Green Coffee Buying Club
Coffee Discussion boards => Hardware & Equipment => Topic started by: J.Jirehs Roaster on April 16, 2008, 08:54:06 AM
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I have become the Roast Guru for a local coffee shop. (HELP) And they have a tiny start up budget and a Sonofresco roaster. I suspect most of the bigger roasters on this forum will think I am a little nuts but I want to get a FreshRoast 8 or IRoast 2 as a sample roaster. the FreshRoast is closest in simple technology to the Sonofresco and with the IRoast I can program the roast curve, but its reportedly very load and hard to hear the beans. I think the FreshRoast is good batch size since I can get 1lb (actually 1 Sonofresco batch) size samples from our supplier and the smaller the batch I roast the more test roasts I can do.
In summery, Do I spend $100 more on an Iroast or save that $100 for building a personal exotic bean stash?
Unrelated note: can any one tell me the dimensions for the Behmor drum?
Tahnks ;D
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What's the smallest batch the Sonefresco will do?
Also, since I've never seen the Sonefresco in action, is there any way to pull a scoop of beans out during the roast? I've done that w/ my SC/TO to get a few samples at different roast levels from one roast.
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I have a sonofresco and I have roasted 1/2 lb... but it's difficult to do because of where the tempurature sensor is and with fewer beans more hot air gets to the sensor. I've had mine for a 1 1/2 years and am happy with it, although as a roasting business, you are going to be real busy.
I also use a temp probe (thermocouple) I drop down in the beans to measure bean temp. then manually turn off the burner when I get to the level I want. I get pretty consistant results that way.
Joe also uses a sonofresco and uses an air popper with PID control for his sample roaster... He may be able to tell you more...
http://www.greencoffeebuyingclub.com/index.php?topic=3393.45
other ideas for you also in the show off your roaster thread.
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My personal opinion FWIW:
The iRoast is a waste of money. It is not very durable.
The Fresh Roast 8 is useful if you have the ability to modify it and you also have a Variac. You can roast a 65g sample and control the profile that way. Unmodified, a FR+8 roasts too fast, but you can extend the roast time to 9-12 minutes with a variac. The main problem is that you really need to cool the thing down between batches. That seems to be the best way to do really small batches. I have 2 of them (used to have 4 but gave a couple away) which allows me to switch back and forth. I can roast 5 samples an hour easily using two of them. This comes in handy when I have 15-30 samples for an auction, and I am left with plenty of beans to go back and reroast darker or lighter on the ones that are really interesting or questionable.
Another method I have used in the past is a TurboCrazy, and I will quickly scoop out beans as the roast progresses (kind of a PITA). I have a bent metal spatula so that I can quickly scoop out 75g of beans an leave the thing running. It is pretty simple to get three roast levels out of an 8oz batch that way, and still have 8oz out of a 1# sample to try a different ramp. I wouldn't recommend roasting less than 8oz, though.
A good popper is an excellent method for small samples as well. If you can get a Poppery I you are golden.
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Also, since I've never seen the Sonefresco in action, is there any way to pull a scoop of beans out during the roast?
I guess you can reduce the batch size but that will give a different roast in the same time setting, and no there is no way to pull a sample with out chaff flying all over the room.
I also use a temp probe (thermocouple) I drop down in the beans to measure bean temp. then manually turn off the burner when I get to the level I want. I get pretty consistant results that way.
I will probably get to that point but I am the volunteer (payed in beans) Master (of disaster) Roaster and hopfully my full time construction work is going to get busy and I need to have roasts that the average teen behind the counter can do if we are going to roast enough beans for this thing to pay for itself :-\
The iRoast is a waste of money. It is not very durable.
The Fresh Roast 8 is useful if you have the ability to modify it and you also have a Variac.
That is were I am leaning but I don't want to have to fuss with the technology, not that I don't want to >:D I just know that is an expensive road and I am too strapped for $. I really want a drum roaster, thinking the Behmer fine mesh drum can be fitted into a commercial toaster oven with rotisserie that I have that will do till I win the lotto and buy a real roaster LOL or just get a Behmer and then I already have the drum for the peaberry. Meanwhile the Sonofresco is a good fit for this shop and I want to try and do right by them
Thanks for your input
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I used to use an I-Roast 2 for my sample roaster. It got me by, but it has it's quirks, as I'm sure you are aware. I have been using a Behmor as my sample roaster for the past couple of months and I am really happy with it so far.
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I have been using a Behmor as my sample roaster for the past couple of months and I am really happy with it so far.
the roast from a drum is different flavor? I think ? Than the fluid beds ?
to through in another quirk.. is the Nesco (Zack and Danie's) more fluid bed or more contact tasting or too little to tell?
I have tried the popcorn thing in the past but with poor results, liked the cast iron skillet better. I will go check out the Salvation Army and see if I can get a Poppery II
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What's the smallest batch the Sonefresco will do?
Also, since I've never seen the Sonefresco in action, is there any way to pull a scoop of beans out during the roast? I've done that w/ my SC/TO to get a few samples at different roast levels from one roast.
Hey Peter,
One of the many benefits of the Sonofresco is the ability to watch the entire roast progress with having to take samples out. It is roasted in a Pyrex tube chamber that is completely visible during the entire roast.
J.Jirehs,
You should just PID a poppery I for a sample roaster or spend the money for a legitimate sample roaster. A legitimate sample roaster will run you about the same as the Sonofresco.
Joe
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...the roast from a drum is different flavor? I think ? Than the fluid beds?..
In general, fluid bed roasters will accentuate the brightness/acidity & diminish the body in a coffee. A drum roaster will do the opposite, mute some of the acidity and increase the body of a bean. Of course, this is a generalization - there are always exceptions to the rule.
..to through in another quirk.. is the Nesco (Zack and Danie's) more fluid bed or more contact tasting or too little to tell?...
I've never roasted on a Nesco, but I've heard it's a little bit of both. It is characterized as a fluid bed roaster, but the auger that agitates the beans, gives them more body, like a drum roaster.
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What's the smallest batch the Sonefresco will do?
Also, since I've never seen the Sonefresco in action, is there any way to pull a scoop of beans out during the roast? I've done that w/ my SC/TO to get a few samples at different roast levels from one roast.
Hey Peter,
One of the many benefits of the Sonofresco is the ability to watch the entire roast progress with having to take samples out. It is roasted in a Pyrex tube chamber that is completely visible during the entire roast.
Yeah, I can dig that. Being able to visibly confirm what the temp gauge is reading is cool.
What I thought the OP was asking for was a way to get multiple roasts out of a 1 lb. sample, and thought if he could pull some out as the roast progresses he wouldn't have to do multiple roasts at different levels. But, he's already answered that...
When I grow up I want to have a Sonefresco.
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What's the smallest batch the Sonefresco will do?
Also, since I've never seen the Sonefresco in action, is there any way to pull a scoop of beans out during the roast? I've done that w/ my SC/TO to get a few samples at different roast levels from one roast.
Hey Peter,
One of the many benefits of the Sonofresco is the ability to watch the entire roast progress with having to take samples out. It is roasted in a Pyrex tube chamber that is completely visible during the entire roast.
Yeah, I can dig that. Being able to visibly confirm what the temp gauge is reading is cool.
What I thought the OP was asking for was a way to get multiple roasts out of a 1 lb. sample, and thought if he could pull some out as the roast progresses he wouldn't have to do multiple roasts at different levels. But, he's already answered that...
When I grow up I want to have a Sonefresco.
Well,
There is one area that could have been improved. With all of the geeky stuff that is on the internals of the Sonofresco, If I was King it would've had a temp readout. It does have profile settings that are explained in their literature and some people have supposedly hacked the presets. But other than a led dot on the read out indicating when the burners are on, there is no temp readout. If I was brave I would hack in a digital readout of the temp from the thermocouple just to see what the profile was doing. I will say this if it is cleaned and maintained it as consistant as it gets. There is no way to make one lb roast three samples by pulling the amount you need at different points, however I am wondering if that is a good idea on any setup, I would bet that it would effect the conductive heat properties of the roast everytime you remove a chunk of the mass, in a fluid bed it would increase airflow and heat loss. Sounds like your having some success with it so I must be imagining it wrong. If you want a Sonofresco but don't mind the smaller loads I highly recommend PID'ing a 1400w popcorn Pumper or 1500w Poppery I, with a freshroast+8 chamber and chaff collector, other than it is extremely smaller and uses electric heat, it is very similar.
Joe
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Well,
There is one area that could have been improved. With all of the geeky stuff that is on the internals of the Sonofresco, If I was King it would've had a temp readout. It does have profile settings that are explained in their literature and some people have supposedly hacked the presets. But other than a led dot on the read out indicating when the burners are on, there is no temp readout. If I was brave I would hack in a digital readout of the temp from the thermocouple just to see what the profile was doing. I will say this if it is cleaned and maintained it as consistant as it gets.
Joe
Joe
Mine reads out the temp ;D But it's not bean temp. so that's why I use a seperate thermocouple.
Here is how from the manual: (attached)
Temperature Measurement: The temperature measurement is the real time
temperature of the exhaust at the moment it is viewed during the roasting process.
? During an active roast, simultaneously push and hold both the up and
down arrows to display the temperature. Note: If the up and down arrow
buttons are continuously held down, the temperature on the display
rises as the actual bean temperature rises.
If I were King, it make it so I could change the ramp profile.
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What's the smallest batch the Sonefresco will do?
Also, since I've never seen the Sonefresco in action, is there any way to pull a scoop of beans out during the roast? I've done that w/ my SC/TO to get a few samples at different roast levels from one roast.
Hey Peter,
One of the many benefits of the Sonofresco is the ability to watch the entire roast progress with having to take samples out. It is roasted in a Pyrex tube chamber that is completely visible during the entire roast.
J.Jirehs,
You should just PID a poppery I for a sample roaster or spend the money for a legitimate sample roaster. A legitimate sample roaster will run you about the same as the Sonofresco.
Joe
Hey that sounds like a group buy 8) My dad buy his equipment from Pinhalense and at one time he quoted me a 3 barrel sample roaster for about $1700. He told me that was my price since my family was buying equipment from them...
Something like this (but not so fancy)...
http://www.pinhalense.com.br/equip-i-tc0.htm
Monito
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Well,
There is one area that could have been improved. With all of the geeky stuff that is on the internals of the Sonofresco, If I was King it would've had a temp readout. It does have profile settings that are explained in their literature and some people have supposedly hacked the presets. But other than a led dot on the read out indicating when the burners are on, there is no temp readout. If I was brave I would hack in a digital readout of the temp from the thermocouple just to see what the profile was doing. I will say this if it is cleaned and maintained it as consistant as it gets. There is no way to make one lb roast three samples by pulling the amount you need at different points, however I am wondering if that is a good idea on any setup, I would bet that it would effect the conductive heat properties of the roast everytime you remove a chunk of the mass, in a fluid bed it would increase airflow and heat loss. Sounds like your having some success with it so I must be imagining it wrong. If you want a Sonofresco but don't mind the smaller loads I highly recommend PID'ing a 1400w popcorn Pumper or 1500w Poppery I, with a freshroast+8 chamber and chaff collector, other than it is extremely smaller and uses electric heat, it is very similar.
Joe
Joe ... PID'ing a Poppery sounds interesting. Do you have a link for the PID that you are talking about? How much does it cost?
Thanks
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I new the danger of asking this question on a site like this but I asked any way....
Now I am asking around for neglected and dejected hot air poppers, considering bypassing the thermostat on the cheap one I have, trying to get my geeky teen interested in playing with a PID and digging out that old NESCO rotisserie oven to see if it will get up to 500 deg F
Hey that sounds like a group buy 8) My dad buy his equipment from Pinhalense and at one time he quoted me a 3 barrel sample roaster for about $1700. He told me that was my price since my family was buying equipment from them...
Something like this (but not so fancy)...
[url]http://www.pinhalense.com.br/equip-i-tc0.htm[/url]
Monito
Monito, thats the kind of deal I would love to be rich enough to get in on.. bet that it is bear bones good old seat of the pants coffee roasting.
Joe.. sadly I cant even put a probe in the roast chamber, I don't want to monkey around with a rented roaster. as far as popcorn poppers, is the PID absolutely necessary to get an idea of what a roast will be like in the Sonofresco? I understand I can emulate the roast profile more accurately but if I separate the heat and the blower so I can roast and cool like the Sonofresco will I get a fairly accurate sample roasts with out a PID and/or variac?
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I'm still kicking myself for not picking up one of those used Jabez-Burns sample roasters Tom had on SM's a couple of years ago. In reality, it would probably be very easy to fabricate one or something similar.
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I'm still kicking myself for not picking up one of those used Jabez-Burns sample roasters Tom had on SM's a couple of years ago. In reality, it would probably be very easy to fabricate one or something similar.
Funny, you say that...I told my dad to make one just like the one SCAP has at their office in Panama.
He sounded interested...let see what he does.
Monito
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I'm still kicking myself for not picking up one of those used Jabez-Burns sample roasters Tom had on SM's a couple of years ago. In reality, it would probably be very easy to fabricate one or something similar.
Funny, you say that...I told my dad to make one just like the one SCAP has at their office in Panama.
He sounded interested...let see what he does.
Monito
Two for me please.
Where do I send the paypal?
;D
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I'm still kicking myself for not picking up one of those used Jabez-Burns sample roasters Tom had on SM's a couple of years ago. In reality, it would probably be very easy to fabricate one or something similar.
Funny, you say that...I told my dad to make one just like the one SCAP has at their office in Panama.
He sounded interested...let see what he does.
Monito
Monito
If he makes an extra, I'm interested!
Curtis
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You will be the first ones to know if my dad makes the 2 or 3 barrel sample roaster.
Monito
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I'm still kicking myself for not picking up one of those used Jabez-Burns sample roasters Tom had on SM's a couple of years ago. In reality, it would probably be very easy to fabricate one or something similar.
The few times I've seen a sample roaster such as the Jabez-Burns in action, it didn't seem that there was much in the way of control. Aren't they simply meant to apply heat at a steady rate until 1st crack happens and finishes, and then dump? They should be very repeatable roasts, but from what I saw they don't lend themselves to any profiling. So for multiple samples, they would fit the bill. But for someone wanting to control the roast, they would be less than ideal. Close to accurate?
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There was a really good thread on Home-Barista a while back, where Ken Fox spelled out some of the major hurdles to overcome during home roasting. Here's the link: http://www.home-barista.com/forums/hopefully-useful-home-roasting-tips-t5316.html I'm sure the majority of people in the industry using those roasters as they are made do just exactly as you say, Peter- they roast only for cupping.
Ken modified his Jabez-Burns knockoff so that he could profile, and it's sorta the model I went with when I was searching for a roaster to by. The main thing to consider in those roasters is what quality burner you buy/install, and getting proper airflow, as they tend to suffer specifically in that area according to Dan Joliff from US Roasters. Dan suggested that all you need to do is drill enough holes in the back to effectively double their numbers. The rest is about monitoring equipment- thermocouples and dataloggers. You just gotta pick what suits your needs/wallet best.
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There was a really good thread on Home-Barista a while back, where Ken Fox spelled out some of the major hurdles to overcome during home roasting. Here's the link: [url]http://www.home-barista.com/forums/hopefully-useful-home-roasting-tips-t5316.html [/url] I'm sure the majority of people in the industry using those roasters as they are made do just exactly as you say, Peter- they roast only for cupping.
Ken modified his Jabez-Burns knockoff so that he could profile, and it's sorta the model I went with when I was searching for a roaster to by. The main thing to consider in those roasters is what quality burner you buy/install, and getting proper airflow, as they tend to suffer specifically in that area according to Dan Joliff from US Roasters. Dan suggested that all you need to do is drill enough holes in the back to effectively double their numbers. The rest is about monitoring equipment- thermocouples and dataloggers. You just gotta pick what suits your needs/wallet best.
That is a really great post - I should probably spend more time on that site.
The thing that I see with the J-B roaster is the basic hardware infrastructure. Simple, durable, rugged. I would undoubtedly not stop until I had full control of the profile, though. This is a great slab of marble waiting to be chiseled.
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That is a really great post - I should probably spend more time on that site.
The thing that I see with the J-B roaster is the basic hardware infrastructure. Simple, durable, rugged. I would undoubtedly not stop until I had full control of the profile, though. This is a great slab of marble waiting to be chiseled.
That's exactly what I thought- simple (so I can't screw it up too much), durable, rugged (ie. bomb-proof). I think Ken bought his used from Dan, but did the mods, including a kitchen vent in his garage-- total cost was around $4,000. I was just about to plunk down about half that on a Pinhalense J-B roaster from Brazil, then chickened out due to all of the uncertainties on what I wanted after I was done modding it and having to deal with someone overseas for parts (although they do sell single phase motors and all the electronic do-dads to make it US-friendly, including a "spare parts bag"). Dan's sample roaster costs about $4,000, then you add an additional thermocouple and datalogger (around $500 more for the TC-08 from Picotech). For me, it's perfect. 1/2-1 lb batches, which I know for most of you guys, isn't enough. I roast so many different beans (usually 3-4 in one session) and blend post-roast, so any bigger would be more hassle. This thing weighs around 80 lbs, sits on a cart in my garage, and I just wheel it out when I want to use it. It's definitely expensive, but is so well made (by fine folks in Ok City, no less) that it should last forever... hopefully!
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That is a really great post - I should probably spend more time on that site.
The thing that I see with the J-B roaster is the basic hardware infrastructure. Simple, durable, rugged. I would undoubtedly not stop until I had full control of the profile, though. This is a great slab of marble waiting to be chiseled.
That's exactly what I thought- simple (so I can't screw it up too much), durable, rugged (ie. bomb-proof). I think Ken bought his used from Dan, but did the mods, including a kitchen vent in his garage-- total cost was around $4,000. I was just about to plunk down about half that on a Pinhalense J-B roaster from Brazil, then chickened out due to all of the uncertainties on what I wanted after I was done modding it. Dan's sample roaster costs about $4,000, then you add an additional thermocouple and datalogger (around $500 more for the TC-08 from Picotech). For me, it's perfect. 1/2-1 lb batches, which I know for most of you guys, isn't enough. I roast so many different beans (usually 3-4 in one session) and blend post-roast, so any bigger would be more hassle. This thing weighs around 80 lbs, sits on a cart in my garage, and I just wheel it out when I want to use it.
For the thermocouple and datalogging, you can get a beater laptop and nearly any digital thermometer with an RS232 port. Install Linux as the OS and you can actually use Open Office spreadsheet as your logging program and you have paid zero for software. I bought a $30 digital thermometer on eBay that works great for this - the disc that came with it has a simple logging program that creates a text document that can be set up for any spreadsheet program.
The real advantage I see is back-to-back roasting.
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Ok so I counted all the coins in my piggy bank and looked under the couch cushions and came up with my sample roasting method. One that ties in with my love of pottery no less :D
I think I found third crack :o
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Sorry, I will make my pictures smaller next time I post any :-[
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That looks cool- what the heck is it?? I can see the beans in there, but it looks more like art than a roaster ???
I do not have the computer or electronics know-how to rig a datalogger. I read practically everything out there on the subject, and at first decided to buy the Omega (figuring it was cheap, and I might save a little money). All the while this little voice in the back of my head was saying, "this might not work out...". Got it, installed the J-type thermocouple, and could never get the thing to launch properly. I sent it back for a refund, and just bought the Pico-tech model (same cost as the fluke + software, but you can see the roast progression in real time). Now that little voice in my head is my fathers-- "a fool and his money..." :-[
It's ok- ya can't take it with you!
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That looks cool- what the heck is it?? I can see the beans in there, but it looks more like art than a roaster ???
Its Raku Pottery. Some potters put organic material in the pottery when they fire it and the minerals in the organics bring color to the glaze, I thought I would try green coffee beans. I think I got a little blue color in the glaze but tests are inconclusive.
This pic is not as good but you can see the flame coming out of the top of the kiln. the other pics were of some coffee roasting at that vent on top and then of the coffee in the kiln at around ?? 1000 F. (there was nothing left to brew so sadly there will be no cupping review) :-[
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ahahahaaaaaa! That's great- flash roasting!
I wonder if different varietals would produce different colors based on mineral content??
That's cool-- even beats a friends try at home roasting using a readily available appliance-
http://www.home-barista.com/forums/ultimate-home-roaster-project-t3718.html
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Ok... I have a sample roaster going, slowly learning how to control the roast, but not yet matching the sonafresca I suppose.