The Carezza compendium

[thejavaman]

Interesting.  I know for a fact that the o-ring on my Carezza's steam wand isn't in that placement, but I still get decent foam without a problem.  I'll have to test it out this weekend.

[John F]

Interesting.  I know for a fact that the o-ring on my Carezza's steam wand isn't in that placement, but I still get decent foam without a problem.  I'll have to test it out this weekend.

Watch that vid Tex posted and see how much air the turbo is introducing (non stop).

With my o-ring in the stock position it was doing the exact same thing. 

The good news is that all you need is a clear glass of water and you will be able to test to a highly visual result. 

[staylor]

I remember reading a long time ago that people were pouring art with Gaggia machines so I've always known it was possible I just thought it was really hard and I kept avoiding it because, well..you know why..I didn't want to have to do it once I decided I "had" to do it. 

What I poured today was honest to goodness microfoam but it needs some work. I need to get it a lot tighter but it was a serious improvement and it's only a matter of time now.   

Way to go John ... enjoy!

 

MP, earlier you stated you were making microfoam and I asked you at what point are you introducing air into the milk. You didn't reply but I asked you that for a reason. Based on what I know of the Carrezza through discussion with John yesterday and watching the video posted by Tex of the wand in water I have to believe your ideas of what microfoam is, well, is, wrong. And now that we almost have you converted over from an occasionally drinking coffee guy into an espresso pulling regular I want to try an complete the conversion over to the dark side. So run me through the process in detail and I bet I can get you a lot closer to microfoam.

[SusanJoM]

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[mp]

MP, earlier you stated you were making microfoam and I asked you at what point are you introducing air into the milk. You didn't reply but I asked you that for a reason. Based on what I know of the Carrezza through discussion with John yesterday and watching the video posted by Tex of the wand in water I have to believe your ideas of what microfoam is, well, is, wrong. And now that we almost have you converted over from an occasionally drinking coffee guy into an espresso pulling regular I want to try an complete the conversion over to the dark side. So run me through the process in detail and I bet I can get you a lot closer to microfoam.

Hey Shaun ... I didn't answer for a reason ... for fear that I would bear the wrath of Khaun .. I mean Shaun.  Honestly you were taking a poke at my mentor Tex alias Robert who brought me through a long journey into espresso bliss long before I joined here.  A famed US barista asking a local self practicing coffee roaster when I introduce air into the milk.

Truthfully I'm not even sure how to answer your question ... I suppose I introduce it when I cut the new bag of milk and pour a few ounces of it for frothing.  Is that what you wanted to know?

 

[SusanJoM]

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[mp]

I asked you the question about your frothing technique based on two comments you made which cause me to scratch my head.

1) You are starting the steaming with the wand sunk in and you hold it there the entire time. And so I was wondering at what point the initial (and required) air bubbles are being introduced so you can then begin the fractioning of the air bubbles (I'll post up some images from this morning, taken with the express purpose of trying to explain a thing or two).

2) You mentioned holding the wand down in the milk until there is a low guttural noise coming from the jug and that's when you stop steaming. That noise is usually a sign that you have overheated the milk, thus denaturing the protein far too much, thus compromised the ability to have "really good" microfoam and thus stripped the milk of it's natural sweetness which is only possible to taste up to a certain temp.

Remember, this isn't personal, it's not about you it's about the milk in this instance.

And so, without a hint of a poke... at what point are you introducing air into the milk

I am always game for learning more. 

On point number 1 yes ... the way I did it with the Carezza was to stick the steam wand into the middle of the container and put it down just up from the bottom of it.  I would turn on the steam wand and then put it into position and let her fly.  Look forward to your images.  But seriously forget the Carezza my problem is the Isomac Tea ll ... I pulled some good micro foam shots but few and far between ... could really use some pointers on this baby to improve my consistentcy in producing micro foam.  This is a beast of a different nature.

On point number 2 ... you may be right ... but IMHO the taste was sweet and it resembled liquid chrome and poured like molten metal.  When I stopped the steaming the milk level was about twice its size.  When drinking the cappucinno you could taste the thickness of the milk.

Hope I answered your questions.

[staylor]

Microfoam:

These are some images from this morning. I didn't break out the Nikon to get real artsy with this set of images, and the pours weren't with latte art in mind. I simply focused on pouring two different kinds of microfoam. One of the pours was decent microfoam, good for art, good for transporting the espresso. The second pour was super-tight microfoam, really, really small bubbles and not good at all for art, and not as good at espresso transport but certainly giving a luxurious mouthfeel. Both very different and both definitely microfoam.

The images were shot after the pours had sat there for approx 15sec so some of the micro-bubbles were starting to collapse into each other forming larger (but still very, very, very small) bubbles.

By way of reference the pours were into my little 4oz Vietnamese cups and without getting all sciency the rim of the cup (the black strip) is 1mm in diameter.

[staylor]

I asked you the question about your frothing technique based on two comments you made which cause me to scratch my head.

1) You are starting the steaming with the wand sunk in and you hold it there the entire time. And so I was wondering at what point the initial (and required) air bubbles are being introduced so you can then begin the fractioning of the air bubbles (I'll post up some images from this morning, taken with the express purpose of trying to explain a thing or two).

2) You mentioned holding the wand down in the milk until there is a low guttural noise coming from the jug and that's when you stop steaming. That noise is usually a sign that you have overheated the milk, thus denaturing the protein far too much, thus compromised the ability to have "really good" microfoam and thus stripped the milk of it's natural sweetness which is only possible to taste up to a certain temp.

Remember, this isn't personal, it's not about you it's about the milk in this instance.

And so, without a hint of a poke... at what point are you introducing air into the milk

I am always game for learning more. 

On point number 1 yes ... the way I did it with the Carezza was to stick the steam wand into the middle of the container and put it down just up from the bottom of it.  I would turn on the steam wand and then put it into position and let her fly.  Look forward to your images.  But seriously forget the Carezza my problem is the Isomac Tea ll ... I pulled some good micro foam shots but few and far between ... could really use some pointers on this baby to improve my consistentcy in producing micro foam.  This is a beast of a different nature.

On point number 2 ... you may be right ... but IMHO the taste was sweet and it resembled liquid chrome and poured like molten metal.  When I stopped the steaming the milk level was about twice its size.  When drinking the cappucinno you could taste the thickness of the milk.

Hope I answered your questions.

Take a look at the images I just posted up and let me know if your milk looks like this.

[mp]

Take a look at the images I just posted up and let me know if your milk looks like this.

Let me qualify my answer.  With the Carezza and the PID Auberin machine I have yes.  With the Isomac Tea ll ... I got that maybe 2 or 3 times since I have been using it.  The consistency of micro foam production on it is still very elusive.

Please don't ask me to produce photographic proof of this as it is pictures such as this that makes me want to get a real digital camera and not my lowly point and shoot that has an awfull in close shooting detail.

 

[staylor]

Take a look at the images I just posted up and let me know if your milk looks like this.

Let me qualify my answer.  With the Carezza and the PID Auberin machine I have yes.  With the Isomac Tea ll ... I got that maybe 2 or 3 times since I have been using it.  The consistency of micro foam production on it is still very elusive.

Please don't ask me to produce photographic proof of this as it is pictures such as this that makes me want to get a real digital camera and not my lowly point and shoot that has an awfull in close shooting detail.

 

Well even though I have a pretty capable photo rig it's my skills with it that's the limitation rather than the camera. I'm not too happy about the quality of the images I put up but I guess they will serve the purpose.

What threw me off about how you are describing your steaming is this... Typically when a person goes to steam microfoam there is an initial few seconds where the air bubbles are introduced into the milk by skimming the surface of the milk. As I discussed this with John, I showed him that I might only surface surf for 3secs or maybe 4secs depending on what I am trying to do (and depending on the age of the milk, type, planetary alignment, etc). Once the initial 3sec air bubbles exist it then requires the fractioning of those big bubbles (and by big I mean small bubbles, but they are massive compared to the end result micro-bubbles). The remainder of your time is spent manipulating the milk to destroy the bubbles into smaller and smaller and smaller sized bubbles. That requires you to sink the wand into the jug and get on to bubble-smashing. Now remember, I'm not talking about the big sea foam bubbles that you see EVERYWHERE, I'm talking about small bubbles that then get smashed into super-small bubbles.

Watching the Carrezza video posted by Tex and talking with John, the Carrezza wand is introducing house-sized bubbles into the milk. Uhmmmm, not good. The small bubbles I'm talking about are only introduced in the first 2-3secs from then on it should be a no-air scenario.

Huh? No air? Well, about 4 or 5yrs ago there was a a magical point in the espresso world where good baristas, observant home espresso drinkers and passionate geeks started talking about the abilities (or more importantly the non-abilities) of certain wands, wand tips, boilers, dry steam, wet steam, phony air introduction systems, etc. Out of that came an understanding that simple because you hold a steam wand in your hand doesn't make it magically capable of producing microfoam. Speaking of the Brewtus II that I use, the Brewtus Users Forum went through a period of time where at least five steam tips were compared, one of them being the stock tip that came with the machine (horrendous) and one of them being the tip I bought after-market (awesome). So again, because it's called an espresso machine doesn't guarantee any ability to produce microfoam - so your inability to punch out good foam may not have anything to do with you, it could simply be a bad steam tip.

Following me so far?

Maybe check to see if there is mention on Google about Isomac Tea steam tips - suck/no suck?

[John F]

The compendium has cracked. 

No worries once I get the vital details into the top posts I will separate off all of our discussions and I envision a very detailed look at the Carezza when it's all said and done.

MP...what I've learned with the recent turn of events leaves me wondering why you are having any trouble with the tea and how anything like microfoam was achieved on the Carezza as you described getting it.
Here is why..

That vid Tex posted tells the tale..the Carezza wand never stops introducing massive air from start to finish. How can you transition from introducing air to breaking down/incorporating it to smaller "micro" bubbles when the thing is running full speed introducing more and more air?

With the Tea you don't have that problem anymore so things should be good. 

I'm confused but think the solution is at hand....I'm sending you a PM MP. 

[John F]

Just out of curiosity, John, have you experimented with taking the turbo frother totally off? 

Moving the o-ring amounts to about the same thing as taking it off only the end of the wand is extended.

I didn't fully understand your milk technique but I think you are making steamed milk not microfoam...nothing wrong with steamed milk BTW if that is what you are after. 

[John F]

This post moved at request of the long arm of Joe.

[Joe]

John could you please migrate your last post to this topic:

http://www.greencoffeebuyingclub.com/index.php?topic=5864.msg86877#msg86877