Green Coffee Buying Club
Coffee Discussion boards => Hardware & Equipment => Topic started by: John F on March 18, 2009, 01:42:03 PM
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This will be a progress in work for a while.
I intend to make a comprehensive thread about the Carezza and for now it's going to be a mess of various information scattered about. My thought is to eventually migrate everything important to the first two posts with discussion thereafter.
I will block the next post as well and think that will be enough space for the vitals.
The Carezza sports:
58mm group head
3.4 oz boiler
Heating system Boiler Uni4514
Water tank Removable / plus flip top spy compartment fill option for sneak water fills.
Water tank capacity 1,25 lt.
Water pump pressure 15 bar
Steam wand Pannarello
Group and Filter holder Chromed brass
Dimensions cm. (LxHxD) 27x37x23,5
Weight 4.9 kg
Bodywork ABS
Steam test #1
I realized after 5 seconds that the amount I open the valve would seriously skew the results. :-\
Start 8oz of water at 33 degrees F
at 1:00 the temp was 95
at 2:00 temp 150
at 3:00 temp 190 and about done, terminated test.
Realistic milk tests to follow but the above is a good bench test of extremes from freezing 33f to fizzle out at 190f 3:00.
The CG first look (http://coffeegeek.com/proreviews/firstlook/carezza)
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In the future I will see about charting temps with a Scace (http://www.espressoparts.com/product/EP-THERMOFILTER/Espresso_Machine_Thermofilter_Temperature_Device__Scace_Device__EspressoPartscom_Exclusive__OUTOFSTOCK.html/) and go over each section of the machines performance.
My immediate focus that started this idea was on our discussion of microfoam with the Carezza
My initial tests after consulting with Staylor, searching various prior works on it, some water tests and a couple milk tests have me more hopeful than I have ever been with the carezza's ability to produce good quality microfoam that will be capable of art....we shall see.
Something that helped a lot from my previous trips down this road was relocating the o-ring in the wand...see the picture for an option to defeat the air intake of the turbo frother.
Also attached a couple of pics under the hood.
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John,
Once you verify what a stock Gaggia can do (they're all the same), take a look at what a PID'd Gaggia can do. This information is provided solely as a basis for comparison of stock & modded Gaggia espresso machines.
Here's a study that Jim Gallt (http://www.pidkits.com) did of the intra-shot temp stability of a PID'd Gaggia Coffee:
3 shots individually charted;
(http://home.earthlink.net/~r_harmon/PID/Gaggia%20Coffee%20PID-MLG%2002%20(Small).jpg)
3-shot average;
(http://home.earthlink.net/~r_harmon/PID/Gaggia%20Coffee%20PID-MLG%20(Small).jpg)
Typical Gaggia boiler cycles;
(http://home.earthlink.net/~r_harmon/PID/Gaggia%20boiler%20cycles%20-%20MLG%20(Small).jpg)
Here's a video of the steam capacity of a PID'd Gaggia Carezza;
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFsWafUUINs[/youtube]
Here's another video showing the steam capacity of a PID'd
Gaggia Baby, this time with a Rancilio Silvia steam wand mod.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5VxU5FNCIc[/youtube]
Here's a video of a PID'd Gaggia Baby pulling a double in 30 seconds;
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iv6-QmaeGG8[/youtube]
Stock Gaggia's are very good home espresso machines. PID'd & tuned, they make superior home espresso machines.
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Great additions to the compendium!! 8)
The vid is a fantastic visual of what happens when the turbo wand is introducing air via the intake... :o
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Though the image showing intra-shot avg for three shots is interesting and there's tons of manufacturers and users that debate a correct ramp up and down, which is a whole different subject, I don't see the value in showing the image. Rather, what would be relevant is presenting an image that shows pulling repeated espresso shots and displaying the path of each shot and thus demonstrating real-world repeatability.
Averages don't matter in espresso, each shot matters.
Edit:
I see you've added a three shot tracking, not too bad for two of the shots but that third shot would have been a disaster.
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Though the image showing intra-shot avg for three shots is interesting and there's tons of manufacturers and users that debate a correct ramp up and down, which is a whole different subject, I don't see the value in showing the image. Rather, what would be relevant is presenting an image that shows pulling repeated espresso shots and displaying the path of each shot and thus demonstrating real-world repeatability.
Averages don't matter in espresso, each shot matters.
Inter-shot temp stability is another story and I didn't post that information because pulling repeat shots with a Gaggia Carezza is not what this machines is all about. They're made for the user who pulls an occasional shot and needs to steam milk for one or two drinks at a time.
Try to pull shots too close together and you might even get a portafilter sneeze. Give a Gaggia Carezza time to reestablish temp stability before pulling another shot and it does its job nicely, even in stock form.
If you need to pull drinks more frequently, say to entertain guests, I'd suggest a Gaggia Classic or Rancilio Silvia, both equipped with 3-way valves. Or maybe moving up to a prosumer HX or double boiler machine.
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That's it. I've been waiting to make the jump into espresso. I've heard a lot of good things about the Carezza and the price is affordable. I think it will make a nice starter machine. I'm gonna have to keep an eye out for a used Carezza.
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That's it. I've been waiting to make the jump into espresso. I've heard a lot of good things about the Carezza and the price is affordable. I think it will make a nice starter machine. I'm gonna have to keep an eye out for a used Carezza.
Most Gaggia models are built around the same parts; boiler, group, heating elements, pump, etc. There are machines (Classic & Baby) with 3-way valves, but these do not affect the quality of the shot. Some machines have adjustable OPV's and these do affect shot quality by regulating the brewing pressure.
As you shop for a Gaggia, the Carezza is mechanically identical to the old-style Espresso, Evolution, & Coffee. Stay away from the new-model Espresso (Pure, Color, & Dose) with the s/s boilers. The models with s/s boilers are proving to be inferior to the older models with aluminum/brass boilers.
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Watching this thread with great interest as my Carezza should arrive tomorrow or Friday!!
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First update on steam:
The vid Tex posted prompted me to do a similar test. I was looking for microfoam capabilities not overall steaming power because I know the Carezza has sufficient steam for one drink and everything I test will be based on one drink per session (except temp testing to check lag times between sessions for proper temps).
Placing the o-ring where they want it (http://www.wholelattelove.com/Gaggia/gaggia_pannarello.cfm) I plunged the wand into a clear glass of water and got the same thing the vid shows. A constant introduction of big air. Over the years I have wrestled several attempts at managing that air intake from wrapping it in saran wrap to surfing it at the milk level....mixed results.
I moved the o-ring to the position in the second post and re-tested. Upon initial opening of the steam there is a tiny burst of small bubbles followed by.......swirling action with no air introduction.
I am not sure why I never thought to do something as simple as looking directly into a clear glass even though I have steamed several pitchers of water to test swirling patterns. Anyhow it's a significant improvement (towards control) for 10 seconds of your time. Anybody that has this style turbo frother should grab a clear glass with water test both o-ring positions and decide what to do.
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Haha, I knew it. John I would have put a $1 on it that my rambling theory this morning was correct. I bet with some crema and a gallon of Whole you can pound off some latte art in short order based on the microfoam technique from this morning.
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Haha, I knew it. John I would have put a $1 on it that my rambling theory this morning was correct. I bet with some crema and a gallon of Whole you can pound off some latte art in short order based on the microfoam technique from this morning.
Quantum leap in one day for sure.
Your pointers were key and I will have follow up questions tomorrow. ;D
I had just enough coffee to pull one shot this evening and it was by far my best attempt at art to date. I realize based on what I see now that it's only learning curve standing between me and art now.
I remember reading a long time ago that people were pouring art with Gaggia machines so I've always known it was possible I just thought it was really hard and I kept avoiding it because, well..you know why..I didn't want to have to do it once I decided I "had" to do it. ;D
What I poured today was honest to goodness microfoam but it needs some work. I need to get it a lot tighter but it was a serious improvement and it's only a matter of time now. ;)
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I moved the o-ring to the position in the second post and re-tested. Upon initial opening of the steam there is a tiny burst of small bubbles followed by.......swirling action with no air introduction.
I'm confused. ;) So someone would need to manually move the o-ring to this spot?
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I remember reading a long time ago that people were pouring art with Gaggia machines so I've always known it was possible I just thought it was really hard and I kept avoiding it because, well..you know why..I didn't want to have to do it once I decided I "had" to do it. ;D
What I poured today was honest to goodness microfoam but it needs some work. I need to get it a lot tighter but it was a serious improvement and it's only a matter of time now. ;)
Way to go John ... enjoy!
:)
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So someone would need to manually move the o-ring to this spot?
Yes.
Remove the sleeve and slide the o-ring to this placement...
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Interesting. I know for a fact that the o-ring on my Carezza's steam wand isn't in that placement, but I still get decent foam without a problem. I'll have to test it out this weekend.
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Interesting. I know for a fact that the o-ring on my Carezza's steam wand isn't in that placement, but I still get decent foam without a problem. I'll have to test it out this weekend.
Watch that vid Tex posted and see how much air the turbo is introducing (non stop).
With my o-ring in the stock position it was doing the exact same thing. :-\
The good news is that all you need is a clear glass of water and you will be able to test to a highly visual result.
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I remember reading a long time ago that people were pouring art with Gaggia machines so I've always known it was possible I just thought it was really hard and I kept avoiding it because, well..you know why..I didn't want to have to do it once I decided I "had" to do it. ;D
What I poured today was honest to goodness microfoam but it needs some work. I need to get it a lot tighter but it was a serious improvement and it's only a matter of time now. ;)
Way to go John ... enjoy!
:)
MP, earlier you stated you were making microfoam and I asked you at what point are you introducing air into the milk. You didn't reply but I asked you that for a reason. Based on what I know of the Carrezza through discussion with John yesterday and watching the video posted by Tex of the wand in water I have to believe your ideas of what microfoam is, well, is, wrong. And now that we almost have you converted over from an occasionally drinking coffee guy into an espresso pulling regular I want to try an complete the conversion over to the dark side. So run me through the process in detail and I bet I can get you a lot closer to microfoam.
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.
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MP, earlier you stated you were making microfoam and I asked you at what point are you introducing air into the milk. You didn't reply but I asked you that for a reason. Based on what I know of the Carrezza through discussion with John yesterday and watching the video posted by Tex of the wand in water I have to believe your ideas of what microfoam is, well, is, wrong. And now that we almost have you converted over from an occasionally drinking coffee guy into an espresso pulling regular I want to try an complete the conversion over to the dark side. So run me through the process in detail and I bet I can get you a lot closer to microfoam.
Hey Shaun ... I didn't answer for a reason ... for fear that I would bear the wrath of Khaun .. I mean Shaun. Honestly you were taking a poke at my mentor Tex alias Robert who brought me through a long journey into espresso bliss long before I joined here. A famed US barista asking a local self practicing coffee roaster when I introduce air into the milk.
Truthfully I'm not even sure how to answer your question ... I suppose I introduce it when I cut the new bag of milk and pour a few ounces of it for frothing. Is that what you wanted to know?
:-\
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.
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I asked you the question about your frothing technique based on two comments you made which cause me to scratch my head.
1) You are starting the steaming with the wand sunk in and you hold it there the entire time. And so I was wondering at what point the initial (and required) air bubbles are being introduced so you can then begin the fractioning of the air bubbles (I'll post up some images from this morning, taken with the express purpose of trying to explain a thing or two).
2) You mentioned holding the wand down in the milk until there is a low guttural noise coming from the jug and that's when you stop steaming. That noise is usually a sign that you have overheated the milk, thus denaturing the protein far too much, thus compromised the ability to have "really good" microfoam and thus stripped the milk of it's natural sweetness which is only possible to taste up to a certain temp.
Remember, this isn't personal, it's not about you it's about the milk in this instance.
And so, without a hint of a poke... at what point are you introducing air into the milk
I am always game for learning more.
On point number 1 yes ... the way I did it with the Carezza was to stick the steam wand into the middle of the container and put it down just up from the bottom of it. I would turn on the steam wand and then put it into position and let her fly. Look forward to your images. But seriously forget the Carezza my problem is the Isomac Tea ll ... I pulled some good micro foam shots but few and far between ... could really use some pointers on this baby to improve my consistentcy in producing micro foam. This is a beast of a different nature.
On point number 2 ... you may be right ... but IMHO the taste was sweet and it resembled liquid chrome and poured like molten metal. When I stopped the steaming the milk level was about twice its size. When drinking the cappucinno you could taste the thickness of the milk.
Hope I answered your questions.
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Microfoam:
These are some images from this morning. I didn't break out the Nikon to get real artsy with this set of images, and the pours weren't with latte art in mind. I simply focused on pouring two different kinds of microfoam. One of the pours was decent microfoam, good for art, good for transporting the espresso. The second pour was super-tight microfoam, really, really small bubbles and not good at all for art, and not as good at espresso transport but certainly giving a luxurious mouthfeel. Both very different and both definitely microfoam.
The images were shot after the pours had sat there for approx 15sec so some of the micro-bubbles were starting to collapse into each other forming larger (but still very, very, very small) bubbles.
By way of reference the pours were into my little 4oz Vietnamese cups and without getting all sciency the rim of the cup (the black strip) is 1mm in diameter.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3427/3368022151_5e44c8d26f_o.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3581/3368847286_170d16ab75_o.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3428/3368847346_b86dcac5c6_o.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3552/3368847462_31318822c8_o.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3059/3368847556_ffa518e732_o.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3451/3368022573_c5e964551b_b.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3622/3368022639_857b151685_o.jpg)
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I asked you the question about your frothing technique based on two comments you made which cause me to scratch my head.
1) You are starting the steaming with the wand sunk in and you hold it there the entire time. And so I was wondering at what point the initial (and required) air bubbles are being introduced so you can then begin the fractioning of the air bubbles (I'll post up some images from this morning, taken with the express purpose of trying to explain a thing or two).
2) You mentioned holding the wand down in the milk until there is a low guttural noise coming from the jug and that's when you stop steaming. That noise is usually a sign that you have overheated the milk, thus denaturing the protein far too much, thus compromised the ability to have "really good" microfoam and thus stripped the milk of it's natural sweetness which is only possible to taste up to a certain temp.
Remember, this isn't personal, it's not about you it's about the milk in this instance.
And so, without a hint of a poke... at what point are you introducing air into the milk
I am always game for learning more.
On point number 1 yes ... the way I did it with the Carezza was to stick the steam wand into the middle of the container and put it down just up from the bottom of it. I would turn on the steam wand and then put it into position and let her fly. Look forward to your images. But seriously forget the Carezza my problem is the Isomac Tea ll ... I pulled some good micro foam shots but few and far between ... could really use some pointers on this baby to improve my consistentcy in producing micro foam. This is a beast of a different nature.
On point number 2 ... you may be right ... but IMHO the taste was sweet and it resembled liquid chrome and poured like molten metal. When I stopped the steaming the milk level was about twice its size. When drinking the cappucinno you could taste the thickness of the milk.
Hope I answered your questions.
Take a look at the images I just posted up and let me know if your milk looks like this.
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Take a look at the images I just posted up and let me know if your milk looks like this.
Let me qualify my answer. With the Carezza and the PID Auberin machine I have yes. With the Isomac Tea ll ... I got that maybe 2 or 3 times since I have been using it. The consistency of micro foam production on it is still very elusive.
Please don't ask me to produce photographic proof of this as it is pictures such as this that makes me want to get a real digital camera and not my lowly point and shoot that has an awfull in close shooting detail.
:-[
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Take a look at the images I just posted up and let me know if your milk looks like this.
Let me qualify my answer. With the Carezza and the PID Auberin machine I have yes. With the Isomac Tea ll ... I got that maybe 2 or 3 times since I have been using it. The consistency of micro foam production on it is still very elusive.
Please don't ask me to produce photographic proof of this as it is pictures such as this that makes me want to get a real digital camera and not my lowly point and shoot that has an awfull in close shooting detail.
:-[
Well even though I have a pretty capable photo rig it's my skills with it that's the limitation rather than the camera. I'm not too happy about the quality of the images I put up but I guess they will serve the purpose.
What threw me off about how you are describing your steaming is this... Typically when a person goes to steam microfoam there is an initial few seconds where the air bubbles are introduced into the milk by skimming the surface of the milk. As I discussed this with John, I showed him that I might only surface surf for 3secs or maybe 4secs depending on what I am trying to do (and depending on the age of the milk, type, planetary alignment, etc). Once the initial 3sec air bubbles exist it then requires the fractioning of those big bubbles (and by big I mean small bubbles, but they are massive compared to the end result micro-bubbles). The remainder of your time is spent manipulating the milk to destroy the bubbles into smaller and smaller and smaller sized bubbles. That requires you to sink the wand into the jug and get on to bubble-smashing. Now remember, I'm not talking about the big sea foam bubbles that you see EVERYWHERE, I'm talking about small bubbles that then get smashed into super-small bubbles.
Watching the Carrezza video posted by Tex and talking with John, the Carrezza wand is introducing house-sized bubbles into the milk. Uhmmmm, not good. The small bubbles I'm talking about are only introduced in the first 2-3secs from then on it should be a no-air scenario.
Huh? No air? Well, about 4 or 5yrs ago there was a a magical point in the espresso world where good baristas, observant home espresso drinkers and passionate geeks started talking about the abilities (or more importantly the non-abilities) of certain wands, wand tips, boilers, dry steam, wet steam, phony air introduction systems, etc. Out of that came an understanding that simple because you hold a steam wand in your hand doesn't make it magically capable of producing microfoam. Speaking of the Brewtus II that I use, the Brewtus Users Forum went through a period of time where at least five steam tips were compared, one of them being the stock tip that came with the machine (horrendous) and one of them being the tip I bought after-market (awesome). So again, because it's called an espresso machine doesn't guarantee any ability to produce microfoam - so your inability to punch out good foam may not have anything to do with you, it could simply be a bad steam tip.
Following me so far?
Maybe check to see if there is mention on Google about Isomac Tea steam tips - suck/no suck?
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The compendium has cracked. :P
No worries once I get the vital details into the top posts I will separate off all of our discussions and I envision a very detailed look at the Carezza when it's all said and done.
MP...what I've learned with the recent turn of events leaves me wondering why you are having any trouble with the tea and how anything like microfoam was achieved on the Carezza as you described getting it.
Here is why..
That vid Tex posted tells the tale..the Carezza wand never stops introducing massive air from start to finish. How can you transition from introducing air to breaking down/incorporating it to smaller "micro" bubbles when the thing is running full speed introducing more and more air?
With the Tea you don't have that problem anymore so things should be good. :-\
I'm confused but think the solution is at hand....I'm sending you a PM MP. ;D
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Just out of curiosity, John, have you experimented with taking the turbo frother totally off?
Moving the o-ring amounts to about the same thing as taking it off only the end of the wand is extended.
I didn't fully understand your milk technique but I think you are making steamed milk not microfoam...nothing wrong with steamed milk BTW if that is what you are after. 8)
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This post moved at request of the long arm of Joe.
(http://img164.exs.cx/img164/7827/offtopic8mg.gif)
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John could you please migrate your last post to this topic:
http://www.greencoffeebuyingclub.com/index.php?topic=5864.msg86877#msg86877
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Can I reply here now?
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Well even though I have a pretty capable photo rig it's my skills with it that's the limitation rather than the camera. I'm not too happy about the quality of the images I put up but I guess they will serve the purpose.
What threw me off about how you are describing your steaming is this... Typically when a person goes to steam microfoam there is an initial few seconds where the air bubbles are introduced into the milk by skimming the surface of the milk. As I discussed this with John, I showed him that I might only surface surf for 3secs or maybe 4secs depending on what I am trying to do (and depending on the age of the milk, type, planetary alignment, etc). Once the initial 3sec air bubbles exist it then requires the fractioning of those big bubbles (and by big I mean small bubbles, but they are massive compared to the end result micro-bubbles). The remainder of your time is spent manipulating the milk to destroy the bubbles into smaller and smaller and smaller sized bubbles. That requires you to sink the wand into the jug and get on to bubble-smashing. Now remember, I'm not talking about the big sea foam bubbles that you see EVERYWHERE, I'm talking about small bubbles that then get smashed into super-small bubbles.
Watching the Carrezza video posted by Tex and talking with John, the Carrezza wand is introducing house-sized bubbles into the milk. Uhmmmm, not good. The small bubbles I'm talking about are only introduced in the first 2-3secs from then on it should be a no-air scenario.
Huh? No air? Well, about 4 or 5yrs ago there was a a magical point in the espresso world where good baristas, observant home espresso drinkers and passionate geeks started talking about the abilities (or more importantly the non-abilities) of certain wands, wand tips, boilers, dry steam, wet steam, phony air introduction systems, etc. Out of that came an understanding that simple because you hold a steam wand in your hand doesn't make it magically capable of producing microfoam. Speaking of the Brewtus II that I use, the Brewtus Users Forum went through a period of time where at least five steam tips were compared, one of them being the stock tip that came with the machine (horrendous) and one of them being the tip I bought after-market (awesome). So again, because it's called an espresso machine doesn't guarantee any ability to produce microfoam - so your inability to punch out good foam may not have anything to do with you, it could simply be a bad steam tip.
Following me so far?
Maybe check to see if there is mention on Google about Isomac Tea steam tips - suck/no suck?
Hey Shaun ... yes I get what you are saying. I never heard an analogy like that for frothing milk but my results with the Tea ll speak for themselves ... in other words this sounds like the complete opposite of what I am doing so already this sounds like it will work. On all the reading I did on working with a prosumer machine frothing they never explained it the way you have. I will certainly try to do it this way.
Yes ... I have already tried numerous tips on the Tea ... I have 5 to date (this includes the tip that came with the machine). Actually the best one that I've found was custom made for me from a guy on CG ... he actually made me 2 ... a single and double holed tip. I thought the single would work better but found that his 2 small holed tip is now the best tip that I own.
Between your post here and John F's PM I think I will try this new strategy out on my next cappuccino go around. I hope you don't mind if I send more questions your way if I find I have a problem getting this to work.
Thanks
:)
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Between your post here and John F's PM
Everything I just told you I took from him and put in my own words is all......
I think you are going to nail the microfoam on the Tea soon and when you do you will wonder how the unobstructed Carezza wand was working at all. :-X
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Everything I just told you I took from him and put in my own words is all......
I think you are going to nail the microfoam on the Tea soon and when you do you will wonder how the unobstructed Carezza wand was working at all. :-X
Yeah ... its funny ... the introductory machines proved a piece of cake to produce micro foam ... I never really nailed it on a constistent basis on the Tea. The Tea can blow steam like a steam engine compared to the other two ... but in the hands of a clueless operator it is just a machine that blows steam.
Well ... live and learn.
:)
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Well even though I have a pretty capable photo rig it's my skills with it that's the limitation rather than the camera. I'm not too happy about the quality of the images I put up but I guess they will serve the purpose.
What threw me off about how you are describing your steaming is this... Typically when a person goes to steam microfoam there is an initial few seconds where the air bubbles are introduced into the milk by skimming the surface of the milk. As I discussed this with John, I showed him that I might only surface surf for 3secs or maybe 4secs depending on what I am trying to do (and depending on the age of the milk, type, planetary alignment, etc). Once the initial 3sec air bubbles exist it then requires the fractioning of those big bubbles (and by big I mean small bubbles, but they are massive compared to the end result micro-bubbles). The remainder of your time is spent manipulating the milk to destroy the bubbles into smaller and smaller and smaller sized bubbles. That requires you to sink the wand into the jug and get on to bubble-smashing. Now remember, I'm not talking about the big sea foam bubbles that you see EVERYWHERE, I'm talking about small bubbles that then get smashed into super-small bubbles.
Watching the Carrezza video posted by Tex and talking with John, the Carrezza wand is introducing house-sized bubbles into the milk. Uhmmmm, not good. The small bubbles I'm talking about are only introduced in the first 2-3secs from then on it should be a no-air scenario.
Huh? No air? Well, about 4 or 5yrs ago there was a a magical point in the espresso world where good baristas, observant home espresso drinkers and passionate geeks started talking about the abilities (or more importantly the non-abilities) of certain wands, wand tips, boilers, dry steam, wet steam, phony air introduction systems, etc. Out of that came an understanding that simple because you hold a steam wand in your hand doesn't make it magically capable of producing microfoam. Speaking of the Brewtus II that I use, the Brewtus Users Forum went through a period of time where at least five steam tips were compared, one of them being the stock tip that came with the machine (horrendous) and one of them being the tip I bought after-market (awesome). So again, because it's called an espresso machine doesn't guarantee any ability to produce microfoam - so your inability to punch out good foam may not have anything to do with you, it could simply be a bad steam tip.
Following me so far?
Maybe check to see if there is mention on Google about Isomac Tea steam tips - suck/no suck?
Hey Shaun ... yes I get what you are saying. I never heard an analogy like that for frothing milk but my results with the Tea ll speak for themselves ... in other words this sounds like the complete opposite of what I am doing so already this sounds like it will work. On all the reading I did on working with a prosumer machine frothing they never explained it the way you have. I will certainly try to do it this way.
Yes ... I have already tried numerous tips on the Tea ... I have 5 to date (this includes the tip that came with the machine). Actually the best one that I've found was custom made for me from a guy on CG ... he actually made me 2 ... a single and double holed tip. I thought the single would work better but found that his 2 small holed tip is now the best tip that I own.
Between your post here and John F's PM I think I will try this new strategy out on my next cappuccino go around. I hope you don't mind if I send more questions your way if I find I have a problem getting this to work.
Thanks
:)
Bummer, you already have a collection of tips, you should put them in the tip jar - groan. ;-)
I hope it works out for you, just try to understretch the milk initially, literally. Put the tip on the surface and only stretch the milk for like 2-3 secs, and even though you "know" that is a ridiculously short period of time and you "know" it didn't stretch enough... just go with it and get on with sinking that wand and smashing those bubbles. If the milk isn't capable of pouring art then start again and add another second of stretch to the initial phase and then sink the wand in and begin the bubble-smash again, if that pour didn't work then add another 1sec of strech, etc.
You'll get it. But if you have questions, fire away.
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Bummer, you already have a collection of tips, you should put them in the tip jar - groan. ;-)
I hope it works out for you, just try to understretch the milk initially, literally. Put the tip on the surface and only stretch the milk for like 2-3 secs, and even though you "know" that is a ridiculously short period of time and you "know" it didn't stretch enough... just go with it and get on with sinking that wand and smashing those bubbles. If the milk isn't capable of pouring art then start again and add another second of stretch to the initial phase and then sink the wand in and begin the bubble-smash again, if that pour didn't work then add another 1sec of strech, etc.
You'll get it. But if you have questions, fire away.
Actually ... I do have a question for you. when you set the pressure to steam ... how far past the steam turn on point do you turn the knob?
I find that if I put to much oomph into the steam output it severely shortens the time you can have the tip in the milk before the milk over heats. Do you find that too or am I off in left field on this one?
Thanks
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So someone would need to manually move the o-ring to this spot?
Yes.
Remove the sleeve and slide the o-ring to this placement...
I tried this out this morning and it worked like a charm for me too. Hard to believe that just a simple movement of the o-ring would make such a difference. I wonder why Gaggia doesn't ship them out like that to begin with?
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I wonder why Gaggia doesn't ship them out like that to begin with?
They are trying to make a crutch like a pressurized PF crema enhancer.
Now when you see just how small of an amount of air you introduce for good microfoam and you look at that vid of the wide open wand it's a real eye opener.
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Espresso and cappuccino day today. I pulled three cappuccinos and here are the results:
- Shot 1 in larger container ... matched best results I've gotten on Isomac
- Shot 2 in smaller container ... concentrated too much on technique and pulled out too fast ... watery and milk was not even hot
- Shot 3 in larger container ... this was a shot similar to what I would get with the lesser machines in micro foam ... the volume went to over double and lots of top foam to play with for latte art (finally)
Thank you to staylor and John F.
;D
(I drank way too much coffee and milk)
:-X
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I wonder why Gaggia doesn't ship them out like that to begin with?
They are trying to make a crutch like a pressurized PF crema enhancer.
Now when you see just how small of an amount of air you introduce for good microfoam and you look at that vid of the wide open wand it's a real eye opener.
The real eye-opener is to compare the two videos - one with a stock Gaggia wand and the other with a Silvia wand. HUGE difference in the air volume! The only air being introduced with the Silvia wand is in the steam itself.
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So, the Silvia wand would be a better wand for making microfoam? How hard is it to retrofit the Gaggia wand to the Silvia wand? Plug and play, or more than that?
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So, the Silvia wand would be a better wand for making microfoam?
I don't make micro-foam, too unctuous for my taste (reminds me of a milkshake that's too thin?). But the Silvia wand does a better job of controlling the amount of air introduced than the stock Gaggia device, so it should work better for that purpose.
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So, the Silvia wand would be a better wand for making microfoam? How hard is it to retrofit the Gaggia wand to the Silvia wand? Plug and play, or more than that?
I can't say how much better one is than the other but I can tell you it takes 10 seconds to move the o-ring but to swap to the Silvia you are going to have to open up the machine.
The difference in the two is going to be more about manipulation of the bubbles so some of that is going to come down to individual techniques in addition to the design differences. All things considered I'm guessing the Silvia wand is better but how much and to what extent the differences are exploited are key in deciding what to do.
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I can't say how much better one is than the other but I can tell you it takes 10 seconds to move the o-ring but to swap to the Silvia you are going to have to open up the machine.
The Silvia wand mod is external only. There is nothing involved that takes more than an adjustable wrench and maybe a bit of sandpaper. Piece of cake!
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The Silvia wand mod is external only. There is nothing involved that takes more than an adjustable wrench and maybe a bit of sandpaper. Piece of cake!
Cool, you might generate some Silvia wand sales with this one..I am shopping in another tab for one right now. ;)
How does it come out?
Does removing those Allen bolts allow the wand connection to drop down outside the jacket?
I'm guessing that nut visible on the steam wand needs to come off but it is up inside the jacket so I can't figure how to put a wrench on it without opening up the machine.
I know you are the Gaggia guy so I defer to your expertise...how do we get this thing out without opening up the machine?
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The Silvia wand mod is external only. There is nothing involved that takes more than an adjustable wrench and maybe a bit of sandpaper. Piece of cake!
Cool, you might generate some Silvia wand sales with this one..I am shopping in another tab for one right now. ;)
How does it come out?
Does removing those Allen bolts allow the wand connection to drop down outside the jacket?
I'm guessing that nut visible on the steam wand needs to come off but it is up inside the jacket so I can't figure how to put a wrench on it without opening up the machine.
I know you are the Gaggia guy so I defer to your expertise...how do we get this thing out without opening up the machine?
Looks like someone's already been improving your Carezza? The point where the wand connects to the pipe is supposed to extend through the case. It looks like someone has bent the tube on yours. I was looking for a picture that shows this, but I've never shot one from that angle.
So, in your case it probably would be necessary to pop the top to get at the wand. I'd be curious if you can tug the wand back into position?
I've been buying my wands here (http://www.espressoparts.com/results.cgis?catalog=&select=NAME&keywords=silvia+wand&image.x=0&image.y=0), but I see they're out of stock.
I'm attaching an exploded parts diagram for the Carezza that should help you.
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Bummer, you already have a collection of tips, you should put them in the tip jar - groan. ;-)
I hope it works out for you, just try to understretch the milk initially, literally. Put the tip on the surface and only stretch the milk for like 2-3 secs, and even though you "know" that is a ridiculously short period of time and you "know" it didn't stretch enough... just go with it and get on with sinking that wand and smashing those bubbles. If the milk isn't capable of pouring art then start again and add another second of stretch to the initial phase and then sink the wand in and begin the bubble-smash again, if that pour didn't work then add another 1sec of strech, etc.
You'll get it. But if you have questions, fire away.
Actually ... I do have a question for you. when you set the pressure to steam ... how far past the steam turn on point do you turn the knob?
I find that if I put to much oomph into the steam output it severely shortens the time you can have the tip in the milk before the milk over heats. Do you find that too or am I off in left field on this one?
Thanks
It's a good question and it really depends on the machine. Some boilers/steamwands/tips have a lot of "oomph" whereas others are a bit limp-wristed. Further to that, it depends on how much time you have on your wand, how used to using it. I can open my and all the way up and get right at it, but there is no harm in opening up your wand to 50% steaming force, setting up the surface skim bubble introduction and then sinking the wand going to 100% steaming force and smashing those bubbles up.
Remember, nearly 99% of my milk drinks are done steaming only 2ozs of milk. You have to have a good eye for the milk, a good understanding of manipulation and a very good understanding of temp bandwidth to time relationship. IF I open the wand to 100% I can miss the optimum microfoam by just a couple of seconds. The upside is if I miss the optimum point the non-optimal microfoam still kicks regular hot milk's asssssss. Microfoam can take even mediocre espresso and transport it in such a fashion that it's drinkable.
There's nothing worse than hot dead milk. Keep at it, you'll be glad you did.
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So, in your case it probably would be necessary to pop the top to get at the wand.
After looking at it a while I decided the same thing and opened it up.
I'm thinking now about removing it up top on the brass section and working at it with the entire wand out in the open rather than trying to wrench around in the tight space of the machine.
I took the opportunity to get a few pics of the inside that I will add to the top 2 posts later on but here is the connection I think I'll go after to do the swap.
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It's a good question and it really depends on the machine. Some boilers/steamwands/tips have a lot of "oomph" whereas others are a bit limp-wristed. Further to that, it depends on how much time you have on your wand, how used to using it. I can open my and all the way up and get right at it, but there is no harm in opening up your wand to 50% steaming force, setting up the surface skim bubble introduction and then sinking the wand going to 100% steaming force and smashing those bubbles up.
Remember, nearly 99% of my milk drinks are done steaming only 2ozs of milk. You have to have a good eye for the milk, a good understanding of manipulation and a very good understanding of temp bandwidth to time relationship. IF I open the wand to 100% I can miss the optimum microfoam by just a couple of seconds. The upside is if I miss the optimum point the non-optimal microfoam still kicks regular hot milk's asssssss. Microfoam can take even mediocre espresso and transport it in such a fashion that it's drinkable.
There's nothing worse than hot dead milk. Keep at it, you'll be glad you did.
Thanks Shaun.
I will continue to experiment to establish best microfoam production.
:)
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So, in your case it probably would be necessary to pop the top to get at the wand.
After looking at it a while I decided the same thing and opened it up.
Two things;
1) Take a look at the attached file and see if your SPV is working correctly.
2) I'd bend the tube down so the wand fitting is positioned below the case. At some point you'll want to remove it for cleaning.
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At some point you'll want to remove it for cleaning.
Man...out of sight out of mind. I'm cleaning that section during descale. ;D
It was fun looking inside the machine. What is this thing a pressure stat?
It's got an adjustment slot on the end of it accessible from the outside....I wish it was an OPV..I didn't' even know it was in there whatever it is, this machine has never been open. ???
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... whatever it is, this machine has never been open. ???
Then this was an eye-opening as well as a machine-opening experience for you! Ever since my Aggie days, as soon as I get anything I start tearing it apart to see what makes it tick & how it can be improved.
There are no pstats in Gaggia's. The self-priming-valve (SPV) is Gaggia's miscarried attempt to dumb down some of their machines. They figured the typical noob wouldn't be able to figure out how to prime a boiler so they came up with this brain-fart.
Supposedly, it permits air to escape from the boiler during startup, preventing air locks. Then, once the boiler is full, a pea-valve is supposed to close, stopping hot water & steam from venting into the water reservoir. Guess what? THEY DON"T WORK!
I once had a handful of new Carezza's that a friend bought as Christmas gifts for selected employees. He asked me to check them out and install PID's & OPV's. While testing I left each machine on & idle for a couple of hours, and the water in each machine's reservoir reached ~160?F. I was concerned because the Ulka pumps have a maximum temp rating of 50?C - I saw the possibility of premature pump failure at these temps.
When I asked Gaggia about it they replied that it was a tried & tested design and that they were happy with it. That's when I decided to come up with a mod to correct the problem myself. The file I attached to an earlier post was the result of that effort, and I'm happy to report that it's become one of the most common mods made to Gaggia home espresso machines.
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It was fun looking inside the machine. What is this thing a pressure stat?
It's got an adjustment slot on the end of it accessible from the outside....I wish it was an OPV..I didn't' even know it was in there whatever it is, this machine has never been open. ???
That's the hi-pressure valve (similar to a pop-off valve on commercial machines). Gaggia says they're adjustable but they're full of hooey!
Gaggia does make an adjustable OPV for your boiler (shown below). It's a simple bolt in replacement for the OEM water inlet fitting (#36 in the parts drawing). They cost about $40 (+S&H) and they're well worth the effort & expense.
Without an adjustable OPV, the group pressure is going to be whatever the pump is capable of (~14 bar). That's too high for espresso but an adjustable OPV lets you reduce that to the recommended 9 bar. This one mod alone will dramatically increase the amount & quality of crema.
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That's the hi-pressure valve (similar to a pop-off valve on commercial machines). Gaggia says they're adjustable but they're full of hooey!
It's interesting...
Why are they full of hooey I have to ask because it does have an adjustment on it that looks like some other OPV's I've seen before. I'm wondering what adjusting it would do.
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That's the hi-pressure valve (similar to a pop-off valve on commercial machines). Gaggia says they're adjustable but they're full of hooey!
It's interesting...
Why are they full of hooey I have to ask because it does have an adjustment on it that looks like some other OPV's I've seen before. I'm wondering what adjusting it would do.
The adjustments won't hold in that valve. Five minutes after you've spent an hour getting it close to 9 bar it'll jump up to 12 bar or down to 6 bar. It's useful to protect against excessive pressure but it's worthless when it comes to regulating group pressure.
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Without an adjustable OPV, the group pressure is going to be whatever the pump is capable of (~14 bar). That's too high for espresso but an adjustable OPV lets you reduce that to the recommended 9 bar. This one mod alone will dramatically increase the amount & quality of crema.
I don't have a crema deficiency but I am wondering about pressure at the pump vs pressure at the puck. I was reading something a while back about Gaggia loosing pressure at the pea valve so even at 14 bar some is going to be dumped by passing the pea valve. They were actually concerned about loosing too much pressure and being under 9 bar IIRC.
If I add an OPV and kill the SPV is there any way to deal with the pea valve (do you know about this issue)?
Of course without any of these mods you make adjustments for these things at the grind/tamp to the best effect for the shots....but making better output a the machine would be preferable. I'm guessing if I made improvements at the machine I'd re-adjust on my end for improved shots but a dramatic increase in crema would not be my focus.
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I don't have a crema deficiency but I am wondering about pressure at the pump vs pressure at the puck. I was reading something a while back about Gaggia loosing pressure at the pea valve so even at 14 bar some is going to be dumped by passing the pea valve. They were actually concerned about loosing too much pressure and being under 9 bar IIRC.
If I add an OPV and kill the SPV is there any way to deal with the pea valve (do you know about this issue)?
Of course without any of these mods you make adjustments for these things at the grind/tamp to the best effect for the shots....but making better output a the machine would be preferable. I'm guessing if I made improvements at the machine I'd re-adjust on my end for improved shots but a dramatic increase in crema would not be my focus.
No, you're not short on crema! ;D But you probably would notice a slight improvement if you added a few mods to your Carezza.
Are you referring to the "pea-valve" in the group valve or in the self-priming-valve? The group valve is seldom a problem so I'll assume you mean the SPV. The mod I developed eliminates the SPV altogether; trust me, it's not a loss at all.
When the SPV leaks hot water & steam back into the reservoir, it can dramatically affect group/brew pressure and steam capacity. There was no point in trying to maintain a proper brew pressure when an indeterminate amount of pressurized water was being bled away through the #%!*ing SPV! It was worse with steam pressure - you could be reduced to a mere trickle of steam as the water in the reservoir was being heated to 160?F and above. The removal of the SPV in the steam valve and replacing it with a 1/16 NPT brass pipe plug solves all that.
You can make adjustments for an improperly tuned espresso machine, just like you can for an improperly tuned car. But are you getting everything from those beans that you paid for, or are you tossing the good stuff in the trash like you pump good hydrocarbons out the tailpipe of the car?
:icon_bigsmurf:
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Are you referring to the "pea-valve" in the group valve or in the self-priming-valve?
The group valve.
They were saying at brewing pressure the valve is opened and it bleeds off pressure (away from the puck). Effect is that you never really get 12bar at the puck because at whatever point the spring holding the pea valve closed is overcome and pressure is lost.
I don't know.....I just read it is all. :-\
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Are you referring to the "pea-valve" in the group valve or in the self-priming-valve?
The group valve.
They were saying at brewing pressure the valve is opened and it bleeds off pressure (away from the puck). Effect is that you never really get 12bar at the puck because at whatever point the spring holding the pea valve closed is overcome and pressure is lost.
I don't know.....I just read it is all. :-\
The group valve is rated at ~1.2 bar. It's a one-way valve and when the shot is being pulled it's completely opened and has no impact on group pressure. It's purpose is to prevent coffee being backflushed into the boiler when the shot is finished and to reduce the leakage at the group head of water & steam when they're pulled through the steam wand. The valve often leaks pretty bad so I suggest folks put a small cup or glass under the group when pulling water & steaming. Some folks use a blank backflushing disk to stop the leaking.
When you do preventive maintenance of the shower screen & holder, you should remove the group valve also, disassemble it, and soak it in a citric acid solution to remove mineral deposits. This will permit the valve to close completely and stop the coffee in the group head from entering the boiler. You should never try to backflush a machine with a group valve; doing so could cause the alkaline detergent into the boiler and damage the aluminum.
And if you want to know what the group pressure is a simple portafilter pressure gauge can be assembled from Ace Hardware parts for ~$16.
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The group valve is rated at ~1.2 bar. It's a one-way valve and when the shot is being pulled it's completely opened and has no impact on group pressure.
Yeah, I see what you are saying.....I don't know what those guys were looking at.
Now I see why the SPV is the weak link.
So tell me this, what happens when you defeat it as far as potential harm to the boiler. I always pull water from the steam wand upon start up anyway so I am not concerned with that as much as somebody bumping the machine, or playing around with it and pull/no prime when I'm not home. Can you ruin the boiler, run it dry, or cause any damage air locking it?
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The group valve is rated at ~1.2 bar. It's a one-way valve and when the shot is being pulled it's completely opened and has no impact on group pressure.
Yeah, I see what you are saying.....I don't know what those guys were looking at.
Now I see why the SPV is the weak link.
So tell me this, what happens when you defeat it as far as potential harm to the boiler. I always pull water from the steam wand upon start up anyway so I am not concerned with that as much as somebody bumping the machine, or playing around with it and pull/no prime when I'm not home. Can you ruin the boiler, run it dry, or cause any damage air locking it?
No harm, no foul! Only the lower priced noob machines have the SPV. The Classic & Baby's don't - their owners are expected to be able to prime a boiler the old fashioned way; open the steam valve, turn the pump on, and when water flows from the wand shut the pump off. To my way of thinking, the SPV is an insult to noobs!
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Gaggia does make an adjustable OPV for your boiler (shown below). It's a simple bolt in replacement for the OEM water inlet fitting (#36 in the parts drawing). They cost about $40 (+S&H) and they're well worth the effort & expense.
The parts description is funky.
"Gaggia water inlet fitting with adjustable Overpressure valve. Use for Gaggia semiautomatic home espresso machines. Do not attempt to adjust pressure."
:-\
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Gaggia does make an adjustable OPV for your boiler (shown below). It's a simple bolt in replacement for the OEM water inlet fitting (#36 in the parts drawing). They cost about $40 (+S&H) and they're well worth the effort & expense.
The parts description is funky.
"Gaggia water inlet fitting with adjustable Overpressure valve. Use for Gaggia semiautomatic home espresso machines. Do not attempt to adjust pressure."
:-\
Yeah and my bolt on hitch says 'do not cut or weld' (just let it bottom out at the bottom of any hill you want to go up) they paid a lawyer a lot of money to write that line :)
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Gaggia does make an adjustable OPV for your boiler (shown below). It's a simple bolt in replacement for the OEM water inlet fitting (#36 in the parts drawing). They cost about $40 (+S&H) and they're well worth the effort & expense.
The parts description is funky.
"Gaggia water inlet fitting with adjustable Overpressure valve. Use for Gaggia semiautomatic home espresso machines. Do not attempt to adjust pressure."
:-\
I've laughed at/with Edward over his description too often to count. Something must be getting lost in the translation in his head? ;D
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So, the Silvia wand would be a better wand for making microfoam? How hard is it to retrofit the Gaggia wand to the Silvia wand? Plug and play, or more than that?
In a few days I'll be able to tell you more about the differences in the stock Carezza wand and the Silvia wand mod.
I can tell you now that if you have to open the machine or not it really isn't very hard to put in a Silvia wand. I had to open my machine up as noted a few pages back but either way it's a pretty easy deal. Killing the auto purge valve is proving to be a little trickier but I have more ideas to try soon...
After some initial testing I think this wand is much faster and it's very different...more testing required.
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In a few days I'll be able to tell you more about the differences in the stock Carezza wand and the Silvia wand mod.
I can tell you now that if you have to open the machine or not it really isn't very hard to put in a Silvia wand. I had to open my machine up as noted a few pages back but either way it's a pretty easy deal. Killing the auto purge valve is proving to be a little trickier but I have more ideas to try soon...
After some initial testing I think this wand is much faster and it's very different...more testing required.
Congratulations on your new acquisition John.
:)
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So, the Silvia wand would be a better wand for making microfoam? How hard is it to retrofit the Gaggia wand to the Silvia wand? Plug and play, or more than that?
In a few days I'll be able to tell you more about the differences in the stock Carezza wand and the Silvia wand mod.
I can tell you now that if you have to open the machine or not it really isn't very hard to put in a Silvia wand. I had to open my machine up as noted a few pages back but either way it's a pretty easy deal. Killing the auto purge valve is proving to be a little trickier but I have more ideas to try soon...
After some initial testing I think this wand is much faster and it's very different...more testing required.
Let me know when you figure you've gotten the most from that mod; I have a goodie that's the next logical step for that mod - a 3-hole tip for the Silvia wand - that I can loan you for evaluation.
BTW - don't judge the Gaggia's steaming until you've done something with the self-priming-valve. It's been known to steal all of a Gaggia's already limited steam capacity.
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BTW - don't judge the Gaggia's steaming until you've done something with the self-priming-valve. It's been known to steal all of a Gaggia's already limited steam capacity.
I had more than enough steam with the stock wand and the Silvia wand seems to deliver more focused steam/faster response so capacity is not a problem.
But this SPV thing is a problem. I tried to cap off the line and it only caused pressure to develop at the barb fitting and leak up top. I could not find anything at Lowes that would thread in to plug it off because the best fit was 5/16 X24 tpi but all they stocked was 18 tpi :-\
I am thinking of filling up the hole in the barb fitting with JB weld and reinstalling it.
For now I had to make a temporary solution because I cut the silicone return hose, now it's too short to get back into the tank. So I took some 1/4" tube and extended this line way outside of the machine. What is interesting is seeing what happens with this valve. The big problem is during steaming...this thing pretty much bleeds steam directly into the water tank for as long as steam is activated. >:( The tube gets HOT and there is no doubt that it's heating the fill water (just as you said). If somebody doesn't want to do this mod they really should get that return tube out of the water however they can figure to do it.
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But this SPV thing is a problem. I tried to cap off the line and it only caused pressure to develop at the barb fitting and leak up top. I could not find anything at Lowes that would thread in to plug it off because the best fit was 5/16 X24 tpi but all they stocked was 18 tpi :-\
If you're ever in the area I just received 10 of the 1/16-27 brass plugs from McMaster & Carr. They cost all of 47¢, so I figure I can donate one to the cause.
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If you're ever in the area...
Do you know how hard it is to pry a Sugar Lander "out of town"? ;D
I may have to pack a bag and head over.
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If you're ever in the area...
Do you know how hard it is to pry a Sugar Lander "out of town"? ;D
I may have to pack a bag and head over.
Are you far from Robert John?
:)
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If you're ever in the area...
Do you know how hard it is to pry a Sugar Lander "out of town"? ;D
I may have to pack a bag and head over.
Whatsamatta, won't they let you leave the pea-farm yet? How much longer before you're eligible for parole? ;)
Insiders joke - When I was a kid Sugarland was only known for two things; Imperial Sugar Mill & TDC's prison farm.
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If you're ever in the area...
Do you know how hard it is to pry a Sugar Lander "out of town"? ;D
I may have to pack a bag and head over.
Are you far from Robert John?
:)
Too close for my comfort! :D
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If you're ever in the area...
Do you know how hard it is to pry a Sugar Lander "out of town"? ;D
I may have to pack a bag and head over.
Are you far from Robert John?
:)
Too close for my comfort! :D
Well ... if he has to pack a bag to come over that would indicate some hours will be passing.
:)
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If you're ever in the area...
Do you know how hard it is to pry a Sugar Lander "out of town"? ;D
I may have to pack a bag and head over.
Tell ya what - I'll be over that way (Half Price Books on Hwy 6) this Thursday. I can either meet ya at the store or drop by your place if it's not too far from there?
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If you're ever in the area...
Do you know how hard it is to pry a Sugar Lander "out of town"? ;D
I may have to pack a bag and head over.
Are you far from Robert John?
:)
Too close for my comfort! :D
Well ... if he has to pack a bag to come over that would indicate some hours will be passing.
:)
Maybe he was referring to stickin' his 9mm into his purse? :o
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If you're ever in the area...
Do you know how hard it is to pry a Sugar Lander "out of town"? ;D
I may have to pack a bag and head over.
Are you far from Robert John?
:)
Too close for my comfort! :D
Well ... if he has to pack a bag to come over that would indicate some hours will be passing.
:)
Maybe he was referring to stickin' his 9mm into his purse? :o
I know you Texans like the thought of being secure ... but isn't a 9mm a bit extreme?
:)
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I know you Texans like the thought of being secure ... but isn't a 9mm a bit extreme?
:)
NO
I don't think you're getting into EXTREME (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10001&productId=14807&langId=-1&isFirearm=Y) class until you upgrade into one of these babies.
-Stubbie
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I know you Texans like the thought of being secure ... but isn't a 9mm a bit extreme?
:)
NO
I don't think you're getting into EXTREME ([url]http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10001&productId=14807&langId=-1&isFirearm=Y[/url]) class until you upgrade into one of these babies.
-Stubbie
Damn, I was perfectly content with my Dirty Harry 44 magnum until you showed me that!
Thanks a lot stubs. ::)
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NO
I don't think you're getting into EXTREME ([url]http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10001&productId=14807&langId=-1&isFirearm=Y[/url]) class until you upgrade into one of these babies.
-Stubbie
And such a bargain at nearly $1700.
::)
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NO
I don't think you're getting into EXTREME ([url]http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10001&productId=14807&langId=-1&isFirearm=Y[/url]) class until you upgrade into one of these babies.
-Stubbie
And such a bargain at nearly $1700.
::)
I like the long gun sling. It'd take forever to unholster that cannon and it'd probably require the use of both hands. It'd be damn near impossible to get the drop on someone.
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Tell ya what - I'll be over that way (Half Price Books on Hwy 6) this Thursday.
What time of day?
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Tell ya what - I'll be over that way (Half Price Books on Hwy 6) this Thursday.
What time of day?
I'll probably get over there ~10 AM(ish).
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I know you Texans like the thought of being secure ... but isn't a 9mm a bit extreme?
I have a concealed carry license and sometimes do carry a 9mm with me....if i thought it was extreme I would not have spent the time and money to get the license. :-\
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I know you Texans like the thought of being secure ... but isn't a 9mm a bit extreme?
I have a concealed carry license and sometimes do carry a 9mm with me....if i thought it was extreme I would not have spent the time and money to get the license. :-\
I prefer the 40 caliber Glock 27 - more stopping power! Puts 'em down, keeps 'em down. I keep mine in my waistband - some gals are turned on by the smell of Hoppe's #9.
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Sigh...
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I prefer the 40 caliber Glock 27 - more stopping power! Puts 'em down, keeps 'em down.
Well then you won't like this but I am thinking of getting something even smaller than the 9. :-X
If we had open carry I might consider a Desert Eagle but we don't and for me carry is sort of a PITA....I'd like to get a small pocket carry even knowing it's limitations.
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Sigh...
All of our Kung Fu is not as good as some of the other of us is. :P
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Sigh...
All of our Kung Fu is not as good as some of the other of us is. :P
True, true.
It's always tiring to hear the 40 (or whatever) is better than 9 comments, you and I have discussed it loads of times but I never hesitate to throw a "sigh" out there whenever the flavor of the day caliber is thrown against the 9.
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It's always tiring to hear the 40 (or whatever) is better than 9 comments...
And I add that the 380 you will carry beats the hell out of the 45 back at home that was too heavy/hot/uncomfortable...
I have pretty much a sub compact 9 and it's still a chunk to haul around after a while. I don't know how the mall commandos do it with a 45, back up 38, extra mags, speed loaders, 5 led flashlight, 2 tactical folders, pepper spray.....Concealing makes it suck IMO.
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Sigh...
All of our Kung Fu is not as good as some of the other of us is. :P
True, true.
It's always tiring to hear the 40 (or whatever) is better than 9 comments, you and I have discussed it loads of times but I never hesitate to throw a "sigh" out there whenever the flavor of the day caliber is thrown against the 9.
I actually prefer my M1911 Colt Gold Cup 45 ACP for shear stopping power and accuracy (a heavy subsonic bullet has a LOT of destructive energy). Last time I had it on the machine mount at the range it's still holding a 4" group at 50 yards. It's kind of difficult to carry though, the match sights get caught on things that I'd prefer it didn't.
The 40 is a good alternative, but has less kinetic energy than the 45 ACP, but more than the 9mm (using standard ball ammo). Whichever you use, put one in the X ring and it'll stop anyone.
I wonder if I can PID my Glock? Hmm...
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Sigh...
All of our Kung Fu is not as good as some of the other of us is. :P
True, true.
It's always tiring to hear the 40 (or whatever) is better than 9 comments, you and I have discussed it loads of times but I never hesitate to throw a "sigh" out there whenever the flavor of the day caliber is thrown against the 9.
I actually prefer my M1911 Colt Gold Cup 45 ACP for shear stopping power and accuracy (a heavy subsonic bullet has a LOT of destructive energy). Last time I had it on the machine mount at the range it's still holding a 4" group at 50 yards. It's kind of difficult to carry though, the match sights get caught on things that I'd prefer it didn't.
The 40 is a good alternative, but has less kinetic energy than the 45 ACP, but more than the 9mm (using standard ball ammo). Whichever you use, put one in the X ring and it'll stop anyone.
I wonder if I can PID my Glock? Hmm...
My comments will always go back to who, what, when, where, why and how.
And before we get into a long drawn out debate I'll state my experience in this matter - I've got a lot, operating at the pointiest of pointy, as one of the pointiest of pointy guys, in the pointiest of pointy situations. Over a million rounds down range. I don't think there is a caliber or wpn system I haven't fired, with the exception of the more recent calibers like the new 6mm for the PDW or what have you.
I've said it for years, if you throw a rock and hit someone in the eye it'll do the job, a 9mm rock does the job very well. 9mm has stopping power - 2 x head and 1 x COM.
1911 is a good wpn in the right hands. But for what purpose? If it's to shoot match sights at long distance there's better wpns, if it's because it holds a tight group at 50 who realistically ever shoots more than 30 feet on average and for that matter what experienced high-stress shooter uses the sights, if it's for the destructive power there's more destructive, if it's for reliability there's equally as reliable, if it's because of an affinity to less than 10rds on-board uhmmmm, oh yeah that's not a good thing. The 1911 will do a job, but what's the job, right?
So yeah, what's the job, each one can have a different solution... Bedside wpn for night intruder? Underground parking lot at midnight? Concealed at a function? Backup to a primary? Interoperability with other wpns? 1000 meters? Etc, etc.
I ain't trying to argue but I have a hard time holding my tongue on any advice that falls into the bigger is better statements.
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Sigh...
All of our Kung Fu is not as good as some of the other of us is. :P
True, true.
It's always tiring to hear the 40 (or whatever) is better than 9 comments, you and I have discussed it loads of times but I never hesitate to throw a "sigh" out there whenever the flavor of the day caliber is thrown against the 9.
I actually prefer my M1911 Colt Gold Cup 45 ACP for shear stopping power and accuracy (a heavy subsonic bullet has a LOT of destructive energy). Last time I had it on the machine mount at the range it's still holding a 4" group at 50 yards. It's kind of difficult to carry though, the match sights get caught on things that I'd prefer it didn't.
The 40 is a good alternative, but has less kinetic energy than the 45 ACP, but more than the 9mm (using standard ball ammo). Whichever you use, put one in the X ring and it'll stop anyone.
I wonder if I can PID my Glock? Hmm...
My comments will always go back to who, what, when, where, why and how.
And before we get into a long drawn out debate I'll state my experience in this matter - I've got a lot, operating at the pointiest of pointy, as one of the pointiest of pointy guys, in the pointiest of pointy situations. Over a million rounds down range. I don't think there is a caliber or wpn system I haven't fired, with the exception of the more recent calibers like the new 6mm for the PDW or what have you.
I've said it for years, if you throw a rock and hit someone in the eye it'll do the job, a 9mm rock does the job very well. 9mm has stopping power - 2 x head and 1 x COM.
1911 is a good wpn in the right hands. But for what purpose? If it's to shoot match sights at long distance there's better wpns, if it's because it holds a tight group at 50 who realistically ever shoots more than 30 feet on average and for that matter what experienced high-stress shooter uses the sights, if it's for the destructive power there's more destructive, if it's for reliability there's equally as reliable, if it's because of an affinity to less than 10rds on-board uhmmmm, oh yeah that's not a good thing. The 1911 will do a job, but what's the job, right?
So yeah, what's the job, each one can have a different solution... Bedside wpn for night intruder? Underground parking lot at midnight? Concealed at a function? Backup to a primary? Interoperability with other wpns? 1000 meters? Etc, etc.
I ain't trying to argue but I have a hard time holding my tongue on any advice that falls into the bigger is better statements.
I couldn't even guess at how many rounds I've put down range: 3 ½ years on the USASETAF, USAEUR, & All-Army pistol teams, shooting NMC's 3 - 5 times a days, pretty much year round, except for travel days. Twenty years after that shooting competitively whenever my schedule would permit it until tendinitis forced my retirement.
Yeah, we could probably swap some war stories about our preferred weapons. For home defense I've got two short-barreled Remington pumps and my M1911 45 ACP hardball & wad cutter guns. Everywhere else, I like the accurized Glock 40 cal for it's feel and accuracy & if I need more than 9 rounds I stepped into some real shit.
It really doesn't matter what you use, if you know how to use it you'll have an edge. When I was a young man I could throw a baseball hard enough and accurately enough that it could've been considered a lethal weapon. Put 'em where ya want 'em and you'll win.
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Well it's always good to know the other guys experience and in this case it sounds like you've got a few t-shirts. Yup, baseball in the eye will do it.
Shooting my P226 in Delta's killing room and on the outdoor ranges for the better part of a day next to their operators who were using the 1911 made for some good-natured mockery... when they were calling out "empty magazine" every three seconds. ;-)
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Well it's always good to know the other guys experience and in this case it sounds like you've got a few t-shirts. Yup, baseball in the eye will do it.
Shooting my P226 in Delta's killing room and on the outdoor ranges for the better part of a day next to their operators who were using the 1911 made for some good-natured mockery... when they were calling out "empty magazine" every three seconds. ;-)
When were you at Bragg?
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Well it's always good to know the other guys experience and in this case it sounds like you've got a few t-shirts. Yup, baseball in the eye will do it.
Shooting my P226 in Delta's killing room and on the outdoor ranges for the better part of a day next to their operators who were using the 1911 made for some good-natured mockery... when they were calling out "empty magazine" every three seconds. ;-)
When were you at Bragg?
In the 90's, I was doing some cross-trg with the boys, observing some of their selection course and doing some VIP protection schtuff with the Secret Service.
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Well it's always good to know the other guys experience and in this case it sounds like you've got a few t-shirts. Yup, baseball in the eye will do it.
Shooting my P226 in Delta's killing room and on the outdoor ranges for the better part of a day next to their operators who were using the 1911 made for some good-natured mockery... when they were calling out "empty magazine" every three seconds. ;-)
When were you at Bragg?
In the 90's, I was doing some cross-trg with the boys, observing some of their selection course and doing some VIP protection schtuff with the Secret Service.
I spent a few months there in the 60's, training for some insertion & extraction work in Nam. Those guys were crazy but the atmosphere was relaxed. I never did get to eat any snakes though.
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Well it's always good to know the other guys experience and in this case it sounds like you've got a few t-shirts. Yup, baseball in the eye will do it.
Shooting my P226 in Delta's killing room and on the outdoor ranges for the better part of a day next to their operators who were using the 1911 made for some good-natured mockery... when they were calling out "empty magazine" every three seconds. ;-)
When were you at Bragg?
In the 90's, I was doing some cross-trg with the boys, observing some of their selection course and doing some VIP protection schtuff with the Secret Service.
I spent a few months there in the 60's, training for some insertion & extraction work in Nam. Those guys were crazy but the atmosphere was relaxed. I never did get to eat any snakes though.
Yeah, that would have been Project Delta in the 60's, a different beast than Delta Team (or CAG as it's known now) which didn't start until the late 70's. When I was there in the 90's it was a good bunch of guys, in my experience all the tier 1 international elite teams have the same feel to them, just different languages and inside jokes. I enjoyed working with them whenever we bumped into each other. I'd have no problems with one of the Delta assaulters watching my six, they are good to go.
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First update on steam:
The vid Tex posted prompted me to do a similar test. I was looking for microfoam capabilities not overall steaming power because I know the Carezza has sufficient steam for one drink and everything I test will be based on one drink per session (except temp testing to check lag times between sessions for proper temps).
Placing the o-ring where they want it ([url]http://www.wholelattelove.com/Gaggia/gaggia_pannarello.cfm[/url]) I plunged the wand into a clear glass of water and got the same thing the vid shows. A constant introduction of big air. Over the years I have wrestled several attempts at managing that air intake from wrapping it in saran wrap to surfing it at the milk level....mixed results.
I moved the o-ring to the position in the second post and re-tested. Upon initial opening of the steam there is a tiny burst of small bubbles followed by.......swirling action with no air introduction.
I am not sure why I never thought to do something as simple as looking directly into a clear glass even though I have steamed several pitchers of water to test swirling patterns. Anyhow it's a significant improvement (towards control) for 10 seconds of your time. Anybody that has this style turbo frother should grab a clear glass with water test both o-ring positions and decide what to do.
Breathing new life into an old thread: John, someone asked me if you used the outer shell of the pannerello after you repositioned the o-ring or left the inner part bare?
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Breathing new life into an old thread: John, someone asked me if you used the outer shell of the pannerello after you repositioned the o-ring or left the inner part bare?
I repositioned the o-ring and reinstalled the wandelero pannerello..
I think it was the easiest and most productive thing possible to do with that wacky wand. That being said everybody should do the Silvia wand swap but the o-ring trick is a super quick interim measure.
Edit just to say....I sure did love the tinfoil bamboo.