Seagull the best (right now). I enjoyed playing it more than high end Martins, Taylors, Breedlove, and others. Undecided
And from post #6 same thread
"I should play the Ibanez for at least a year if not 2 :oand than take a close look at Takamine, Martin, and Seagull and decide at that point (the thinking that my playing and ear will be much farther along then and I can make a better decision on my main guitar."
My position is congruent.
I am saying that my current skill level is not enough to exploit all of what the better guitars have to offer so I picked something that was a good match for now. If my skill level improves and I outgrow the Ibanez I said I want to "upgrade" to what I currently thought was the best the Seagull. I even said that it's what I think is best right now recognizing that in the future my improved skill might dictate something else.
See how that's much different than saying there is no reason to ever upgrade from the Ibanez?
Same with espresso machines.
If I would have canceled my vacation plans and picked up the Taylor it would not have made me play like James Taylor. :-\
We can't spend our way to expert finger picking or god shots.
I'm not trying to make the case that a Carezza is as good as...(well anything) or that the Ibanez is as good as a Martin..or that having better equipment is not preferential. Of course better machines are more desirable than lessor machines I think that is the misunderstanding here...
I'm just trying to put the machine itself like the guitar itself, or the drums proper perspective in the equation. If it's inferior/incapable then that is the end of it. But beyond that it is the tool portion nothing more.
So.... if the only variable your drummer changed was buying a drum set that cost 300% more how much better of a drummer would he be that day?
300% ?
Obviously no.
If his skill was beyond the ability of his old set then he would improve up to the point of his maximum ability because the old set was inadequate and holding him back...but no further...and that is my point.
See what I'm sayin?
John F
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"I buy the best equipment, that way when I suck I know it is because of me, not my tools (surfboard,guitar,etc..)". Sound advise if you ask me.
In a way I think we are saying the same thing.
Different approaches but the same intent. ;)
John F
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"I buy the best equipment, that way when I suck I know it is because of me, not my tools (surfboard,guitar,etc..)". Sound advise if you ask me.
In a way I think we are saying the same thing.
Different approaches but the same intent. ;)
John F
If I may hitch myself onto that thought, I agree that we are in agreement, at least on all of the important points!
Best,
Paul
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Anyway, I think there are two lessons there. First, anyone with real skill can get the most out of even the most mediocre equipment.
Second, anyone with a certain level of skill can get better results with better equipment. I mean, I'm sure my friend's brother would have sounded even better that afternoon with a real hi-hat, rather than that lunchbox full of pennies....
First lesson - agreed.
Second lesson - partially agree - depending on how you are defining "better equipment". And to me that is probably part of the problem in this discussion. If the better equipment is an industry recognized and peer reviewed improvement machine that is considered to be best in class at a particular price point, then yes, from the lesser machine to the better machine there should be a noticeable improvement in shot qualities. I want to say that now is not the time to discuss whether that "improvement" is the correct direction for the coffee... anyway... If the better equipment provides for a tighter temp and pressure band, less intra and inter shot flux, consistently delivers more repeatable results regardless of external effects (machine surface temps, humidity, whatever) in short is truly an improved isolated platform then chances are the same resources, same barista and same understanding and identical application of variables will produce a more desirable shot. Now that desirable part may not be understood or even desired so much in the beginning as the palate adjusts to the newer bigger, better, faster race car-ish machine; perhaps more intensity, flavors, smells may be a bit off-putting initially but in time it may be recognized as an improvement - maybe. And that's the beauty of espresso, upgrades aren't always upgrades, spending lots of cash doesn't guarantee phenomenal espresso and commercial machines aren't the end-state. Maybe I like the tinkle of pennies in a lunch box but find the sizzle of a Top Hat to be distracting. In a year that might be reversed as I learn to drum, in the end it doesn't matter. A happy espresso dude is a happy espresso dude.
I guess the only reason I continue to type paragraphs on this matter is because I believe there are some important subtleties to this discussion, I've tried to bring some of that forth, hopefully there's enough here for contemplation.
Once again, I'm fu'd out and ducking out of here for some easier threads, like bugging Joe about latte art. ;-)
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...A happy espresso dude is a happy espresso dude...
That about sums it up..... ;D
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Now that desirable part may not be understood or even desired so much in the beginning as the palate adjusts to the newer bigger, better, faster race car-ish machine; perhaps more intensity, flavors, smells may be a bit off-putting initially but in time it may be recognized as an improvement - maybe. And that's the beauty of espresso, upgrades aren't always upgrades, spending lots of cash doesn't guarantee phenomenal espresso and commercial machines aren't the end-state. Maybe I like the tinkle of pennies in a lunch box but find the sizzle of a Top Hat to be distracting. In a year that might be reversed as I learn to drum, in the end it doesn't matter. A happy espresso dude is a happy espresso dude.
Oh, I totally agree.
I guess the only reason I continue to type paragraphs on this matter is because I believe there are some important subtleties to this discussion, I've tried to bring some of that forth, hopefully there's enough here for contemplation.
Once again, I'm fu'd out and ducking out of here for some easier threads, like bugging Joe about latte art. ;-)
Shaun, your fu even in its weakened state is still very powerful. Just one point on those subtleties you mention: you seem to take for a given that flat brew temps are more desirable than other profiles, like say a humped profile like Faema and all of their engineers have championed for over forty years, and maybe 30 years before Schomer came along. I would respectfully call you out and demand proof for your (assumed) assertion that they have been wrong for all these years, but as Joe hinted already, that is a subject for another thread!
:D
Best,
Paul
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Wow ... I can't believe how the discussion has blossomed. I don't know if it matters now but I owned the Carezza from Dec '06 and gently put it aside in Dec '07 when the Precisia came into play. Happy with the temperature stability and very happy with the steaming ability I was not impressed with the overall build quality of the machine and decided to skip a category or two and move up to the HX machine. This happened Feb '08.
I use a FreshRoast Plus 8 roaster, & La Cimbali Junior stepless dozer Grinder. These I've had from the beginning.
I do think that what Shaun says about always getting better and acquiring more knowledge to be true. I don't know however that in this little time period I improved that much. The only area that I am frustrated with at this time is the steaming. Both the Carezza and the Precisia produced great micro foam. The Precisia did it in less than half the time. I did notice that they both have a single hole steam tip so I've put in an order with Wholelattelove for a 1 hole Expobar steam tip to see if this will solve the riddle. The espresso's now are so good that my wife and I seem to be exclusively drinking just them. I am not getting a chance to steam anymore because of this. Once the 1 hole steam tip comes I will resume my persuit of fine micro foam on the Tea ll.
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Now that desirable part may not be understood or even desired so much in the beginning as the palate adjusts to the newer bigger, better, faster race car-ish machine; perhaps more intensity, flavors, smells may be a bit off-putting initially but in time it may be recognized as an improvement - maybe. And that's the beauty of espresso, upgrades aren't always upgrades, spending lots of cash doesn't guarantee phenomenal espresso and commercial machines aren't the end-state. Maybe I like the tinkle of pennies in a lunch box but find the sizzle of a Top Hat to be distracting. In a year that might be reversed as I learn to drum, in the end it doesn't matter. A happy espresso dude is a happy espresso dude.
Oh, I totally agree.
I guess the only reason I continue to type paragraphs on this matter is because I believe there are some important subtleties to this discussion, I've tried to bring some of that forth, hopefully there's enough here for contemplation.
Once again, I'm fu'd out and ducking out of here for some easier threads, like bugging Joe about latte art. ;-)
Shaun, your fu even in its weakened state is still very powerful. Just one point on those subtleties you mention: you seem to take for a given that flat brew temps are more desirable than other profiles, like say a humped profile like Faema and all of their engineers have championed for over forty years, and maybe 30 years before Schomer came along. I would respectfully call you out and demand proof for your (assumed) assertion that they have been wrong for all these years, but as Joe hinted already, that is a subject for another thread!
:D
Best,
Paul
Mmmmm, I'm not sure I said anywhere that a flat brew temp is the way to go (though it may be but I don't really have enough comparative experience in lab head to head fashion to even begin to intelligently guess) but something I must have said made you think that, sorry about that. Maybe my opinion that a shot should show good inter and intra shot stability? By that I mean from shot to shot things should be repeatedly stable (very little flux) and within the shot from start of pre-infusion to shot kill again it should be repeatedly stable.
Whether profile of the shot should be flat or humped has been debated, a lot, on other forums by sharper cats than I. I see the advantages to both, flat or humped, that said neither is any good if either profile is unpredictable from shot to shot. I can speak intelligently about my machine and my observation would be that it gives good inter and intra, predictable enough that subtle variable tweaks are reflected in the shot results. I enjoy espresso on many different levels and one of them is the geeky espresso side of things, my machine allows me within a certain budget to employ it as a reliable tool to test against. Looking at a different kind of machine - a budget commercial HX machine - with a wide temp band from shot to shot, employing temp-surfing requirements pre-shot with an estimation of when the temp "is right, I think" isn't my style of espresso at the moment. I am enjoying a certain style of precision (precise within the budget) but a few years ago I enjoyed the romance of the temp-surf.
And just so I don't come off like an espresso scientist with a PF in one hand and a calculator in the other, sometimes I just pull based on gut instinct. Within a month there will be times when I don't weigh, I shift up my tamp and distribution technique in a new and obscure pattern and generally throw precision out the door and just listen to the espresso a bit. I'm sure JohnF must shake his head at times. I morph my style. It usually works but I know I will pull a handful of bad shots within a month and sometimes I can't blame it on my blending, roasting or too fresh of a coffee, sometimes it's just a bad decision on a dose, the grind, poor focus or a multitude of things. Sometimes I'll pour a really nasty shot because I like pushing the envelope, it happens, but before I shut the machine off for the day I usually sort things out for the better.
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I know I will pull a handful of bad shots within a month and sometimes I can't blame it on my blending, roasting or too fresh of a coffee, sometimes it's just a bad decision on a dose, the grind, poor focus or a multitude of things.
Time to upgrade? :-\
;D
John F
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I know I will pull a handful of bad shots within a month and sometimes I can't blame it on my blending, roasting or too fresh of a coffee, sometimes it's just a bad decision on a dose, the grind, poor focus or a multitude of things.
Time to upgrade? :-\
;D
John F
Nah, I just need to find someone who likes nasty shots. ;-)
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Nah, I just need to find someone who likes nasty shots. ;-)
Let's not do anything hasty now. :-[
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Nah, I just need to find someone who likes nasty shots. ;-)
Let's not do anything hasty now. :-[
In the immortal words of a not-so-successful coffee entrepreneur "I'll just put these in the fridge for later, maybe an iced drink".
;-)
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Maybe I'm just lucky on the Tea ll but I just don't remember pulling a bad shot on it unless we are talking about the first 4 or 5 shots I ever took with it. It has a 1400 watt heating element and a 1.4 liter boiler ... boiler is small to commercial units but huge to sub $950.00 machines. This seems to keep the machine running hot. After the initial warm up of 20 minutes (manual says 15 but I want to be sure) I'm off to espresso heaven.
I'm curious Shaun ... if money was not an object ... which machine would you choose to have sitting in your abode to satisfy your espresso-fu?
:-\
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In the immortal words of a not-so-successful coffee entrepreneur "I'll just put these in the fridge for later, maybe an iced drink".
Absolutely Priceless.
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I'm curious Shaun ... if money was not an object ... which machine would you choose to have sitting in your abode to satisfy your espresso-fu?
:-\
I'd let other's help me decide. You will have to read the comments section for clues.
http://www.jimseven.com/2008/01/13/wbc-machine-testing-temperature-testing/
An interesting question to stew over but in my case not very realistic. Between photography, racing bikes and espresso all acting as competing hobbies, there is a constant tug in each direction for my paltry disposable income and that's why this kind of question is pretty far from reality for the likes of me. That's why I remain content with my BII, a Macap, my Hottop, some mediocre skilzz and good beans. There is no new espresso toy on my horizon.
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If money was no object for me I guess it would be the Chef's job to hire the Barista so whatever machine he/she had would be good enough for me....or else the chef would have to find a new Barista. :-\
John F
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I'd let other's help me decide. You will have to read the comments section for clues.
[url]http://www.jimseven.com/2008/01/13/wbc-machine-testing-temperature-testing/[/url]
An interesting question to stew over but in my case not very realistic. Between photography, racing bikes and espresso all acting as competing hobbies, there is a constant tug in each direction for my paltry disposable income and that's why this kind of question is pretty far from reality for the likes of me. That's why I remain content with my BII, a Macap, my Hottop, some mediocre skilzz and good beans. There is no new espresso toy on my horizon.
Ok ... so I'll never replace Sherlock Holmes ... I read and I read but I found no clues other than the 6 3 group machines that they mentioned. You'd get one of those babies?
:drunken_smilie:
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I'm coming into the discussion a little late, and I'm not sure if I have any fu, except maybe fubar, but here goes...
Even though some of the discussions of guitars made my eyes glaze over ::) I get the point. The quality of espresso isn't solely dependent on one factor. Changes in any of the various influencing factors can impact the result. So... Given consistency in coffee (yeah, that;s not always true), the grinder and the barista, an improvement in the machine should produce an improvement in the end product. I'm not knowledgeable enough in the intricacies of espresso machines to back that up technically, but I can show the effect of the machine anecdotally.
When I purchased my Alex I had my Millennium laying around for a couple of weeks. When the gentleman who ended up buying the Millennium was here looking at it I had it fired up and we were pulling shots so he could get a feel for the machine. He asked if he could try a shot from the Alex, which was also fired up, so we tried some and we both noticed the difference in the shots from the Alex. The beans, grinder and barista were the same, just the machine differed and the shots from the Alex were noticeably better. They had a more complex flavor profile and better mouthfeel.
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I'm coming into the discussion a little late, and I'm not sure if I have any fu, except maybe fubar, but here goes...
Even though some of the discussions of guitars made my eyes glaze over ::) I get the point. The quality of espresso isn't solely dependent on one factor. Changes in any of the various influencing factors can impact the result. So... Given consistency in coffee (yeah, that;s not always true), the grinder and the barista, an improvement in the machine should produce an improvement in the end product. I'm not knowledgeable enough in the intricacies of espresso machines to back that up technically, but I can show the effect of the machine anecdotally.
When I purchased my Alex I had my Millennium laying around for a couple of weeks. When the gentleman who ended up buying the Millennium was here looking at it I had it fired up and we were pulling shots so he could get a feel for the machine. He asked if he could try a shot from the Alex, which was also fired up, so we tried some and we both noticed the difference in the shots from the Alex. The beans, grinder and barista were the same, just the machine differed and the shots from the Alex were noticeably better. They had a more complex flavor profile and better mouthfeel.
I hear you Ron ... I had the same experience.
;D
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When the gentleman who ended up buying the Millennium was here looking at it I had it fired up and we were pulling shots so he could get a feel for the machine. He asked if he could try a shot from the Alex, which was also fired up, so we tried some and we both noticed the difference in the shots from the Alex. The beans, grinder and barista were the same, just the machine differed and the shots from the Alex were noticeably better.
Different from the other cases in this thread in a major way.
In the first:
A few days later I took the remainder of the blend over to B|Java's and after repeated attempts, could not get anything worth drinking.
[/i]
Coffee much different
Water different
Different preps
All in all not possible to call it a direct comparison to the machines.
In the other case MP months are going by....lots of stuff is changing.
At least in this case things are contained into the same environment.... The shots were better from the Alex. Without looking at any stats and never having had one of Ron L's shots if I had to buy one of these machines on the spot I'd pick the Alex.
My guess is that it is a better machine. ;)
John F
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Coffee much different
Water different
Different preps
All in all not possible to call it a direct comparison to the machines.
In the other case MP months are going by....lots of stuff is changing.
At least in this case things are contained into the same environment.... The shots were better from the Alex. Without looking at any stats and never having had one of Ron L's shots if I had to buy one of these machines on the spot I'd pick the Alex.
My guess is that it is a better machine. ;)
John F
Come on ... how can we possibly come to that conclusion???
;D
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Come on ... how can we possibly come to that conclusion???
What conclusion?
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My guess is that it is a better machine. ;)
John F
This conclusion.
;)
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Finally... Conclusion! ;-)
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Finally... Conclusion! ;-)
Yeaaahhhh ... a conclusion .... yeahhhhh!
:occasion14:
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Hold up....I didn't conclude anything I said I was guessing. ;D
John F
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Booo ... no conclusion .... booo.
:protest:
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Hold up....I didn't conclude anything I said I was guessing. ;D
John F
Did you guess French Toast, or was it really French Toast?
;-)
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Did you guess French Toast, or was it really French Toast?
;-)
[/quote]
Apples and oranges brother...it WAS French Toast and that is confirmed.
Background to explain the above:
Staylor pulled a shot this am and poured 2oz of raw cream into it for a breve +.
It was a total French Toast bomb. Buttery, syrup, even bread and egg... :o French toast luxury cloud espresso in a 4oz cup.
Now that is confirmed, locked down, and for 100% freaky real.
The machine thing is a guess but it is based on much better conditions that the other examples in this thread.
Meanwhile I bet nobody else here had a 4oz raw cream breve French toast bomb today so take this. :pottytrain2:
;D ;D
John F
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Meanwhile I bet nobody else here had a 4oz raw cream breve French toast bomb today so take this. :pottytrain2:
;D ;D
John F
No ... but it does sound like it is worth trying. Even though it might have set you back a little on your weight loss. I can't try it today any way ... I am fasting.
:glasses9:
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:pottytrain2:
I think that emoticon needs to see a doctor.
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:pottytrain2:
I think that emoticon needs to see a doctor.
;D
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Meanwhile I bet nobody else here had a 4oz raw cream breve French toast bomb today so take this. :pottytrain2:
;D ;D
John F
No ... but it does sound like it is worth trying. Even though it might have set you back a little on your weight loss. I can't try it today any way ... I am fasting.
:glasses9:
Not a chance but I see how it might look that way.
I actually needed those calories going into that block of time.
John F
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Not a chance but I see how it might look that way.
I actually needed those calories going into that block of time.
John F
Hey John ... you should look into Coconut oil ... it will give you some calories as well as burn off fat. Check it out!
;D
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Hey John ... you should look into Coconut oil ... it will give you some calories as well as burn off fat. Check it out!
For real?
The only oil I use right now is Extra Virgin Olive oil.
I thought all the other oils like coconut, palm, and so on were less desirable but I'll check it out.
John F
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Hey John ... you should look into Coconut oil ... it will give you some calories as well as burn off fat. Check it out!
For real?
The only oil I use right now is Extra Virgin Olive oil.
I thought all the other oils like coconut, palm, and so on were less desirable but I'll check it out.
John F
Yes absolutely ... for real ... Palm and Coconut are mid chain fats. Coconut is anti viral, anti microbal and anti fungal. It is absolutely the best oil to fry with as no transfatty acids. It has a unique structure (as does the Palm oil) that does not break down under extreme high heat such as the other oils do. Coconut oil and Palm oil were used all the time for cooking ... the only reason why that stopped is because the Japanese cut off the Philippines to the US and so the US (using great American enginuity) starting the propaganda that the only good oils to use were vegetable oils. You see they invented the poly saturated fat phenomenon. Eating a raw coconut will not only help you lose weight ... it will also help your digestion. I don't know if you like Curry ... but in Florida last year we went to a Chinese food restaurant and I had this vegetable curry dish that was cooked in coconut milk ... the best curry dish I had anywhere. It was awesome.
Coconut is an amazing food!
Ciao
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I agree with your order of importance except you've added water to the 4M's, and placed it last. I'd place it equal to or 2nd to the bean.
That said IMO my very best shots with Silvia (with us 3&1/2yrs) are matched on a ho-hum regular basis with rotary Bricoletta and Bricoletta's best never attained with Silvia. And Bricoletta's best shots more repeatably attained on my PID'd Linea...
Grinder grinder grinder can't be over emphasised AND replace burrs regulary to keep 'em sharp! For instance with a decent entry level for espresso Rocky every 75# or so grinding for 'spro. No espresso machine comparison is really valid unless coffee the same, water the same and grinder the same including same burr wear state.
Agreed Mike ... all things being equal ... if a higher class machine is acquired to make espresso then the espresso will be much better. PID'ing an HX machine will yield better repeatability due to more stable temperature control.
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That said IMO my very best shots with Silvia (with us 3&1/2yrs) are matched on a ho-hum regular basis with rotary Bricoletta and Bricoletta's best never attained with Silvia. And Bricoletta's best shots more repeatably attained on my PID'd Linea...
Stands to reason. ;)
My issue is in this sort of general area.....
What machine pulls the best shots with 3 week old previously frozen coffee?
Does HX or PID make the most difference/ better shot with the above coffee?
:-\
See what I'm sayin?
John F
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I don't know if you like Curry ...
Try to stick your hand between my fork and some Panang curry and you will find out. ;D ;D
John F
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What machine pulls the best shots with 3 week old previously frozen coffee?
Does HX or PID make the most difference/ better shot with the above coffee?
Just a wild guess but I bet an HX will make a better pull with 3 week old previously frozen coffee than will the Sylvia. Adding a PID will just make the HX more consistent at pulling very good shots.
Elementary my dear Watson.
:wave:
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Just a wild guess but I bet an HX will make a better pull with 3 week old previously frozen coffee than will the Sylvia. Adding a PID will just make the HX more consistent at pulling very good shots.
Yeah, I have considered this logic....it has swayed me and I now concede the point.
More expensive machines make better shots when all other things are equal.
John F
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Yeah, I have considered this logic....it has swayed me and I now concede the point.
More expensive machines make better shots when all other things are equal.
John F
YYYYYaaaaYYYYYY! Welcome to the HX side John (or > $1000.00 machines).
:icon_salut:
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YYYYYaaaaYYYYYY! Welcome to the HX side John (or > $1000.00 machines).
Well it's more complicated than that but the short answer is I might have a $2K machine someday but I'm pretty sure it's not going to be HX. I will get better results from it on a more constant basis because it will be more capable than what I have now. The key part being that I am able to get the maximum potential out of what I have now so the machine is actually the limiting factor for me at this point.
Over the last few months I've come to realize we are all on totally different coffee and espresso journeys and as such our ideas of something like "better shot" are perhaps light years away from each other.
I've now got serious doubts that the majority of conversations like this one mean anything at all because we are most certainly not even talking about the same things. :-\
So...the point I have been trying to make is irrelevant. The baseline does not matter because I am starting to believe I now believe the baseline does not exist. This really isn't a rant but my realization that I should not be having these types of conversations anymore because of the above.
John F
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Nice post John,
Well it's more complicated than that but the short answer is I might have a $2K machine someday but I'm pretty sure it's not going to be HX. I will get better results from it on a more constant basis because it will be more capable than what I have now. The key part being that I am able to get the maximum potential out of what I have now so the machine is actually the limiting factor for me at this point.
I would just add that, at least given my own experiences, it is possible to have more than one limiting factor at a time. I realized this almost immediately when I first started pulling on my ridiculous FAEMA. I wasn't doing anything better, and my technique was not perfect (and is still far from it) but the improvement was significant and (almost) immediate.
Over the last few months I've come to realize we are all on totally different coffee and espresso journeys and as such our ideas of something like "better shot" are perhaps light years away from each other.
I've now got serious doubts that the majority of conversations like this one mean anything at all because we are most certainly not even talking about the same things. :-\
That's a great way to put it. If we don't share the same vocabulary it is impossible to communicate. An ancient problem, but one that I agree is particularly relevant here. I imagine that if we were all in the same room, with the same roasts, and the same machines, we would all actually agree a whole lot more than we seem to online, from great distances, working only from our own private experiences.
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I imagine that if we were all in the same room, with the same roasts, and the same machines, we would all actually agree a whole lot more than we seem to online...
I have become somewhat afraid of finding out if that is true or not. :-\
John F
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Oh, don't be! I think that is the single most serious fault of online forums like this one, about which we can't do anything, and even given the ridiculous amount of "mystique" that has been superimposed over making decent espresso, on this forum and others, I think it is all basically surmountable with a few face to face experiences.
Just my $.02 of course....
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I have become somewhat afraid of finding out if that is true or not. :-\
John F
LMAO ... thanks for the gut wrenching laugh John!
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Oh, don't be! I think that is the single most serious fault of online forums like this one, about which we can't do anything, and even given the ridiculous amount of "mystique" that has been superimposed over making decent espresso, on this forum and others, I think it is all basically surmountable with a few face to face experiences.
Just my $.02 of course....
I think that would be the best leveler. Everyone is tasting the same bean, roasted the same way, done on the same machine, maid by the same Barista, with the same water, at the same atmospheric temperature and humidity, ground on the same grinder. You may get some subjective differences in opinion ... but I bet if you have 20 guys there probably 15 out of the twenty would agree whole heartedly on the grading.
And that is my 2 cents worth.
:icon_thumleft:
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LMAO ... thanks for the gut wrenching laugh John!
You are totally welcome.
John F
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Just walked through the front door 45mins ago (and went straight to the espresso machine power button), John thoughtfully put fresh milk in the fridge so I'm about to pour a four ouncer. Hopefully it will be an outrageously good cup o' mystique. ;-)
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Hopefully it will be an outrageously good cup o' mystique. ;-)
Just stay out of that drip blend... :-X
John F
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Noted. ;-)