Green Coffee Buying Club
Coffee Discussion boards => Hardware & Equipment => Topic started by: shep on July 02, 2022, 06:57:35 AM
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I have been a member of this group for many years but have not been active for a long time. Over the past 20 years of roasting I have gone full circle from home roaster to commercial wholesaler to retired and back to roasting at home. I purchased a home in a community where roasting on the 1 kilo gas roaster I kept to play on was not going to be an acceptable practice so I sold it. I have been thinking about picking up a Bullet to avoid the gas/flame issue but I am still concerned about the amount of smoke I will expose my very close neighbors to. I realize this is not an issue for many of you, but I'm sure it is for some.
That led me to take notice of a project a local micro factory has recently developed. The group has built a ventless, indoor meat smoker that eliminates the smoke by turning it into water vapor and CO2 (safe levels). I was able to get a meeting with them this past week to discuss the possibility of using their smoke elimination technology on a small coffee roaster, such as the Bullet. The idea was received very well and they are interested in exploring the possibility. What they have asked of me is to see if I can gauge interest in such a device. That is the reason for this post.
Just a few things to be clear on:
1. I mentioned this to the Admin of this site before making this post.
2. I do not work for this company and am not selling anything. I met with them out of my own personal interest in finding a solution to a smoke concern.
3. That said, the company that I just retired from after 43 years owns this micro-factory, so I do have an association with them.,
4. I don't know anything about how the technology works yet. We only met to discuss whether or not is was something they could adapt their technology to and if they are interested in pursuing it.
5. I have no idea yet what it might cost.
6. The device would be an add on to a roaster, although they did discuss the idea of should they build a roaster of their own.
I would love to hear from this community as to whether or not you would have an interest in such a device, so please respond here as to your initial thoughts. Thanks!
Here is a link to a YouTube video from the company discussing the smoker. They have several videos: https://youtu.be/IQx_jZS0bcI
Shep
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Hello Shep,
It's nice to see an old, familiar face posting again.
I don't have the need for such a device, currently, but have thought about moving and how the facility that would suit me best at my age probably wouldn't be amenable to coffee roasting so I will be following if this goes anywhere.
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Exactly the case for us. We lived on a farm where we could do pretty much anything we wanted, but as I approached retirement age, we wanted something simple to care for that we could leave and travel easily. We ended up buying a patio home in a subdivision, similar to a townhouse or condo in which we are in close proximity to our neighbors. We have an HOA to navigate as well. I want to continue enjoying the roasting process, using an engaging machine, without creating a negative situation with my neighbors or the HOA.
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Gotcha.
An old member here, 7over, has a commercial roastery (uses a Loring now) with a self-designed fluid-bed roaster. He ran the exhaust through a large vat of water that would soak up the smoke before it exited the building. I thought it was a pretty cool and effective design, and wonder why that isn't used more often.
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I've posed this question in a few places. This may not be the right audience for the question but I thought I'd try to get as much input as possible to share with the engineers at the factory.
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another issue is, most roasters may not have just one tiny place for smoke to come out of. would you put it over the cap of a so and so, over the after burner of the behmor, how would it mount, would it need it's own air flow etc. We'd need more details on how it would work to know if it'd work with what we use.
We are a very diverse community and use pretty much every kind of coffee roaster known to mankind, including many home made ones !
A smokeless option might be nice for someone who lives in an apartment, where taking the roaster outside is a bit of a pain in the ass, but someone who already roasts in a garage or dedicated room, not so much needed.
aaron
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There are definitely more questions than answers right now. I meet with the engineers again Thursday so I might have a better understanding after that. For them as a business it always comes down to, "Is there a need for this?" That's what I'm trying to help ascertain.
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another thing to consider.
Smoke is basically unburned fuel.... is one way to look at it.
So if the smokeless thing is say, an afterburner, it's basically finishing up the burn process.
What does it give us in return? CO2, CO ? and the other lovlies of the combustion cycle of coffee :)
If I DID decide to roast in my apartment, instead of taking it outside so I don't totally smoke out the place, is this a gas hazard now? Kind of like BBQ indoors thingie?
Aaron
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Sorry, didn't mean to abandon my post. Made another visit to the shop to walk through the roasting process with them. They assigned a project manager to first look into the smoke elimination idea as an add on to a roaster then look into the idea of building their own roasters. No idea if either of these will go anywhere yet.
I don't have enough information to answer your questions with authority but it is my understanding that in the indoor smoker, the smoke is turned into water vapor and CO2, obviously this has to be safe levels to be useful. To be clear, that device and the pizza oven have no venting whatsoever. Their device does not fit in a vent pipe, there is no vent pipe. However, depending on the size of a coffee roaster, they may produce a lot more smoke to be dealt with than the meat smoker. If/when I learn something more helpful I will be sure to share.
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Interesting topic to be sure!
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By meat smoker, if you are talking one of those little things that have a heating element that you toss a few wood chips on to smoke meats in.
First off, that's about as 'authentic' as starbucks is, for smoked meats :P
A pizza oven should not make a heck of a lot of smoke unless you are burning the crust. A coffee roaster now, smoke is part of the deal, Id think you will see a lot more smoke with coffee, plus you need the air flow to remove the moisture AND the smoke so it does not linger and keep off flavors on the roast. With this, the smoke device will need to be able to handle that airflow the coffee roaster provides. A pizza oven is mostly convection, a coffee roaster, uses a hell of a lot more airmass. If it's using a catalyst to reduce the smoke to water and CO2, can it work fast enough with say 200 scfm or whatever it is a roaster puts out? Also, this chemical process is going to take energy. How much energy? Am I putting an 8000 BTU afterburner on my roaster now?
Curious to hear what you come up with.
Aaron
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Here is a YouTube video of it with some info. https://youtu.be/v4ImS_Q2qcc
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Very interesting video shep. Yes that looks like it'd be great for what they are doing but for a coffee roaster I do not think it'd work. They have hours to recirc the air and slowly putter it out after the smoke has been processed. A coffee roaster has what 20 minutes tops? and a fairly large amount of airflow and im betting a lot more shall I say smoke unit per minute once it gets going. I bet with a little design though, they could get that thing to come up to 450 and put a drum in there and kind of hold the smoke inside and whiff it out after being processed. It's doable they could make a roaster. Tell them to reach out here if they want any other insane ideas :D
Aaron
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Yeah, it will be interesting to see what they can do. So far, they think it is can be managed...but they have not tried it, and as you point out, the smoke output for a coffee roaster comes at a much faster rate. Time will tell. I just bought an Aillio Bullet and am taking it in next week. They are going to use it to try out a prototype on.
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Thanks for the input. It'll be interesting to see how they fare w/ the Bullet.
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As a Bullet owner I am too.
I deal with any after effects with a Natures Air purifier (ozone/etc) which helps after a bit but not immediately. Exhaust is hard as if it is sucked directly out of the machine it disrupts the logic. They say to put any exhaust system at least 6" above the machine.
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Got my Bullet and took it to the factory yesterday to experiment a little. That is really the purpose of this micro factory, to seek out and trial concepts. It is a Makerspace, which allows individuals from the community to bring in their projects and even use the various tools and equipment available. It is owned by the largest appliance manufacturer in the world so they have a lot of support.
Ok, on to the experiments. They had purchased a tabletop Fume Extractor so before trialing a prototype of theirs, they wanted to see how well the extractor did. Now, to be fair, I only loaded 350 grams into the machine because I didn't have very many greens in house. I roasted it well into 2nd crack. They placed the extractor hose over the vent with a 3-4 inch air gap. I can't say 100% how effective it was because we were in a very large space, but I can say that all the smoke that I could actually "see" went into the extractor where it goes through a charcoal filter and does not exit the extractor. It had zero impact on the roasting process. Yes, you could still smell the roast. This is what we were using: https://www.amazon.com/KNOKOO-extractor-FES150S-Soldering-Absorber/dp/B0923MXXTS/ref=pd_lpo_2?pd_rd_i=B0923MXXTS&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/KNOKOO-extractor-FES150S-Soldering-Absorber/dp/B0923MXXTS/ref=pd_lpo_2?pd_rd_i=B0923MXXTS&psc=1). If it were not for the cost of replacement filters I would have considered buying one and calling it good for my purposes.
While running that roast, one of the engineers put together a quick and simple prototype of what basically amounts to a mini afterburner/catalytic converter. I believe they said it can heat up to about 700-900 degrees internally. With the exception of some leaking at the seams of the device, it also eliminated/cleaned the majority of the smoke. Obviously there are certainly safety concerns to think about with this device, but again, this was simply a test to see if the idea has merit. It was attached directly to the exhaust port of the Bullet but had no noticeable impact on the roast. I overlayed a previous roast on the software and it followed it exactly.
I cannot tell you where it will go from here, if anywhere. Time will tell. Ultimately, it comes down to if they believe they can make something that fills a large enough need to justify its development. I will update when I have something valuable to share. If you want to speak with them directly, they welcome input/ideas. I can share the lead engineer's email if anyone wants it.
Thanks again for offering your thoughts.
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I've seen this company before. THey are backed by General Electric. Which is interesting, considering GE is working towards trying to get itself out of the 'small appliance world'
Do they actually let you into this warehouse to play around as well or you just submit your stuff to them and they do it?
After looking them up online and seeing some of their video's, Id love to visit it one day
aaron
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The GE Appliance division was sold off to Haier in 2016. They purchased rights of use for the name, so the products are still badged with the GEA name. Still built in the same facilities by the same people. There was no regime change when the sale took place. I worked for the company for 43 years and just retired.
Yes, you can visit FirstBuild. It is a MakerSpace, meaning you can bring in your own ideas, use their tools and equipment and they often get involved as well. You should definitely visit sometime. Just let them know you are coming.
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Interesting.
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Sorry for ghosting the post. I tore my hamstring and have been out of commission. I see an orthopedic surgeon Tuesday and may be out for a while. I need to confirm but I'm pretty certain the group decided against pursuing the concept.
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Sorry for ghosting the post. I tore my hamstring and have been out of commission. I see an orthopedic surgeon Tuesday and may be out for a while. I need to confirm but I'm pretty certain the group decided against pursuing the concept.
That's my read too.
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I came looking for new available greens today and stumbled onto this thread. I read it with interest and am sorry they have abandoned the project. Six weeks ago I moved from roasting for several years on a Behmor to a Huky.. With the B, most all roasts were done outside, whereas with the H, I have been roasting inside the garage next to the garage door opening, venting the smoke and exhaust out and vertically up a 8’ flexible hose, using a better sealed Huky exhaust fan setup. I still feel that I’m still breathing more hazardous VOCs than I had hoped depending on wind. It is a workable situation so far this summer with the door wide open, but I live over 6k ‘ in the CO foothills so winter will necessitate a new approach by exhausting under a partially opened garage door. Consequently I have been searching for a portable flexible hood to somehow vent my work area under the door to the outside, or some type of afterburner/catalyst to neutralize the emissions into less hazardous chemicals for lung health. (Assuming that would be the endpoint goal of any new device, not just eradication of visible smoke)
I might add, my tinfoil hat is safely stashed in the box on the closet shelf, but the concerns with breathing diacetyl and 2,3 pentanedione are well founded, especially with compromised lung health like asthma, COPD etc. Hopefully something that will adapt to the OP and other home roaster’s needs will be developed.
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Roast in front of your dryer. turn it on, suck the smoke in thru it and out the vent. Better yet, throw the beans in there, bypass the thermostat and turn your dryer INTO a roaster, that vents outside :D
Aaron
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Hey Aaron,….I think you’re on to something 8)….this could be the next disruptive paradigm in home roaster design. The first multipurpose, easy to install, all convective, drum coffee roaster! Add an energy saving Loring knock off air recirculating system and watch the ESG dollars flow in …. :D
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Hey, 210doc!
Help me understand why the Behmor was fine for the outdoors, but the Huky isn't. Is it simply that you don't want to be roasting outside?
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Hey Aaron,….I think you’re on to something 8)….this could be the next disruptive paradigm in home roaster design. The first multipurpose, easy to install, all convective, drum coffee roaster! Add an energy saving Loring knock off air recirculating system and watch the ESG dollars flow in …. :D
They really have not caught on much in the US, not sure why really, given the green tards push for energy saving this and that over here but the Heat Pump dryers would be a big step in that direction. They already recirc the air. Get it REALLY hot, and the rear chamber has your clothes in it, they absorb the excess heat to dry. the clothes take the heat, the water in them takes in the smoke, which you just burp down the drain then, or right into your giant sequoia tree you plant next to it, to catch any smoke that may drift out :D This process takes all freakin day so you start it right before you goto bed, and when you wake up in the morning, you have dry clothes, and hot water to make your coffee with. You clothes will also have a slight smell of coffee to better get you in the mood too >:D
Do you want to call shark tank or shall I ?
Aaron
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Hey, 210doc!
Help me understand why the Behmor was fine for the outdoors, but the Huky isn't. Is it simply that you don't want to be roasting outside?
Hey Peter,
Basically it’s portability and avoiding wind with the Huky. I built a cart for mobility in the garage, but accessing my outside roasting area involves going up steps. Issue will be winter weather roasts.
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makes a lot of sense.
The Behmor one little unit you tote where you want, plop it down, plug it in and it's good to go, although wind / breezes will IMO cause more harm to the process with the Behmor than it would with a Huky.
The Huky you have to lug a heavy roaster, propane tanks, and all sorts of other gadgetry and set it up. Much less portable than the B is.
Aaron