Green Coffee Buying Club
Coffee Discussion boards => Hardware & Equipment => Topic started by: Warrior372 on October 26, 2009, 11:58:26 AM
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Hello Everyone,
I am tossing around the idea of building a fluid bed roaster and I have a few questions for all of you. What is the average air flow rate on machines such as a Sivetz 1.25lb machine or Sonofresco's 1 and 2 pounders? Is the air flow rate adjustable on these machines? If so, what is the range? What is the temperature range on them?
Thanks for the help!
-Mike
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Mike,
I can't help you, but think that 7over is the member to ask. He's been a bit busy lately, and may not see this. If you don't see him post before long, send him a PM. Pete designed the roaster his Second Chance Coffee Co. is using. That beast is a FBR, and I think its range is from 2.5-16lbs.
I hope you have deep pockets and metal fabricating equipment. ;)
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Hello Everyone,
I am tossing around the idea of building a fluid bed roaster and I have a few questions for all of you. What is the average air flow rate on machines such as a Sivetz 1.25lb machine or Sonofresco's 1 and 2 pounders? Is the air flow rate adjustable on these machines? If so, what is the range? What is the temperature range on them?
Thanks for the help!
-Mike
7over definitely has better answers.. if you are going to dabble I can tell you that the green beans are just barely moving in the 1# sonofresco at the beginning of the roast, and the speed stays the same throughout the roast... the heat cuts on and off but the fan stays steady.. so far in my experience the temp range on any roaster needs to be a very controllable 200 to 500 deg F (you should not need 500 deg... I like insurance)
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All I have is a very non scientific answer that sounds sarcastic.....can't figure out a non sarcastic way to say it.
I think you want enough to fluidize the bed without blowing past/through it. :-\
Just enough to loft IOW.
The fluidizing isn't roasting it's agitating.
But ask 7 over. ;D
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All I have is a very non scientific answer that sounds sarcastic.....can't figure out a non sarcastic way to say it.
I think you want enough to fluidize the bed without blowing past/through it. :-\
Just enough to loft IOW.
The fluidizing isn't roasting it's agitating.
But ask 7 over. ;D
what he said... the beans are heavy at the beginning so good loft at the beginning is launch at FC
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Hello Everyone,
I am tossing around the idea of building a fluid bed roaster and I have a few questions for all of you. What is the average air flow rate on machines such as a Sivetz 1.25lb machine or Sonofresco's 1 and 2 pounders? Is the air flow rate adjustable on these machines? If so, what is the range? What is the temperature range on them?
Thanks for the help!
-Mike
Check these guys out if you are planning on building your own roaster...
http://www.homeroasters.org/ (http://www.homeroasters.org/)
tell Eddie that Gary sent you ;-)
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Thank you to everyone for the info so far. I know how much I want / need the beans to move, and I know that the size of the roasting chamber and the amount of beans I want to roast play a factor. I am just after specific air flow rates so I know if I can use a heat gun in conjunction with a heat gun or if I need something more like a heat blower in conjunction with a high power fan. Each heat gun / blower and fan you look at has specific flow rates, some are adjustable some are not. Sixty dollar heat guns from the hardware store have adjustable heat ranges from about 200-500 degrees fahrenheit.
I am sure that throughout the process I will have to purchase and return several items to get it right. I just want to limit the number of times I need to do that :).
Thank you for adding that the flow rate on the 1lb sonofresco is steady throughout the roast. Stuff like that will be very helpful! Is the heating element turning on and off to adjust to the roast temperatures you programmed the sonofresco to hit at different times in the roast?
Gary, thank you for the homeroasters.org recommendation. Some people have some pretty crazy ways of roasting! I thought I was creative until I saw what some of those engineers did!
Thanks,
Mike
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the velocity of the airflow plays a part too.
10 CFM through a 1 foot diameter pipe is probably not going to move the beans too much..... 10 CFM through a 3 inch diameter pipe will move them pretty well.... so if you are having problems with bean movement, you also might want to look into the diameter of your roasting chamber.
you mention heat guns having variable heat, they do this by opening a louver on the side to let more air in / out of them I believe, you might also be able to use this as a flow control too.
Another thing to remember is, some beans are kind of... abrasive and don't float very well, while others rattle and roll really easy.
Aaron
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the profile on the sono is always the same... it is just longer for darker roasts... this is not the best way, just the sono way... I remember seeing a home roaster with a heat gun for heat and a leaf blower for fan... (I don't know if it worked)
I would get the hottest heat gun, you can turn them down but you can not turn them up past high..
I separated the heat and fan on a cheaper Warner heat gun... same as the hot air poppers.. so I could hook it up to my PID for a bread machine roaster... the $20 one is a little wimpy ... hopefully I can tweak the $50 one the same way...
I don't know how much you can roast off of just the heat gun... and even with the really hot one and a second fan you will probably rapidly loose temp... maybe 2 or 3 heat guns into a manifold???
the heat guns most people use for dog bowl and bread machine roasters is simply a heat coil in a wind tunnel.. no louvers that I have seen
I have thought about heating elements out of pottery kilns and a squirrel cage blower... but if I go that wrought I will build a drum roaster instead... ceramic drum?!?!
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Grainger has a heat gun that is adjustable from 300-500 degrees with an airflow velocity of 3000FPM and a volume of 30CFM. Unfortunatley that does not mean anything to me. That is why I am curious of the airflow velocity and volume of the Sonofresco and Sivetz. Achieving roasting temps really should not be an issue, as you can purchase a heat blower and most seem to be adjustable up to 1650 Fahrenheit. I will put the receiving end of a digital thermostat in the roasting chamber so I can measure the actual air temp within the chamber.
I know that if I use a fan to supplement the airflow velocity and volume from the heat gun that it will be throwing ambient room temperature air into the chamber too, so I will have to have a gun that can adjust up high enough temp wise to outweigh the ambient air.
A PID would be optimal, but unfortunately I have no idea how to rig one of those to a heat gun :) .
It is funny you mentioned the fluid bed roaster that uses the leaf blower and the heat gun! There is a video of that on youtube. I just typed in fluid bed coffee roasters and his came up. It seemed to get a nice result too!
Thank you for the continued input!
-Mike
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Now I think there is enough info to say you need "more".
Fluidizing 1.25#'s of beans is going to take more than a heat gun for sure.
I think more than 2, 3, or 4 heat guns even.
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There is a difference between a heat gun and a heat blower. The air volume of a normal $50 dollar heat gun is about 7 CFM and from a $125 dollar heat blower is 30-45 CFM. It is like a blow dryer on steroids. Then if you get into industrial heat blowers they go up to 800 LPM and fully adjustable temperature up to 1650 degrees. One of the recommended uses on the most expensive model is deicing construction cranes. . . . and it weighs under 20 lbs. I feel that it is safe to assume something between the two extremes I just mentioned is being used in the sonofresco and the sivitz, but obviously in a much flashier package. I highly doubt they invented a new way to heat and blow around air. They just put a cool exterior around a heat source, fan and a computer. The readily available fluid bed roasters are very cool. . . trust me I am saying anything bad about any of them :) !
Sivitz actually uses one of the hot air guns that is around 30 CMF in their 30 gram gun roaster. So, obviously a 1lb sono or 1.25lb sivitz must use more than 30 CMF. . . .
I am just trying to gauge what I need to to buy in terms of the heat source and possibly a type of fan to supplement airflow. Unfortunately the industrial heat blowers I have found are only available online, so I cannot go and play with them.
Thanks,
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I've looked at this manufacturer (http://www.steinel.net/products/heatguns/electronic_heatguns.cfm) for a couple years.
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I got some feedback from Sivetz. They stated their airflow is adjustable, and it needs to be because the top of the roasting chamber is open to the ambient air. They also said that the temperature at the top of the roasting chamber is 480 degrees during roasting.
Thanks,
Mike
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Now I think there is enough info to say you need "more".
Fluidizing 1.25#'s of beans is going to take more than a heat gun for sure.
I think more than 2, 3, or 4 heat guns even.
The Sonofresco (http://sonofresco.coffeetec.com/specifications/) is a ~1 lb roaster and per specification produces 31,000 BTU/hr for the propane version
Input rating (propane): 31,000 BTU/hr
a heat gun (http://www.action-electronics.com/heatguns.htm) typically has:
Dual Heat - 600 or 1,000° F - Nozzle Attachments included
1200 watts max 120vac UL Listed, 115V AC A dual range heat gun for use in heating shrink tube and drying coatings, adhesives, etc. Low temperature range setting produces a nominal 700°F (2,000 BTU's), high range 975°F (4,000 BTU's). Maximum setting draws 10 Amps, low heat draws 5 Amps.
It is possible to get more BTU from a heat gun but you will need a propane heat gun (http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=6359) that boasts 212,000 BTU/hr
but it has a hefty price tag of Only $599.00
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I think gutting one of those cannon heater things might be more on track than a pack of heat guns.
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If I was considering building a roaster from scratch I'd probably start with the heater, specifically a purpose-built element, not try to adapt something. http://www.omega.com/heaters/hsc.html
edited: Another thing I'd consider is recirculating the exhaust gases into the air intake (not 100% practical with gas burners). Basically, once you've got the air hot keep using it - the power necessary to reheat exhaust air is much less than bringing room air up to temp.
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I think gutting one of those cannon heater things might be more on track than a pack of heat guns.
Hmm.. my brother has a civil war cannon... coffee roasted and delivered in one pop... get that anvil in the mix and it could beground at the same time :D
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Tex, the idea of recircing the hot air is not a new one. Problem is, the equipment to handle that kind of heat, ie the motor and fan blading, can get expensive due to the insulation needed. If one could mount a motor outside the heat tunnel with some kind of fan inside to run the air round and round it might work, however once the beans start cracking id think you might need to introduce fresh air and vent some of the old air out so you don't get super smoke flavored beans from the roasting smoke.
Aaron
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The Sonofresco ([url]http://sonofresco.coffeetec.com/specifications/[/url]) is a ~1 lb roaster and per specification produces 31,000 BTU/hr for the propane version
It is possible to get more BTU from a heat gun but you will need a propane heat gun ([url]http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=6359[/url]) that boasts 212,000 BTU/hr
but it has a hefty price tag of Only $599.00
This dude pumps out 50K for $99.
No telling what the CFM's are or if they will loft a #.
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=154996-88644-RMC-FA50C&lpage=none
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The Sonofresco ([url]http://sonofresco.coffeetec.com/specifications/[/url]) is a ~1 lb roaster and per specification produces 31,000 BTU/hr for the propane version
It is possible to get more BTU from a heat gun but you will need a propane heat gun ([url]http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=6359[/url]) that boasts 212,000 BTU/hr
but it has a hefty price tag of Only $599.00
This dude pumps out 50K for $99.
No telling what the CFM's are or if they will lot a #.
[url]http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=154996-88644-RMC-FA50C&lpage=none[/url]
that would work ;D
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that would work ;D
I should get one, turn it on the side. stick a charcoal chimney on top of it with a screen in the bottom and just see what it would do.
Who knows...it might do a pound or .75 or 1.25 or .50..who cares, it should probably roast something and the batch size could be adjusted to get in a good window.
If I didn't have too much to do already I would because it looks fast, easy, and cheap.
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The sono has an air deflector that spins the beans.
Maybe Tex will shoot a photo of the air deflector in his... could easily make something similar to get the beans to stir.
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This dude pumps out 50K for $99.
No telling what the CFM's are or if they will loft a #.
[url]http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=154996-88644-RMC-FA50C&lpage=none[/url]
I know the Sono can work w/ propane, but for some reason I don't know that I'd want that thing blowing on my beans.
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The sono has an air deflector that spins the beans.
Maybe Tex will shoot a photo of the air deflector in his... could easily make something similar to get the beans to stir.
I thought the Sono was all fluid...there is an agitator involved?
I've only seen the pre Sono, I think it was the Monster and it looked like an erratic bounce of sorts and I assumed it was just the airflow.
If you just used the heat from the 50K, took whatever lofting you got from it, and supplemented with some sort of agitation there is little doubt it would roast. 8)
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I know the Sono can work w/ propane, but for some reason I don't know that I'd want that thing blowing on my beans.
Why not?
Propane burns clean and plenty of roasters use either it or natural gas.
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The sono has an air deflector that spins the beans.
Maybe Tex will shoot a photo of the air deflector in his... could easily make something similar to get the beans to stir.
I thought the Sono was all fluid...there is an agitator involved?
I've only seen the pre Sono, I think it was the Monster and it looked like an erratic bounce of sorts and I assumed it was just the airflow.
If you just used the heat from the 50K, took whatever lofting you got from it, and supplemented with some sort of agitation there is little doubt it would roast. 8)
It is all fluid, but below the roast chamber there are fins that spin or direct the air mass in a circular direction so the beans stir. I think it helps from having hot spots and allows for a more even roast. This is especially important at the beginning of the roast when the beans have moisture and don't move very much. I suppose if you have enough air moving it wouldn't be needed.
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I know the Sono can work w/ propane, but for some reason I don't know that I'd want that thing blowing on my beans.
Why not?
Propane burns clean and plenty of roasters use either it or natural gas.
I dunno, I guess I just have memories of working in someone's garage years back when maybe these things left an odor in the air. One would have to see if the burners in these torpedo heaters are similar enough to the burners in a grill or commercial roaster. The other thing about them, if I recall correctly is that some of them use the burner to heat a ceramic element and then the blower blows heat off of that, so it might not be heat from the flame directly onto the beans either.
$100 for the heater, $10 for a stock pot, and you're off to the races.
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I know the Sono can work w/ propane, but for some reason I don't know that I'd want that thing blowing on my beans.
Why not?
Propane burns clean and plenty of roasters use either it or natural gas.
I dunno, I guess I just have memories of working in someone's garage years back when maybe these things left an odor in the air. One would have to see if the burners in these torpedo heaters are similar enough to the burners in a grill or commercial roaster. The other thing about them, if I recall correctly is that some of them use the burner to heat a ceramic element and then the blower blows heat off of that, so it might not be heat from the flame directly onto the beans either.
$100 for the heater, $10 for a stock pot, and you're off to the races.
Are you sure it wasn't a kerosene space heater?
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Milo,
I believe that metal blade thing under the roasting chamber on the sono would be called a rotor-stator blade. They are used in the aeronautical engineering of planes as well as the mechanical engineering of turbo chargers. Their function is to intensify airflow, it creates a pull on upstream air, and it also makes the downstream air movement more erratic so it does not blow in a straight stream.
It is funny you mentioned that, because I was talking to a buddy, who is an aeronautical engineer, earlier today about ways to intensify airflow and make a vortex. . . . his short answer was a strator blade.
Cheers,
Mike
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I dunno, I guess I just have memories of working in someone's garage years back when maybe these things left an odor in the air.
I wouldn't bet what you smelled was a heater.... :fart: :icon_tongue:
I'll bet the heater you remember is a Kerosine heater... those smell like a bus.
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Milo,
I believe that metal blade thing under the roasting chamber on the sono would be called a rotor-stator blade. They are used in the aeronautical engineering of planes as well as the mechanical engineering of turbo chargers. Their function is to intensify airflow, it creates a pull on upstream air, and it also makes the downstream air movement more erratic so it does not blow in a straight stream.
It is funny you mentioned that, because I was talking to a buddy, who is an aeronautical engineer, earlier today about ways to intensify airflow and make a vortex. . . . his short answer was a strator blade.
Cheers,
Mike
I roasted on a Sono for 4 years and I still think it's a great mechanical design. If they would spend a little coin on the controller for it and make it a true profile roaster they would have something... especially for the price.
Some day soon the Milowidget will make another appearance....
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The directional vanes in the Sonofresco are similar to what's in an air popper. They keep the beans swirling to prevent burning the beans on the bottom.
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Tex
Have you even roasted on that Sono? Looks new!
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Tex
Have you even roasted on that Sono? Looks new!
Why would I use your roaster? It's still sitting here waiting for you to pick up! :P
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Tex
Have you even roasted on that Sono? Looks new!
Why would I use your roaster? It's still sitting here waiting for you to pick up! :P
How 'bout you just ship it to me?
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Tex
Have you even roasted on that Sono? Looks new!
Why would I use your roaster? It's still sitting here waiting for you to pick up! :P
How 'bout you just ship it to me?
Nah, you'll have to drive down & pick it up.
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Tex
Have you even roasted on that Sono? Looks new!
Why would I use your roaster? It's still sitting here waiting for you to pick up! :P
How 'bout you just ship it to me?
Nah, you'll have to drive down & pick it up.
I have lots of frequent flier miles ;D I think I could check it as luggage for $15......
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Tex
Have you even roasted on that Sono? Looks new!
Why would I use your roaster? It's still sitting here waiting for you to pick up! :P
How 'bout you just ship it to me?
Nah, you'll have to drive down & pick it up.
I have lots of frequent flier miles ;D I think I could check it as luggage for $15......
That's possible, but do you think the Ambex will check through to Houston? Quid pro quo! ;D
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Hmm. . . That air deflector does not look like what he was describing when speaking of the rotor-stator blade. Sounds like they kind of do similar things though.
Thank you for the picture!
-Mike
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Here's a video of the Sonofresco in action.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6j1oKiCLb4[/youtube]
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You know I've been watching this thread and it occurs to me that the Sonofresco is just a bigger version of a hot air popper.
My Uber-tweaked out Poppery 1 can roast 1/2 # of green. It has an adjustable heater and an adjustable fan that was boosted to 130volts.
I did not build it, but I swapped out a number of 1400 watt Popcorn Pumpers and a couple of stock P1's a couple of years ago.
I have a Programmable Hottop, but I find it easier to roast with the P1, go figure!
I have the schematics and information in my home computer, I'll look for it when I get home tonight. Maybe you electrical engineers can figure a way to hybridize the 2. Using propane for the heat source and using an adjustable fan motor seems the way to go for 2 to 5 # batches.
John, do you remember Eddie K from the GCC, a few years back he built a really great version!
Gary
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John, do you remember Eddie K from the GCC, a few years back he built a really great version!
Gary
Yeah, but I don't know what he had under the hood.
It looked like 4 or 5 white cylinders of some sort but I never saw any detail of what exactly he did on that thing.
And I agree...the Sono looks like a big fat Poppery II. ;D
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Thank you for the video!
What are the air ducts inside the sono made of? I know galvanized steel is coated with zinc and chemically treated to prevent rust. . . so I will probably want to avoid galvanized.
I agree on the likeness between sonos and poppers. . . Sivitz too! I don't think ti would be incredibly difficult or expensive to make something comparable. It might not look as cool, but I can just shape sheet metal and powder coat is I get caught up on it's looks. I should probably get cracking before I talk about powder coating :) .
Thanks,
Mike
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I attached a pdf and a picture of the rough schematic, describing the Poppery 1 and Heavy Duty 1400watt Popcorn Pumper controller & booster.
All i know is that it has been working just great for the last 3 or 4 years...
Milo, wanna make these up??? ;)
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Oh hell!
How can I make it any bigger??? :o
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Thank you! Some of us are getting up there in years and large type is easier to read. :o
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There, now that size looks about right...
If you want the larger schematic, just PM me with your email address and I'll send it out.
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John,
I found the CFM rating for a torpedo forced air propane heater with 40,000 BTU, it has a 1/32 HP motor to push the air. This one is a Master BLP42 it's CFM rating is 175. Their 55,000 BTU version is rated at 275 CFM and has a 1/20 HP motor. Based on what the Sonofresco rep said the 1 pounder uses 100 CFM and the 2 pounder uses 'slightly more'. I think you are spot on with the 50,000 BTU unit you posted from Lowes! It should be able to do 2 pounds or slightly more in a similar fluid bed fashion. They have adjustable heat control knobs on the side like grill too, so as long as you had a digital thermostat at the top of the roasting chamber you should be set.
I think I might try this out, especially because if it doesn't work Lowe's will let you return it. Good call!
Anyone have any ideas on tubing?
-Mike
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I think I might try this out, especially because if it doesn't work Lowe's will let you return it. Good call!
You gotta follow up if you do....with pics.
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Oh. . . I will. Would a torpedo heater work if you stood it straight up? Obviously suspending it somehow so air could still flow through the bottom end.
-Mike
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I went out and purchased most of what I think I will need for this project yesterday. I would like to Update the stats on the 30,000 to 50,000 BTU Torpedo Blower from Lowe's. After checking out the stats in the instruction manual, it actually rings in at 300 CFM for airflow. . . it throws a lot of air around! Which means larger roasting batch to me :) . I did a quick check with my digital cooking thermometer to test air temp when the blower is on high. . . . it exceeded the thermometer's 500 degree F limit in about 30 seconds. So, we know the heat is there, we know the air flow is there, it will just be a matter of how controllable it is when everything is hooked up. I guess worse case scenario is I have to install a damper, that is if it blows at to high of a temp even on low.
Any ideas on where to get a glass cylinder for a roasting chamber? I was thinking maybe a glass candle hurricane. . . Any other ideas?
Thanks,
Mike
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My idea was not to go with glass but to get a chimney instead.
One of those charcoal starter chimney deals...
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Hmm. . . the charcoal starters? What you put the charcoal in to get it really hot before putting it in the grill? I looked at those and they have holes in the side to allow airflow into the chamber. If that is not what you are referring to please elaborate.
The temperature I registered on low was 390 degrees fahrenheit!
Cheers,
Mike
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Mike,
you are definitely on to something here...
I think you might want to mock it up in all steel stovepipe, try out different diameters.
Maybe try using a steel mesh diamond grate screen that is thick enough, yet sized appropriately so that you don't have too many smaller diameter beans falling through it.
Cut and tack weld the screen for the bottom, and add on a handle, like a giant sized coffee mug. For the top do the same, making a hinged lid, like a giant beer stein, only it's a screen door ;D
I'd steer away from a glass chamber, for the time being.
I :wav: your efforts!
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Any ideas on where to get a glass cylinder for a roasting chamber?
Would Pyrex tubing (http://www.quartz.com/pyrex.html) be a possible option for the ready-for-prime-time version? I haven't worked with it myself -- it was just what came to mind.
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Any ideas on where to get a glass cylinder for a roasting chamber?
Would Pyrex tubing ([url]http://www.quartz.com/pyrex.html[/url]) be a possible option for the ready-for-prime-time version? I haven't worked with it myself -- it was just what came to mind.
Yikes!
I think I'd order a new chamber from Sono and mash something up...
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I was searching for an 8" to 10" tall by 6" to 8" diameter Pyrex tube last night on the net, and nothing came up. It is all very small in diameter. I think that would be the best bet though, if the proper size can be found, because it is tempered. In the meantime, I got a glass vase and a glass cutter . . . could be interesting. I am going to put stove grade mesh on the bottom, securing it with an air duct clamp. I am going to try to find a small hinge at the hardware store to make a hinged mesh top for the tube glass roasting chamber.
The stovepipe is a great / easy idea, but I really want to see the beans blowing around :) . Sonofresco chamber is also a great idea, but I am willing to bet they want quite a bit of money for that bad boy. The vase, glass cutter, clamps, and mesh rang it right around $25. Now it might not work, but being creative is half of the fun!
I am torn between studying for a Physiology test I have on Monday and making this roaster!
Cheers,
Mike
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I'm thinking about a candle chimney... whether or not you'll find one w/ a 6" diameter is another thing. I have a few 4", and maybe a 5", so you may be able to find one.
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I found a 5" as well. I am tapering the Torpedo from 8" to 6", I put an 8" level walled guard around the 6" taper, and put mesh in it. It will allow me to roast in anything up to 6" in diameter. I am moving pretty fast on it, and might have it done sometime tomorrow. I think it is going to work surprisingly well!
I am about to go cut the 6" diameter vase down so that it is 8" tall. Wish me luck. . . .
Cheers,
Michael
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So much for cutting down that vase. . . . I splintered that in about 5 minutes. I will get a 5" diameter hurricane tomorrow. It will do for the time being anyway.
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Have you considered a notched section that could hold the roasting chamber at varying distances from the heater? That may be a simple way to adjust bean temps.
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How are you containing yourself?
If I had the heater in hand I think I'd have to run to Lowes and get something to do a test run with...like ANYTHING. ;D I'd have to roast immediately..be trying to loft greens...I would be going a zillion MPH. :-X
You have some pretty good patience working for you.
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I am kind of patient, a little more on the obsessive side truthfully. I am very meticulous, and hate going back to do things a second time. If I did not have a Physiology exam on Monday it would have already been done. After studying, I am going to run to Lowe's this evening to get the rest of what I need. Here is a picture to prove my point. Does this look familiar ;D ?
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I am kind of patient, a little more on the obsessive side truthfully. I am very meticulous, and hate going back to do things a second time. If I did not have a Physiology exam on Monday it would have already been done. After studying, I am going to run to Lowe's this evening to get the rest of what I need. Here is a picture to prove my point. Does this look familiar ;D ?
Looks like it belongs in a GE engine of a Boing Triple 7. ;)
Nice fabrication!
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Okay, so this is a little more involved then I originally thought. I am having issues with the function of the stator blade and am playing with how to mount the stator blade. First my mount was not sturdy enough, so I used thicker steel and it got so hot it burned through the mesh in the roasting chamber. I tried just using the air out of the torpedo without the stator blade and the beans get loft, but only about 20% of the move. . . .
So anyway, this is going to take a little more work. I will keep you posted.
-Mike
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Okay, so this is a little more involved then I originally thought. I am having issues with the function of the stator blade and am playing with how to mount the stator blade. First my mount was not sturdy enough, so I used thicker steel and it got so hot it burned through the mesh in the roasting chamber. I tried just using the air out of the torpedo without the stator blade and the beans get loft, but only about 20% of the move. . . .
So anyway, this is going to take a little more work. I will keep you posted.
-Mike
early in the sono roast the beans are not moving enough (it would appear) later in the roast a dry process and especially decaf.. are going nuts.... maybe your stator needs bigger vents if you are roasting more beans... the sonos show heat discoloration under the roast chamber but I dont know how glowy hot they get...
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Thank you for the info on the Sono roast process! That is encouraging.
Tex, can you take off that stator blade so I can see what is under it? There are not any schematics of one wandering around are there?
Thanks,
Mike
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Here's a copy of the 2 # CR2 Coffee Roaster manual:
http://www.sonofresco.com/index.php/faq/manuals.html (http://www.sonofresco.com/index.php/faq/manuals.html)
The PDF file was too large to to post here. I was considering buying the CR2, until I figured that it cost too much for me, at the moment ;)
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I just got clued in by Modelmaker that this thread was in play... sorry that I did not see it earlier!
I don't know if what I'm doing will apply directly or not... I did design and build my own FAB roaster. It's electric and can roast 2.5 to 14 lbs of beans in one batch.... with a slight modification we'll increase that to 20 lbs per batch.
For my roaster I have a 25kw 240V 3ph electric heater. ... it can raise the air temp from inlet to outlet by 880 degrees at 100scfm. I don't need to raise it that much, but I didn't want to run the heater at full bore all the time either.
That equates to roughly 85,000 BTU's in capability.
At 100 scfm the roaster will easily fluidize 3 lbs of beans and the heater will easily keep up with the heat requirements. But that heater is incredible overkill for 3 lbs of beans.
For your operation, if you only need 50 scfm to loft your 1 lb of beans (you'll have to measure that), I think you can get away with 29,000 BTU's to achieve a 500 degree temp output at the point where the air exits the heating element / chamber.
If you need more air velocity to loft your beans, you'll need more BTU's of course.
The trick is the blower... a typical 'fan' will probably not be able to generate enough pressure to loft the beans. A good 'squirrel cage' (Modelmaker, what say you here?) style fan can probably do it but a regenerative blower is more of a sure bet!
A blower that has a variable speed is also a good idea.... it takes a 20% velocity boost to get the beans lofted at the beginning of the roast than it does to keep them lofted once they're moving. Beans weigh more at the beginning of the roast than at the end... so if you can also degrade the speed of the blower by 20% over the span of the batch, you can get enough speed to loft the early part of the roast but slow it down so you're not shattering your beans on the top of the roaster... or shooting them into the ceiling at the end of the roast.
There is a whole lot more to this fluid air bed roasting than meets the eye.
My drum roaster took far less time and money ($50 and 3 days) to build than the FAB I'm in production with! But commercial production and home roasting are two different things!
There is much more that I could write on this topic but it's dinner time... gotta eat!
If there are specific questions or direction questions... I'll be happy to chime in. I'm not an engineer and I don't even play one on TV... so all I can tell you is what worked for me... and even then my information is somewhat circumspect.
Pete
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I just got clued in by Modelmaker that this thread was in play... sorry that I did not see it earlier!
I don't know if what I'm doing will apply directly or not
...
Man Pete, I'd love to hear more about your roaster! A friend who's in the metal bending business has offered to do the chassis if I'd do the rest. He wants to go into business with me doing artisan roasting here in the Houston area (top quality beans, even some COE).
The fabrication is fairly straight forward - now if I can get Larry to jump in and do a widget for the controls??
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Tex, check out these hot air blowers / air blowing systems. You can actually directly hook up several of their air blowers straight into their hot air blowers, so all of your air would be heated to temp. Their blowers go up to 540CFM and their hot air blowers go up to 1650 degrees celsius. Most of their equipment is meant for continuous use, which is obviously a prerequisite for commercial most roasters. Some of the heat blowers are PID'd as well. I have nothing to do with their company, I just found them as I was searching for heating ideas for my current project. http://www.malcom.com/products/hot_air_blowers.php
Is that directional air vane in the Sono stationary or does it spin? I have been trying to make a spinning blade, but I think it would redirect air pretty well even if it was stationary.
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[url]http://www.malcom.com/products/hot_air_blowers.php[/url]
One of those might be perfect for the sample FAB roaster I need to build. Sounds like it will plug right into electronics I already use which means I should be able to get really close to matching profiles from the sample roaster to my production roaster!
Thanks for that link!
Pete
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Is that directional air vane in the Sono stationary or does it spin?
The Sono is stationary
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The fabrication is fairly straight forward - now if I can get Larry to jump in and do a widget for the controls??
It's fall.... I'm back on the Milowidget project... hope to find the time to hone it over the next month or two.
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I have tried several different setups for the 'roaster' and regardless of tube taper, stator blade, etc. I hardly get any bean agitation. I am now going to try integrating a centrifugal blower into the mix. This think is getting a lot larger than I wanted it, but as long as I get a high enough rated blower that just might mean larger roast batches!
I am assuming when something is CMF rated it is done at the diameter of the objects opening? When looking at centrifugal blowers I am guessing I want a larger air outlet vs smaller?
Thanks,
Mike
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Maybe, inside your roasting tube, you need to have a horizontal drum with vanes, in which to roast the beans. ? ;)
<in my best Curly Howard voice, "Oh, a wise guy, eh?"
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I ended up fashioning a triangular Sivetzesc roast chamber. So, I am not sure I can put a horizontal drum with veins in there now :) .
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So, I stumbled upon a very nice, barely used centrifugal blower on craigslist. I should have it in my hands on Wednesday. Apparently good American made squirrel cage blowers are not cheap. . . The one I got sells for $1500 new. Anyway, I should be back in business and I will hopefully have it done and working sometime this weekend. I have a feeling I might have a few more CFMs than I know what to do with.
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How can you add a blower that isn't heated?
Won't you just murder the temp by doing that?
Also, have you tried reducing the batch size and finding a batch that will roast properly?
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The propane tube on it's own will simply not even move 1 cup of beans. The other issue is that even with the 'roasting chamber' 2 1/2 feet above the torpedo tube outlet the beans scorch immediately from the intensity of the heat, even within normal roasting temps. I will be introducing ambient temp air, but I will just jack up the temp of the propane tube. It could get to 400 degrees on low, 30,000 btu, so it should be able to do close to 700 degrees at 50,000 btu if needed. The additional number of feet it will have to travel will also get the heat source further from the roasting chamber, i.e. less intense. The nice thing about the squirrel cage blowers is that you can install a slide damper on the air intake to control air output. I could also install an air damper within the tube of the roaster if needed.
If I absolutely murder the temp, I will just have to buy a larger propane tube. The way it is currently setup just will not work. I have fiddled with stator blades, different distances between the roasting chamber and the propane tube, tapering the flow tubes from 7" to 4" and different configurations of the roasting chamber. Nothing worked.
Also, after researching these blowers, I would love to dissect a Sono. It has to be the a monster popcorn popper. The price of a blower, like the one I got, but that can withstand high heat air input, up to 700 degress, is between $2,000 and $3,000 dollars. They are made 100% out of steel. To me that means no commercial roasting setup would use that because of cost. We think roaster are expensive now, imagine someone key-stoning the price of a roaster utilizing that blower. So, they must have the heating source downstream within the same tube the blower outflow is hooked up to. With propane, I am not sure how I would set that up. On the other hand, with an electrical heating coil, I would install it inside the air tube, right in front of the blower outflow just as it looks in a hot air popcorn popper.
While looking at hundreds of blowers, I also think I caught on to Sivitz. His blowers look like massive square ventilation blowers that blow at 2,000-4,000 CFM. Again, they are only able to tolerate up to 200 degress F, so the heating source must be downstream, otherwise the heat would wreck the blower. On the other hand, his sample roaster utilized an $85 dollar heat adjustable hot air blower with a metal funnel on it, what does that thing sell for? I think $300.
The main thing is agitating, moving, suspending the beans in the roasting chamber. Once I have enough air to do that I can always find a way to add supplement the heat production. Without the ability to agitate the beans, I just have a smoldering pile.
I wish I had more money to work with. . . With all the research I have done on this project and a pile of cash I could make a pretty mean roaster!
Thanks,
Michael
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Does anyone know anything about gas power burners?
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I got my blower today. Holy cow is it huge! I had the brilliant idea of putting my makeshift roast chamber on top of the outflow to see if it would move the beans. . . . It did not just move the beans, but blew the lid straight off of the roast chamber and beans went all over my living room :) . Can anyone say damper?!?!
I am going to get the remaining air tubing I need in the next day or so. Then I can test the temp of the air with both the torpedo and the blower going. Wish me luck!
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Take some photos... I'm intrigued by your persistence
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Here's to luck, persistence, and some photos with detailed instructions. 8)
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Alright, so I had a chance to test the air temp where the propane tube and blower air tubes meet. . . . and it was very interesting! I went from 650F plus with only the torpedo on to 80 degrees in about 1 minute after turning on the blower. The blower seemed to be overkill from the start at 1050CFM, but I got a great deal on it and figured I could always dumb it down. So, I fashioned a pretty ruff looking slide damper, which actually works to cut the airflow very nicely. I will test her again tomorrow, hopefully with warmer results. I guess if cutting the down the blower output does not get me where I need to be temp wise I can always upgrade the propane tube, or add an infared propane heater to preheat the blower air intake, or maybe even try installing an exhaust tube so I can roast inside and avoid the cold outdoor air!
Wish me luck. This is getting a little more involved than I initially planned! I will post pictures if / when it works properly :) .
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Persistence.... you got it! ;)
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can you control the blower motor speed instead of the damper?? I wonder what the long term stress on the motor is when you choke it down like that??
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No, I cannot just adjust the speed of the blower. They are either on or off. The only way I could really do this is to buy one of these blowers new and instead of getting a direct drive version I would have to get a belt drive version. I spoke with a rep from the company and he said the your really only start taxing the motor if you close the damper slide more than 75-80%. The particular brand I found used is very expensive secondhand let alone new. The blower I got retails for $1500 in direct drive and much more if you want a belt drive. From looking at used ones on the web the belt drive must not be that popular, because I have not seen a used on yet. So in a perfect world I would actually have a high heat belt driven one. They make an all stainless steel blower, which can tolerate up to 700F intake temperatures. That would be perfect. . . You could just blow the torpedo tube right into the blower intake. . . I didn't even ask about the price of this version. If I find one used great, but otherwise it will be a while before I can blow that much on a blower. Also, if I am going to buy a blower for 2-3k why not just buy a Sivetz for 4k :) .
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sounds good to me... I don't think I respect the size of this beast you are building... I wonder if one of those infra red propane turkey (not)firers with that blower blowing through it would give you the heat?? probably not... the air needs too much time to heat up
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Haha. I tried the blower / propane tube with the damper and at last success! I could maintain 350-500F pretty easily. I think the catch is I am just going to have to find a place inside to use this until it gets warmer outside. So, exhaust hose here we come. I am making the roasting chamber later today, so we will see if I can make this thing work!
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Can you turn off the heat and just use the blower to see what you can loft in green?
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I can do that. I am still crafting a roasting chamber, so I will get back to you when I have better idea of possible batch size. It will be nice as well, as I can just cut the propane blower and open the slide damper to cool the beans after roasting.
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It will be nice as well, as I can just cut the propane blower and open the slide damper to cool the beans after roasting.
Very slick. 8)
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Alright. So I finally found something I think will work as a roasting chamber for the time being anyway. I love the shape, but wish it was made of thicker glass. I wonder if a local glass blower could make something. . . . I found it at Crate & Barrel of all places! That might convince some of you to go in next time the wife wants to stop :) .
I do not have a scale, so I took a bag of beans I knew was 5lbs and poured a little less than half into the roasting chamber. They blew around alright! From the sound of things they should blow even more as they get further into the roasting process. The shape of the chamber works really well too! The beans blow up in the middle and slide down the sides.
I am wondering if I should just upgrade the propane torpedo to a 75k-100k now versus later. . . That would allow me to achieve proper roasting temps, eliminate the slide damper and just let the blower go full force. Not that I really have a need to roast more than 2 lbs of coffee at a time, but it would allow me to roast larger batches too. It would add another 85 dollars or so to a project that is already around $500-600. . . a little more than I wanted to spend. . . Any thoughts?
Here is a picture for all of you. I am going to add exhaust tubing so I can roast inside too. I still have to rivet the ducts together and wrap it in aluminum tape as well. There was air slightly leaking from an area or two, so that should help.
Cheers,
Michael
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I am going to hook up exhaust tubing which will allow me to roast indoors. I am thinking about hooking up an exhaust duct booster to pull the smoke up into the exhaust tubing and push it out of the exhaust. Depending on the CFM of the duct booster would it also help suspend the beans in the roasting chamber? I am thinking it might. . . as there will be an air flow pull from above. . . Any thoughts?
Thanks!
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I use two duct boosters to exhaust smoke, one just above my roasting hood and the other one at the top of a 16' stack, which dumps into the attic. They do a so-so job of venting smoke, but doubt that even both of them together would loft any beans. Every couple months I have to clean the roastium of the blades or they suck even less. Or put it another way, they suck even more. ;)
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I have the roaster setup right next to my balconies siding glass door. I am just planning on opening the glass door and having a mount outside to hang the exhaust tubing from while roasting. The smoke might be traveling 5 feet total. Is there any reason to have a booster if it only needs to go 5 feet? With the the roasters blower on there is a considerable amount of air flow flying out of the roasting chamber already.
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I have the roaster setup right next to my balconies siding glass door. I am just planning on opening the glass door and having a mount outside to hang the exhaust tubing from while roasting. The smoke might be traveling 5 feet total. Is there any reason to have a booster if it only needs to go 5 feet? With the the roasters blower on there is a considerable amount of air flow flying out of the roasting chamber already.
I am thinking you will not need any booster fan.... I would avoid drops droops in the line if it is flexy duct but at the speeds you are pushing that may not be an issue..
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I call it the Squidmann. It kind of looks like the Cat and the Hat character from Dr. Suess!
So, I changed a few things around. I made a roasting chamber mount that allows me to clamp the roasting chamber into place. Also, in the top portion of the mount there is a built in bean screen, so beans can not fly out the exhaust, a chaff collecting chamber (which I made to resemble a Sono's), and the exhaust tube is mounted to the top as well. I riveted all of the tubing together so it is surprisingly stable. The top of the roasting chamber sits about 5 feet off of the ground, it should be fun to watch them progress through the roast! I am going to the hardware store in the AM to pick up flexible exhaust tubing, and that should be it. I again poured about 2.5 pounds into the chamber and the beans were flying about 5-6". Maybe it can handle 3lbs? I am not sure if they need to be flying that high. I will report back with final details.
Here is a picture of it in it's current state.
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Awesome, now we need video!
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I am getting a little frustrated with the 'homemade' fluid bed roaster. The flame in the propane torpedo tube keeps going out a few seconds after I flick the blower on. I am not sure if the flame in the propane tube is not getting enough oxygen, if the air flow from the blower is just moving all of the oxygen too fast, or maybe if I just need to get an adjustable propane adapter so I can push more propane through. . . .
The 2 work just fine with one another until I put the roasting chamber in. Filled or not the flame in the propane tube blows out. . .
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I am getting a little frustrated with the 'homemade' fluid bed roaster. The flame in the propane torpedo tube keeps going out a few seconds after I flick the blower on. I am not sure if the flame in the propane tube is not getting enough oxygen, if the air flow from the blower is just moving all of the oxygen too fast, or maybe if I just need to get an adjustable propane adapter so I can push more propane through. . . .
The 2 work just fine with one another until I put the roasting chamber in. Filled or not the flame in the propane tube blows out. . .
sounds like the roast chamber (or more likely the chaff collector) is chocking the blower and the blower is then back pressuring to the burner
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Too much airflow? Maybe you could install a rheostat or dimmer switch on the blower motor to slow it down?
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Hmm. . . I am not sure how to do that. The blower and motor are quite large. The manufacturer said the only way to legitimately regulate the speed of the blower is through a belt drive. I am not mechanically inclined enough to think otherwise :) .
There is another issue now, I think I might just scrap the propane torpedo idea and try something else. There are slits in the outer shell of the propane tube, and with the new setup probably 75% of the blowers air is escaping through them.
I think I might purchase a high pressure cast iron propane burner, or a propane jet burner, and try to use that as the heat source. They burn up to 185,000 BTU and you can regulate the power with a propane adjustment adaptor. Something like this maybe?
http://www.turkey-fryers.com/SP-1_propane_patio_stove.htm
Any other ideas? Would a heat coil be easier?
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Any other ideas?
Sorry... (http://www.sonofresco.com/) could not resist >:D
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Any cheaper ideas ;D ?
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In my imagination version the roast chamber would have been almost directly on the heater. Maybe a small spacer if the heat is too intense right at the exit.
If you tried that would it loft any amount of beans, even 1/2#?
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No. I tried that. The problem with the propane tube is there is really only airflow right at the end of the tube itself, and it is very minimal. The actual flames from the propane tube almost go to the end of the tube when it is on high, so you just charr the beans to bits in seconds. I tried with the chamber directly on the tube, 1' above it and 2' above it. No dice, just charred beans. The air from the propane tube alone might have moved 1/6 of a pound.
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Do they make in-line fans rated for 500 degree heat?
A booster fan on the hot side would work wouldn't it?
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Like a duct booster fan? The highest I saw any rated to were 210F. They were around $300 and only blew at about 200CFM. I have that monster of a blower blower now, I think it is rated at 1050CFM and that is at 8". I just need a way to heat all of that air now. I am thinking a high pressure cast iron propane ring burner might work. You can attach an adjustable psi adapter to make them crank out about 160-180,000btu, and they only cost about $12. I think I could find a way to mount it just above the blower outlet inside the duct tubing. I am just worried about the burner not having a pilot when I would be pushing large amount of propane though it.
Any idea on how to hook up something like an electronic axial coil heating element? I could mount one of those right at the output on the blower and it would make it into a huge blow dryer!