Able KONE

[Jeffo]

We use seventh generation fragrance free soap to wash them. I LOVE that soap. I use it for all my dishes at home also. It cleans really well drys perfect and leaves no sent or taste. I would recommend trying it.
Keith

I'd probably use sixth generation because it would be cheaper and I don't always need the latest.

[John F]

The only way to slow down a SG is to clog the openings with silt/fines.

Asking a SG to work well as a pourover is asking it to do something it wasn't designed for.

I'd have to spend some time with a SG but I suspect you can control a lot with pour and not "clogging the openings with silt".

Aside from that think about a grain bed in brewing beer. It's not necessarily silt or fines that can produce a filtering media bed.....this may be where a careful bloom and initial pour make a significant impact...

But I'm not a SG guy and don't plan on testing it, just making some assumptions that I'd bet a few bucks on. 

[Ascholten]

Seventh Generation fragrance free soap?
YOu mean this??

Grandma's Lye Soap (It's In the Book)

If you are tasting soap when you do your next cup of coffee then do a water run.  Pour water through it only to get what ever is remaining out, then do your coffee and it should solve the problem.

Aaron

[Joe]

The only way to slow down a SG is to clog the openings with silt/fines.

Asking a SG to work well as a pourover is asking it to do something it wasn't designed for.

I'd have to spend some time with a SG but I suspect you can control a lot with pour and not "clogging the openings with silt".

Aside from that think about a grain bed in brewing beer. It's not necessarily silt or fines that can produce a filtering media bed.....this may be where a careful bloom and initial pour make a significant impact...

But I'm not a SG guy and don't plan on testing it, just making some assumptions that I'd bet a few bucks on. 

John...Word!

Peter- I haven't tested the KONE and don't plan on dropping $50 or over $50 at this point for the privilege to do so, but my friend used to say - "It's better to be looking at it than for it" and with something like flow rates I think there could be some of that involved to a point if you don't have enough flow rate you can't create it without drilling holes etc.....See technivorm mods. Looking at the KONE which is basically (according the pictures) a very similar concept to the swiss gold filters with the holes patterned for a more restricted flow rate, it looks like there is plenty of flow rate and it might be a better flow rate for the shape? who knows? I'm sure all the beta testers will let us know...so its probably a non issue.

[Joe]

Heh, heh, slid a 2nd order in.  Santa will visit the daughter in the Twin Cities, 02 Hario.  Poy-fect.

B|Java

I'm interested in your clean-up with the citrus-based detergent.  Have you noticed any residual flavor yet from the cleaner?  Normally, detergent and coffee equipment aren't used in the same sentence.  I notice with my Bodum gold filter when I use a normal soap to clean it I can rinse all day long and the next cup will still taste like the cleaner.

Also, if I find the rim to be sharp/hazardous to my delicate skin   I'm thinking about a small diameter tube of rubber or silicone, sliced down its length, then installed around the rim.  It would not only protect, but also be a good gripper.

We were thinking of a similar application of the rubber/silicone for our bar use. This will also make sure that the filter stays a true "floating" design. Good idea with the mod.

We use seventh generation fragrance free soap to wash them. I LOVE that soap. I use it for all my dishes at home also. It cleans really well drys perfect and leaves no sent or taste. I would recommend trying it.

Best regards,
Keith

I would take a fine file to the edge and point before I tried the silicone tube trick, I think the silicone if not applied with some sort of glue would simply slip off too easily. it's too bad there aren't tabs or a tab at the opening to grab. On my Boil kettle for brewing (I cut open a hole in a Keg, I have yet to fashion a functional lid from the cut out part, but it had some sharp edges that a file/wire brush took care of.

Edit: What about a stainless gasket or very large opening washer basically a flat ring slightly smaller diameter than the opening in the cone. It could be like a KONE nest

[BoldJava]

This a.m. I wanted to see how the KONE performed in the Hario as I have been using my Chemex all week with it.  

Matched it with the Hario 01 this morning.  Works.  The KONE sits on the raised ridges perfectly, with the point descending into the large open space at the base.  The arrangement takes me back to Rasqual's point that he made months ago about the Hario giving the barista the control.  I find that the KONE, more than paper, helps me on that route.  It keeps up with my pour, whether slow which is my path or more quickly. This might work against the cup if you pour too quickly, an inadvertent advantage of paper which will restrain the pour.  The KONE seems to permit you to get ahead of yourself.  I may have gotten ahead of myself on the pour this morning as the oils don't seem quite as pronounced out of the Hario arrangement than they did out of the Chemex.

One attempt in the Hario is insufficient.  I have worked with the same Guat all week to ensure consistency.  I will continue to work with the Hario (01 and 02) as well as the Cilio (04) and report back.  My preliminary conclusion is that it was my technique rather than the Hario that created a slightly less rich, less complex , less depth to the cup.  

The second thing I have noted this week is that the KONE more easily keeps the grounds "in motion," or engaged.  With paper, I find that the last 1/5 of the pour has a tendency to "puddle," where the grounds have descended below the pour and the water almost "caps" the grounds.   With the KONE, I have found that the grounds seem to engage with the pour for almost the entire pour, without the puddling effect.

This morning's cup:
Hario 01 with the KONE
21 grams medium/drip/pourover grind: 11 ounce cup
30 second bloom
1:30 pour

Very good but not as complex a cup as it was from the Chemex.  More pours pending.

B|Java

[John F]

I'm not clear on what type of cup you guys are getting.

I'm reading cleaner, brighter, more body, oils, no silt, less silt, comparisons to vac pot and french press, as well as one of Clover.

These things are contradictory.  :icon_scratch:

Is it cleaner brighter cups trending towards vac/Clover or deeper body and oil cups trending towards FP or SG/pourovers?

Obviously not exactly like one of the other preps but it must be trending towards a direction and not going off in all directions simultaneously.  

[BoldJava]

I'm not clear on what type of cup you guys are getting.

I'm reading cleaner, brighter, more body, oils, no silt, less silt, comparisons to vac pot and french press, as well as one of Clover.

These things are contradictory.  :icon_scratch:

Is it cleaner brighter cups trending towards vac/Clover or deeper body and oil cups trending towards FP or SG/pourovers?

Obviously not exactly like one of the other preps but it must be trending towards a direction and not going off in all directions simultaneously.  

Patience.  We will have a throw down some time before the holidays.  I don't see the contradiction but its clear that my words haven't presented an accurate picture for you.  

It may sound silly but maybe "you had to be there..." (have cupped it) and then the discussion is clearer? Our points of reference are different. For me:

^  Heavier than a ceramic/paper arrangement.  Oils and body are more pronounced.
^  Similar to golds but cleaner than golds (Bodum and Swiss).  Both end up with pronounced bodies and I prefer the KONE.  Looking forward to the head2head.
^  Close to a vacpot but a tad more body
^  Clean-bodied presspot (dialed back)
^  I see no difference in acidity/brightness in comparison to other preps
^  I have only has 2-3 Clovers (you might have meant Clevers?) in my life so I won't even venture a comparative guess
^  Clevers?  I defer to HC4U and the esteemed Squire on 86th Street.

Sorry John.  That is the best I can do for you.  Maybe our throwdown will help.  I can tell you it is a winner is this household and a worthy tool.

B|Java

[John F]

 I don't see the contradiction but its clear that my words haven't presented an accurate picture for you.  

I'm looking at all the data and see the contradictions there, not with your words specific.

I do see that you are equating a clean cup to mainly an issue of silt/fines and clarity of cup (if I am understanding you). But I use some other factors that make a "clean cup" for me beyond just clarity. That might be a factor here....

I'll keep reading and after some other data points it should start to focus up I suppose.  

[BoldJava]

  I don't see the contradiction but its clear that my words haven't presented an accurate picture for you. 

...

I do see that you are equating a clean cup to mainly an issue of silt/fines and clarity of cup (if I am understanding you). But I use some other factors that make a "clean cup" for me beyond just clarity. That might be a factor here....

I'll keep reading and after some other data points is should start to focus up I suppose. 

That's fair.  I am also using it to be able to taste different aspects of the coffee.  It includes how it "presents" the coffee.
B|Java

[John F]

I am also using it to be able to taste different aspects of the coffee.  It includes how it "presents" the coffee.

We could launch an entire discussion from here... 

[BoldJava]

We could launch an entire discussion from here... 

 No, we are staying on topic on the KONE! <grins>

B|Java

[BoldJava]

The KONE seems to permit you to get ahead of yourself.  I may have gotten ahead of myself on the pour this morning as the oils don't seem quite as pronounced out of the Hario arrangement than they did out of the Chemex.

I brewed a test pot to determine if my supposition that the KONE will keep up with your pour (to the point of fault) was true or not.  It will.

I took 60 grams of a Puerto Rican coffee that is only good for a "sink-pot" with 32 ounces of water.  I really pushed the pour in a Chemex set-up.  I hustled the 32 ounces through the KONE in 1:45 minutes.  No way I could move that volume of water with paper.

That is not a KONE fault.  It is one more variable the barista has at her disposal. Be attentive to your pour rate.

After "sinking" the Puerto Rican pot (taps is played here), I arranged a 42 g amount in the Hario 02 for a 22 ounce ceramic pot.  Pour was 2:40 and the Guat that I have been using all week again had better body, more oils, and better structure.

Bingo - pour matters.

B|Java

[peter]

Still waiting on my Kone...  but as far as the word 'clean' goes, I'd see two usages depending on context.  One would be the amount of silt allowed through, a physical cleanness.  Two, a cleanness that is inherent in a given coffee, whether it's a clean Costa Rica or a muddled Costa Rica.  The first 'clean' is a result of the brew method, the other 'clean' is a property of the coffee itself.

Now, it could be noted that a brew method that is 'cleaner' will allow a clean coffee to present itself as such, as opposed to a less clean brew method that allows more particulates though and the coffee presents itself less 'clean' than it really is.

Now that I've typed clean a dozen times, it strikes me as an odd word; the sound of the word doesn't describe what it means.  

[John F]

Now, it could be noted that a brew method that is 'cleaner' will allow a clean coffee to present itself as such, as opposed to a less clean brew method that allows more particulates though and the coffee presents itself less 'clean' than it really is.

That was going to be part of my eventual point....and I have some off shoots but B l thread captain wants to remain focused.