Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!

[John F]

So I see the guy who buys a $2000 - $5000 espresso machine and say to myself, "Self, does that espresso machine make espresso that's better than a PID'd Rancilio Silvia or Gaggia Classic??" And my self answers, "Of course not, the buyer's succumbed to some perceived reality, not reality as you know it."

I'll agree on one portion of what you are saying.

Simply buying a better machine does not = better espresso.

But just like the grinders better machines are.....better. There is no inherent downside to having a better machine because better results are (potentially) possible.

Now do 85% of people upgrading actualize those potentials or would the PID Gaggia have been able to offer them the same level of quality they experience....that is a question we would probably agree on more closely.

[peter]

Trying to convince someone else that your perception of the truth is the only truth, is the ultimate in hubris.

The ultimate in hubris is trying to assess motive to someone else' actions.

We judge others by their actions, but judge ourselves by our intentions.

Granted, we can't see others' hearts, so the only thing we have to go on is their actions.  Which of course is why it's foolhardy to imply motives, which you are doing.

Edit; let me add 'in my opinion', just to be safe.   

[Tex]

Trying to convince someone else that your perception of the truth is the only truth, is the ultimate in hubris.

The ultimate in hubris is trying to assess motive to someone else' actions.

We judge others by their actions, but judge ourselves by our intentions.

Granted, we can't see others' hearts, so the only thing we have to go on is their actions.  Which of course is why it's foolhardy to imply motives, which you are doing.

Edit; let me add 'in my opinion', just to be safe.   

This conversations getting too weighty for a country boy from Texas. Can you restate what you said in paragraphs with a minimum of multi-syllable words?

My intentions are pure, as always. It's my actions that gets everything dirtied up.

[expy98]

questions:

if a smaller but deeper basket is "better" than the standard 58mm double basket, what does that
say about the 58mm triple basket, which is both deep and wide?  How would it compare to the
55mm or smaller baskets?  Would a 55mm or smaller triple basket be even better?

[Tex]

questions:

if a smaller but deeper basket is "better" than the standard 58mm double basket, what does that
say about the 58mm triple basket, which is both deep and wide?  How would it compare to the
55mm or smaller baskets?  Would a 55mm or smaller triple basket be even better?

The thing is, I'd be willing to bet that no one has ever done the testing to prove if one's better than the rest. It's kinda like the Illy article I like to cite, without the numbers from his testing to back up his claims, who's to say 9 bar is best, or the brew temp range is accurate?

All of these numbers fall into the conventional wisdom category, or maybe they're just urban legends?

[mp]

So Robert ... are you doubting Warrior's experience with different size portafilters?

 

[Pyment]

Trying to convince someone else that your perception of the truth is the only truth, is the ultimate in hubris.

The ultimate in hubris is trying to assess motive to someone else' actions.

There's a brewery in town here that used to be Huber's. Now its called Minhas. I liked Hubers better.

http://www.minhasbrewery.com/main.asp

I still have to convince myself that espresso is worth the effort. Until I do, my next purchase will be an egg.

[Tex]

So Robert ... are you doubting Warrior's experience with different size portafilters?

 

No, but it's far from what I'd consider scientific proof. I'd probably need a 10,000 sq ft lab, and $500,000 worth of equipment minimum to do the kind of scientific testing that would satisfy me. There are probably grants to be had to do this, but I'm too retired to look into it

But, until the testing is done and the results published, take anything you read about one portafilter size being better than another with a grain of salt.

[Tex]

Trying to convince someone else that your perception of the truth is the only truth, is the ultimate in hubris.

The ultimate in hubris is trying to assess motive to someone else' actions.

There's a brewery in town here that used to be Huber's. Now its called Minhas. I liked Hubers better.

http://www.minhasbrewery.com/main.asp

I still have to convince myself that espresso is worth the effort. Until I do, my next purchase will be an egg.

A few Huber's and one's hubris factor increases exponentially.

An egg is a good thing, but how are you ever going to make good espresso with one?

[Warrior372]

So Robert ... are you doubting Warrior's experience with different size portafilters?

 

No, but it's far from what I'd consider scientific proof. I'd probably need a 10,000 sq ft lab, and $500,000 worth of equipment minimum to do the kind of scientific testing that would satisfy me. There are probably grants to be had to do this, but I'm too retired to look into it

But, until the testing is done and the results published, take anything you read about one portafilter size being better than another with a grain of salt.

Or you could put your grain of salt back into the salt box, save the $500,000 dollars, come over to my house and play with 5 different classic commercial lever espresso machines. You would have 3-58mm machines to play with, 2-Conti and 1-Caramali and 2-55mm La San Marcos. I am sure I could also borrow the Olympia Cremina from the local coffee lover too whom I sold it, so we could get a 49mm in on the action too. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but I can say from experience the shots from machines having different PF basket sizes taste different and I personally believe the machines with smaller PFs are capable of pulling far superior shots. Until you experience the shots from one of these machines yourself you may think otherwise, but that will not sway my palate. . . It has already made up it's mind .

[Gime2much]

questions:

if a smaller but deeper basket is "better" than the standard 58mm double basket, what does that
say about the 58mm triple basket, which is both deep and wide?  How would it compare to the
55mm or smaller baskets?  Would a 55mm or smaller triple basket be even better?

The thing is, I'd be willing to bet that no one has ever done the testing to prove if one's better than the rest. It's kinda like the Illy article I like to cite, without the numbers from his testing to back up his claims, who's to say 9 bar is best, or the brew temp range is accurate?

All of these numbers fall into the conventional wisdom category, or maybe they're just urban legends?

There is also an Illy article where he presents a optimum depth to width ratio for 14g and comes up with 58mm, can't find it now. My San Marco is 55mm and the taste does seem different. Just don't ask me to describe what the difference is.

Dan Brewer

[Warrior372]

questions:

if a smaller but deeper basket is "better" than the standard 58mm double basket, what does that
say about the 58mm triple basket, which is both deep and wide?  How would it compare to the
55mm or smaller baskets?  Would a 55mm or smaller triple basket be even better?

Great point! Having experienced 58mm triple basket shots with a Synesso triple basket on my Isomac Tea II and my Magister, I would have to say you might be onto something there. The two flavor profiles would be much more similar between a Ristretto shot pulled on a 58mm triple basket and a full shot pulled with a 55mm double basket on a La San Marco lever espresso machine.

The only catch is that La San Marco also makes a Triple 55mm basket, so if you add that into the equation and put the 58mm triple and 55mm triple against each other you run into the same problem again. But, for all intensive purposes you just helped me describe the basic differences to everyone here in the forum. I know many of the espresso lovers in here have 58mm espresso machines, so now they can play with their own home 58mm espresso machines and try to pick up the differences in shot profile when they pull a 1.5oz shot with a 58mm double basket followed by a Ristretto with a 58mm triple basket. You will taste a difference . . . . . Thank You!

[Warrior372]

questions:

if a smaller but deeper basket is "better" than the standard 58mm double basket, what does that
say about the 58mm triple basket, which is both deep and wide?  How would it compare to the
55mm or smaller baskets?  Would a 55mm or smaller triple basket be even better?

The thing is, I'd be willing to bet that no one has ever done the testing to prove if one's better than the rest. It's kinda like the Illy article I like to cite, without the numbers from his testing to back up his claims, who's to say 9 bar is best, or the brew temp range is accurate?

All of these numbers fall into the conventional wisdom category, or maybe they're just urban legends?

There is also an Illy article where he presents a optimum depth to width ratio for 14g and comes up with 58mm, can't find it now. My San Marco is 55mm and the taste does seem different. Just don't ask me to describe what the difference is.

Dan Brewer

To me it yields a shot with slightly more body and a more layered flavor profile. I could say that to all of my friends and they would just look at me even more cross-eyed, as they already think I am nuts with all of the machine I have in my house. Shoot, they thought all coffee was the same until I came along. . . .

[Pyment]

Trying to convince someone else that your perception of the truth is the only truth, is the ultimate in hubris.

The ultimate in hubris is trying to assess motive to someone else' actions.

There's a brewery in town here that used to be Huber's. Now its called Minhas. I liked Hubers better.

http://www.minhasbrewery.com/main.asp

I still have to convince myself that espresso is worth the effort. Until I do, my next purchase will be an egg.

A few Huber's and one's hubris factor increases exponentially.

An egg is a good thing, but how are you ever going to make good espresso with one?

To my knowledge, I haven't ever had good espresso.  So, I'll stick with the egg........or chicken.... or whichever came first.

[Pyment]

addendum - I will keep my eye out for a fixer upper that might be worthy of refurbing on the off chance I want to try this again. For instance the Gaggia Coffee for $90?