Espresso Makers 101

[jstidley]

A little over two years ago I bought my first roaster and then upgraded to a Behmor over a year ago to increase my roasting output. It has served me well and I continue to use it. Up until this point I've been focusing on roasting and didn't want to take on learning anything new, like making espresso.

I've been holding out to go right to a Silvia since before I decided to roast coffee, but there are a number of other's that would also seem to work for starter machines. Right now there seems to be a bunch of Gaggia machines going for very little (under $100) on ebay. Are the Gaggia's good machines? Are there models to stay away from? Are there other good starter machines that I should consider?

[Tex]

Difference in the boilers: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.coffee/msg/bd44e989f23bb165?hl=en
Best price on new Gaggia Classic: http://tinyurl.com/Silvia-killer
Best price on new commercial espresso grinder: http://tinyurl.com/Rocky-killer

I prefer the aluminum boiler Gaggia models over the s/s boilers in new Gaggia Espresso models (Pure, Dose, Color). A decent used Gaggia machine can be had for <$100 if you'll watch eBay & Craig's List. For more Gaggia info check out the Gaggia user's forum in my sig below.

Don't forget the grinder - the machine itself is secondary in importance to the grinder; by a factor of 2 to 1 or better.

If you're ever in the Houston area PM me & we'll arrange for you to come by & I can show you how a Gaggia works (no, I won't sell you one - these are ones I'm putting PID's on for friends).

[mp]

Yes ... Gaggia's are a great starter machine if quality espresso shots are what you seek.  They are modifiable and have upgradeable parts readily available.  You may want to check out another thread here listing a Nuova Simonelli Oscar.  This is an HX (heat exchange) machine that is actually much more capable of a Sylvia and is going for a ridiculously low price of around $150.00.  This pulls very nice shot and may do you without getting the upgradeitis disease.

But of course as always ... the final decision is up to you.

Hope that helps.

 

[jstidley]

So for a beginner a Gaggia Classic sounds like a good place to start. There are also a number of other Gaggia models like the Gaggia Espresso (or an oddball "Coffee Gaggia" that looks like a classic) that seems to be out of production but plenty of stock online. Are parts easy to come by for the older models?

The Oscar looks cheap in appearance but still is selling for a good deal of cash and gets great reviews. I guess the question about the Oscar is there anyone that is in/near Fresno that would pick it up and ship it if the seller won't?

I would really like to avoid getting upgradeitis but would also like to start off slow.

[Tex]

The Gaggia Classic pulls a shot that is identical to the more expensive Silvia. Both have 3-way valves & adjustable OPV's. Both are capable of reasonable temp stability by using temp surfing techniques, and both benefit greatly from a PID mod.

The Carezza, old-style Espresso, Evolution, & Coffee, can be upgraded by replacing the OEM water inlet with an adjustable OPV from the Classic. They really don't need a 3-way valve.

Again, let me emphasize the critical importance of a quality espresso grinder. You can make pretty good coffee with a stock $50 used Gaggia Espresso IF you have a quality espresso grinder. If you have the latest Whiz Bang G3000 espresso machine and an inadequate grinder, you'll make crappy coffee!

[Tex]

...
The Oscar looks cheap in appearance but still is selling for a good deal of cash and gets great reviews. I guess the question about the Oscar is there anyone that is in/near Fresno that would pick it up and ship it if the seller won't?

I would really like to avoid getting upgradeitis but would also like to start off slow.

The Oscar doesn't look that bad (I do prefer the black model like I had). Don't listen to anyone - you'll always have upgradeitus. Hell, last time I counted I had something like 3 commercial HX machines, a half-dozen or so Gaggia's, a La Pavoni Pro lever model, a dozen or so vac pots, and too many other odds & ends to bother counting.

The upgrade bug bites everyone - some are just better at warding it off than Milo & me.

BTW: I'm attaching some info on the Oscar.

[jstidley]

I may sound like am an in denial about upgrading, being a "computer guy" I know it isn't possible to avoid it. I just don't want to start with something that will immediately cause me to want something better.

Thanks for the information, I've really just started the search for my grinder and espresso maker. I hope to be able to make the purchase(s) in the next 30 days.

[Tex]

As a computer guy you know the problem; it's easy to buy more machine than you'll ever use. It's also easy to buy a minimalist machine that you'll outgrow in a few months.

Espresso's the same - you'll want enough machine that you can grow into, without spending money of gee-gaws that you'll never need. Welcome to my world!   :BangHead:

[shakin_jake]

I may sound like am an in denial about upgrading, being a "computer guy" I know it isn't possible to avoid it. I just don't want to start with something that will immediately cause me to want something better.

Thanks for the information, I've really just started the search for my grinder and espresso maker. I hope to be able to make the purchase(s) in the next 30 days.

~~~~Listen to Tex when he talks about buying a quality grinder.  It is gospel.  Too many people will buy a chintzy espresso grinder and wonder why their shot quality is poor.  Grind quality is everything.  Read everything you can about buying a grinder for espresso.  It truly is more important than the espresso machine.


FWIW, I bought a well worn Ranchilio MD-50 (from Tex).  it was used when Tex bought it and Tex used it for a year anyway before selling it to me (w/new burrs).  It's not real pretty (think basic coffee shop) but it's not ugly either (beauty is in the eye of the beholder).  Anyways, grind quality has never been an issue for me when pulling a shot


FWIW2, my first machine was a Gaggia Classic (PID'd by Tex).  IMO, I would recommend going with a 3 way valve equipped machine even for your first machine.  I know Tex would say it's not a deal killer *not* having a 3 way valve but, I think it's worth spending extra for as I like to keep my group clean with detergent backflushes and you can't do that on a machine that is not 3 way valve equipped.  But if you really want to start bare bones, then don't buy a 3 way valve equipped espresso machine, but do make sure you buy a quality grinder.  Buying used will be way less expensive than buying new and quite satisfactory


Probably most important, is how much you can and are willing to spend on both espresso machine and grinder.  You need to figure out your budget then go from there.  If you're not impatient, are willing to buy a used commercial grinder, you should be able to stay within $300.  Ebay and craigslist is where to shop, or maybe someone on this board has upgraditis and is selling a quality grinder


I've suffered through upgraditis with my espresso machines but not with my grinder.  I've been using the same grinder for half a dozen double shots of espresso daily for the last 16 months.  My grinder works as it should, the only reason to upgrade IMO would be for bling, yet I like the looks of the grinder I have, so it's staying on my countertop


Jake
Reddick Fla.
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who
have not got it.
- - George Bernard Shaw

[John F]

I think it all depends on what you hope to get out of the machine.

Non 3-way lower end Gaggia machines in my opinion are only good for people that are:

1) Expecting 1-2 drinks per session.
2) Are willing to work a little harder for good espresso.
3) Might consider mods if they would like to improve certain areas of shot stability.


Current top view of my Carezza BTW... 

[jstidley]

My wife would love a new espresso maker with gauges hanging out of it in our kitchen!

[John F]

My wife would love a new espresso maker with gauges hanging out of it in our kitchen!

You don't have to hack it in like me  ....you don't even have to add a gauge if you don't want it.

My case is going to disappear after the PID goes in so I don't care about it's temporary state of "under construction" as much as I cared about pulling some shots. 

I guess my point was now that I've started modding it up I'm not as inclined to recommend these Gaggia machines as I was before. For instance the difference between pulling shots at the stock pressure of these machines and dropping it down to 9 bar is staggering...totally staggering. If somebody is not going to mod the machine for things like that it would be much better to have something that is better set up to start with.

[Tex]

My wife would love a new espresso maker with gauges hanging out of it in our kitchen!

You don't have to hack it in like me  ....you don't even have to add a gauge if you don't want it.

My case is going to disappear after the PID goes in so I don't care about it's temporary state of "under construction" as much as I cared about pulling some shots.  

I guess my point was now that I've started modding it up I'm not as inclined to recommend these Gaggia machines as I was before. For instance the difference between pulling shots at the stock pressure of these machines and dropping it down to 9 bar is staggering...totally staggering. If somebody is not going to mod the machine for things like that it would be much better to have something that is better set up to start with.

Yeah, but you're not telling him the part about the 15 minute, $40 mod that does the same thing all that stuff does, without having to hack anything to pieces.  

I can't wait to see what your PID mod looks like?

[John F]

Yeah, but you're not telling him the part about the 15 minute, $40 mod that does the same thing all that stuff does, without having to hack anything to pieces.  

I can't wait to see what your PID mod looks like?

True...you can use an OPV that is made for the Gaggia machines and it will be a much cleaner installation.

To be fair to me the one I used is a substantially higher quality valve and when I'm eventually done with this thing I'll know I used the best parts. The glycerin filled gauge is the same thing.

I can tell you now the PID is going to get hatcheted in as well...it's going to look real horror show.  

But all of that will be re-cased at some point anyhow and then I will be absolved of my sins.  

When I get done it's going to be a stunner..... you'll see.

[Tex]

Yeah, but you're not telling him the part about the 15 minute, $40 mod that does the same thing all that stuff does, without having to hack anything to pieces.  

I can't wait to see what your PID mod looks like?

True...you can use an OPV that is made for the Gaggia machines and it will be a much cleaner installation.

To be fair to me the one I used is a substantially higher quality valve and when I'm eventually done with this thing I'll know I used the best parts. The glycerin filled gauge is the same thing.

I can tell you now the PID is going to get hatcheted in as well...it's going to look real horror show.  

But all of that will be re-cased at some point anyhow and then I will be absolved of my sins.  

When I get done it's going to be a stunner..... you'll see.

All done up in lacquered bamboo and hand-hammered pig iron ornamentation, it should make quite a fashion statement John!

You ought to see if milo will let you have his eagle as a finishing touch?