Author Topic: What is the optimal air flow rate in fluid bed roasters?  (Read 15524 times)

Offline Warrior372

  • Standard User
  • *****
  • Posts: 1627
Re: What is the optimal air flow rate in fluid bed roasters?
« Reply #75 on: November 04, 2009, 11:47:19 AM »
I have tried several different setups for the 'roaster' and regardless of tube taper, stator blade, etc. I hardly get any bean agitation. I am now going to try integrating a centrifugal blower into the mix. This think is getting a lot larger than I wanted it, but as long as I get a high enough rated blower that just might mean larger roast batches!

I am assuming when something is CMF rated it is done at the diameter of the objects opening? When looking at centrifugal blowers I am guessing I want a larger air outlet vs smaller?

Thanks,
Mike

Offline peter

  • The Warden - Now Retired
  • Retired Old Goats
  • **
  • Posts: 14519
  • Monkey Club Cupper
Re: What is the optimal air flow rate in fluid bed roasters?
« Reply #76 on: November 04, 2009, 01:03:21 PM »
Maybe, inside your roasting tube, you need to have a horizontal drum with vanes, in which to roast the beans.  ?    ;)


<in my best Curly Howard voice, "Oh, a wise guy, eh?"
Quote of the Day; \"...yet you refuse to come to Me that you

Offline Warrior372

  • Standard User
  • *****
  • Posts: 1627
Re: What is the optimal air flow rate in fluid bed roasters?
« Reply #77 on: November 04, 2009, 01:06:34 PM »
I ended up fashioning a triangular Sivetzesc roast chamber. So, I am not sure I can put a horizontal drum with veins in there now :) .
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 03:31:01 PM by Warrior372 »

Offline Warrior372

  • Standard User
  • *****
  • Posts: 1627
Re: What is the optimal air flow rate in fluid bed roasters?
« Reply #78 on: November 09, 2009, 11:12:19 PM »
So, I stumbled upon a very nice, barely used centrifugal blower on craigslist. I should have it in my hands on Wednesday. Apparently good American made squirrel cage blowers are not cheap. . . The one I got sells for $1500 new. Anyway, I should be back in business and I will hopefully have it done and working sometime this weekend. I have a feeling I might have a few more CFMs than I know what to do with.

Offline John F

  • White Rabbit
  • Retired Old Goats
  • **
  • Posts: 14237
  • Coffee elitist
Re: What is the optimal air flow rate in fluid bed roasters?
« Reply #79 on: November 10, 2009, 06:51:13 AM »
How can you add a blower that isn't heated?

Won't you just murder the temp by doing that?

Also, have you tried reducing the batch size and finding a batch that will roast properly?
"At no point should you be in condition white unless you are in your bed sleeping with your doors locked."

Lee Morrison

Offline Warrior372

  • Standard User
  • *****
  • Posts: 1627
Re: What is the optimal air flow rate in fluid bed roasters?
« Reply #80 on: November 10, 2009, 08:03:39 AM »
The propane tube on it's own will simply not even move 1 cup of beans. The other issue is that even with the 'roasting chamber' 2 1/2 feet above the torpedo tube outlet the beans scorch immediately from the intensity of the heat, even within normal roasting temps. I will be introducing ambient temp air, but I will just jack up the temp of the propane tube. It could get to 400 degrees on low, 30,000 btu, so it should be able to do close to 700 degrees at 50,000 btu if needed. The additional number of feet it will have to travel will also get the heat source further from the roasting chamber, i.e. less intense. The nice thing about the squirrel cage blowers is that you can install a slide damper on the air intake to control air output. I could also install an air damper within the tube of the roaster if needed.

If I absolutely murder the temp, I will just have to buy a larger propane tube. The way it is currently setup just will not work. I have fiddled with stator blades, different distances between the roasting chamber and the propane tube, tapering the flow tubes from 7" to 4" and different configurations of the roasting chamber. Nothing worked.

Also, after researching these blowers, I would love to dissect a Sono. It has to be the a monster popcorn popper. The price of a blower, like the one I got, but that can withstand high heat air input, up to 700 degress, is between $2,000 and $3,000 dollars. They are made 100% out of steel. To me that means no commercial roasting setup would use that because of cost. We think roaster are expensive now, imagine someone key-stoning the price of a roaster utilizing that blower. So, they must have the heating source downstream within the same tube the blower outflow is hooked up to. With propane, I am not sure how I would set that up. On the other hand, with an electrical heating coil, I would install it inside the air tube, right in front of the blower outflow just as it looks in a hot air popcorn popper.

While looking at hundreds of blowers, I also think I caught on to Sivitz. His blowers look like massive square ventilation blowers that blow at 2,000-4,000 CFM. Again, they are only able to tolerate up to 200 degress F, so the heating source must be downstream, otherwise the heat would wreck the blower. On the other hand, his sample roaster utilized an $85 dollar heat adjustable hot air blower with a metal funnel on it, what does that thing sell for? I think $300.

The main thing is agitating, moving, suspending the beans in the roasting chamber. Once I have enough air to do that I can always find a way to add supplement the heat production. Without the ability to agitate the beans, I just have a smoldering pile.

I wish I had more money to work with. . . With all the research I have done on this project and a pile of cash I could make a pretty mean roaster!

Thanks,
Michael

Offline Warrior372

  • Standard User
  • *****
  • Posts: 1627
Re: What is the optimal air flow rate in fluid bed roasters?
« Reply #81 on: November 10, 2009, 10:50:03 AM »
Does anyone know anything about gas power burners?

Offline Warrior372

  • Standard User
  • *****
  • Posts: 1627
Re: What is the optimal air flow rate in fluid bed roasters?
« Reply #82 on: November 11, 2009, 09:01:07 PM »
I got my blower today. Holy cow is it huge! I had the brilliant idea of putting my makeshift roast chamber on top of the outflow to see if it would move the beans. . . . It did not just move the beans, but blew the lid straight off of the roast chamber and beans went all over my living room :) . Can anyone say damper?!?!

I am going to get the remaining air tubing I need in the next day or so. Then I can test the temp of the air with both the torpedo and the blower going. Wish me luck!

« Last Edit: November 12, 2009, 09:12:10 AM by Warrior372 »

milowebailey

  • Guest
Re: What is the optimal air flow rate in fluid bed roasters?
« Reply #83 on: November 12, 2009, 06:11:25 AM »
Take some photos... I'm intrigued by your persistence

Offline John F

  • White Rabbit
  • Retired Old Goats
  • **
  • Posts: 14237
  • Coffee elitist
Re: What is the optimal air flow rate in fluid bed roasters?
« Reply #84 on: November 12, 2009, 06:13:36 AM »
Here's to luck, persistence, and some photos with detailed instructions.  8)
"At no point should you be in condition white unless you are in your bed sleeping with your doors locked."

Lee Morrison

Offline Warrior372

  • Standard User
  • *****
  • Posts: 1627
Re: What is the optimal air flow rate in fluid bed roasters?
« Reply #85 on: November 13, 2009, 10:04:55 PM »
Alright, so I had a chance to test the air temp where the propane tube and blower air tubes meet. . . . and it was very interesting! I went from 650F plus with only the torpedo on to 80 degrees in about 1 minute after turning on the blower. The blower seemed to be overkill from the start at 1050CFM, but I got a great deal on it and figured I could always dumb it down. So, I fashioned a pretty ruff looking slide damper, which actually works to cut the airflow very nicely. I will test her again tomorrow, hopefully with warmer results. I guess if cutting the down the blower output does not get me where I need to be temp wise I can always upgrade the propane tube, or add an infared propane heater to preheat the blower air intake, or maybe even try installing an exhaust tube so I can roast inside and avoid the cold outdoor air!

Wish me luck. This is getting a little more involved than I initially planned! I will post pictures if / when it works properly :) .

Offline John F

  • White Rabbit
  • Retired Old Goats
  • **
  • Posts: 14237
  • Coffee elitist
Re: What is the optimal air flow rate in fluid bed roasters?
« Reply #86 on: November 13, 2009, 10:07:20 PM »
Persistence.... you got it!   ;)
"At no point should you be in condition white unless you are in your bed sleeping with your doors locked."

Lee Morrison

Offline J.Jirehs Roaster

  • Standard User
  • *****
  • Posts: 2613
Re: What is the optimal air flow rate in fluid bed roasters?
« Reply #87 on: November 14, 2009, 06:54:42 AM »
can you control the blower motor speed instead of the damper?? I wonder what the long term stress on the motor is when you choke it down like that??

Offline Warrior372

  • Standard User
  • *****
  • Posts: 1627
Re: What is the optimal air flow rate in fluid bed roasters?
« Reply #88 on: November 14, 2009, 07:15:37 AM »
No, I cannot just adjust the speed of the blower. They are either on or off. The only way I could really do this is to buy one of these blowers new and instead of getting a direct drive version I would have to get a belt drive version. I spoke with a rep from the company and he said the your really only start taxing the motor if you close the damper slide more than 75-80%. The particular brand I found used is very expensive secondhand let alone new. The blower I got retails for $1500 in direct drive and much more if you want a belt drive. From looking at used ones on the web the belt drive must not be that popular, because I have not seen a used on yet. So in a perfect world I would actually have a high heat belt driven one. They make an all stainless steel blower, which can tolerate up to 700F intake temperatures. That would be perfect. . . You could just blow the torpedo tube right into the blower intake. . . I didn't even ask about the price of this version. If I find one used great, but otherwise it will be a while before I can blow that much on a blower. Also, if I am going to buy a blower for 2-3k why not just buy a Sivetz for 4k :) .

« Last Edit: November 14, 2009, 07:18:09 AM by Warrior372 »

Offline J.Jirehs Roaster

  • Standard User
  • *****
  • Posts: 2613
Re: What is the optimal air flow rate in fluid bed roasters?
« Reply #89 on: November 15, 2009, 08:35:33 AM »
sounds good to me... I don't think I respect the size of this beast you are building... I wonder if one of those infra red propane turkey (not)firers with that blower blowing through it would give you the heat?? probably not... the air needs too much time to heat up