Green Coffee Buying Club
Coffee Discussion boards => Hardware & Equipment => Topic started by: Alaroast on October 12, 2020, 06:22:26 PM
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Figured I'd start a new thread since this one is geared towards troubleshooting :-[
So I went ahead and got this roaster knowing the burner doesn't light. The pilot does come on and stays on but burns tall and yellow with blue base. I spent the day deep cleaning this thing as it looks like it never been cleaned or at least not in a long time. It looks really good at least and all motors are quiet. I adjusted the pilot flame so the electrode is encased in flame but still no burner. I tried to adjust flame with needle valve and it did not affect the flame and tame down the yellow flame. My thought is that the Honeywell gas valve may be bad that controls the pilot and burner control electrically. Any thoughts or does anyone have experience with gas fired drum roasters?
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Do you hear the gas valve making any sound, like it's opening but not letting any gas go through?
I doubt that it's the valve but sensor it relies on to tell it there's flame present from the pilot is somehow not getting its signal to the valve that it should open up. I'd replace that before replacing the valve itself.
I've never had to troubleshoot my Ambex and know little about the roasters, so I don't have any real info to offer you. Have you tried contacting US Roasters, to either ask for some advice, or maybe find out if they have anyone in your area that could come out and service it? You might look for a HVAC person who works on gas furnaces to have a look at it; even though it's a different appliance I'm sure there's some carryover in the mechanics of both.
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Yellow flame sounds like it's getting starved. Is there a regulating valve on it? Make sure if it's an orifice that feeds the oxygen into the mixer chamber for the burner that it's clean, you'd be amazed where chaff can powder up and get into. Maybe even blow it out with some compressed air, Id suppose a can of that stuff would work too. blow out the burner, any mixing holes or air vents and controls real good and see if that helps any.
Aaron
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I did contact US Roasters about downloading the manual but they said that since each roaster is uniquely built per order, they didn't have a one size fits all manual but did offer several pdf's with general info such as maintenance, start up guide, etc...or if I wanted the manual for this specific roaster, I could order it for $250 or for an additional $100 get a one year service contract giving 6 hours of over the phone help along with the manual. Considering it but not yet. The inlet gas pressure was at 10" and should be at 14" so I adjusted pressure regulator all the way out and got 13.5". My next step was to start disassembling gas supply lines and yes Aaron, there is an orifice in the line going to the burner that could be clogged since it was sitting on this guys carport for who knows how long (according to US Roasters, he bought it in May of 2010) and there were signs of dirt dauber nests in the housing. Peter, yes I'll also look for troubleshooting steps for the igniter/thermocouple that senses pilot is lit. I know the guy who was selling it started banging around that area when we couldn't initially get the pilot lit then I figured out you had to have both the fan and drum turned on for that to work.
Sooo, bottom line is a few more troubleshooting steps on the gas control valve and igniter/thermocouple and then maybe call an HVAC tech. Or maybe I can work on a pay per call tech support with USRC. Thanks guys.
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You might be better off putting the repair money with them, an HVAC tech will charge you 100 dollars probably just to show up and say we don't work on those. Unless you know someone who does that and can troubleshoot but it's not that hard.
13.5 vs 14 is negligible it should work as it is. give it a whirl
aaron
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I disconnected several gas lines looking for blockage and didn't find anything. Orifices were also clear. Bottom line is that burner gas is not getting past the electric control valve; only pilot gas. I can hear the valve click when burner control is turned on. I read continuity through the igniter probe/flame sensor and also through the wire going to controller. I'll look online for what voltage values should be at contacts on controller and do some more testing.
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I would look for a local company that repairs commercial espresso machines. Since they're industry pros they might be able to give you a pointer towards someone who repairs roasters. We have a few folks like that where I live-you might too.
Regarding "special" construction, I wouldn't doubt that, but I'd also bet that a fair share of the components are shared between the various machines they make. Maybe its me, but I'd bet that they're all not 100% unique.
Good luck.
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Regarding "special" construction, I wouldn't doubt that, but I'd also bet that a fair share of the components are shared between the various machines they make. Maybe its me, but I'd bet that they're all not 100% unique.
Good luck.
I too believe there are likely lots of common components on all of their roasters but apparently unique differences that are special ordered that make a one-size-fit-all manual harder to produce.
I did find out that there should be 24V and the pilot valve (PV) contact on controller and there is 24V there when all functions are up and running. There should also be 24V on the main valve (MV) contact but there is only about 1V or less. The main valve should open when it senses that pilot is burning through the sensor at pilot. So to simple minded me, it seems that there is either a faulty pilot sensor or possibly a bad ground at pilot assembly. Thoughts ?
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sometimes a little percussive maintenance works wonders.
turn the gas on and smack that bitch with a hammer, not too hard, it might just have some sticky seals that need a bit of TLC to break free.
If you hear it clicking it might be trying to open the solenoid but it's just hanging up in there, if the thing was sitting for a while, that can easily happen.
Aaron
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That's a great idea, Aaron. Could just be stuck in the closed position.
I'm with Brian; when you say US Roasters and their $250 manual I thought that's their way of telling you they don't want to deal with a person who bought a used roaster. What could be so unique on your machine? That's a load of crap. Unless 3K was a size that they didn't make frequently, or they had a habit of sourcing components from different manufacturers, it's very hard to believe that they couldn't give you some concrete answers. That's just their way of squeezing $350 out of someone who is desperate to get their roaster revived.
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My thoughts would be with yours: something mechanical is stuck that's not responding to the changed input so it can't send the signal. Cleaner spray (maybe like a Mass Airflow type or contact cleaner type), hammer persuasion below Gorilla force. Sandpaper/emery if appropriate. A little propane blast sometimes works, as does freezing _if appropriate_. I wrench odd cars cars sometimes so out of the box isn't an uncommon solution.
A replacement valve might be sourced from someone like Grainger if USRC won't/don't have it.
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I’ve never worked on a gas roaster but I have experience working my home appliances. I had the same issue with my gas dryer and the guys at a local parts store helped me troubleshoot it. I checked the continuity of the flame sensor and solenoid on the gas valve. You should be able to do the same for your roaster. I would also suggest you check the wired connections to the flame sensor and solenoid valves. If it was sitting outside they could be corroded and not making a good connection. Good luck!
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The older pilot valves used a Thermocouple, really a pressure switch in a way to work. The pilot would heat a rod with liquid in it, used to be mercury, which would expand and go up a capillary and press on a bellows to open a valve type operation. Over time the part in the flame would get tiny holes in it, the insides would leak / evap out and they stop working. Id think that bringing it into an appliance repair place they may be able to piece you someting out of an old gas stove or something that would work as well.
The parts manual, any reputable business should have the shit online as a pdf or something you can download. Charging you THAT much is just crazy. Really sad IMO. Someone spends that kind of money for a machine, whether you are the first person to buy it or the 4th to re buy it, all that does is make people say, no thanks, I'll never use your products again.
Maybe the guy who died, it was broke on him and he never ran it again either because he could not get service, which may explain it's apparant lack of maintenance and care?
Aaron
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Thanks for all of the replies and all right in line with what I'm thinking or have tried so far...banged on valve while machine is on, checked for corroded or loose connections, checked voltage at valve, condition of thermocouple but was hesitant to open up gas control valve and look at the solenoid on main valve but that's probably next. I am picking up a new pilot orifice today to see if I can get a better /cleaner flame. I took the pilot assembly apart and instead of a nice open hole in tip, it had been modified and crimped mostly closed. It was an orifice for a NG and originally had .018 opening and should be .010 for LP. The ID plate on roaster states it is configured for LP and there is a label on gas controller stating so. Not sure what's going on with this modified orifice but likely explains the lazy yellow flame and may also affect signal to thermocouple. Aaron, I too believe this roaster was sitting longer than the seller indicated as he says the last time his brother used it was in June but hopper was really dirty and full of spider webs(maybe June of 2019). Also the back panel was off of it and and bracket securing gas controller was disassembled. I too think there was an undiagnosed issue with it.
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New LP orifice made a huge difference in pilot flame but burner still won't light. Went though a bunch of troubleshooting steps but nothing conclusive yet. i did order a new pilot igniter/sensor and should have it soon. USRC did offer some over-the-phone help at $75/hr in 15 minute increments which I'll likely take them up on if the new part doesn't fix it. I'm waiting to hear back from them with details. I took apart the gas controller and everything "looked" fine and the valves weren't sticking.
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That's just sleazy shit if you ask me. They can't spend 10 minutes helping you troubleshoot basic stuff, a little manual /troubleshooting guide of 'common' problems. Nope slimy assholes looking to geek every single penny they can out of people. When I find business like this, I don't do business with them anymore. I get it, time is money and all but when you sell a product, you should offer at least some basic help. So you pay them 100 dollars on the phone, nope, sorry, don't know what's wrong, can't help you, thanks for the hundred dollars though.
I dunno man.
Aaron
So it has a pilot light? does the pilot stay lit but it won't light off the main burner when you turn it on? That sounds like a TC issue.
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So it has a pilot light? does the pilot stay lit but it won't light off the main burner when you turn it on? That sounds like a TC issue.
Yes, pilot lights but burner doesn't. Its a combination igniter/flame sensor assembly. I cleaned it up and made sure it has a good ground and ceramic wasn't cracked so it could be failure internal to the assembly. Part isn't that expensive so I ordered a new one and should have it in a few days.
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Most likely the thermocouple is bad, they go out, it happens with pilot light apps. See, the pilot light heats an element up, that 'hot' element tells it, YES there is a pilot light, so it's OK to turn the main gas on. You turn the gas on, if the temp detector says it's ok to do so, the valve opens up, the pilot light ignites the main burner gas and viola you have heat for your beans. When that little sensing element goes bad that gets hot, then it won't send the signal to the main assembly saying it's ok to turn on the gas, therefore when you say gas on, it says, umm NOPE.
Replace that as you said you are and it should hopefully fix the problem.
Again, this is just an armchair troubleshooting, I can't actually TELL you what's wrong without actually looking at it, but from past experiences with burners and stuff, that sounds like the issue. A new assembly is what 30 dollars or so?
Aaron
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Yes but I got the assembly along with new ignition cable for about $50, still reasonable. The thing I like about this roaster is that it’s made in the U S of A and all parts will likely be easy to get at a reasonable price unlike some of those foreign made roasters. Once I get it rolling, those utility beans I just ordered from you will go in for the first try. Can’t wait ;D
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You're absolutely right. Reliability and longevity are under-rated concepts until something breaks and a fix is required.
Sounds hokey, but both my Pasquini Livia espresso machine and Super Jolly grinders are absolute beasts. 4+ shots a day for over 15 years without one single day down on the Livia. I bought the grinder used when Starbux was switching out from manual to automatic machines about the same time. It had a hard life before me. Neither are the most refined or advanced products on the market but they have withstood the tests of time.
Rant mode off. ;D
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I have a super jolly that I had been using to grind beans until I finally put down the $1k for a bunn commercial grinder and it ran flawlessly. I still use it for my espresso's and man can that thing go thru some beans, almost as fast as the commercial one does.
But yes, the concept of Made in the USA is a good one, and the theory behind the repair parts is sound, however sadly US companies can be just as sleazy as foreign ones, however in your case, lets hope parts for them stick around a while.
With that in mind, you might want to spend some time on forums, find out what are 'common items' that need to be replaced on the thing, and stock up on them, have them in hand so when part 3 breaks, you got it, 10 minute swap out and you are back in business, and can then re order that part at leisure, so if a week or two lead time is there it won't kill you for that long.
Aaron
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Bummer, put the new igniter/ flame sensor in today and still no burner ignition. >:( >:(
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Might be time to take the gas valve out, take it apart and clean it. I wonder if there's a way to bench test it.
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Might be time to take the gas valve out, take it apart and clean it. I wonder if there's a way to bench test it.
Yeah I did that last week and everything mechanically "looked" okay, no sticking valves or blockages. But yes, that is my next suspect. I can hear it click when pilot lights but for some reason, it's not opening to let gas flow to main burner. Beyond that, there is the gas valve controller that could have flaked out.
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Might be time to take the gas valve out, take it apart and clean it. I wonder if there's a way to bench test it.
Yeah I did that last week and everything mechanically "looked" okay, no sticking valves or blockages. But yes, that is my next suspect. I can hear it click when pilot lights but for some reason, it's not opening to let gas flow to main burner. Beyond that, there is the gas valve controller that could have flaked out.
Are you sure it's the gas valve you're hearing making the click?
This may be a dumb idea but what about the lines before the gas valve, and the shut-off valve?
What is that gas valve controller you mention? My Ambex has a digital Watlow that is used to set the temp and tells the valve when to close or open. I guess that goes back to my question if you're sure where the 'click' is coming from.
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Yes, there is a definite click coming from the gas control valve which is in a separate location at the back of the roaster from the rest of the electrical/ electronic components housed in a separate enclosure. The Honeywell controller essentially tells the Honeywell gas valve what to do and provides the proper voltage to the valve. It also sends/receives the same to the igniter/flame sensor. All gas lines are free and clear and are equipped with a shutoff valve, gauge, and regulator prior to entering the gas control valve. I've rung out the wires from controller to gas valve (PV and MV/PV) terminals) and are good along with ground. I have 24 VAC at pilot valve (PV) on gas valve like it should be but it is not getting 24 VAC at the main valve (MV) I also do not have continuity from the MV terminal on the controller to MV terminal on gas valve but that wire is routed through the PID so it wouldn't have direct continuity.
I'm guessing your digital Watlow is essentially the same thing as my Solo 4848 Temp controller which I'm calling the PID
I know that's a lot of info. Still scratching my head
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***Houston, we have ignition***
Went ahead and called USRC tech support rather than throwing more new parts at roaster. In less than 30 minutes on the phone, they had me up and running. Apparently the person I bought it from had been monkeying around with the temp controller PID and got it out of whack which is easy to do if you get deep in the menu functions. Aaron, can't wait to try out those utility beans I just got from you to play around a bit before I get down to business. Probably do that tomorrow 8) 8)
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Outstanding! That is such great news.
Now (unless I'm assuming when I shouldn't be) the fun will be in learning the roaster, how it reacts and responds to inputs. You'll do well.
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Yes, gonna burn (not literally) through a lot of beans trying to figure it out. Just did a 2.5 lb roast for a trial run. Good temp control but temp did stall out a bit so I had to step on the gas and adjust damper to finish it out. Dropped beans at 15 minutes and 425 at bean temp thermocouple. Turned out darker than I'd like but not too bad. Thanks for all the help troubleshooting guys!
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Glad it's up and running. Yep if you set the polarity or output to the wrong level on the PID, or depending on what kind it is, the overtemp cutout or whatever you want to call it wrong, it will kill you every time. Im surprised that was not obvious though, it should have shown you the temp it is set at, and what temp it is currently at. But again, changing output polarity's will screw you over unless you know exactly what's going on with it.... This is a GOOD learning experience for you though, not trying to be a smart ass, but getting into the guts of the thing, you have a much better understanding of the process now and any future issues should be easy to figure out.
Learn YOUR machine, your 425 degrees may be a world of difference than MY 425, even though both of us theoretically are measuring at the same point, or think we are >:D. Burn a few lbs of beans, learn what temp is the 'general where I like it temp' for your roast style and then have at it. The utility beans I have sent to you, are NOT bad to drink, rather one dimensional, so you get coffee, with a nice chocolaty flavor, but that's really it, out of them... oh and a nice caff kick too, so don't be too quick to compost them. They might make good christmas presents for people if you don't burn em too badly :D
Aaron
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Glad you got it up and running!
Sorry you couldn't get it figured out on your own but you probably learned a thing or two about your machine which may come in handy down the road.
2.5lb batches is pretty good sized. That'll probably help you work through your stash ;D
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Glad you got it up and running!
Sorry you couldn't get it figured out on your own but you probably learned a thing or two about your machine which may come in handy down the road.
2.5lb batches is pretty good sized. That'll probably help you work through your stash ;D
Yes, this ordeal has definitely allowed me to get to know this machine much better than if it would have worked right off the bat. I did roast 2 smaller batches at a little over a pound each taking notes of all the temps and pressures each minute and those batches came out much better. That will likely be my normal size roast until I find some folks who like my offerings. 8)
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Don't know if there are any similarities in how our roasters have their temp probes situated, but with mine, a 1lb batch will read at least 20* lower than a 3lb batch, so be careful for that if/when you scale up.
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Just an update on the roaster...I added new RTD's for BT and ET and am now using Artisan to monitor roasts. Since I live in a neighborhood, my smoke signals caused lots of interest from neighbors; in this case, a good thing. I must be doing something right because now I have a customer base of about 15 regulars who keep coming back for more. I'll likely roast about 30 pounds just this week alone. Because of this, I have been buying beans in larger quantities(25-50 lb bags) from other sources :(. I really miss the days when buying 10# at a time from members here was a stretch and roasting just for my house on my SC/TO was lots of fun. But I have to say this new adventure has been a blast so far and without this site and the support from its members, I would likely not have jumped on this newer roaster. I'm not really into this as a moneymaker as it is only a fun hobby that is paying for the equipment and allows me all the coffee I could drink for free and still give a away lots of free samples which is how I hooked most of my customers. Thanks guys!
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You are very welcome Alaroast. I am working with UPS on better shipping rates and an alternative to the USPS who have been consistantly F'ing all of us over with horrible service.
So far it looks like I can ship 25 Lbs for about 20 dollars in some areas. Working out the details. If this might work for you, drop me a PM and once I can get your info, I can plug it in and see what I can do for rates to you. If not, then no biggie. I am glad though that we were able to help you get going in the direction you are and i's always nice to hear someone is successful in this coffee thing. Just because you gotten bigger' we still would love to hear from you in the forums, you can never outgrow us! :D
Aaron
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Aaron, I'll still be frequenting this forum as buying from here has always been fun and will still be looking at the offerings (I sent you a PM). There's always a good variety at a great price so ya'll keep up the good work. One neighbor still asks if I can get more of the blueberry :D. Seems like that was an Ethiopian or Tanzanian but can't remember. Also, lots of good knowledge and feedback on all levels so no, I'm not leaving unless I'm kicked off.
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Congrats on your new venture! Never know what this little hobby will grow into.
With a 3Kg roaster it's a little more economical to roast for others than when using a 1lb roaster for sure.
I too have been trying to find shipping alternatives for larger amounts. If you see something offered you like reach out.