Good or great espresso machines? Let the arguing begin!

[staylor]

Not really, especially since all I get in response is more ego trips from you.

If you don't believe in minimum standards for espresso why bother calling what you produce espresso? Calling Shaun shots espresso must seem demeaning to you?

You don't get any better at this.

Look back and find where I stated I don't believe in minimum standards. Go on, find that statement. I'll wait here patiently tapping my foot.

Ohhhhhh, hang on, wait a minute, noooooowwwww I get it... I don't know how I've never noticed this before. What you are really trying to do is make it appear that I don't believe in minimum standards for espresso, when in fact I never stated such a thing, but in so doing you might make the reader believe that I did say something as silly as what you are posing as fact. Wow, it's kind of like a misrepresentation of my position in order for you to gain favor from an audience or deflect the spotlight away your own ignorance - hey isn't that's a new tactic for you? And so to continue with a logical extension of that, if someone was going to apply that kind of cheap, transparent and sad effort, wouldn't it be nice if it was given a name, maybe something like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

[GC7]

Soooo.... uuuuhhh.....

Was I right that the main reason to go from the SBDU with PID machine to the next cost level - an entry level heat exchanger machine is improved steam? If few stay at that level, then it would seem not.

Are there other quality indicators also introduced at that level?

What (besides steam) makes an Oscar, Bezzera BZ02 and other entry level HX machines worth the additional money?

Look! I'm the one staying on topic!

Here are a couple of reasons.
You will never be able to have company and produce shots back to back to back to back that you would want to serve to guests.
They are finicky especially with no preinfusion. Your success rate will be lower.  Sylvia is notorious for its testy behavior.
Very few people make only straight espresso.
HX machines, especially those E61 machines that can take a grouphead thermometer, are workhorses that make great drinks and can satisfy reasonable sized groups.
Double boilers with larger brew boilers then Sylvia or Gaggia are a no brainer. Saying a Gaggia is more appropriate then a La Spaz V2 (as Tex did in this thread) is simply lunacy.

No need to believe me though.

Did you read Jim Schulman’s answer to a prospective Quickmill Alexia buyer? The Alexia is top of the line SBDU.  I have not seen anyone question his credibility.  He's Tex's EXPERT.

[Tex]

Soooo.... uuuuhhh.....

Was I right that the main reason to go from the SBDU with PID machine to the next cost level - an entry level heat exchanger machine is improved steam? If few stay at that level, then it would seem not.

Are there other quality indicators also introduced at that level?

What (besides steam) makes an Oscar, Bezzera BZ02 and other entry level HX machines worth the additional money?

Look! I'm the one staying on topic!

I own HX machines (3 at last count - one of which I'm rebuilding) and I honestly don't know why HX machines are considered a step up from a PID'd SBDU machine. They do offer strong steam capability, and if you're making milk based drinks for a party they are hard to beat.

But if you're just making caps & lattes for one or two people a good SBDU machine is just as good. I offer these videos as proof;

2008-03-18: Gaggia Baby steaming 1 quart of water

2008-07-27: Gaggia Carezza as a steam machine

It takes ~39 seconds to go from brew temp to 300°F steam temp and the steam can be used for 4+ minutes without having to refill the boiler with water. That's more than enough time to create great microfoam. For the few times I actually have milk with my coffee I spend the waiting time getting the milk from the refrigerator and filling the container. Some see the shot sitting on the drainer as it getting cold, but that's not been my experience as long as I use a hot cup to pull the shot into.

edited: I forgot to mention that HX machines are built for commercial environments, where they're kept in constant use. If used at home where they'll set idle most of the time, they are a pain in the ass. This is because the heat exchanger is just a tube through the boiler that is heated by super-hot water in the boiler (~255°F). As long as the machine is in constant use the water passing through the HX is at a consistent temperature. But if the machine is idle, the water in the HX will stabilize at the boiler temp - far too hot to make espresso with. With some machines the group will also overheat. This is because some groups use the passive heating of a thermosyphon action. This is water passed from the HX to the group via tubes.

To counter this unstable condition requires a cooling flush to cool the HX & group. This is imprecise, but with experience on can hit the brew temp to withing one degree consistently. So, although the need for a cooling flush is a PITA, it can be ddone effectively.

[CAGurl]

What the heck is a SBDU?

[Pyment]

Well if you've read this whole thread you deserve an answer!

Single Boiler Dual Use (brew and steam).

[CAGurl]

Sheesh, when did they stop just being called Single Boiler?
Don't all single boiler machines do that??

[CAGurl]

Read the whole thing???
Do you think I'm crazy??

Nah....the arguing makes me want to throw up.

Get a Gaggia Classic.
Add a PID and a Silvia steam wand.

Don't offer espressos or lattes to your guests.

You'll be very happy.
Stop fretting.

Just buy one.

Susan

[Pyment]

Read the whole thing???
Do you think I'm crazy??

UUUUuuuHHhh...

Nah....the arguing makes me want to throw up.

A healthy reaction.

Get a Gaggia Classic.
Add a PID and a Silvia steam wand.

Don't offer espressos or lattes to your guests.

You'll be very happy.
Stop fretting.

Just buy one.

Susan

I am not fretting. I want to understand.

I may just skip all the in between steps and get a lever.

[peter]

Read the whole thing???
Do you think I'm crazy??

Nah....the arguing makes me want to throw up.

You know Robert about as good as anyone here, Susan.  Can't you talk to him, and get him to admit to his faulty reasoning?  Maybe we can Mankin to help out. 

[CAGurl]

You know Robert about as good as anyone here, Susan.  Can't you talk to him, and get him to admit to his faulty reasoning?  Maybe we can Mankin to help out. 

But why, might I ask, do you care what he thinks if you think he's wrong??

Susan

[CAGurl]

I am not fretting. I want to understand.

I may just skip all the in between steps and get a lever.

Yeah, I know you're not fretting;  everyone else is fretting around you.

I've had both a SAMA and a LaPeppina lever, but....I still prefer the semi-auto route.
A purist I am not....

Anyway, I dropped into this conversation only briefly and I've had my say and now I'm leaving because I'm sure the boys will go back to throwing things at each other any minute....

Susan

[peter]

You know Robert about as good as anyone here, Susan.  Can't you talk to him, and get him to admit to his faulty reasoning?  Maybe we can Mankin to help out. 

But why, might I ask, do you care what he thinks if you think he's wrong??

Susan

It's not good for the Club, that's why.

[CAGurl]

It's not good for the Club, that's why.

I have to assume that that is a joke that I don't get....

Susan

[ecc]

One of the reasons I like boilers is that they don't use anywhere near the same amount of water/power as an HX. Not a big deal for most, but my water is high scale, and I'm in a hard to plumb, hard to drain, not much space, not much available power home office situation.  And I don't think keeping a high load device on 24x7 is a great idea either.

Who knows if steam/milk deserves the priority it gets, but I know I am just another newbie home dude out of the mainstream, thinking milk just hides many of the nuances I am spending so much time/effort searching for in espresso.  I would like to try and understand why in a few months I will be compelled to abandon my trusty factory built Alexia and lust after home made, db, hx, commercial appliances, and multiple group heads.

In the meantime, this looks handy, who's afraid of mediocre milk?
http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/home/espressoaccs/quickmillmilksteamer

[staylor]

Who knows if steam/milk deserves the priority it gets, but I know I am just another newbie home dude out of the mainstream, thinking milk just hides many of the nuances I am spending so much time/effort searching for in espresso.  I would like to try and understand why in a few months I will be compelled to abandon my trusty factory built Alexia and lust after home made, db, hx, commercial appliances, and multiple group heads.

In the meantime, this looks handy, who's afraid of mediocre milk?
http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/home/espressoaccs/quickmillmilksteamer

Steaming milk deserves zero priority if you only drink straight shots, or you are allergic to milk, or you never have a guest/friend/family member around who enjoys milk (basically you can see into the future and predict you will never entertain). If you fall into all of those categories you don't need a steam wand.

I would suggest you don't make the decision to saw off your steam wand because you think it 'ruins' the espresso. If you want nuances in espresso then you should drink straight shots and also drink espresso with milk. Huh, why both? Being able to produce excellent small milk doesn't hide the nuances in espresso it brings some of them out, things that you don't get in straight espresso. At least that's why I drink espresso straight and why I drink it in small milk, between the two of them I cover a lot of ground. But, the caveat is that not all milk is created equal, excellent milk has an enhanced ability to transport espresso versus milk that has only been heated up and if you are pouring excellent espresso and excellent milk... well, you get the idea.