Green Coffee Buying Club
Coffee Discussion boards => Hardware & Equipment => Topic started by: Tex on November 19, 2010, 09:38:14 AM
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Back in the day;
New competitive shooters would spend $300 to get an accurized Gold Cup .45 from Bob Chow, when the chief armorer of the U.S. Army Marksmanship Detachment at Ft Benning could sell them an accurized surplus Army .45 for $125. Both guns would hold a 4" grouping at 50 yards while on a mechanical rest.
Some street racers would spend $3000 - $5000 for a new Olds 442 that would go from 0 - 60 in under 5 seconds, while the knowledgeable racers would buy a junker, toss in a blue printed big-block Chevy & 4-speed, and go racing for titles and win.
Similarly, today some folks spend $1000 - $7000 for great espresso machines, while others prefer to build theirs themselves using the same premium quality parts in the expensive factory built espresso machines.
What's my point? Just because you can buy a great looking factory toy, don't bet the farm when you come up against a home-built hot rod in the hands of a knowledgeable builder/user.
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I'm moving this to Hot Topics. ;D
Last night I was awake (wonder why) and was expecting Robert to fall back on this hackneyed debate. You are wrong, but you won't know you're wrong until you actually find a good deal on a machine that you say you don't need or want.
Reading the countless threads on other sites, like HomeBarista, there are people too numerous to count who made the move from PID'd this' and PID'd thats that have all the mods and tuning capability you could want, up to machines that were built that way with an inherent design. And every one of them is glad they did, without looking back.
Are these people all nuts? Are they all too proud to admit they spent $2K they didn't have too?
I'm glad you are truly happy with the results you get from your home-built hot rod, I really am. I want to bookmark this thread and come back to it if/when you buy that Speedster or Synesso Cyncra. We'll talk then.
I don't feel I'm being argumentative and don't intend to sound like it. But then maybe I should because you probably started the tread to get an argument going. I actually hope the thread dies before long; we've been around this mountain often enough.
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Good post Peter. I signed out of Hot Topics for good reason.
Hopefully this thread will die from all the fish not taking the bait.
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I'm moving this to Hot Topics. ;D
Last night I was awake (wonder why) and was expecting Robert to fall back on this hackneyed debate. You are wrong, but you won't know you're wrong until you actually find a good deal on a machine that you say you don't need or want.
Reading the countless threads on other sites, like HomeBarista, there are people too numerous to count who made the move from PID'd this' and PID'd thats that have all the mods and tuning capability you could want, up to machines that were built that way with an inherent design. And every one of them is glad they did, without looking back.
Are these people all nuts? Are they all too proud to admit they spent $2K they didn't have too?
I'm glad you are truly happy with the results you get from your home-built hot rod, I really am. I want to bookmark this thread and come back to it if/when you buy that Speedster or Synesso Cyncra. We'll talk then.
I don't feel I'm being argumentative and don't intend to sound like it. But then maybe I should because you probably started the tread to get an argument going. I actually hope the thread dies before long; we've been around this mountain often enough.
You're not being all that argumentative, not for you at least. ;D But what you've missed is the primary reason for the move to these machines. The knowledgeable ones are buying the convenience of bigger boilers and separate brew/steam boilers, not significantly improved temp stability1. Most of them have no expectations of improvement, they just wanted the bigger/brighter toy.
edited: If you'll Google a bit you'll find lots of studies that show the temp stability of various espresso machines. In those studies you'll see graphs showing the intra-shot temp performance of SBDU. HX, & DB machines. Study those for awhile and tell me about how much better the expensive machines are!
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Most of them have no expectations of improvement, they just wanted the bigger/brighter toy.
Is that what you were thinking yesterday when you mentioned the possibility of a Speedster or GS3?
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I think somebody should PID Tex's keyboard.
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Most of them have no expectations of improvement, they just wanted the bigger/brighter toy.
Is that what you were thinking yesterday when you mentioned the possibility of a Speedster or GS3?
Yes, :-[ but I don't really expect the Whiz Bang 300's to make significantly better coffee than either my modded Gaggia or my modded HX 1-group. I do expect it to make better coffee, but $4000 better? Not likely!
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Most of them have no expectations of improvement, they just wanted the bigger/brighter toy.
Is that what you were thinking yesterday when you mentioned the possibility of a Speedster or GS3?
Yes, :-[ but I don't really expect the Whiz Bang 300's to make significantly better coffee than either my modded Gaggia or my modded HX 1-group. I do expect it to make better coffee, but $4000 better? Not likely!
You will succumb to the shiny toy! The devil will make you do it.
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I think somebody should PID Tex's keyboard.
Now that I'd spend the extra money for BW! I go through keyboards in ~1 year - I pound on them as a result of learning to type on a manual Remington Rand business typewriter six decades or so ago. Then the old IBM finger maulers taught me to pound even harder, so now these plastic POS don't have a chance of surviving! ::)
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Most of them have no expectations of improvement, they just wanted the bigger/brighter toy.
Is that what you were thinking yesterday when you mentioned the possibility of a Speedster or GS3?
Yes, :-[ but I don't really expect the Whiz Bang 300's to make significantly better coffee than either my modded Gaggia or my modded HX 1-group. I do expect it to make better coffee, but $4000 better? Not likely!
You will succumb to the shiny toy! The devil will make you do it.
That's a gimme - bet the farm on it! I'd have it now, but Mrs T insists on all spare change going into our as-yet-unborn grandson's college fund. I think she's planning on the bugger going to Harvard!
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Tex
A happy upcoming Thanksgiving to you and your family.
Which machine will you be using to keep all of your guests at the big dinner happily caffeinated with espresso based drinks following the turkey?
***note to self*** Why are you helping this thread live???????
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Tex
A happy upcoming Thanksgiving to you and your family.
Which machine will you be using to keep all of your guests at the big dinner happily caffeinated with espresso based drinks following the turkey?
***note to self*** Why are you helping this thread live???????
I'll be using the HX most likely, simply because of its steam capacity. I'll also be using a Silex vac pot because folks like its theatrical nature.
A happy upcoming Thanksgiving to you and yours as well!
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Back in the day;
New competitive shooters would spend $300 to get an accurized Gold Cup .45 from Bob Chow, when the chief armorer of the U.S. Army Marksmanship Detachment at Ft Benning could sell them an accurized surplus Army .45 for $125. Both guns would hold a 4" grouping at 50 yards while on a mechanical rest.
Some street racers would spend $3000 - $5000 for a new Olds 442 that would go from 0 - 60 in under 5 seconds, while the knowledgeable racers would buy a junker, toss in a blue printed big-block Chevy & 4-speed, and go racing for titles and win.
Similarly, today some folks spend $1000 - $7000 for great espresso machines, while others prefer to build theirs themselves using the same premium quality parts in the expensive factory built espresso machines.
What's my point? Just because you can buy a great looking factory toy, don't bet the farm when you come up against a home-built hot rod in the hands of a knowledgeable builder/user.
You. Are. Funny.
In your mind... Is securing a quality weapon from a well respected commercial master gunsmith focused on more than just accuracy, wrong?
In your mind... Does being handy and buying a junker guarantee winning races? If your theory is correct, that junkers win races, maybe it comes down to some folks really like the seats in the Olds 442.
In your mind... Is it wrong to buy a stock espresso machine built from quality parts, or does the machine gain magical properties if you buy all the exact same parts and put them together yourself?
Your last sentence (where you make your point) is a hoot. Are you trying to make a loose connection that spending a certain amount of money automatically turns something into a 'toy'.
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Back in the day;
New competitive shooters would spend $300 to get an accurized Gold Cup .45 from Bob Chow, when the chief armorer of the U.S. Army Marksmanship Detachment at Ft Benning could sell them an accurized surplus Army .45 for $125. Both guns would hold a 4" grouping at 50 yards while on a mechanical rest.
Some street racers would spend $3000 - $5000 for a new Olds 442 that would go from 0 - 60 in under 5 seconds, while the knowledgeable racers would buy a junker, toss in a blue printed big-block Chevy & 4-speed, and go racing for titles and win.
Similarly, today some folks spend $1000 - $7000 for great espresso machines, while others prefer to build theirs themselves using the same premium quality parts in the expensive factory built espresso machines.
What's my point? Just because you can buy a great looking factory toy, don't bet the farm when you come up against a home-built hot rod in the hands of a knowledgeable builder/user.
You. Are. Funny.
In your mind... Is securing a quality weapon from a well respected commercial master gunsmith focused on more than just accuracy, wrong?
In your mind... Does being handy and buying a junker guarantee winning races? If your theory is correct, that junkers win races, maybe it comes down to some folks really like the seats in the Olds 442.
In your mind... Is it wrong to buy a stock espresso machine built from quality parts, or does the machine gain magical properties if you buy all the exact same parts and put them together yourself?
Your last sentence (where you make your point) is a hoot. Are you trying to make a loose connection that spending a certain amount of money automatically turns something into a 'toy'.
I've got to find you that animated GIF of the brass billy goat with his balls argued off! ;D My point was, wherever you get your machine, don't assume that factory iron is best. Skill tops deep pockets. Oh, and those factory toys - I've only seen a few of them delivered in tuned condition, so even if you can afford the Whiz Bang 300 you'd better know how to turn a wrench. ::)
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My point was, wherever you get your machine, don't assume that factory iron is best. Skill tops deep pockets.
Now just imagine, matching your amazing skills with a deep pockets machine.
One other question Robert; do you ever buy espresso beans from a top roaster, or do you limit what you call great espresso to what you can roast pooch yourself? >:D I guess that's a semi-serious question BTW.
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My point was, wherever you get your machine, don't assume that factory iron is best. Skill tops deep pockets.
Now just imagine, matching your amazing skills with a deep pockets machine.
One other question Robert; do you ever buy espresso beans from a top roaster, or do you limit what you call great espresso to what you can roast pooch yourself? >:D I guess that's a semi-serious question BTW.
I haven't bought pre-roasted beans in a long time. It's not that some aren't great, it's just that I prefer concentrating on improving my skills. As for my skills applied to an expensive machine, why bother. When I buy my GS3 it'll be with the understanding that it's not going to be better than what I already have, and as the 1st Mrs T taught me the hard way, beauty might distract one from the ugly nature of a beast!
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My point was, wherever you get your machine, don't assume that factory iron is best. Skill tops deep pockets. Oh, and those factory toys - I've only seen a few of them delivered in tuned condition, so even if you can afford the Whiz Bang 300 you'd better know how to turn a wrench. ::)
I try not to make too many assumptions.
I think we can agree that skill is important, but how about applying equal skill on a low level steam-toy vs a deep pockets machine.
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When I buy my GS3 it'll be with the understanding that it's not going to be better than what I already have...
Are you serious?
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When I buy my GS3 it'll be with the understanding that it's not going to be better than what I already have...
Are you serious?
He must be trolling, and we're taking the bait by keeping this nonsense going.
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When I buy my GS3 it'll be with the understanding that it's not going to be better than what I already have...
Are you serious?
He must be trolling, and we're taking the bait by keeping this nonsense going.
I always like to know the level of espresso insanity, kind of like 'Hey, it looks like we just shifted to Texcon 4'.
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"Abort course! Change vector 163a! On a collision course with Planet Goofy in 30sec.!"
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I wonder if you counted reasonable tech dollar/hour on time spent, if at least one or two Tex machines wouldn't move into the high budget category.
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My point was, wherever you get your machine, don't assume that factory iron is best. Skill tops deep pockets. Oh, and those factory toys - I've only seen a few of them delivered in tuned condition, so even if you can afford the Whiz Bang 300 you'd better know how to turn a wrench. ::)
I try not to make too many assumptions.
I think we can agree that skill is important, but how about applying equal skill on a low level steam-toy vs a deep pockets machine.
A skilled barista will make better coffee regardless of the device being used. And given a certain skill level the better machine is easier to use. The trick is to have enough experience on all types of machines so one can assess a machine and its capabilities.
edited: Consider the relative value of my machines. A new Classic or Silvia with all the bells and whistles I put in would cost ~$900, and a new HX similar to my ES-1A would tip the scales at >$3000. Not exactly budget class equipment and I guarantee the performance is top notch.
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edited: Consider the relative value of my machines. A new Classic or Silvia with all the bells and whistles I put in would cost ~$900, and a new HX similar to my ES-1A would tip the scales at >$3000. Not exactly budget class equipment and I guarantee the performance is top notch.
I think ecc was saying to add in the cost of labor performing the mods too.
Just out of curiosity, mainly because I don't know much about the ES-1A, what makes it comparable to a $3K machine? And which machines would you compare it too?
By jumping to $3K, are you saying it has features that $2K HX machines don't have?
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edited: Consider the relative value of my machines. A new Classic or Silvia with all the bells and whistles I put in would cost ~$900, and a new HX similar to my ES-1A would tip the scales at >$3000. Not exactly budget class equipment and I guarantee the performance is top notch.
I think ecc was saying to add in the cost of labor performing the mods too.
Just out of curiosity, mainly because I don't know much about the ES-1A, what makes it comparable to a $3K machine? And which machines would you compare it too?
By jumping to $3K, are you saying it has features that $2K HX machines don't have?
Sorry, there aren't any $2000 commercial HX machines built to the same standards.
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edited: Consider the relative value of my machines. A new Classic or Silvia with all the bells and whistles I put in would cost ~$900, and a new HX similar to my ES-1A would tip the scales at >$3000. Not exactly budget class equipment and I guarantee the performance is top notch.
Just out of curiosity, mainly because I don't know much about the ES-1A, what makes it comparable to a $3K machine? And which machines would you compare it too?
By jumping to $3K, which features does this Bunn have that $2K HX machines don't have?
Sorry, there aren't any $2000 commercial HX machines built to the same standards.
That reply doesn't answer the questions, buddy. Which $3K machines is it comparable to, and what does the Bunn have that $2K HX machines don't have?
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The next level of technical espresso geekdom I want to explore is variable times & pressures with pre-infusion. Are you going to tackle that with a SBDU? No, I'm not trying to argue, and I realize that is something no home/semi-commercial single head machine allows for right now .... just wondering if that's something on your Tex-dar...??
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The next level of technical espresso geekdom I want to explore is variable times & pressures with pre-infusion. Are you going to tackle that with a SBDU? No, I'm not trying to argue, and I realize that is something no home/semi-commercial single head machine allows for right now .... just wondering if that's something on your Tex-dar...??
That seems to be the geek issue du jour, doesn't it? I'm not sure most folks even understand what it is and what its purpose is.
Preinfusion is having a way to let line pressure water soak the puck before the shot begins. Its purpose is to reduce channeling in the puck by wetting the grounds, letting the puck swell to fill the filter before the 9 bar pressure from the pumps hits it. It was a big thing back in the 90's when some commercial makers added it to their machines.
It seems to me the better way to protect the puck is via pressure ramping; using an air chamber to buffer the 9 bar pressure. Some folks have done this to Silvia's, but I've never seen the results presented as a graph showing the ramping effect.
BTW: My Bunn ES-1A has both features, and you can turn the preinfusion on or off as you wish.
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The next level of technical espresso geekdom I want to explore is variable times & pressures with pre-infusion. Are you going to tackle that with a SBDU? No, I'm not trying to argue, and I realize that is something no home/semi-commercial single head machine allows for right now .... just wondering if that's something on your Tex-dar...??
Two words.
Lever machines.
You can go active or passive, decide real time on amount of either or a blend of both.
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edited: Consider the relative value of my machines. A new Classic or Silvia with all the bells and whistles I put in would cost ~$900, and a new HX similar to my ES-1A would tip the scales at >$3000. Not exactly budget class equipment and I guarantee the performance is top notch.
Just out of curiosity, mainly because I don't know much about the ES-1A, what makes it comparable to a $3K machine? And which machines would you compare it too?
By jumping to $3K, which features does this Bunn have that $2K HX machines don't have?
Sorry, there aren't any $2000 commercial HX machines built to the same standards.
That reply doesn't answer the questions, buddy. Which $3K machines is it comparable to, and what does the Bunn have that $2K HX machines don't have?
I did answer you, but I don't believe you know enough about commercial machines to understand that a more robustly built machine costs more, and the ES-1A is built like a tank. Tear apart a commercial Futurmat, Reneka, Cimbali, CMA, Elktra, Faema, and compare them to a any $2000 prosumer machine and the difference is readily apparent.
Any commercial 1-group HX machine costs >$3000 new - look it up yourself.
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This time around your reply is closer to an answer. To reply as you did the first time by saying, "Sorry, there aren't any $2000 commercial HX machines built to the same standards," is not an answer.
Then to top it off you insult me by making assumptions on what I may or may not know about commercial machines... that's why I'm asking. Thanks for being so kind and helpful.
OK, all that aside, apart from the Bunn being built like a tank... let's say the Bunn will last 15 years and the $2K machine will last only 5 years. I will try and ask again, maybe you're feeling kinder and helpfuller now; while the Bunn and a $2K machine are both working properly, what does the Bunn offer that a $2K machine doesn't?
I get it that the Bunn is built like a tank. Is that the only thing that would make it better, or is it easier to work with, does it make any better shots? Apart from it being a tank, does it have any features an Andrea Premium doesn't?
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Two words.
Lever machines.
You can go active or passive, decide real time on amount of either or a blend of both.
yea,, I somehow knew you would respond. Right after I posted, I realized a lever machine is that "hole in my espresso soul" that needs to be filled... Ms. Dogg is gonna pitch a fit when the box box with a PVL or some such device makes its appearance....
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yea,, I somehow knew you would respond. Right after I posted, I realized a lever machine is that "hole in my espresso soul" that needs to be filled... Ms. Dogg is gonna pitch a fit when the box box with a PVL or some such device makes its appearance....
There are ways of dealing with this.
"Hon, the Lusso people asked me to trial it for a SE Barista sub-competition in Atlanta, Spring 2012."
"I am trying it here at home so that I can adequately train the baristas at the shop for a Summer 2011 launch."
Or, accept the inevitable. Peechdogg => Dogghaus. I doubt that she would stay mad that long and the lever is probably worth it. One for the team.
Or, that's how I see it from way up here. Let me know which works.
B|Java
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Peter
Here is some information I found in a very quick search.
http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/bunn-es-1a-comes-back-to-life-t4505.html (http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/bunn-es-1a-comes-back-to-life-t4505.html)
http://reviews.ebay.com/Bunn-ES-1A-HX-espresso-machine_W0QQugidZ10000000012129597 (http://reviews.ebay.com/Bunn-ES-1A-HX-espresso-machine_W0QQugidZ10000000012129597)
From this article comes “What should a Bunn ES-1A cost? Depending on condition & completeness; $350 - $550 is a fair price.â€
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Alt/alt.coffee/2007-10/msg00271.html (http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Alt/alt.coffee/2007-10/msg00271.html)
It’s a Gaggia machine that’s no longer made and some parts might be hard to obtain. I’d prefer an Electra but I’m sure this can kick out some nice coffee. If someone wants to spend $3000 for one of these with no service or possibly no replacement parts then I have an old Edsel to sell them to se as their primary transportation.
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This time around your reply is closer to an answer. To reply as you did the first time by saying, "Sorry, there aren't any $2000 commercial HX machines built to the same standards," is not an answer.
Then to top it off you insult me by making assumptions on what I may or may not know about commercial machines... that's why I'm asking. Thanks for being so kind and helpful.
OK, all that aside, apart from the Bunn being built like a tank... let's say the Bunn will last 15 years and the $2K machine will last only 5 years. I will try and ask again, maybe you're feeling kinder and helpfuller now; while the Bunn and a $2K machine are both working properly, what does the Bunn offer that a $2K machine doesn't?
I get it that the Bunn is built like a tank. Is that the only thing that would make it better, or is it easier to work with, does it make any better shots? Apart from it being a tank, does it have any features an Andrea Premium doesn't?
The $2000 & $3000 machines will probably make the same cup of coffee; assuming they're in proper working order and the operator knows how to use them. What the extra money buys is a machine built to withstand the day-in day-out constant use that a commercial machine is built for.
A properly tuned inexpensive machine will pull the same shot a $3000 machine will. Figure it out - the brew temp & pressure are all the machine is contributing to the process. The coffee used and the operators expertise is transferable from one machine to another. So if I've got a machine that can hold the correct temperature and pressure for the duration of the shot, that's all I need. Everything else is eye candy!
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Peter
Here is some information I found in a very quick search.
[url]http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/bunn-es-1a-comes-back-to-life-t4505.html[/url] ([url]http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/bunn-es-1a-comes-back-to-life-t4505.html[/url])
[url]http://reviews.ebay.com/Bunn-ES-1A-HX-espresso-machine_W0QQugidZ10000000012129597[/url] ([url]http://reviews.ebay.com/Bunn-ES-1A-HX-espresso-machine_W0QQugidZ10000000012129597[/url])
From this article comes “What should a Bunn ES-1A cost? Depending on condition & completeness; $350 - $550 is a fair price.â€
[url]http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Alt/alt.coffee/2007-10/msg00271.html[/url] ([url]http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Alt/alt.coffee/2007-10/msg00271.html[/url])
It’s a Gaggia machine that’s no longer made and some parts might be hard to obtain. I’d prefer an Electra but I’m sure this can kick out some nice coffee. If someone wants to spend $3000 for one of these with no service or possibly no replacement parts then I have an old Edsel to sell them to se as their primary transportation.
There are no parts on the Bunn ES-1A that aren't readily available (it's just a Faema design built by Futurmat) - that's why they're so much more attractive than machines using hard to find & pricey proprietary parts.
And if you'll look at my post I said relative cost for a comparable NEW machine - and those cost ~$3000.
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Sorry about the parts mistake. It's the machine itself thats relatively hard to find.
We can argue till the Mayan calendar ends in a couple of years along with the end of the earth about temperature stability of tiny boiler machines PID'd or not over the course of multiple shots. We will have to totally disagree that those machines are capable of doing anything close to what you say they can do. 1500 W or not you can not make that small mass stable quickly after refilling most of the entire boiler contents.
Why do you need a heavy duty commercial machine when you can pull perfect shot after shot after shot with your Gaggia?
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yea,, I somehow knew you would respond. Right after I posted, I realized a lever machine is that "hole in my espresso soul" that needs to be filled... Ms. Dogg is gonna pitch a fit when the box box with a PVL or some such device makes its appearance....
There are ways of dealing with this.
"Hon, the Lusso people asked me to trial it for a SE Barista sub-competition in Atlanta, Spring 2012."
"I am trying it here at home so that I can adequately train the baristas at the shop for a Summer 2011 launch."
Or, accept the inevitable. Peechdogg => Dogghaus. I doubt that she would stay mad that long and the lever is probably worth it. One for the team.
Or, that's how I see it from way up here. Let me know which works.
B|Java
Ummm... I've already done the "they asked me to demo the machine" trick... asking forgiveness with a fine espresso in hand is the best way... asking permission is just plain stoopid, IMO....
More to follow, I'm sure...
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Two words.
Lever machines.
You can go active or passive, decide real time on amount of either or a blend of both.
yea,, I somehow knew you would respond. Right after I posted, I realized a lever machine is that "hole in my espresso soul" that needs to be filled... Ms. Dogg is gonna pitch a fit when the box box with a PVL or some such device makes its appearance....
I tried not to but I'm glad others threw the 'lever rabbit hole' at me when they did. I'm enjoying it, I bet you do too. ;-)
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The next level of technical espresso geekdom I want to explore is variable times & pressures with pre-infusion. Are you going to tackle that with a SBDU? No, I'm not trying to argue, and I realize that is something no home/semi-commercial single head machine allows for right now .... just wondering if that's something on your Tex-dar...??
That seems to be the geek issue du jour, doesn't it? I'm not sure most folks even understand what it is and what its purpose is.
Preinfusion is having a way to let line pressure water soak the puck before the shot begins. Its purpose is to reduce channeling in the puck by wetting the grounds, letting the puck swell to fill the filter before the 9 bar pressure from the pumps hits it. It was a big thing back in the 90's when some commercial makers added it to their machines.
It seems to me the better way to protect the puck is via pressure ramping; using an air chamber to buffer the 9 bar pressure. Some folks have done this to Silvia's, but I've never seen the results presented as a graph showing the ramping effect.
BTW: My Bunn ES-1A has both features, and you can turn the preinfusion on or off as you wish.
Pardon me for asking you to type all this out, :angel:. Can you tell me briefly how the Bunn manages both these features?
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This time around your reply is closer to an answer. To reply as you did the first time by saying, "Sorry, there aren't any $2000 commercial HX machines built to the same standards," is not an answer.
Then to top it off you insult me by making assumptions on what I may or may not know about commercial machines... that's why I'm asking. Thanks for being so kind and helpful.
OK, all that aside, apart from the Bunn being built like a tank... let's say the Bunn will last 15 years and the $2K machine will last only 5 years. I will try and ask again, maybe you're feeling kinder and helpfuller now; while the Bunn and a $2K machine are both working properly, what does the Bunn offer that a $2K machine doesn't?
I get it that the Bunn is built like a tank. Is that the only thing that would make it better, or is it easier to work with, does it make any better shots? Apart from it being a tank, does it have any features an Andrea Premium doesn't?
The $2000 & $3000 machines will probably make the same cup of coffee; assuming they're in proper working order and the operator knows how to use them. What the extra money buys is a machine built to withstand the day-in day-out constant use that a commercial machine is built for.
A properly tuned inexpensive machine will pull the same shot a $3000 machine will. Figure it out - the brew temp & pressure are all the machine is contributing to the process. The coffee used and the operators expertise is transferable from one machine to another. So if I've got a machine that can hold the correct temperature and pressure for the duration of the shot, that's all I need. Everything else is eye candy!
Well if we can make some fair and reasonable assumptions (see below) in order to do a fair and reasonable comparison between your never ending illogical proposition...
Assumption #1 - The operator is a skilled espresso machine man of the house.
Assumption #2 - The operator owns two machines, one is a $200 machine and it is in proper working order and tuned as best as possible, the other machine is a $2000 - $3000 machine.
Assumption #3 - The operator is responsible for pulling multiple back to back shots to entertain 3 of his buddies that came over to see his new espresso machine. For sake of argument, the operator has to pull 8 shots (2 per person) within 20mins.
Assumption #4 - The operator then has to make 3 x lattes for the wives/girlfriends of his buddies who just showed up and who have heard about the espresso machine and are excited because they just llllluuuuuuuuuuvvvvvvv latte's. All three of them are just dropping by to say goodbye to their husbands/boyfriends before they head off to a movie but they have 10mins before they have to go - so that's 3 x lattes in less than 10mins.
Is the challenge of 8 x shots in 20mins followed by 3 x latte's in 10mins an unlikely scenario, uhmmmmmm I do it all the time. And I tell people to plan for lots of drinks when they are choosing an espresso machine. Eventually, even hermits have guests.
So, can the $200 machine take care of the above?
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The next level of technical espresso geekdom I want to explore is variable times & pressures with pre-infusion. Are you going to tackle that with a SBDU? No, I'm not trying to argue, and I realize that is something no home/semi-commercial single head machine allows for right now .... just wondering if that's something on your Tex-dar...??
That seems to be the geek issue du jour, doesn't it? I'm not sure most folks even understand what it is and what its purpose is.
Preinfusion is having a way to let line pressure water soak the puck before the shot begins. Its purpose is to reduce channeling in the puck by wetting the grounds, letting the puck swell to fill the filter before the 9 bar pressure from the pumps hits it. It was a big thing back in the 90's when some commercial makers added it to their machines.
It seems to me the better way to protect the puck is via pressure ramping; using an air chamber to buffer the 9 bar pressure. Some folks have done this to Silvia's, but I've never seen the results presented as a graph showing the ramping effect.
BTW: My Bunn ES-1A has both features, and you can turn the preinfusion on or off as you wish.
Pardon me for asking you to type all this out, :angel:. Can you tell me briefly how the Bunn manages both these features?
The Faema/Futurmat E61-type group has an expansion chamber that permits the pressure to ramp up during a shot. It's one of the often unsung features of an E61 group.
The ES-1A manual describes how pre-infusion works (pg 12).
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This time around your reply is closer to an answer. To reply as you did the first time by saying, "Sorry, there aren't any $2000 commercial HX machines built to the same standards," is not an answer.
Then to top it off you insult me by making assumptions on what I may or may not know about commercial machines... that's why I'm asking. Thanks for being so kind and helpful.
OK, all that aside, apart from the Bunn being built like a tank... let's say the Bunn will last 15 years and the $2K machine will last only 5 years. I will try and ask again, maybe you're feeling kinder and helpfuller now; while the Bunn and a $2K machine are both working properly, what does the Bunn offer that a $2K machine doesn't?
I get it that the Bunn is built like a tank. Is that the only thing that would make it better, or is it easier to work with, does it make any better shots? Apart from it being a tank, does it have any features an Andrea Premium doesn't?
The $2000 & $3000 machines will probably make the same cup of coffee; assuming they're in proper working order and the operator knows how to use them. What the extra money buys is a machine built to withstand the day-in day-out constant use that a commercial machine is built for.
A properly tuned inexpensive machine will pull the same shot a $3000 machine will. Figure it out - the brew temp & pressure are all the machine is contributing to the process. The coffee used and the operators expertise is transferable from one machine to another. So if I've got a machine that can hold the correct temperature and pressure for the duration of the shot, that's all I need. Everything else is eye candy!
Well if we can make some fair and reasonable assumptions (see below) in order to do a fair and reasonable comparison between your never ending illogical proposition...
Assumption #1 - The operator is a skilled espresso machine man of the house.
Assumption #2 - The operator owns two machines, one is a $200 machine and it is in proper working order and tuned as best as possible, the other machine is a $2000 - $3000 machine.
Assumption #3 - The operator is responsible for pulling multiple back to back shots to entertain 3 of his buddies that came over to see his new espresso machine. For sake of argument, the operator has to pull 8 shots (2 per person) within 20mins.
Assumption #4 - The operator then has to make 3 x lattes for the wives/girlfriends of his buddies who just showed up and who have heard about the espresso machine and are excited because they just llllluuuuuuuuuuvvvvvvv latte's. All three of them are just dropping by to say goodbye to their husbands/boyfriends before they head off to a movie but they have 10mins before they have to go - so that's 3 x lattes in less than 10mins.
Is the challenge of 8 x shots in 20mins followed by 3 x latte's in 10mins an unlikely scenario, uhmmmmmm I do it all the time. And I tell people to plan for lots of drinks when they are choosing an espresso machine. Eventually, even hermits have guests.
So, can the $200 machine take care of the above?
I must be making my points because you keep moving the target.
I'm talking about pulling shots of espresso; that's all I've ever talked about. I've said that multiple frou-frou drinks are a different situation, one in which the SBDU machine cannot compare with HX & DB machines.
Please limit your posts to the topic of the original post - making quality espresso. We can discuss frou-frou drinks in another thread if you wish?
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Two words.
Lever machines.
You can go active or passive, decide real time on amount of either or a blend of both.
yea,, I somehow knew you would respond. Right after I posted, I realized a lever machine is that "hole in my espresso soul" that needs to be filled... Ms. Dogg is gonna pitch a fit when the box box with a PVL or some such device makes its appearance....
I tried not to but I'm glad others threw the 'lever rabbit hole' at me when they did. I'm enjoying it, I bet you do too. ;-)
I have owned 15 or so prosumer and commercial espresso machines. Everything from various semi-auto Isomacs and Rancilios to levers from Elektra, Olympia, San Marco, Conti and Carimali. After owning as many machines as I have, I can absolutely say that levers allow the barista more control. They take much more time to master, but the control you will eventually have over your shots is not even comparable.
+1 on the lever comment!
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Two words.
Lever machines.
You can go active or passive, decide real time on amount of either or a blend of both.
yea,, I somehow knew you would respond. Right after I posted, I realized a lever machine is that "hole in my espresso soul" that needs to be filled... Ms. Dogg is gonna pitch a fit when the box box with a PVL or some such device makes its appearance....
I tried not to but I'm glad others threw the 'lever rabbit hole' at me when they did. I'm enjoying it, I bet you do too. ;-)
I have owned 15 or so prosumer and commercial espresso machines. Everything from various semi-auto Isomacs and Rancilios to levers from Elektra, Olympia, San Marco, Conti and Carimali. After owning as many machines as I have, I can absolutely say that levers allow the barista more control. They take much more time to master, but the control you will eventually have over your shots is not even comparable.
+1 on the lever comment!
I wish I'd kept the Rancilio lever (CMA) I rebuilt a bit longer - it seemed to have a lot of promise. Unfortunately, with my bursitis pulling a lever just wasn't in the cards for me. But I'm still on the lookout for my Visacrem VX, and if I find one bursitis be damned, I'll have it in my kitchen. 8)
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Well if we can make some fair and reasonable assumptions (see below) in order to do a fair and reasonable comparison between your never ending illogical proposition...
Assumption #1 - The operator is a skilled espresso machine man of the house.
Assumption #2 - The operator owns two machines, one is a $200 machine and it is in proper working order and tuned as best as possible, the other machine is a $2000 - $3000 machine.
Assumption #3 - The operator is responsible for pulling multiple back to back shots to entertain 3 of his buddies that came over to see his new espresso machine. For sake of argument, the operator has to pull 8 shots (2 per person) within 20mins.
Assumption #4 - The operator then has to make 3 x lattes for the wives/girlfriends of his buddies who just showed up and who have heard about the espresso machine and are excited because they just llllluuuuuuuuuuvvvvvvv latte's. All three of them are just dropping by to say goodbye to their husbands/boyfriends before they head off to a movie but they have 10mins before they have to go - so that's 3 x lattes in less than 10mins.
Is the challenge of 8 x shots in 20mins followed by 3 x latte's in 10mins an unlikely scenario, uhmmmmmm I do it all the time. And I tell people to plan for lots of drinks when they are choosing an espresso machine. Eventually, even hermits have guests.
So, can the $200 machine take care of the above?
Let me take a stab at this one since I currently own 5 commercial 2 group machines, an Elektra consumer machine and 5 consumer Gaggias.
The short answer is No!
Can I get a decent shot on my Gaggias, yes and I do most of the time. However as you stated I am not going to be able to pull shot after shot without waiting for the machine to stabilize again and I cannot steam milk and pull a shot at the same time. That's my biggest beef with most consumer machines. You have to let the espresso sit for a couple minutes while you wait for the boiler to get hot enough to steam the milk. Given a choice I think most people would choose a commercial machine if they have the space for it and the money to buy one. With that said a Gaggia (with all the mods) is a good machine to learn on and can pull consistent shots. Just as a SC/TO can roast some great coffee....but cannot compete in quantity and reliability with a commercial roaster.
Great discussion though!!
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Maybe that's why Tex likes to poo-poo the froo-froo... does he not want to make them because he can't? ;D
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Well if we can make some fair and reasonable assumptions (see below) in order to do a fair and reasonable comparison between your never ending illogical proposition...
Assumption #1 - The operator is a skilled espresso machine man of the house.
Assumption #2 - The operator owns two machines, one is a $200 machine and it is in proper working order and tuned as best as possible, the other machine is a $2000 - $3000 machine.
Assumption #3 - The operator is responsible for pulling multiple back to back shots to entertain 3 of his buddies that came over to see his new espresso machine. For sake of argument, the operator has to pull 8 shots (2 per person) within 20mins.
Assumption #4 - The operator then has to make 3 x lattes for the wives/girlfriends of his buddies who just showed up and who have heard about the espresso machine and are excited because they just llllluuuuuuuuuuvvvvvvv latte's. All three of them are just dropping by to say goodbye to their husbands/boyfriends before they head off to a movie but they have 10mins before they have to go - so that's 3 x lattes in less than 10mins.
Is the challenge of 8 x shots in 20mins followed by 3 x latte's in 10mins an unlikely scenario, uhmmmmmm I do it all the time. And I tell people to plan for lots of drinks when they are choosing an espresso machine. Eventually, even hermits have guests.
So, can the $200 machine take care of the above?
Let me take a stab at this one since I currently own 5 commercial 2 group machines, an Elektra consumer machine and 5 consumer Gaggias.
The short answer is No!
Can I get a decent shot on my Gaggias, yes and I do most of the time. However as you stated I am not going to be able to pull shot after shot without waiting for the machine to stabilize again and I cannot steam milk and pull a shot at the same time. That's my biggest beef with most consumer machines. You have to let the espresso sit for a couple minutes while you wait for the boiler to get hot enough to steam the milk. Given a choice I think most people would choose a commercial machine if they have the space for it and the money to buy one. With that said a Gaggia (with all the mods) is a good machine to learn on and can pull consistent shots. Just as a SC/TO can roast some great coffee....but cannot compete in quantity and reliability with a commercial roaster.
Great discussion though!!
It takes 30 - 45 seconds for a Gaggia to go from brew temp (203°F) to steam temp (300°F). Maybe you ought to send me your Gaggia to look at Larry, a couple of minutes would indicate a very sick machine. 8)
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Maybe that's why Tex likes to poo-poo the froo-froo... does he not want to make them because he can't? ;D
Slightly lactose intolerant if I overdo it - I literally poo-poo the frou-frou! ;D
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I must be making my points because you keep moving the target.
I'm talking about pulling shots of espresso; that's all I've ever talked about. I've said that multiple frou-frou drinks are a different situation, one in which the SBDU machine cannot compare with HX & DB machines.
Please limit your posts to the topic of the original post - making quality espresso. We can discuss frou-frou drinks in another thread if you wish?
Hahaha, that's so funny...
Because I had to go back to see what your original post was (I included it at the bottom of this post so you don't have to go back to your first post) and then to be sure I wasn't confused I had to look at the title of this entire thread, (I'll save you from looking up, waaaaaay up, it says 'high budget or low budget espresso equipment) which leaves me scratching my head thinking the post I made fits into your thread... doesn't it? Or did you really mean your thread title to say 'Please don't apply logic in this thread, everyone must agree that my Gaggia's are dragon slayers'.
So, for clarity, is this thread about racing junkers, spending money, focusing on quality espresso, or selling Gaggia's?
Read your initial post and let me know...
"Back in the day;
New competitive shooters would spend $300 to get an accurized Gold Cup .45 from Bob Chow, when the chief armorer of the U.S. Army Marksmanship Detachment at Ft Benning could sell them an accurized surplus Army .45 for $125. Both guns would hold a 4" grouping at 50 yards while on a mechanical rest.
Some street racers would spend $3000 - $5000 for a new Olds 442 that would go from 0 - 60 in under 5 seconds, while the knowledgeable racers would buy a junker, toss in a blue printed big-block Chevy & 4-speed, and go racing for titles and win.
Similarly, today some folks spend $1000 - $7000 for great espresso machines, while others prefer to build theirs themselves using the same premium quality parts in the expensive factory built espresso machines.
What's my point? Just because you can buy a great looking factory toy, don't bet the farm when you come up against a home-built hot rod in the hands of a knowledgeable builder/user."
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Well if we can make some fair and reasonable assumptions (see below) in order to do a fair and reasonable comparison between your never ending illogical proposition...
Assumption #1 - The operator is a skilled espresso machine man of the house.
Assumption #2 - The operator owns two machines, one is a $200 machine and it is in proper working order and tuned as best as possible, the other machine is a $2000 - $3000 machine.
Assumption #3 - The operator is responsible for pulling multiple back to back shots to entertain 3 of his buddies that came over to see his new espresso machine. For sake of argument, the operator has to pull 8 shots (2 per person) within 20mins.
Assumption #4 - The operator then has to make 3 x lattes for the wives/girlfriends of his buddies who just showed up and who have heard about the espresso machine and are excited because they just llllluuuuuuuuuuvvvvvvv latte's. All three of them are just dropping by to say goodbye to their husbands/boyfriends before they head off to a movie but they have 10mins before they have to go - so that's 3 x lattes in less than 10mins.
Is the challenge of 8 x shots in 20mins followed by 3 x latte's in 10mins an unlikely scenario, uhmmmmmm I do it all the time. And I tell people to plan for lots of drinks when they are choosing an espresso machine. Eventually, even hermits have guests.
So, can the $200 machine take care of the above?
Let me take a stab at this one since I currently own 5 commercial 2 group machines, an Elektra consumer machine and 5 consumer Gaggias.
The short answer is No!
Can I get a decent shot on my Gaggias, yes and I do most of the time. However as you stated I am not going to be able to pull shot after shot without waiting for the machine to stabilize again and I cannot steam milk and pull a shot at the same time. That's my biggest beef with most consumer machines. You have to let the espresso sit for a couple minutes while you wait for the boiler to get hot enough to steam the milk. Given a choice I think most people wou\d choose a commercial machine if they have the space for it and the money to buy one. With that said a Gaggia (with all the mods) is a good machine to learn on and can pull consistent shots. Just as a SC/TO can roast some great coffee....but cannot compete in quantity and reliability with a commercial roaster.
Great discussion though!!
Milo - That is a very balanced reply and one that fits with what those I know with various machines have experienced.
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It takes 30 - 45 seconds for a Gaggia to go from brew temp (203°F) to steam temp (300°F). Maybe you ought to send me your Gaggia to look at Larry, a couple of minutes would indicate a very sick machine. 8)
IMO 45 seconds is longer than I want to wait to start steaming the milk, add another 45 seconds to steam it and it's 1 1/2 that the shot is sitting. I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying I'd rather be able to steam milk at the same time the shot is pouring.
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IMO 45 seconds is longer than I want to wait to start steaming the milk, add another 45 seconds to steam it and it's 1 1/2 that the shot is sitting. I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying I'd rather be able to steam milk at the same time the shot is pouring.
Interesting; with my Classic, when I finish pulling the shot, I walk to the fridge, pour nonfat milk and a splash of half and half into the steaming pitcher, walk back to the machine, and start steaming. No waiting....
Susan
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Interesting; that's how I used to do it.
Now, I have the milk ready in the pitcher, grind, load the PF, start the shot, start steaming... soon as the shot is done, the microfoam is too, and I can pour the milk immediately.
From what Larry is saying, the question becomes, would you rather be pouring microfoam immediately when the shot is done, or however long it takes to walk to the fridge/get out the pitcher/pour the milk/pour the half and half/walk to the machine/steam, letting the shot sit there?
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It takes 30 - 45 seconds for a Gaggia to go from brew temp (203°F) to steam temp (300°F). Maybe you ought to send me your Gaggia to look at Larry, a couple of minutes would indicate a very sick machine. 8)
IMO 45 seconds is longer than I want to wait to start steaming the milk, add another 45 seconds to steam it and it's 1 1/2 that the shot is sitting. I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying I'd rather be able to steam milk at the same time the shot is pouring.
Ideally, a shot of espresso should be consumed within 2 minutes of the shot being pulled. I have always assumed it has to do with heat loss. With that said, I am not sure how adding steamed milk impacts this window of time. I think it would lengthen it, as you are adding another hot ingredient.
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From this morning.
13.9gms of Brazil Nossa Senhora de Fatima (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeNdiyIb0-k#)
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I hadn't heard about the Vario...
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Interesting; that's how I used to do it.
Now, I have the milk ready in the pitcher, grind, load the PF, start the shot, start steaming... soon as the shot is done, the microfoam is too, and I can pour the milk immediately.
From what Larry is saying, the question becomes, would you rather be pouring microfoam immediately when the shot is done, or however long it takes to walk to the fridge/get out the pitcher/pour the milk/pour the half and half/walk to the machine/steam, letting the shot sit there?
I prefer it my way.
I wouldn't like to be pulling the shot and steaming at the same time.
I like doing each and paying full attention to each.
But I can see how someone who was pressed for time might like your way better.
Susan
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This is not to be argumentative, or even saying it's better or worse. But how many shots have you watched, and what's the need to watch every one of them? Just curious.
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This is not to be argumentative, or even saying it's better or worse. But how many shots have you watched, and what's the need to watch every one of them? Just curious.
One reason would be because you do not want blond / bitter espresso in the cup. I just tend to get the steam nozzle where I need it in the milk and really pay more attention to the shot, pulling the demitasse when needed.
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This is not to be argumentative, or even saying it's better or worse. But how many shots have you watched, and what's the need to watch every one of them? Just curious.
One reason would be because you do not want blond / bitter espresso in the cup. I just tend to get the steam nozzle where I need it in the milk and really pay more attention to the shot, pulling the demitasse when needed.
+1
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This is not to be argumentative, or even saying it's better or worse. But how many shots have you watched, and what's the need to watch every one of them? Just curious.
One reason would be because you do not want blond / bitter espresso in the cup. I just tend to get the steam nozzle where I need it in the milk and really pay more attention to the shot, pulling the demitasse when needed.
Sorry, I wasn't remembering that many don't work with volumetric dosing.
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This is not to be argumentative, or even saying it's better or worse. But how many shots have you watched, and what's the need to watch every one of them? Just curious.
One reason would be because you do not want blond / bitter espresso in the cup. I just tend to get the steam nozzle where I need it in the milk and really pay more attention to the shot, pulling the demitasse when needed.
Sorry, I wasn't remembering that many don't work with volumetric dosing.
I use the feature but only to start the shot. It's nice in case something hinders me from manually killing the shot.
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This is not to be argumentative, or even saying it's better or worse. But how many shots have you watched, and what's the need to watch every one of them? Just curious.
One reason would be because you do not want blond / bitter espresso in the cup. I just tend to get the steam nozzle where I need it in the milk and really pay more attention to the shot, pulling the demitasse when needed.
Sorry, I wasn't remembering that many don't work with volumetric dosing.
I use the feature but only to start the shot. It's nice in case something hinders me from manually killing the shot.
In terms of pulling a shot I want to have as espresso, I do the same, and kill the shot by weight. But for milk drinks, I have it set for a certain volume and just let it finish on its own while I'm steaming, which I guess goes back to Tex's original point; higher budget machines have some advantages (if that's a drink you're making, and how you want to make it).
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Forgot to mention that I have 1 button programed to dispense the correct amount for a cooling flush (after idle) on my old San Marco H/X. Being commercial, its a real fire breathing dragon.
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This is not to be argumentative, or even saying it's better or worse. But how many shots have you watched, and what's the need to watch every one of them? Just curious.
One reason would be because you do not want blond / bitter espresso in the cup. I just tend to get the steam nozzle where I need it in the milk and really pay more attention to the shot, pulling the demitasse when needed.
Sorry, I wasn't remembering that many don't work with volumetric dosing.
I use the feature but only to start the shot. It's nice in case something hinders me from manually killing the shot.
In terms of pulling a shot I want to have as espresso, I do the same, and kill the shot by weight. But for milk drinks, I have it set for a certain volume and just let it finish on its own while I'm steaming, which I guess goes back to Tex's original point; higher budget machines have some advantages (if that's a drink you're making, and how you want to make it).
??? You'd use a lesser shot for frou-frou than you would for a straight shot? That confirms what I've long suspected; it's the milk that you like more than the coffee. :P
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Forgot to mention that I have 1 button programed to dispense the correct amount for a cooling flush (after idle) on my old San Marco H/X. Being commercial, its a real fire breathing dragon.
I rely on the water dance and experience. I've measured the temps and can hit the same one every time now.
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Forgot to mention that I have 1 button programed to dispense the correct amount for a cooling flush (after idle) on my old San Marco H/X. Being commercial, its a real fire breathing dragon.
I rely on the water dance and experience. I've measured the temps and can hit the same one every time now.
Between shots, I do the same but since the SM is on 24/7, the after idle flush is always the same amount so the volumetric dosing feature works fine for me.
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This is not to be argumentative, or even saying it's better or worse. But how many shots have you watched, and what's the need to watch every one of them? Just curious.
I watch them all.
I watch them so that I know when to cut them off.
If you aren't paying attention to the color and texture how do you know when it's "done"?
Susan
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Before I pulled the milk shot in the attached video I had already pulled a couple of straight shots and drank them. The first one straight shot needed a tweak (dose) which it got in the second straight shot and the third shot for milk pulled to spec.
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??? You'd use a lesser shot for frou-frou than you would for a straight shot?
Nobody said it's a lesser shot. For straight espresso I go by weight, watching for an extraction percentage. For milk drinks I go by volume.
That confirms what I've long suspected; it's the milk that you like more than the coffee. :P
You can't make that inference from what I wrote, and if you did you'd be wrong. I told you you were wrong several pages ago; you just refuse to listen. ;) Don't poo-poo the frou-frou.
This is not to be argumentative, or even saying it's better or worse. But how many shots have you watched, and what's the need to watch every one of them? Just curious.
I watch them all.
I watch them so that I know when to cut them off.
If you aren't paying attention to the color and texture how do you know when it's "done"?
Susan
I dunno, maybe I'm just lucky. You mean that a person can't get a grinder and machine dialed in and just pull successive good shots?
I know that when I upgraded my grinder a couple months ago, it made a huge improvement.
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From this morning.
Shaun
I noticed two things in this video.
1) looks like you have a new grinder... curious why the change and if you like it?
2) your tamping technique seems kinda ...... light. I remember you really putting that 30 lbs of pressure before... now it seems you are putting much less. Either that or you have really strong fingers. I'm curious if you went with a lighter tamp for a finer grind or if the lever needs less of a tamp.
BTW... this video shows my point. You can watch the end of the shot and be steaming the milk. I'd love to see a video of Tex or CAGurl with their Gaggia technique making a latte. I'm not saying they can't make a good latte, because I have on a Gaggia... it's just not as easy nor quickly repeatable.
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From this morning.
Shaun
I noticed two things in this video.
1) looks like you have a new grinder... curious why the change and if you like it?
2) your tamping technique seems kinda ...... light. I remember you really putting that 30 lbs of pressure before... now it seems you are putting much less. Either that or you have really strong fingers. I'm curious if you went with a lighter tamp for a finer grind or if the lever needs less of a tamp.
BTW... this video shows my point. You can watch the end of the shot and be steaming the milk. I'd love to see a video of Tex or CAGurl with their Gaggia technique making a latte. I'm not saying they can't make a good latte, because I have on a Gaggia... it's just not as easy nor quickly repeatable.
Tool! I don't use my Gaggia to make a latte, not because it couldn't do it but because I don't drink lattes in the first place. And when I do have folks over who like frou-frou drinks I'm usually using the Bunn.
Buying an espresso machine for its milk frothing capabilities is like buying a Lamborghini for its stereo. ::)
Too bad you guys don't like the taste of coffee enough to drink it straight. But if that's what you like I can certainly understand the need for those fancy machines. >:D
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Too bad you guys don't like the taste of coffee enough to drink it straight. But if that's what you like I can certainly understand the need for those fancy machines. >:D
Spoken like a true lactose-intolerant wannabee. :-\
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Too bad you guys don't like the taste of coffee enough to drink it straight. But if that's what you like I can certainly understand the need for those fancy machines. >:D
Spoken like a true lactose-intolerant wannabee. :-\
I do occasionally sneak in a cap when Mrs T's not watching, and with my modded Gaggia (PID'd for steam & brew, Silvia steam wand w/2 hole tip, and a still-secret boiler mod) I can stretch 8 oz of cold milk in ~25 seconds.
I may not be able to pour the best looking frou-frou, but it does taste as good as the caps I had in Italy, and a lot better than I've had in a Houston area coffee shop.
It's all about knowing your machines capabilities, and working within those boundaries.
Enjoy!
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Too bad you guys don't like the taste of coffee enough to drink it straight.
That's just not true! I love espresso and if you've ever seem my jabs at B|Milwaukiatto© for his lactose habit, you'd know that. With that said some folks do like lattes and I'm ok with that too, so I do make lattes for friends who think *$ froo froos are coffee... then I make them a latte where you can taste the coffee, with true microfoam and lately decent latte art. I don't make them often enough to do it well all the time on my Gaggia, and I have the Gaggia at the cabin for Americanos. But I can make a pretty good latte on my Brasilia day in day out.
As you know I think the Gaggia is a great inexpensive espresso machine and can say without exception my commercial machines are a step up from them... the question is how big of a step up. and is it worth it.
You said yourself you use the Bunn for lattes instead of a Gaggia, which proves my point. :P ;D
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Too bad you guys don't like the taste of coffee enough to drink it straight.
That's just not true! I love espresso and if you've ever seem my jabs at B|Milwaukiatto© for his lactose habit, you'd know that. With that said some folks do like lattes and I'm ok with that too, so I do make lattes for friends who think *$ froo froos are coffee... then I make them a latte where you can taste the coffee, with true microfoam and lately decent latte art. I don't make them often enough to do it well all the time on my Gaggia, and I have the Gaggia at the cabin for Americanos. But I can make a pretty good latte on my Brasilia day in day out.
As you know I think the Gaggia is a great inexpensive espresso machine and can say without exception my commercial machines are a step up from them... the question is how big of a step up. and is it worth it.
You said yourself you use the Bunn for lattes instead of a Gaggia, which proves my point. :P ;D
I use the Bunn when I have enough guests to outstrip the Gaggia's steam capacity - 2 caps is its limit. My modded Gaggia doesn't take a backseat to any machine when it comes to making 2 oz shots for my Americanos 2 - 3 times a day. It's as temp stable within those confines as any machine made.
Again, you've got to know your machines limitations and stay within them.
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From this morning.
2) your tamping technique seems kinda ...... light. I remember you really putting that 30 lbs of pressure before... now it seems you are putting much less. Either that or you have really strong fingers. I'm curious if you went with a lighter tamp for a finer grind or if the lever needs less of a tamp.
In general, most lever machines prefer a finer grind and lighter tamp. That is not to say you can not do whatever you want, but I typically see better results with the first approach. It really just depends on the coffee.
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That's just not true! I love espresso and if you've ever seem my jabs at B|Milwaukiatto© for his lactose habit...
While I appreciate the cameo reference, you will *not* drag me into this 6-page thread to nowhere <grins>.
[/Alfred Hitchcock]
B|Milkman
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That's just not true! I love espresso and if you've ever seem my jabs at B|Milwaukiatto© for his lactose habit...
While I appreciate the cameo reference, you will *not* drag me into this 6-page thread to nowhere <grins>.
[/Alfred Hitchcock]
B|Milkman
Just when I thought I was out...they pull me back in. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPw-3e_pzqU#ws)
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You mean that a person can't get a grinder and machine dialed in and just pull successive good shots?
I don't know the answer to that. It might be true, but since I only ever pull but one or maybe two shots in a day, it's never what I'm trying to accomplish. I make the adjustments for the age of the beans, and any differences in my tamp by watching the flow. I don't usually reset the grinder (Rancilio MD-50) except at the start of a new batch of beans, which is usually about once a week.
Susan
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You mean that a person can't get a grinder and machine dialed in and just pull successive good shots?
How "good" does a good shot have to be? Do you drink sink shots or do you sink them? Do you look at the espresso you just pulled with your freshly microfoamed pitcher of milk and decide to throw it all out because your shot is too blond or do you just pour it in there and drink it anyway?
In a production environment, the barista will make constant tweaks to the grinder. It may be once an hour or once every 20 shots or most likely as the variability hits her tolerance and signals the portion of the brain that controls quality to initiate a change in grind setting. In a home environment, the stakes are different.
Can it be done? Yes. But you would have to be uber talented with an incredible attention to dose, dress, tamp and you would probably have to adjust your volumetric control to pair with your puck. At the end of the day, it is easier for me to just watch the start and the finish of every shot.
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From this morning.
Shaun
I noticed two things in this video.
1) looks like you have a new grinder... curious why the change and if you like it?
2) your tamping technique seems kinda ...... light. I remember you really putting that 30 lbs of pressure before... now it seems you are putting much less. Either that or you have really strong fingers. I'm curious if you went with a lighter tamp for a finer grind or if the lever needs less of a tamp.
BTW... this video shows my point. You can watch the end of the shot and be steaming the milk. I'd love to see a video of Tex or CAGurl with their Gaggia technique making a latte. I'm not saying they can't make a good latte, because I have on a Gaggia... it's just not as easy nor quickly repeatable.
I got the Vario for a couple of reason (I still have the Macap), first one was noise. I know 'noisy' sounds dumb but when we have guests over and I crank up the Macap it kicks out a lot of noise and it's hard to hold conversations, I'd read the Vario is quiet - and it is. The second reason was ease of setting... for my wife. No matter how I marked up the Macap, or how I explained it, I would shiver when I'd see good beans getting ground on the wrong settings for her Aeropress or pourover. With the super simple visuals on the Vario it's worked out well. Then, of course, I wanted to know if the grinder was capable of good espresso vs. the Macap and I'm happy to say it is.
Reviews like this:
http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/grinders/418092 (http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/grinders/418092)
http://www.home-barista.com/advice/baratza-vario-vs-63-5mm-commercial-burr-grinder-t14464.html (http://www.home-barista.com/advice/baratza-vario-vs-63-5mm-commercial-burr-grinder-t14464.html)
And many more led me to fall down the rabbit hole of Vario research. If you look around a bit you will see some very interesting 'grinder shootouts' that tap the Vario as a bargain at the price.
Hahaha, yeah the tamping on the lever is significantly different. I find myself at a 3 - 8lb tamp pressure, it's a lever thing. The larger focus for tamping is a correctly squared off surface, even on all sides and that's why you see me touching the puck with the tamper a couple of times to observe the squaring and then in for the light tamp. The tamp for me is more of a negotiation between weight of tamp and headspace in the basket.
I'm not saying my approach is a good approach but I'll outline it anyway... From shot to shot I'm constantly adjusting things based on what I see in the stream and what I taste in the cup. More often than not it's a dosing issue where I'll add .5gms more or maybe even 1gm, or I'll make a grinder tweak, or I'll keep dose and grinder as is but adjust the headspace in the basket. Maybe I'll leave those things alone and go with a passive preinfusion and then see what the first pull has to say for itself before I adjust on the second pull of the lever. If the first pull almost goes full path before I know to hit it with the second pull, in the next shot I might go active preinfusion to infuse quicker and then on to 1/2 pull on the first lever and quickly load up the pressure again with the second pull - kind of a pressure choke to slow down the front-end effort of the active pre. All that to say I am constantly involving myself in the realtime observations and 'feel' of the shot, trying to cooperate with the espresso and move it around 'in-shot'. Based on being so involved with the shots outcome I get quite a few home runs and I also get some average shots as well. I taste them all even when I know it's going to be average, I'll even taste the obvious 'whoops I totally shouldn't have over-pressured that one' shots. In the video I had already dialed in what I wanted for a milk shot and went with the 'top down video angle' so it would be a learning tool for others, normally I'd be steaming milk and popping my head down to look at the espresso stream and then up to the milk and then down to the stream like one of those old-school drinking birds.
Some mornings I even have the same glassy eyed look when I'm pulling shots. ;-)
(http://blog.kkc.school.nz/hjohnson/files/2009/02/drinking-bird.jpg)
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FWIW, I tamp in a similar manner to Shaun... on a Nuova Simonelli Aurelia. I just use a very simple method because it's a high tech machine that takes care of a lot in a commercial production environment... my staff can easily produce excellent, repeatable results as long as the grind is right.
At home, a Baratza is my grinder of choice for reasons similar to what Shaun lists.
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...on a Nuova Simonelli Aurelia.
Nice!
I spent a couple of days comparing a pile of shots and caps off a side by side setup - the Aurelia with shots from Sammy Piccolo and the Slayer with shots from the owners/developers of that machine. You are a lucky man.
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That's just not true! I love espresso and if you've ever seem my jabs at B|Milwaukiatto© for his lactose habit...
While I appreciate the cameo reference, you will *not* drag me into this 6-page thread to nowhere <grins>.
B|Milkman
B|Lurking
Do you have a search engine poised to find a Milwaukiatto© reference in the threads (I know how much you like the whey it's referenced) or were you already tumbling into the conversation, only to have a little more self-restraint than some of us? ;D
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B|Lurking
Do you have a search engine poised to find a Milwaukiatto© reference in the threads (I know how much you like the whey it's referenced)...
Nah. I know that I will be ribbed in friendly fashion on generally most any thread. No need to search for it. Goats are tough and can eat take anything thrown their way.
...or were you already tumbling into the conversation, only to have a little more self-restraint than some of us? ;D
Opinions are fixed on this thread. No need to jump in there. I can learn more by just listening.
B|Java
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The second reason was ease of setting... for my wife. No matter how I marked up the Macap, or how I explained it, I would shiver when I'd see good beans getting ground on the wrong settings for her Aeropress or pourover. With the super simple visuals on the Vario it's worked out well...
Thread drift.
You too? When I go out of town, I write down grams of coffee on the filter box; lay out the filter, the Beehouse, the correct ceramic pot ("When you reach the top, that's it"); set the Macap at pourover. Come home and find that the Czarina poured tea. "It looked too daunting; tea is easier."
B|Java
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Coming into the kitchen and watching Amaro Gayo running through an espresso grinder setting and seeing a pourover sitting next to the grinder... gives me a headache.
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The second reason was ease of setting... for my wife. No matter how I marked up the Macap, or how I explained it, I would shiver when I'd see good beans getting ground on the wrong settings for her Aeropress or pourover. With the super simple visuals on the Vario it's worked out well...
Thread drift.
You too? When I go out of town, I write down grams of coffee on the filter box; lay out the filter, the Beehouse, the correct ceramic pot ("When you reach the top, that's it"); set the Macap at pourover. Come home and find that the Czarina poured tea. "It looked too daunting; tea is easier."
B|Java
Or worse, an empty Starbuck's cup sitting next to the computer when you get home - "I didn't feel like waiting for the machine to heat up."!!
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Opinions are fixed on this thread. No need to jump in there. I can learn more by just listening.
B|Java
[/quote]
As my Grandpa from the mountains of Georgia would say "Boy fightin with some folks is like resslin with a pig all you get is dirty and the Pig likes it." :)
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Opinions are fixed on this thread. No need to jump in there. I can learn more by just listening.
B|Java
As my Grandpa from the mountains of Georgia would say "Boy fightin with some folks is like resslin with a pig all you get is dirty and the Pig likes it." :)
[/quote]
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LOL now thats funny!
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Now that is a pretty piglet.
:D