Green Coffee Buying Club
Coffee Discussion boards => Hardware & Equipment => Topic started by: Tex on May 12, 2010, 05:01:03 PM
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What makes a good espresso machine? I always suggest newbie's and expert alike start off by reading Dr. Ernesto Illy's article (http://nanotech.sc.mahidol.ac.th/i-sense/doc/Complexity_of_Coffee.pdf) on what it takes to make quality espresso. In it he specifies two variables that must be controlled in an espresso machine; brew temperature and brew pressure. Based on Illy's statements, I like to point out that any espresso machine which allows you to tune the temperature and pressure variables, is a machine capable of making fine espresso. Once those two variable have been reduced to constants,
it's then a simple matter to master the techniques involved in the production of espresso it's then up to the individual to master the techniques involved in making espresso to the best of their abilities and as far as their interest takes them.
What are the differences between the types of espresso machines? First, I'll eliminate some coffee makers that are commonly referred to as 'espresso makers' but in actuality aren't capable of producing espresso. In this category I include all moka/steam pots, the Aerobi Aeropress, and any other machine that can't produce and maintain a brewing pressure of at least 9 bar.
That leaves a lot of consumer, prosumer, and commercial espresso machines to discuss. Consumer machines are fairly inexpensive, with small boilers usually made of lightweight material, and use parts that wouldn't stand up to the day-in/day-out constant beating a commercial machine must be made to withstand. A prosumer machine is more robustly built, with larger boilers and other parts, but still not as solidly built as commercial machines. Commercial machines are built to take a beating, with heavy duty frames, large boilers; overall they're built like tanks and last for decades if taken care of.
Within the three general categories of espresso machines (consumer, prosumer, commercial) are four types of machine control: manual, semi-auto, automatic, and super-auto. Manual machines are lever operated, and there are two subsets of lever machines; all-manual and spring-activated. Semi-auto machines have on/off switches to control the flow of water. Automatic machines use a flow control valve and electronics to control how much water each shot is given. The super-auto category is made up of machines with built in grinders and with electronic control of every aspect of the espresso making process.
Then there's the matter of boiler configuration: Single boiler/dual use (SBDU), heat exchanger (HX), and double boiler (DB). The SBDU is most often used in low to mid-range consumer machines. The SBDU uses the same boiler to brew the shot and heat the water to make steam for micro-frothing. To switch from brewing to steaming a switch is flipped that increases the boiler temperature from ~200°F to ~300°F. Because of the difference in temperature for the two functions, it's not possible to brew and steam at the same time.
The HX machine uses a heat exchanger built into the boiler to provide brew water at the proper temperatures. The boiler temperature is maintained at ~256°F, and fresh water pumped through the HX is flash heated to the correct brewing temperature. Because of this configuration it's possible to pull a shot and steam milk at the same time. This design is used in some prosumer machines and in the majority of commercial machines. (http://home.earthlink.net/~abcdef012345/what%20is%20a%20heat%20exchanger%2001.jpg)
The DB machines have two boilers; one for brewing and another for steaming. Each boiler is maintained at the ideal temperature for each function, resulting in a machine that's both simple to use and is capable of superb temperature stability. This design is used in high-end prosumer and commercial machines.
:argue:
:violent1:
:occasion14:
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Once those two variable have been reduced to constants, it's then a simple matter to master the techniques involved in the production of espresso.
First point of disagreement.
(Like you could not have guessed I'd start here) ;)
While controlling temp and pressure are essential to good espresso, nailing them down does not equate to a simple path to mastering espresso.
I'd say it gets you a stable platform to work from that with a little effort on the user end should offer something between slightly above disgusting espresso to potentially pretty good shots......depending.
Mastery is not simple but something acceptable to the user might very well be.
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We need an animated icon of someone arguing the balls off a brass billy goat! Or would that be redundant since we have whatever John is using? ;D ;D
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Or would that be redundant since we have whatever John is using? ;D ;D
I just like accuracy is all. :angel:
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Or would that be redundant since we have whatever John is using? ;D ;D
I just like accuracy is all. :angel:
I take your point! :-X
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]it's then up to the individual to master the techniques involved in making espresso to the best of their abilities and as far as their interest takes them.
Way better. ;)
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Now for the blood letting.
Consumer machines: There are two that stand out from the rest; Rancilio Silvia and Gaggia Classic. Both are SBDU machines with 3-way valves and adjustable OPVs. The Silvia has the larger brass boiler, but has a much less powerful heating element. The Classic has a small aluminum boiler, but has the most powerful heating element in it's class.
In stock form and with the group pressure properly adjusted, each machine can produce a very good shot of espresso. Both machine use bimetallic thermostats for brew and steam temperature control and these tstats have huge dead bands. This tends to reduce the temp stability of both machines to marginal functionality. Both machines can be "temp surfed" to increase the temp stability, but to achieve proper temp stability, both machines need a PID mod to replace the brew tstat with electronic control.
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I just had a vision of Shaun patiently waiting to pounce on this thread at precisely the right moment.... :P
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So, we're just gonna chew the fat on "La Macchina" and disregard the the other 3 M's?Whether or not they are even relevant?
4 M's (http://www.coffeeresearch.org/espresso/definitions.htm)
Well, just one of the M's should be enough for a bloody fine mess!
(http://www.brewed-coffee.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/07/Linea_doubleespresso.jpg)
Now, if reliable electricity is a problem, with the gas kit option here, you can have a lever operated device, a hand crank grinder and be good to go in the dead of winter or anytime bad weather cuts off the power. I like options!
http://www.espressobrewer.com/prodotti/gloria_lever_al1.phtml (http://www.espressobrewer.com/prodotti/gloria_lever_al1.phtml)
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[url]http://www.espressobrewer.com/prodotti/gloria_lever_al1.phtml[/url] ([url]http://www.espressobrewer.com/prodotti/gloria_lever_al1.phtml[/url])
Fleeping sweet!
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I see some Vibiemme double boilers, and the Brewtus III have a PID. How crucial is a PID, other than having the ability to change the brew temps?
What the pros/cons of vibe pumps or rotary pumps?
BTW Tex, smooth move starting the thread before I could get it in HT. ;)
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Now for the blood letting.
Consumer machines: There are two that stand out from the rest; Rancilio Silvia and Gaggia Classic. Both are SBDU machines with 3-way valves and adjustable OPVs. The Silvia has the larger brass boiler, but has a much less powerful heating element. The Classic has a small aluminum boiler, but has the most powerful heating element in it's class.
In stock form and with the group pressure properly adjusted, each machine can produce a very good shot of espresso. Both machine use bimetallic thermostats for brew and steam temperature control and these tstats have huge dead bands. This tends to reduce the temp stability of both machines to marginal functionality. Both machines can be "temp surfed" to increase the temp stability, but to achieve proper temp stability, both machines need a PID mod to replace the brew tstat with electronic control.
I neglected to include one of my favorite consumer machines: La Pavoni Europiccola/Professional. In stock form, an experienced user can pull fantastic shots. This is the consummate users machine - everything must be finessed to make it work and when you get it just so, magic happens!
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I see some Vibiemme double boilers, and the Brewtus III have a PID. How crucial is a PID, other than having the ability to change the brew temps?
What the pros/cons of vibe pumps or rotary pumps?
Other than the ability to change temps I don't guess it's all that critical in an E-61 level machine. You could keep an eye on temps in other ways.
I personally would not choose the more expensive rotary/plumbed in if it is an option choice like the BIII you are considering. ;D If it cost the exact same I would only do it with the bottle flo-pump option because of the ability to work with the water directly instead of using filtration.
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I neglected to include one of my favorite consumer machines: La Pavoni Europiccola/Professional. In stock form, an experienced user can pull fantastic shots. This is the consummate users machine - everything must be finessed to make it work and when you get it just so, magic happens!
I have a customer who found an Olympia Cremina for like $25 at a GoodWill store... I NEVER find deals like that. I've offered him a poo pile of cash and espresso beans for 6 months and he won't part with that darn machine.
I don't know how those two machine stack up head to head, but I've used both and the Cremina is nice in that it can actually steam milk really well. I don't recall if the La Pavoni steams as well.
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I see some Vibiemme double boilers, and the Brewtus III have a PID. How crucial is a PID, other than having the ability to change the brew temps?
What the pros/cons of vibe pumps or rotary pumps?
BTW Tex, smooth move starting the thread before I could get it in HT. ;)
I'll bet that before I get back from vacation this thread will be on HT!
Oscillating/vibe pumps
Pro: Small, cheap, reliable
Con: Noisy, susceptible to scale build up, vibrations, heat sensitive
Rotary pumps
Pro: Reliable, built-in OPV, withstands heat pretty well
Con: expensive, requires separate motor, BIG
A PID has several things to offer. In consumer & prosumer machines they replace the über -problematic bimetallic mechanical thermostats, permitting a very exact starting point for pulling shots.
For commercial machines they replace the single most likely to fail part - the pressurestat. Plus they have the added benefit of making machines very quiet after the pstat is replaced (pstats mechanical relays, 3 in a Sirai, are VERY noisy as they open & close).
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I neglected to include one of my favorite consumer machines: La Pavoni Europiccola/Professional. In stock form, an experienced user can pull fantastic shots. This is the consummate users machine - everything must be finessed to make it work and when you get it just so, magic happens!
I have a customer who found an Olympia Cremina for like $25 at a GoodWill store... I NEVER find deals like that. I've offered him a poo pile of cash and espresso beans for 6 months and he won't part with that darn machine.
I don't know how those two machine stack up head to head, but I've used both and the Cremina is nice in that it can actually steam milk really well. I don't recall if the La Pavoni steams as well.
The peacock is a steaming monster, especially the 16 cup Professional.
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I see some Vibiemme double boilers, and the Brewtus III have a PID. How crucial is a PID, other than having the ability to change the brew temps?
What the pros/cons of vibe pumps or rotary pumps?
Other than the ability to change temps I don't guess it's all that critical in an E-61 level machine. You could keep an eye on temps in other ways.
I personally would not choose the more expensive rotary/plumbed in if it is an option choice like the BIII you are considering. ;D If it cost the exact same I would only do it with the bottle flo-pump option because of the ability to work with the water directly instead of using filtration.
I just now saw you answered my same question in the other thread. Thanks.
Interesting thought on plumbing in vs. sucking out of a bottle. Plumbing a unit wouldn't present much hassle, I'd just get some John XYZ ;D fittings.
The Vibiemme Domo Jr. has two boilers and two PID's. I can't imagine why you'd want to have steam PID'd.
Beside the money (and we all know when it comes to coffee toys, where there's a will there's a way) my true obstacle is the layout of my kitchen. I have approx. 15.5" under my cabinets, and no real way to use an espresso cart. I still have the reticence in the back of my mind that I will still drink mainly brewed coffee and the machine will gather dust, but I can convince myself that I need and espresso machine and rationalize my way into buying one. The space in the kitchen thing will be tough to solve w/o remodeling tho'. The reckless part of me says if I buy something, then I'll have to figure out where to put it. :) Rocket Espresso makes a decent machine that would fit under my cabinets, but even then it would have to be slid forward to access the reservoir and would render the cup warming tray unusable.
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Plumbing a unit wouldn't present much hassle, I'd just get some John XYZ ;D fittings.
;D
It would be a snap to plumb in, that isn't the issue.
Do you need a refresher in the insanely long water faq? ;)
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I see some Vibiemme double boilers, and the Brewtus III have a PID. How crucial is a PID, other than having the ability to change the brew temps?
What the pros/cons of vibe pumps or rotary pumps?
Other than the ability to change temps I don't guess it's all that critical in an E-61 level machine. You could keep an eye on temps in other ways.
I personally would not choose the more expensive rotary/plumbed in if it is an option choice like the BIII you are considering. ;D If it cost the exact same I would only do it with the bottle flo-pump option because of the ability to work with the water directly instead of using filtration.
I just now saw you answered my same question in the other thread. Thanks.
Interesting thought on plumbing in vs. sucking out of a bottle. Plumbing a unit wouldn't present much hassle, I'd just get some John XYZ ;D fittings.
The Vibiemme Domo Jr. has two boilers and two PID's. I can't imagine why you'd want to have steam PID'd.
Beside the money (and we all know when it comes to coffee toys, where there's a will there's a way) my true obstacle is the layout of my kitchen. I have approx. 15.5" under my cabinets, and no real way to use an espresso cart. I still have the reticence in the back of my mind that I will still drink mainly brewed coffee and the machine will gather dust, but I can convince myself that I need and espresso machine and rationalize my way into buying one. The space in the kitchen thing will be tough to solve w/o remodeling tho'. The reckless part of me says if I buy something, then I'll have to figure out where to put it. :) Rocket Espresso makes a decent machine that would fit under my cabinets, but even then it would have to be slid forward to access the reservoir and would render the cup warming tray unusable.
Plumbing in vs reservoir?
Once you use a plumbed in machine you'll wonder how you ever got along without it. Never having to check the reservoir or bottle for water level (running a pump dry is the kiss of death!). Then there's never having to pull the drip tray out and trying to make it to the sink without spilling.
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I've wanted a lever machine for a while now. I wish John would hurry up and get one so I would have something to play with when I'm in Colorado in the future. ;-)
I just measured my BII for you Peter and it's just under 15 inches tall, yes that would mean you wouldn't be able to take advantage of keeping the cups warm on top of the machine... but that's no big deal. You could take them cold out of a cupboard and pull 2oz of hot water from the grouphead straight into the cup to bring the E-61 head to a nice stable temp, 2mins later pull another 2oz into the cup and it will be toasty hot ready for espresso and the E61 is ready to go - that protocol is exactly what I do - so no need to stack your cups on top of the machine.
When I'm not using the BII I slide it back under the cupboard.
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I've wanted a lever machine for a while now. I wish John would hurry up and get one so I would have something to play with when I'm in Colorado in the future. ;-)
I spent some time looking at them yesterday and am very nervous about what decision I'm going to make.
If I do it my espresso course will be set and altered for a few years at least and I'm just not sure.... :-X
I've been putting off a new machine for a very long time now and part of me really wants to get a nice E-61 workhorse because I've never had a fine machine and another part of me wants to plunge off into previously uncharted waters and spend some time in lever land.
I sort of have to make this purchase count because it's going to generate and equal expenditure on the other end of the house and a second machine is going to be unlikely very soon....I gotta make the right move here. :-\
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First off, how would a lever machine differ from your BII, since that is activated by a lever?
Your machine must have the legs off. ? The specs online for the BIII say 16.5" H.
The Alex Duetto II by Izzo at Chris' has me thinking. Once you get close to 2G's, who really cares any more? Now, if I move the microwave over there, and then rearrange this over here...
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peter, what are your requirements? SBDU, HX, DB, lever? Do you want an E61 group w/lever. or is a solenoid model OK. Does it have to be a group with thermal siphoning to keep it hot.
Do you want a machine that can make kick ass espresso while looking like a million dollars? Or would a solid used commercial espresso fit the bill?
Some of us like buying old machines and then restoring them to better than new condition. We save a lot over buying new machines, and when we're finished we know more about our machines than even the technicians do.
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I've wanted a lever machine for a while now. I wish John would hurry up and get one so I would have something to play with when I'm in Colorado in the future. ;-)
I spent some time looking at them yesterday and am very nervous about what decision I'm going to make.
If I do it my espresso course will be set and altered for a few years at least and I'm just not sure.... :-X
I've been putting off a new machine for a very long time now and part of me really wants to get a nice E-61 workhorse because I've never had a fine machine and another part of me wants to plunge off into previously uncharted waters and spend some time in lever land.
I sort of have to make this purchase count because it's going to generate and equal expenditure on the other end of the house and a second machine is going to be unlikely very soon....I gotta make the right move here. :-\
Exactly.
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First off, how would a lever machine differ from your BII, since that is activated by a lever?
Your machine must have the legs off. ? The specs online for the BIII say 16.5" H.
The Alex Duetto II by Izzo at Chris' has me thinking. Once you get close to 2G's, who really cares any more? Now, if I move the microwave over there, and then rearrange this over here...
I've been thinking about a lever for a while because I like the idea behind the challenge of pulling great espresso on one. I don't think it would be as easy as pulling shots on the BII and it's that part which has me interested. There's also the likelihood that it pulls espresso shots differently and I'm interested in exploring the same bean under two machines, seeing what the bean has to offer via two different devices. I've heard a lot of Brewtus owners say the really good shots coming off their machine become so commonplace that it's almost ho-hum good. I think the challenges of a lever, in so much that it might not be as predictable as my BII, would keep me on my toes. I like a good challenge.
You are right, I took the legs off and then stuck some of those super slippy plastic discs underneath so the machine can slide back and forth under the cabinetry reeeeeeaaaalllly easily. Works like a charm.
I agree, at a certain price point I think you can do quite well for yourself in the espresso universe and it will meet your performance needs for a long, long time. Now, about that GB-5... ;-)
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If it cost the exact same I would only do it with the bottle flo-pump option because of the ability to work with the water directly instead of using filtration.
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~~~that's my plan whenever I get around to putting the Rimini back together...I already have the flo jet and will using the 15 gal/day RO that feeds into a canister with calcium/calcite cartridge..like I'm using now for my pour over hx espresso machine...I really like the taste of this water (from my 200' deep well) and at 50 PPM hardness
Jake
Reddick Fla.
If he's got golf clubs in his truck or a camper in his driveway, I don't hire him.
--Lou Holtz, football coach
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Here's a topic for consideration: If all of the best commercial espresso makers have settled on 58mm as the ideal portafilter size, why are some prosumer machines produced with 53mm portafilters? And why are most consumer lever machines made with 49mm & 51mm portafilters? Is there a reason for 58mm portafilters, or is this another instance of industrial inertia?
Here's what I've found. If you dial in an espresso grinder for a commercial machine tuned to exactly 9 bar group pressure, you'll have to redial it in for a 53mm machine tuned to 9 bar. The same size coffee grounds that work so well for any of my three 58mm equipped machines won't work on a friends VII 53mm portafilter equipped machine. There's something about the puck mass in a smaller/deeper portafilter that doesn't directly translate to a larger portafilter.
This confuses me; why exactly 14 grams of coffee, ground to the same particle size, takes differing times to produce the same volume of coffee, depending on portafilter diameter. And if the extraction period changes (and it does), how does that affect the taste of the coffee (again it does)? Using exactly the same grind settings, and the same amount of coffee (14 grams), and the same technique (WDT & light tamp), the coffee from the 53mm portafilter tasted over extracted and harsh. We had to adjust and readjust the grinder to hit a sweet spot that produced good coffee with the VII. Whereas with my HX machine, a two or three click change in grind settings is insignificant, for the VII there was only a two click difference between good and bad coffee.
Why should the portafilter diameter affect the shot quality so much?
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Why should the portafilter diameter affect the shot quality so much?
I'm no physicist but how else could it be?
If you exaggerate it and spread the 14G to a thin layer you can imagine that extraction has to taste different from one where the 14G is stacked up in a long skinny column no?
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Why should the portafilter diameter affect the shot quality so much?
I'm no physicist but how else could it be?
If you exaggerate it and spread the 14G to a thin layer you can imagine that extraction has to taste different from one where the 14G is stacked up in a long skinny column no?
No doubt John, you're correct; as playing with a VII next to my 58mm machines proved to my satisfaction. But that begs the question, what is the ideal portafilter size? Remember, we're dealing with machines that are tuned to exactly the same 9 bar group pressure (Even to using the same gauge to dial them all in).
I'm just curious why LM, Synesso, Rancilio, Gaggia, Nuova Simonelli, et al, have all opted for the 58mm portafilter size? Is there a reason or are they all victims of group think?
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I'm just curious why LM, Synesso, Rancilio, Gaggia, Nuova Simonelli, et al, have all opted for the 58mm portafilter size? Is there a reason or are they all victims of group think?
I don't really know...but I think it's a good size. ;D
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Why should the portafilter diameter affect the shot quality so much?
I'm no physicist but how else could it be?
If you exaggerate it and spread the 14G to a thin layer you can imagine that extraction has to taste different from one where the 14G is stacked up in a long skinny column no?
I have the answer you have all been looking for. After owning a ton of machines, many levers both home and commercial, prosumer semi-autos and commercial semi autos, I have done a lot of research into different companies takes on PF size.
Both a 58mm double commercial PF basket and an Elektra MCaL or Olympia Cremina (spring loaded vs manual lever. . . that calls for a completely different thread of it's own) 49mm double PF hold right around 18g of coffee, but there is one huge difference. . . a 58mm commercial machine will pull a 1.5oz shot while my Elektra would only pull a mere .75-1oz shot with a pull and a half of the lever (aka fellini maneuver). So why the difference in diameter? The narrower baskets give the resultant shot so many more layers of flavor! It is night and day with the exact same coffee. I happen to have had an Isomac Tea II at the same time as the Elektra and they both made great shots, the Elektra's just had a lot more character (The same can be said for the Cremina's shots). This was consistent with almost any coffee I put through both machines.
The Elektra did have a few downfalls of it's own and they are as follows: they can only manage about 3 double shots in a row and they are so hot you need to shut them off, they can only hold enough water for about 5 doubles total with flushing in between, small shot volume, and although their finish is so beautiful (I had a brass and copper one) they were impossible to keep sparkly clean and regardless of what rag you used to clean it you would get micro-scratches!
For the above reasons I got into commercial lever espresso machines. They have huge boilers that can accommodate even the largest group, you can plumb them in or run them from a 5 gallon bottle, they have steam for days, you can leave it on all day without a problem, and if you get a classic one they look sooooo cool! One problem with the majority of commercial lever machines is that the portafilter size bounces back up 58mm. That is why so many lever fanatics drool at the site of new and old La San Marco Lever espresso machines. To this day they maintain the original 55mm portafilter on their commercial levers. This makes them the best of both worlds. You have the convenience of a commercial lever machine with the beautiful layered flavor profile of a smaller home model.
Another thing that really sets levers apart, both home and commercial models, is the overall simplicity and lack of electronic parts. The only electronic parts they have are pressurestats and heating elements (and a brain and PID if you so choose). To me fewer electronic parts means fewer problems, and this has been my exact experience. I have never had anything break on any of the levers I have owned whether I purchased them new or purchased them used and rebuilt / restored them. Obviously you will have to descale them and replace their o-rings from time to time, but that goes for any espresso machine.
No matter how long it takes me I will convert some of you :) ! It sounds like a few of you may be converting yourselves. . . . Lever machines definitely have a steep learning curve. You will not set one up and pull an amazing shot straight away, but that makes pulling a great shot so much more exciting. Once you get use to them and their borderline finicky tendencies you are rewarded with outstanding espresso.
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No matter how long it take I will convert some of you :)
I have my eye on the Ponte V...
What do you think of that machine?
I'm thinking of going with the Export because I don't think I'll need the second group.
I've been wanting a lever for a while and will be getting one pretty soon. A little looking over at HB has led me to think this might be the machine for me.
Edit - I think I have some notes from you on my last pass towards lever-ville but I moved and it got put on the back burner... It's coming back to the front burner. I'll go look for those notes..
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No matter how long it take I will convert some of you :)
I have my eye on the Ponte V...
What do you think of that machine?
I'm thinking of going with the Export because I don't think I'll need the second group.
I've been wanting a lever for a while and will be getting one pretty soon. A little looking over at HB has led me to think this might be the machine for me.
I think you would love it! I just noticed that they are actually on sale at 1st-line.com right now for $695 (they could be cheaper elsewhere that is just one of the first links that shot up when I searched). Ponte Vecchio took over a company named SAMA a few years ago. After taking over they decided to keep making the Export. If you want a lot of information on it do a search on the Sama Export. OrphanEspresso has machine tours for the SAMA. You will read great things about them, people love them. A few of the people over at Home-Barista actually bring them and a hand grinder on business trips to setup in their hotel rooms, because they are pretty compact as far as espresso machines go.
Some of the above info about my Elektra will apply to the Ponte Vecchio Export. You will not be able to pull shots for a room full of people. So if ability to make shot after shot is really important this may not be the machine for you. The PF is 45mm, which is small by even home lever standards. Almost all spring lever machines have a spring tension that will produce 9 bars of pressure through the espresso puck. With that being said, based on the PF size it should produce shots very comparable to the Elektra MCaL, both in quality and small volume.
Being a modern version of the exact same machine, the Ponte Vecchio should look like a mirror image of the SAMA internally. Here is the OrphanEspresso video on the SAMA: Sama Export Espresso Machine Tour (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAgDdPaQc7A#) . The mix of the lever espresso machines simplicity and ability to make such great shots amazes me!
Here is another video of someone pulling a shot with one. Not the best example of how to pull a great shot on a lever, but it gives you a general idea of what is looks like in action. One thing you will notice is you start and end the pre-infusion phase, which is another beautiful feature of lever machines. I would advise against the multiple pumps at the end of the pre-infusion phase though. . . . Ponte Vecchio Export Test Shot (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7OKuNL4yX0#)
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These espresso machine threads have been great. While I am not in the market, having a greater awareness and knowledge base of the espresso end of this habit is critical is well. You gents know you stuff. Thanks.
B|Java
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One thing you will notice is you start and end the pre-infusion phase, which is another beautiful feature of lever machines. I would advise against the multiple pumps at the end of the pre-infusion phase though. . . . t[/url]
Great!
Tell me what is happening in this vid.
At approx 28 seconds he pulls the lever down and holds it. Does this start the preinfusion and if you simply hold the lever down here you can extend pre time?
Then at approx 31 seconds he looks to do 2-3 pumps...what is that about?
My imagination is that I'd pull the lever down..hold for preinfusion, let it ride half way up and GENTLY pull back down and let go at that point allowing the spring to do it's thing.
But I've never touched a lever machine and this is all total WAG'ing at this point.
So, what is he doing with those multiple pulls around 31 seconds and how far off am I from assuming what the process should be like?
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One thing you will notice is you start and end the pre-infusion phase, which is another beautiful feature of lever machines. I would advise against the multiple pumps at the end of the pre-infusion phase though. . . . t[/url]
Great!
Tell me what is happening in this vid.
At approx 28 seconds he pulls the lever down and holds it. Does this start the preinfusion and if you simply hold the lever down here you can extend pre time?
Then at approx 31 seconds he looks to do 2-3 pumps...what is that about?
My imagination is that I'd pull the lever down..hold for preinfusion, let it ride half way up and GENTLY pull back down and let go at that point allowing the spring to do it's thing.
But I've never touched a lever machine and this is all total WAG'ing at this point.
So, what is he doing with those multiple pulls around 31 seconds and how far off am I from assuming what the process should be like?
Bingo John! Your imaginative technique is more along the lines of the technique I used with the Elektra and Cremina. What you described is generally termed the Fellini maneuver. My typical protocol after locking in the PF full of coffee would be to pre=infuse by pulling down the lever for 10 seconds or until I see the first drip of coffee, if you want to do the Fellini maneuver you would then let the lever rise 1/2 way, pull it all the way down again slowly and smoothly and then watch and wait. The video just showed you the machine in action. . . I would personally would not use the same technique as the individual who made the video. To me it looked like he either ground too finely or tamped to hard, because there is no reason you should have to pull the lever down 3 times post pre-infusion to get the water through the puck.
A catch with levers is you cannot bail and restart midway throughout the course of your shot. The only way for a lever espresso machine to relieve pressure is to get all the water out of it's piston and through the PF. They do not have pressure release mechanisms. Another thing you should know about levers is that for this exact reason, you need to wait about 25-30 seconds between pulling shots. Otherwise you will 'portafilter sneeze' and will have coffee all over the place.
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If a 49mm filter with the same capacity as the current 58mm models produced better coffee, as Warrior says, why aren't the heavy hitters in the commercial machine market rushing to convert? The first maker to honestly say that they've converted to smaller portafilters for the sake of better coffee would have a huge advantage over the competition.
This would be so easy to demonstrate at trade shows, and the truth would be out there for all to see! I can just see it, company Zee brings out their 49mm portafilter machine and the buzz starts; "Have you been over to Zee's display yet? Their new machine uses 49mm portafilters and it makes the best coffee you've ever had!" All of a sudden the other machine makers would have power failures at their displays and couldn't demo their products. ;D
The simple answer is the 58mm must be the best size or it wouldn't be so widely used.
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If a 49mm filter with the same capacity as the current 58mm models produced better coffee, as Warrior says, why aren't the heavy hitters in the commercial machine market rushing to convert? The first maker to honestly say that they've converted to smaller portafilters for the sake of better coffee would have a huge advantage over the competition.
This would be so easy to demonstrate at trade shows, and the truth would be out there for all to see! I can just see it, company Zee brings out their 49mm portafilter machine and the buzz starts; "Have you been over to Zee's display yet? Their new machine uses 49mm portafilters and it makes the best coffee you've ever had!" All of a sudden the other machine makers would have power failures at their displays and couldn't demo their products. ;D
The simple answer is the 58mm must be the best size or it wouldn't be so widely used.
+1
It's only common sense ... bigger portafilter ... more coffee ... more flavor.
:)
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If a 49mm filter with the same capacity as the current 58mm models produced better coffee, as Warrior says, why aren't the heavy hitters in the commercial machine market rushing to convert? The first maker to honestly say that they've converted to smaller portafilters for the sake of better coffee would have a huge advantage over the competition.
This would be so easy to demonstrate at trade shows, and the truth would be out there for all to see! I can just see it, company Zee brings out their 49mm portafilter machine and the buzz starts; "Have you been over to Zee's display yet? Their new machine uses 49mm portafilters and it makes the best coffee you've ever had!" All of a sudden the other machine makers would have power failures at their displays and couldn't demo their products. ;D
The simple answer is the 58mm must be the best size or it wouldn't be so widely used.
+1
It's only common sense ... bigger portafilter ... more coffee ... more flavor.
:)
Just goes to show, common sense isn't so common. A lot of smaller diameter portafilters use deeper filters, so they're still using 14 - 18 grams of coffee.
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If a 49mm filter with the same capacity as the current 58mm models produced better coffee, as Warrior says, why aren't the heavy hitters in the commercial machine market rushing to convert? The first maker to honestly say that they've converted to smaller portafilters for the sake of better coffee would have a huge advantage over the competition.
This would be so easy to demonstrate at trade shows, and the truth would be out there for all to see! I can just see it, company Zee brings out their 49mm portafilter machine and the buzz starts; "Have you been over to Zee's display yet? Their new machine uses 49mm portafilters and it makes the best coffee you've ever had!" All of a sudden the other machine makers would have power failures at their displays and couldn't demo their products. ;D
The simple answer is the 58mm must be the best size or it wouldn't be so widely used.
+1
It's only common sense ... bigger portafilter ... more coffee ... more flavor.
:)
Just goes to show, common sense isn't so common. A lot of smaller diameter portafilters use deeper filters, so they're still using 14 - 18 grams of coffee.
Yeah ... the Vivaldi went that route. Would be interesting to pull shots side by side with a Vibiemme and see who pulls the best shot.
:)
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I am somewhat tempted by all this talk. I sold my Silvia when I couldn't get a decent shot from it and lost patience with it. I now own a superauto and never use it.
So getting another machine now doesn't make sense to me (since I haven't had a shot that I have liked). So, I will have to make the trek to Dave's or Peter's to convince myself it would be worth it.
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I am somewhat tempted by all this talk. I sold my Silvia when I couldn't get a decent shot from it and lost patience with it. I now own a superauto and never use it.
So getting another machine now doesn't make sense to me (since I haven't had a shot that I have liked). So, I will have to make the trek to Dave's or Peter's to convince myself it would be worth it.
Peter's. I am replacing the group head gasket and PID'ing the Silvia. No more surfing. Seeing Peter's new Vivaldi, doing some background reading along with his purchase, and then tasting the shots from Schotzie really drove home the critical nature of the temp control.
B|Java
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OK then. I need to determine what I like.
Just found a used Rancilio S-27 and a Rossi RR45 on craigslist. Would that be a decent set up?
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Visit Peter's and get an eyeful of his set-up. That is a good beginning point for gearing your sights down or up.
B|Java
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OK then. I need to determine what I like.
Just found a used Rancilio S-27 and a Rossi RR45 on craigslist. Would that be a decent set up?
The only knocks I'd have against an S27 is because of its funky group design.
(http://home.earthlink.net/~cm_harmon/images/Rancilio%20S27%20group.jpg)
With the group hanging off the boiler with little contact, there is no good way to manage group temps. The group temp would fluctuate as brew temp water is passed through it, and the brew temp would fluctuate with the group temp. I like a more massive group design, like the 13 pound E61 group on my Bunn ES-1A, which maintains a more stable temp as water passes through. I also prefer a group design with thermo-siphon group temp management design, again like the E61 group.
Bottom line: The Rancilio S27 would require more work to find and consistently hit a group temp sweet spot than an E61 group machine.
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Here's a news flash: As far as ease of pulling a shot goes and the quality of the shot are concerned, the SB/DU and double boiler are in a dead heat. Both designs involve heating a boiler to the desired brewing temperature and pulling a shot when the temp has stabilized.
The single biggest limiting factor in shot quality is boiler volume, since the SB/DU machines are often lower priced consumer machines they usually have much smaller boilers than the more costly prosumer double boilers machines.
The biggest difference in the two designs is their steaming capabilities. The double boiler machine has separate boilers for brewing and steaming, thus both functions can be done concurrently. The SB/DU machine uses the same boiler for both functions, so to use the machine to steam milk means a wait of some time as the boiler temperature is adjusted upwards.
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So I would have to add a PID? Is this something most guys could handle? Would I end up with a better machine than a Silvia?
That probably means it isn't worth the $1000 the guy is asking. I have asked the guy for pics. I also asked if he would sell them separately.
So, How much to offer?
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Here's what a 13 pound E61 group looks like disassembled;
(http://home.earthlink.net/~texas_coffee/images/Bunn%20ES-1A%20group%20parts.jpg)
The two large holes in the foreground are the thermo-siphon connections to the heat exchanger. This 13 pounds of brass equates to a lot of thermal mass, which means better heat retention as brewing temp water passes through it.
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So are you saying the only reason to get a machine more expensive than the Gaggia classic or the Silvia is to get one with the E61 group?
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So are you saying the only reason to get a machine more expensive than the Gaggia classic or the Silvia is to get one with the E61 group?
No, but I would only get a more expensive machine if it could make better espresso. That's determined by management of brew temperature and brew pressure. The Rancilio Silvia group is pretty much the same as the S27, hung off the side of the boiler and relying upon passive group temp management. The Gaggia group is directly below the boiler, in what's referred to as a saturated group configuration (whatever the boiler temp is, the group temp is identical).
If I was going to spend more than a Silvia or Classic costs, I'd consider how I intended to use it. Am I going to be drinking mostly straight shots or Americanos, or am I going to be making lots of milk based, frou-frou drinks? For simple shots there's nothing better than a SB/DU machine with an adequate boiler. The Classic boiler is smallish, the Silvia not much bigger; so ideally, I'd be looking for something with a near one-liter brew boiler.
For someone like John or Sean, there's nothing better than a double boiler machine. It'll let them pull shots and turn to making their frou-frou immediately. With a SB/DU machine you have to wait 30 seconds to a couple of minutes for the boiler temp to rise from brew temp to steam temp before proceeding.
Notice how I never answer a question directly? That's because there are so many design and manufacturing variables that evade simple answers. I want a machine with a heavy group, and if it's not a saturated La Marzocco/Synesso/Gaggia group, then I'd at least want an E61-type group with thermo-siphon temp management. I'd want the best boiler temp management device I could get or add (a PID). I'd want a large enough brew boiler that intra-shot and inter-shot temp stability wouldn't be an issue.
And I'd want a machine that I can work on myself, made with off-the-shelf parts, not proprietary parts that are difficult to get and when you can get them are outrageously expensive. That's one reason I like main-line commercial machines; I can get any part I need from http://cafeparts.com (http://cafeparts.com) or http://espressopart.com (http://espressopart.com) for very little money. The same goes for Gaggia machines; parts are available from http://shop.partsguru.com (http://shop.partsguru.com) and http://www.electra-craft.com (http://www.electra-craft.com).
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So I would have to add a PID? Is this something most guys could handle? Would I end up with a better machine than a Silvia?
That probably means it isn't worth the $1000 the guy is asking. I have asked the guy for pics. I also asked if he would sell them separately.
So, How much to offer?
I'd opt for a PID on any HX machine I bought that has a pressurestat. The pstat is a pressure switch that controls the boiler pressure, usually at 1.3 bar, which equates to ~253°F. The pstat most often used is a Siria 3-relay model.
Now, try to imagine 3 relays constantly opening & closing as the boiler pressure rises & falls. Click clack, click clack: constantly click clack, as you're trying to read, watch TV, or have a conversation.
For me the pstat simply had to go! The good news is the pstat is easily yanked out and a PID installed. The good thing about prosumer and commercial machines is there's more room for mods than in a cramped consumer machine like a Gaggia or Silvia.
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Why should the portafilter diameter affect the shot quality so much?
I'm no physicist but how else could it be?
If you exaggerate it and spread the 14G to a thin layer you can imagine that extraction has to taste different from one where the 14G is stacked up in a long skinny column no?
I have the answer you have all been looking for. After owning a ton of machines, many levers both home and commercial, prosumer semi-autos and commercial semi autos, I have done a lot of research into different companies takes on PF size.
Both a 58mm double commercial PF basket and an Elektra MCaL or Olympia Cremina (spring loaded vs manual lever. . . that calls for a completely different thread of it's own) 49mm double PF hold right around 18g of coffee, but there is one huge difference. . . a 58mm commercial machine will pull a 1.5oz shot while my Elektra would only pull a mere .75-1oz shot with a pull and a half of the lever (aka fellini maneuver). So why the difference in diameter? The narrower baskets give the resultant shot so many more layers of flavor! It is night and day with the exact same coffee. I happen to have had an Isomac Tea II at the same time as the Elektra and they both made great shots, the Elektra's just had a lot more character (The same can be said for the Cremina's shots). This was consistent with almost any coffee I put through both machines.
The Elektra did have a few downfalls of it's own and they are as follows: they can only manage about 3 double shots in a row and they are so hot you need to shut them off, they can only hold enough water for about 5 doubles total with flushing in between, small shot volume, and although their finish is so beautiful (I had a brass and copper one) they were impossible to keep sparkly clean and regardless of what rag you used to clean it you would get micro-scratches!
For the above reasons I got into commercial lever espresso machines. They have huge boilers that can accommodate even the largest group, you can plumb them in or run them from a 5 gallon bottle, they have steam for days, you can leave it on all day without a problem, and if you get a classic one they look sooooo cool! One problem with the majority of commercial lever machines is that the portafilter size bounces back up 58mm. That is why so many lever fanatics drool at the site of new and old La San Marco Lever espresso machines. To this day they maintain the original 53mm portafilter on their commercial levers. This makes them the best of both worlds. You have the convenience of a commercial lever machine with the beautiful layered flavor profile of a smaller home model.
Another thing that really sets levers apart, both home and commercial models, is the overall simplicity and lack of electronic parts. The only electronic parts they have are pressurestats and heating elements (and a brain and PID if you so choose). To me fewer electronic parts means fewer problems, and this has been my exact experience. I have never had anything break on any of the levers I have owned whether I purchased them new or purchased them used and rebuilt / restored them. Obviously you will have to descale them and replace their o-rings from time to time, but that goes for any espresso machine.
No matter how long it takes me I will convert some of you :) ! It sounds like a few of you may be converting yourselves. . . . Lever machines definitely have a steep learning curve. You will not set one up and pull an amazing shot straight away, but that makes pulling a great shot so much more exciting. Once you get use to them and their borderline finicky tendencies you are rewarded with outstanding espresso.
Thank you for this Warrior. It has provided me with great insight into this different portafilter size business.
:)
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If a 49mm filter with the same capacity as the current 58mm models produced better coffee, as Warrior says, why aren't the heavy hitters in the commercial machine market rushing to convert? The first maker to honestly say that they've converted to smaller portafilters for the sake of better coffee would have a huge advantage over the competition.
This would be so easy to demonstrate at trade shows, and the truth would be out there for all to see! I can just see it, company Zee brings out their 49mm portafilter machine and the buzz starts; "Have you been over to Zee's display yet? Their new machine uses 49mm portafilters and it makes the best coffee you've ever had!" All of a sudden the other machine makers would have power failures at their displays and couldn't demo their products. ;D
The simple answer is the 58mm must be the best size or it wouldn't be so widely used.
If you had a wide variety of different lever espresso machines in front of you, you would notice several differences between each brand. One thing that you might notice, that they pretty much all have in common, is the height of their group head water chambers. Across the board, whether we are talking about home lever machines or commercial lever machines, almost all of the machines would have a 4-4.5" chamber. The height and diameter of the chamber have a direct impact on how much water will fit into that chamber. Something that would be different among the many lever machines you have in front of you would be the diameter of the PF. Elektra = 49mm, Ponte Vecchio = 45mm, Conti = 58mm, Caramali = 58mm, La San Marco = 55mm. All of these PFs with a double basket in them will fit approximately 18g of ground coffee.
Now, if you have the same amount of coffee with varying amounts of water being pushed through those tamped 18g pucks what differences will you see? You would find that the water flowing through the more narrow PFs had to push it's way through more coffee to get into the cup.You would also find out that less water going through will result in shorter shots, anywhere from .75-1oz. As a result of the previous two occurring, you would find that the machines with more narrow / taller PFs, and subsequently a more narrow water chamber, rendered shots with slightly more body and more layers of flavor. I think this has a lot to do with the design rationale behind most commercial espresso machine manufacturers PF size. They get a pretty darn good extraction and a 1.5oz volume in the cup. That is good for business.
Okay, now visualize something for me. Pretend you have 2 portafilters in front of you, a 58mm La Marzocco PF and a 55mm La San Marco PF from a lever. Now fill them both with 18g of coffee and tamp. The 58mm PF will have a wider / flatter puck to the La San Marcos more narrow / taller puck. The resultant shot volume will be slightly different with the 58mm LM producing 1.5oz and the La San Marco producing just under 1.5oz. So why does the shot taste different? Picture the water going through the coffee in individual droplets. Each drop of water going through the 55mm La San Marco PF will touch more coffee grounds and extract more of the essential oils compared to the water going through the the flatter / wider 58mm LM PF. The resultant product has a more vibrant flavor that presents itself in many more layers with slightly more body, due to the smaller volume of water, when compared to the shot pulled through the 58mm LM PF. It seems rather simple to me, the more layers of coffee you go through, the more you can extract from those grounds. I am not saying the 58mm La Marzocco is pulling garbage, I know they can pull amazing shots, but the end results are dramatically different.
James Freeman at Blue Bottle swears by 55mm La San Marcos. He is simply obsessed with them for pulling SO espresso shots, and that is all he uses them for in his shops. The Lux Coffee Bar in Phoenix, AZ uses a 3 group La San Marco Lever espresso machine as their primary machine in their shop. Tom Owens of SweetMarias says the 2 San Marco Lever espresso machines he owned were 2 of the best machines he ever had. An individual within Home-Barista, who has also restored a 1970s La San Marco Lever, utilizes his La San Marco Lever and a Synesso in his shop. He too states that he much prefers the shots from the La San Marco to the Synesso (although he did say he likes the temp stability of the Synesso when serving customers in a crowded cafe). These things have a cult following, and most of the people who have tasted prime shots from them become believers.
I think most people are scared of what they do not know, and levers are definitely not the norm. Most people who own coffee shots have never encountered, or care to encounter, a commercial lever espresso machine. I think all but the best coffee shops probably have way to high of an employee turnaround rate to take to time to teach someone proper technique machines that are much more finicky than a standard semi-auto.
I do have to say that I do not agree with the comment stating that most companies must use 58mm PFs because they are better. The reason I disagree is I have 2 machines in my house that could change everyone in this forums mind. I have never believed that the most widely accepted anything is ever the best simply because it is more commonplace. If you trace the PF size of almost all of these companies back to their early beginnings, you will find that their PF sizes have not changed. They probably do not see the majority of coffee consumers worldwide really caring all too much about the minor intricacies that a slightly more narrow / taller PF would add to the final cup. Let's be honest. . . . most people probably wouldn't.
Another thing most consumers probably would not like is a new and improved better tasting shot with a new volume of 1oz, per a 49mm lever setup, as compared to 1.5oz, from a 58mm lever setup. 98% of consumers would not be able to tell any difference outside of the increased cost per ounce of espresso. Not to mention if you reduce the amount of espresso you will also have to reduce the amount of water when making an Americano, milk when making a Latte and Foam when making a Capp, which means smaller drinks around the board. That probably would not fly!
I am sure even your mind could be changed, once you come over to the dark side Tex :) .
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I think I get it.
Basically you prefer the Gaggia line because their group is heavier and because of where it is situated relative to the boiler. By PID'ing the boiler on these machines you also control the group temp.
THe next consideration is how much milk steaming you want to do. That would influence how you want the boiler arranged. It seems the Baby Twin would be the most flexible.
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I think I get it.
Basically you prefer the Gaggia line because their group is heavier and because of where it is situated relative to the boiler. By PID'ing the boiler on these machines you also control the group temp.
THe next consideration is how much milk steaming you want to do. That would influence how you want the boiler arranged. It seems the Baby Twin would be the most flexible.
Except the Baby Twin is widely accepted to be a POS; Gaggias answer to the Edsel! If I really wanted to use a Gaggia for its shot producing ability, and also wanted to make frou-frou drinks, I'd look for a stand-alone steamer to compliment the Gaggia.
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I think I get it.
Basically you prefer the Gaggia line because their group is heavier and because of where it is situated relative to the boiler. By PID'ing the boiler on these machines you also control the group temp.
THe next consideration is how much milk steaming you want to do. That would influence how you want the boiler arranged. It seems the Baby Twin would be the most flexible.
Stop planning to frustrate yourself, plop down some coin, and get something that you will grow into instead of putting it up for sale after a year of lousy coffee. :P
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If a 49mm filter with the same capacity as the current 58mm models produced better coffee, as Warrior says, why aren't the heavy hitters in the commercial machine market rushing to convert? The first maker to honestly say that they've converted to smaller portafilters for the sake of better coffee would have a huge advantage over the competition.
This would be so easy to demonstrate at trade shows, and the truth would be out there for all to see! I can just see it, company Zee brings out their 49mm portafilter machine and the buzz starts; "Have you been over to Zee's display yet? Their new machine uses 49mm portafilters and it makes the best coffee you've ever had!" All of a sudden the other machine makers would have power failures at their displays and couldn't demo their products. ;D
The simple answer is the 58mm must be the best size or it wouldn't be so widely used.
+1
It's only common sense ... bigger portafilter ... more coffee ... more flavor.
:)
So you would say a Standard 1.5oz shot has more flavor and body than a 1oz Ristretto shot?
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I think I get it.
Basically you prefer the Gaggia line because their group is heavier and because of where it is situated relative to the boiler. By PID'ing the boiler on these machines you also control the group temp.
THe next consideration is how much milk steaming you want to do. That would influence how you want the boiler arranged. It seems the Baby Twin would be the most flexible.
Stop planning to frustrate yourself, plop down some coin, and get something that you will grow into instead of putting it up for sale after a year of lousy coffee. :P
Lousy coffee is more an indictment of the barista, not the equipment! ;) I used to keep a Delonghi EC140b around, just to prove to folks that fresh coffee, properly ground and distributed in a non-pressurized filter, would let even the cheapest espresso machine make decent coffee (not great, but decent & drinkable coffee).
But you're right, each person should match the machine they buy against their bank statement and ego. Some folks will never be happy pulling great shots with a PID'd Classic or Silvia - they just don't have the pizazz some folks seek. Some folks are like my 60ish neighbor, a Corvette just says something about who they are, you know!
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I used to keep a Delonghi EC140b around, just to prove to folks that fresh coffee, properly ground and distributed in a non-pressurized filter, would let even the cheapest espresso machine make decent coffee (not great, but decent & drinkable coffee).
But a Rocky doesn't cut it. You are one big Texas-sized contradiction.
And it isn't possible that your neighbor just always wanted a Corvette so he went and got one? Why do assume that someone buying something other than what makes sense to you has ulterior motives?
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I used to keep a Delonghi EC140b around, just to prove to folks that fresh coffee, properly ground and distributed in a non-pressurized filter, would let even the cheapest espresso machine make decent coffee (not great, but decent & drinkable coffee).
But a Rocky doesn't cut it. You are one big Texas-sized contradiction.
And it isn't possible that your neighbor just always wanted a Corvette so he went and got one? Why do assume that someone buying something other than what makes sense to you has ulterior motives?
That's exactly why he bought the 'vette - he wanted it. I'm the one who's attributing his purchase to mid-life crisis. And how else would we measure anyone's action by if not by our own standards? I see the mid-sixties oil executive marrying the mid-twenties daughter of some main-line family and I think trophy wife. Right or wrong that's how I perceive it.
So I see the guy who buys a $2000 - $5000 espresso machine and say to myself, "Self, does that espresso machine make espresso that's better than a PID'd Rancilio Silvia or Gaggia Classic??" And my self answers, "Of course not, the buyer's succumbed to some perceived reality, not reality as you know it."
Now I'm not saying a persons perception of reality isn't valid for them, just that the reality may not be valid for anyone else. Each person makes decisions suitable to their wants and needs. Trying to convince someone else that your perception of the truth is the only truth, is the ultimate in hubris.
I myself try to present options, based on my sense of what's real and valid. I hope anyone reading my opinions understands that my reality may not be applicable to their situation. Take anything I say, mix it with whatever someone else is saying, weigh your wants & needs, and base your decision on your own version of the truth.
Or ignore everything I say - it's all the same to me. :P
edited: And the Delonghi wasn't used as an example of what's optimum - just what's possible. The Rocky isn't a terrible grinder - it just doesn't meet MY minimum standards as an acceptable espresso grinder. If it works for you that's great.
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So I see the guy who buys a $2000 - $5000 espresso machine and say to myself, "Self, does that espresso machine make espresso that's better than a PID'd Rancilio Silvia or Gaggia Classic??" And my self answers, "Of course not, the buyer's succumbed to some perceived reality, not reality as you know it."
I'll agree on one portion of what you are saying.
Simply buying a better machine does not = better espresso.
But just like the grinders better machines are.....better. There is no inherent downside to having a better machine because better results are (potentially) possible.
Now do 85% of people upgrading actualize those potentials or would the PID Gaggia have been able to offer them the same level of quality they experience....that is a question we would probably agree on more closely.
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Trying to convince someone else that your perception of the truth is the only truth, is the ultimate in hubris.
The ultimate in hubris is trying to assess motive to someone else' actions.
We judge others by their actions, but judge ourselves by our intentions.
Granted, we can't see others' hearts, so the only thing we have to go on is their actions. Which of course is why it's foolhardy to imply motives, which you are doing.
Edit; let me add 'in my opinion', just to be safe. ;D
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Trying to convince someone else that your perception of the truth is the only truth, is the ultimate in hubris.
The ultimate in hubris is trying to assess motive to someone else' actions.
We judge others by their actions, but judge ourselves by our intentions.
Granted, we can't see others' hearts, so the only thing we have to go on is their actions. Which of course is why it's foolhardy to imply motives, which you are doing.
Edit; let me add 'in my opinion', just to be safe. ;D
This conversations getting too weighty for a country boy from Texas. Can you restate what you said in paragraphs with a minimum of multi-syllable words?
My intentions are pure, as always. It's my actions that gets everything dirtied up.
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questions:
if a smaller but deeper basket is "better" than the standard 58mm double basket, what does that
say about the 58mm triple basket, which is both deep and wide? How would it compare to the
55mm or smaller baskets? Would a 55mm or smaller triple basket be even better?
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questions:
if a smaller but deeper basket is "better" than the standard 58mm double basket, what does that
say about the 58mm triple basket, which is both deep and wide? How would it compare to the
55mm or smaller baskets? Would a 55mm or smaller triple basket be even better?
The thing is, I'd be willing to bet that no one has ever done the testing to prove if one's better than the rest. It's kinda like the Illy article I like to cite, without the numbers from his testing to back up his claims, who's to say 9 bar is best, or the brew temp range is accurate?
All of these numbers fall into the conventional wisdom category, or maybe they're just urban legends?
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So Robert ... are you doubting Warrior's experience with different size portafilters?
???
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Trying to convince someone else that your perception of the truth is the only truth, is the ultimate in hubris.
The ultimate in hubris is trying to assess motive to someone else' actions.
There's a brewery in town here that used to be Huber's. Now its called Minhas. I liked Hubers better.
http://www.minhasbrewery.com/main.asp (http://www.minhasbrewery.com/main.asp)
I still have to convince myself that espresso is worth the effort. Until I do, my next purchase will be an egg.
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So Robert ... are you doubting Warrior's experience with different size portafilters?
???
No, but it's far from what I'd consider scientific proof. I'd probably need a 10,000 sq ft lab, and $500,000 worth of equipment minimum to do the kind of scientific testing that would satisfy me. There are probably grants to be had to do this, but I'm too retired to look into it
But, until the testing is done and the results published, take anything you read about one portafilter size being better than another with a grain of salt.
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Trying to convince someone else that your perception of the truth is the only truth, is the ultimate in hubris.
The ultimate in hubris is trying to assess motive to someone else' actions.
There's a brewery in town here that used to be Huber's. Now its called Minhas. I liked Hubers better.
[url]http://www.minhasbrewery.com/main.asp[/url] ([url]http://www.minhasbrewery.com/main.asp[/url])
I still have to convince myself that espresso is worth the effort. Until I do, my next purchase will be an egg.
A few Huber's and one's hubris factor increases exponentially. ;D
An egg is a good thing, but how are you ever going to make good espresso with one?
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So Robert ... are you doubting Warrior's experience with different size portafilters?
???
No, but it's far from what I'd consider scientific proof. I'd probably need a 10,000 sq ft lab, and $500,000 worth of equipment minimum to do the kind of scientific testing that would satisfy me. There are probably grants to be had to do this, but I'm too retired to look into it
But, until the testing is done and the results published, take anything you read about one portafilter size being better than another with a grain of salt.
Or you could put your grain of salt back into the salt box, save the $500,000 dollars, come over to my house and play with 5 different classic commercial lever espresso machines. You would have 3-58mm machines to play with, 2-Conti and 1-Caramali and 2-55mm La San Marcos. I am sure I could also borrow the Olympia Cremina from the local coffee lover too whom I sold it, so we could get a 49mm in on the action too. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but I can say from experience the shots from machines having different PF basket sizes taste different and I personally believe the machines with smaller PFs are capable of pulling far superior shots. Until you experience the shots from one of these machines yourself you may think otherwise, but that will not sway my palate. . . It has already made up it's mind :) .
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questions:
if a smaller but deeper basket is "better" than the standard 58mm double basket, what does that
say about the 58mm triple basket, which is both deep and wide? How would it compare to the
55mm or smaller baskets? Would a 55mm or smaller triple basket be even better?
The thing is, I'd be willing to bet that no one has ever done the testing to prove if one's better than the rest. It's kinda like the Illy article I like to cite, without the numbers from his testing to back up his claims, who's to say 9 bar is best, or the brew temp range is accurate?
All of these numbers fall into the conventional wisdom category, or maybe they're just urban legends?
There is also an Illy article where he presents a optimum depth to width ratio for 14g and comes up with 58mm, can't find it now. My San Marco is 55mm and the taste does seem different. Just don't ask me to describe what the difference is.
Dan Brewer
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questions:
if a smaller but deeper basket is "better" than the standard 58mm double basket, what does that
say about the 58mm triple basket, which is both deep and wide? How would it compare to the
55mm or smaller baskets? Would a 55mm or smaller triple basket be even better?
Great point! Having experienced 58mm triple basket shots with a Synesso triple basket on my Isomac Tea II and my Magister, I would have to say you might be onto something there. The two flavor profiles would be much more similar between a Ristretto shot pulled on a 58mm triple basket and a full shot pulled with a 55mm double basket on a La San Marco lever espresso machine.
The only catch is that La San Marco also makes a Triple 55mm basket, so if you add that into the equation and put the 58mm triple and 55mm triple against each other you run into the same problem again. But, for all intensive purposes you just helped me describe the basic differences to everyone here in the forum. I know many of the espresso lovers in here have 58mm espresso machines, so now they can play with their own home 58mm espresso machines and try to pick up the differences in shot profile when they pull a 1.5oz shot with a 58mm double basket followed by a Ristretto with a 58mm triple basket. You will taste a difference . . . . . Thank You!
-
questions:
if a smaller but deeper basket is "better" than the standard 58mm double basket, what does that
say about the 58mm triple basket, which is both deep and wide? How would it compare to the
55mm or smaller baskets? Would a 55mm or smaller triple basket be even better?
The thing is, I'd be willing to bet that no one has ever done the testing to prove if one's better than the rest. It's kinda like the Illy article I like to cite, without the numbers from his testing to back up his claims, who's to say 9 bar is best, or the brew temp range is accurate?
All of these numbers fall into the conventional wisdom category, or maybe they're just urban legends?
There is also an Illy article where he presents a optimum depth to width ratio for 14g and comes up with 58mm, can't find it now. My San Marco is 55mm and the taste does seem different. Just don't ask me to describe what the difference is.
Dan Brewer
To me it yields a shot with slightly more body and a more layered flavor profile. I could say that to all of my friends and they would just look at me even more cross-eyed, as they already think I am nuts with all of the machine I have in my house. Shoot, they thought all coffee was the same until I came along. . . .
-
Trying to convince someone else that your perception of the truth is the only truth, is the ultimate in hubris.
The ultimate in hubris is trying to assess motive to someone else' actions.
There's a brewery in town here that used to be Huber's. Now its called Minhas. I liked Hubers better.
[url]http://www.minhasbrewery.com/main.asp[/url] ([url]http://www.minhasbrewery.com/main.asp[/url])
I still have to convince myself that espresso is worth the effort. Until I do, my next purchase will be an egg.
A few Huber's and one's hubris factor increases exponentially. ;D
An egg is a good thing, but how are you ever going to make good espresso with one?
To my knowledge, I haven't ever had good espresso. So, I'll stick with the egg........or chicken.... or whichever came first.
-
addendum - I will keep my eye out for a fixer upper that might be worthy of refurbing on the off chance I want to try this again. For instance the Gaggia Coffee for $90?
-
Trying to convince someone else that your perception of the truth is the only truth, is the ultimate in hubris.
The ultimate in hubris is trying to assess motive to someone else' actions.
There's a brewery in town here that used to be Huber's. Now its called Minhas. I liked Hubers better.
[url]http://www.minhasbrewery.com/main.asp[/url] ([url]http://www.minhasbrewery.com/main.asp[/url])
I still have to convince myself that espresso is worth the effort. Until I do, my next purchase will be an egg.
A few Huber's and one's hubris factor increases exponentially. ;D
An egg is a good thing, but how are you ever going to make good espresso with one?
To my knowledge, I haven't ever had good espresso. So, I'll stick with the egg........or chicken.... or whichever came first.
You poor depraved soul ... you must have one before you depart this great earth of ours.
:(
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To my knowledge, I haven't ever had good espresso. So, I'll stick with the egg........or chicken.... or whichever came first.
You poor depraved soul ... you must have one before you depart this great earth of ours.
:(
In that case, if you're over here again, I won't make you an espresso, 'cuz it will rock your world too badly.
-
I still have to convince myself that espresso is worth the effort. Until I do, my next purchase will be an egg.
Results will come much easier, faster, and sharable with the BGE.
I've said before that really good coffee is a lonely thing. Some of the best coffee we will ever have is standing alone in a kitchen and even if you have 9 people there you can't really share the experience because it's really hard to find people that get it.
Espresso is so much worse in this respect.
But it's pretty easy to find people who like grilled chicken and I think the learning curve is quick on the Egg.
If you are not sure yet I'd go for the egg.
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I still have to convince myself that espresso is worth the effort. Until I do, my next purchase will be an egg.
Results will come much easier, faster, and sharable with the BGE.
I've said before that really good coffee is a lonely thing. Some of the best coffee we will ever have is standing alone in a kitchen and even if you have 9 people there you can't really share the experience because it's really hard to find people that get it.
Espresso is so much worse in this respect...
Boy, if that isn't the truth. Everyone at the office wants me to bring in the fixin's for coffee. They love it. But if I get to the second sentence about the origin, their eyes glaze over. Doesn't matter. I know when I have roasted and prepared it well.
B|Java
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To my knowledge, I haven't ever had good espresso. So, I'll stick with the egg........or chicken.... or whichever came first.
You poor depraved soul ... you must have one before you depart this great earth of ours.
:(
In that case, if you're over here again, I won't make you an espresso, 'cuz it will rock your world too badly.
Au contraire ... if you think you can rock my world ... rock on! A rocking of my world is not too badly ... it is too goodly!
The only time I was over there I didn't know you guys. I had ventured to Milwaukee and Saukville Wisconsin ... but that was many moons ago ... and on business to boot.
;D
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Boy, if that isn't the truth. Everyone at the office wants me to bring in the fixin's for coffee. They love it. But if I get to the second sentence about the origin, their eyes glaze over.
You know how much worse it is with espresso?
Even when they do the nod. :-\
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So far, I have found a La Cimbali Domus Dosatron for $300. Worthy of rescue?
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Boy, if that isn't the truth. Everyone at the office wants me to bring in the fixin's for coffee. They love it. But if I get to the second sentence about the origin, their eyes glaze over.
You know how much worse it is with espresso?
Even when they do the nod. :-\
I either get the "nod of catatonia" or someone will stay behind to ask how they can make coffee like that? It seems there's little middle ground.
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So far, I have found a La Cimbali Domus Dosatron for $300. Worthy of rescue?
La Cimbali makes good equipment.
:)
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So far, I have found a La Cimbali Domus Dosatron for $300. Worthy of rescue?
Earlier today it was the egg.
What's it going to be? Which will come first, the egg or the chicken 'spresso?
B|Java
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So far, I have found a La Cimbali Domus Dosatron for $300. Worthy of rescue?
There are lots to choose from, but I had one of these & loved it!
http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/members/buysell/484676 (http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/members/buysell/484676)
I do know the seller and if he says it's in good shape I'd trust him. The machine weighs ~90 lbs so S&H could be steep?
Here's a movie of my Mac Digit in operation;
2008-11-26: Nuova Simonelli Mac Digit (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MubNM8fEo80#)
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So far, I have found a La Cimbali Domus Dosatron for $300. Worthy of rescue?
Earlier today it was the egg.
What's it going to be? Which will come first, the egg or the chicken 'spresso?
B|Java
Why not both?
Steaming Eggs on an Espresso Machine (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wbOvF1ubJM#ws)
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You sold that MacDigit ... did you not Robert?
???
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You sold that MacDigit ... did you not Robert?
???
Yes, after I'd replaced the pstat with a PID & did a complete tear down and rebuild like Nat did. For some reason the NS HX machine doesn't command a high resale price.
The only thing I didn't like about it was the steam tip - a four-hole monster more at home steaming a half-gallon of milk rather than the 20 oz or so I did for lattes at home. That's easily remedied though, and it's a steaming monster because of its 4.8 liter boiler - anyone have a small steamboat needing a good boiler?
This is one of those times when a buyer is better off buying a machine that's already been restored rather than doing it themselves!
Here's Nat's Craig's List post: http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/app/1777159048.html (http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/app/1777159048.html)
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To my knowledge, I haven't ever had good espresso. So, I'll stick with the egg........or chicken.... or whichever came first.
You poor depraved soul ... you must have one before you depart this great earth of ours.
:(
In that case Pyment, if you're over here again, I won't make you an espresso, 'cuz it will rock your world too badly.
;D
I fixed it, the post was aimed at Pyment.
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So far, I have found a La Cimbali Domus Dosatron for $300. Worthy of rescue?
Earlier today it was the egg.
What's it going to be? Which will come first, the egg or the chicken 'spresso?
B|Java
Why not both?
Steaming Eggs on an Espresso Machine ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wbOvF1ubJM#ws[/url])
Is that called eggspresso?
???
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It's not about the money. I am much more likely to do this if its a rescue job.
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You sold that MacDigit ... did you not Robert?
???
OK Mrs. Tex. What did you do with MP?
She spared me ... I'm still alive and kicking ... but Robert won't be if she sees that the MacDigit is still at the Harmon household.
>:D
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It's not about the money. I am much more likely to do this if its a rescue job.
Then rescue this before Warrior gets his mitts on it!
(http://images.craigslist.org/3ob3p63lb5O05T35S1a6567660d31436810de.jpg) (http://raleigh.craigslist.org/for/1777530908.html)
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It's not about the money. I am much more likely to do this if its a rescue job.
Then rescue this before Warrior gets his mitts on it!
([url]http://images.craigslist.org/3ob3p63lb5O05T35S1a6567660d31436810de.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://raleigh.craigslist.org/for/1777530908.html[/url])
That's not old and grungy enough for the Warrior. Besides, it is in working condition. ;D
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They want $1,800 too. . . . I like older, prettier ones that ideally cost $500 or less :) . I do not necessarily need them to be grungy Peter, but people usually want less money for grungy machines vs rebuilt / restored machines. Plus I think the rebuild / restoration is half the fun. When the machine is finally fully restored in like-new condition, and up and running, it makes the final shot taste that much better.
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It's not about the money. I am much more likely to do this if its a rescue job.
Funny, but at the moment there really aren't any machines on CL or eBay in need of rescuing. I have a NS Personal, but it's a bit too grungy for a noob to tackle, besides I couldn't pack it for shipment anyway. Usually there are a good handful of interesting machines to be had, but not now.
It gets like this with the Bunn ES-1A machines; sometimes there's a glut of them on the market and at other times you don't see one for months. I'm rebuilding my #2 machine, complete strip job and repaint & replate everything to bring it past like-new condition. When I finish I'll be selling my #1 machine - completely restored mechanically and PID'd, but the finish is a bit rough. Probably when I get ready to sell it there'll be a half-dozen rough condition machines keeping the prices down! It's always that way.
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They want $1,800 too. . . . I like older, prettier ones that cost $500 or less :) .
Yeah, I getcha. I'm still looking for my Gaggia/Visacrem lever machine and I'm just a bit too picky to settle for the newer stuff.
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The summer is the best time to find old vintage espresso machines on the internet! The estate / garage sales bring out some real talent for some great prices!
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They want $1,800 too. . . . I like older, prettier ones that cost $500 or less :) .
Yeah, I getcha. I'm still looking for my Gaggia/Visacrem lever machine and I'm just a bit too picky to settle for the newer stuff.
Have you ever heard of Julius Groten? He is one of the foremost authorities on rare lever espresso machines from the 40s and 50s. He has quite a collection, and his machines are absolutely amazing! He just found and restored a 3-Group Gaggia from the 50s. I tried to upload the pictures he sent me, but apparently you cannot upload Jpegs in the forum. . . how would I convert those? Here are some of his other machines though. He is who I send photos of my machines to for appraisals.
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The summer is the best time to find old vintage espresso machines on the internet! The estate / garage sales bring out some real talent for some great prices!
And you're right, rebuilding a grungy POS to like-new condition and then using it to pull great shots is very satisfying!
A few years ago we did a frame-off restoration of my son's 'vette, a car that I'd owned since the 60's. I'm sure it never ran or looked so good as it did when we put the hood on and gave it a final buffing.
There's such a sense of ownership that comes with doing the work to bring something back to life.
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The summer is the best time to find old vintage espresso machines on the internet! The estate / garage sales bring out some real talent for some great prices!
And you're right, rebuilding a grungy POS to like-new condition and then using it to pull great shots is very satisfying!
A few years ago we did a frame-off restoration of my son's 'vette, a car that I'd owned since the 60's. I'm sure it never ran or looked so good as it did when we put the hood on and gave it a final buffing.
There's such a sense of ownership that comes with doing the work to bring something back to life.
Now that I think about it, maybe that is why the shots from my 2-55mm PF La San Marcos have more body and layers of flavor ;D . I agree it is a very satisfying feeling!
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after looking at some new machines, Ascaso products are catching my eye. That means 1st line. It's not just the Holstein markings.
(http://www.1st-line.net/mas_assets/full/DRbbVtc.jpg)
But the Steel Uno Pro with PID looks mighty nice for a new machine.
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I take it that you are looking at this one (http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/ascaso/ascaso_steel_uno_prof_pid.htm)? Have you considered the possibility of an E61 group?
:)
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yes and yes.
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I take it that you are looking at this one ([url]http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/ascaso/ascaso_steel_uno_prof_pid.htm[/url])? Have you considered the possibility of an E61 group?
:)
Still a SB/DU. Strike one.
The PID is only controlling the boiler temp, leaving you guessing at the group temp. Strike two.
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I read something that said the group is under the boiler. Much like the boiler set up in the Gaggia.
Besides, I kind of like buying something that isn't Italian and going against the grain.
I don't see the SB/DU as a big disadvantage. Why not foam the milk first since that takes the most time? It should retain heat pretty well.
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Because the temp for the steam boiler is waaaaay higher than brew temp, and it takes a while to come down.
Just come over some day, maybe a day other than Friday when we're cupping, so we can spend a couple hours together.
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I read something that said the group is under the boiler. Much like the boiler set up in the Gaggia.
Besides, I kind of like buying something that isn't Italian and going against the grain.
I don't see the SB/DU as a big disadvantage. Why not foam the milk first since that takes the most time? It should retain heat pretty well.
I'd get a nice looking stand-alone steamer - either stove top or electric. I have one friend that uses a Krups steam toy for its steam capacity.
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I may just. If I move my current machine to the cabin and sell the Rocky, I may be able to purchase a pretty decent set up. If Dave has his PID done by then maybe I can invite myself over there.
Next week? Friday or Sat?
This may take all summer.
____
Tex do you know of a stand alone steamer that doesn't take too much space or $$?
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I may just. If I move my current machine to the cabin and sell the Rocky, I may be able to purchase a pretty decent set up. If Dave has his PID done by then maybe I can invite myself over there.
Next week? Friday or Sat?
This may take all summer.
____
Tex do you know of a stand alone steamer that doesn't take too much space or $$?
I used one like this on my boat for years. Simple, cheap, and plenty of steam for personal use.
http://www.amazon.com/Stovetop-Cappuccino-Frother-Steamer/dp/B003GWTBVI (http://www.amazon.com/Stovetop-Cappuccino-Frother-Steamer/dp/B003GWTBVI)
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Of course I could just wait for them to add a PID to the Ascaso Steel Duo.
http://www.1st-line.com/homemachines/steel_duos.html (http://www.1st-line.com/homemachines/steel_duos.html)
Is the group configuration such that the group temp is the boiler temp?
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Of course I could just wait for them to add a PID to the Ascaso Steel Duo.
[url]http://www.1st-line.com/homemachines/steel_duos.html[/url] ([url]http://www.1st-line.com/homemachines/steel_duos.html[/url])
Is the group configuration such that the group temp is the boiler temp?
Certifiable POS.
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Of course I could just wait for them to add a PID to the Ascaso Steel Duo.
[url]http://www.1st-line.com/homemachines/steel_duos.html[/url] ([url]http://www.1st-line.com/homemachines/steel_duos.html[/url])
Is the group configuration such that the group temp is the boiler temp?
Certifiable POS.
Bwaahahahahahahahahah!
;D
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Of course I could just wait for them to add a PID to the Ascaso Steel Duo.
[url]http://www.1st-line.com/homemachines/steel_duos.html[/url] ([url]http://www.1st-line.com/homemachines/steel_duos.html[/url])
Is the group configuration such that the group temp is the boiler temp?
Certifiable POS.
Bwaahahahahahahahahah!
;D
These use a thermoblock for steam generation. I've had a half-dozen machines with this "feature" and they were all a certifiable POS!
And for that kind of money I'd want more than a 10 oz boiler.
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Is the group configuration such that the group temp is the boiler temp?
Are you asking about that particular machine? If not, then I'd say no.
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Is the group configuration such that the group temp is the boiler temp?
Are you asking about that particular machine? If not, then I'd say no.
The Steel has a saturated group, so yes the boiler temp & group temp will be the same if the temps are permitted the time to stabilize. There's a lot to like about the Steel (I had an auto version to play with for a few weeks); 3-way valve, adjustable OPV, and a nice s/s chassis. But then I saw the price (~$1,100) and found the steamer, and couldn't get rid of it fast enough!
And just look at the mess they made of the interior?
(http://1st-line.com/images/ascaso/duo%20office.jpg)
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to the uninitiated, inside they all look like a Waffle House hash browns with everything.
What you are saying that the "Duo" isn't a DB substitute.
Is $799 too much for the Steel with PID?
Speaking of POS, is the Gaggia Baby Twin a POS due to design or repair problems?
There is something to be said about making sure it looks good as part of the decision. I kind of like the Isomac Hexagon for that.
(http://www.1st-line.com/images/isomac/hexagon/Hexagon.jpg)
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to the uninitiated, inside they all look like a Waffle House hash browns with everything.
What you are saying that the "Duo" isn't a DB substitute.
Is $799 too much for the Steel with PID?
Speaking of POS, is the Gaggia Baby Twin a POS due to design or repair problems?
There is something to be said about making sure it looks good as part of the decision. I kind of like the Isomac Hexagon for that.
([url]http://www.1st-line.com/images/isomac/hexagon/Hexagon.jpg[/url])
The Baby Twin doesn't steam well (too wet & too much pulsing) - a common fault of thermoblock steamers. It also has some issues with a bad taste from the steamer that eventually goes away (I've heard users complain about it for months after buying it). Thermoblocks also don't have the life expectancy of a pressurized boiler.
PIDing any boiler would be a good thing, that part of the machine looked promising. There is the issue of some funky plumbing that I'd have to look at for a longer time? Generally an adjustable OPV & PID will turn any boiler machine into a better espresso machine. Of course the better the machine is to start with the better the machine will be when finished. To me, that's either a Silvia or Gaggia Classic/Baby.
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All this talk of a La San Marco has put me over the edge, thanks Warrior372, I think.
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All this talk of a La San Marco has put me over the edge, thanks Warrior372, I think.
You cracking the piggy bank Shaun?
???
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All this talk of a La San Marco has put me over the edge, thanks Warrior372, I think.
You cracking the piggy bank Shaun?
???
Not yet, more looking around is required.
-
All this talk of a La San Marco has put me over the edge, thanks Warrior372, I think.
You cracking the piggy bank Shaun?
???
Not yet, more looking around is required.
Are you going new or used?
???
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anything I can do to help?
http://longisland.craigslist.org/bfs/1690581920.html (http://longisland.craigslist.org/bfs/1690581920.html)
http://denver.craigslist.org/app/1732846271.html (http://denver.craigslist.org/app/1732846271.html)
http://cleveland.craigslist.org/for/1753647725.html (http://cleveland.craigslist.org/for/1753647725.html)
http://lasvegas.craigslist.org/bfs/1736334426.html (http://lasvegas.craigslist.org/bfs/1736334426.html)
http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/bfs/1741311613.html (http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/bfs/1741311613.html)
http://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/bfs/1779099492.html (http://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/bfs/1779099492.html)
http://seattle.craigslist.org/oly/bfs/1781923160.html (http://seattle.craigslist.org/oly/bfs/1781923160.html)
http://seattle.craigslist.org/est/app/1775964605.html (http://seattle.craigslist.org/est/app/1775964605.html)
I am kind of getting to like that Hexagon.
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All this talk of a La San Marco has put me over the edge, thanks Warrior372, I think.
Keep your eyes peeled for a classic lever model if you go down that road. I can not vouch for their semi-autos, as I have never played with one. They do not come up very often. I peruse craigslist across the entire US daily, and in 3 years of looking for them I have only found 2. I was lucky enough to be the first to contact the individuals on both of those machines. There is a very hungry crowd out for them, and if you find one you cannot hesitate for even a second. To make matters worse, not that many were ever imported to the US. Of those that were, not that many have survived. So grab one when you see it. They definitely have a cult following!
Here are a few pictures of mine. The first, an orange 80 series, is in the process of being rebuilt. She is in pieces awaiting powder coating of the inner frame and outer shell. The second, a 70 series with a hand hammered copper shell, has been completely rebuilt from the ground up. It is an extremely rare one, as it is single group machine with the internal capacity of the 2-groups they made in the 70s. I have never seen another on like it.
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forgot these:
http://cgi.ebay.com/San-Marco-Espresso-Machine-Mini-85-Red-Single-Pour-/390176358938?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Small_Kitchen_Appliances_US&hash=item5ad852c21a (http://cgi.ebay.com/San-Marco-Espresso-Machine-Mini-85-Red-Single-Pour-/390176358938?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Small_Kitchen_Appliances_US&hash=item5ad852c21a)
http://cgi.ebay.com/San-Marco-Espresso-Machine-/350326791529?cmd=ViewItem&pt=BI_Hot_Beverage_Brewers&hash=item51911a9d69 (http://cgi.ebay.com/San-Marco-Espresso-Machine-/350326791529?cmd=ViewItem&pt=BI_Hot_Beverage_Brewers&hash=item51911a9d69)
http://cgi.ebay.com/San-Marco-model-85-16M-2-dual-Espresso-maker-/320435713970?cmd=ViewItem&pt=BI_Hot_Beverage_Brewers&hash=item4a9b74f7b2 (http://cgi.ebay.com/San-Marco-model-85-16M-2-dual-Espresso-maker-/320435713970?cmd=ViewItem&pt=BI_Hot_Beverage_Brewers&hash=item4a9b74f7b2)
http://cgi.ebay.com/San-Marco-3-Group-Espresso-Machine-85-16M-3-/360235528210?cmd=ViewItem&pt=BI_Hot_Beverage_Brewers&hash=item53dfb5f012http://cgi.ebay.com/San-Marco-Espresso-Machine-/350326792095?cmd=ViewItem&pt=BI_Hot_Beverage_Brewers&hash=item51911a9f9f (http://cgi.ebay.com/San-Marco-3-Group-Espresso-Machine-85-16M-3-/360235528210?cmd=ViewItem&pt=BI_Hot_Beverage_Brewers&hash=item53dfb5f012http://cgi.ebay.com/San-Marco-Espresso-Machine-/350326792095?cmd=ViewItem&pt=BI_Hot_Beverage_Brewers&hash=item51911a9f9f)
http://cgi.ebay.com/San-Marco-Espresso-Maker-Machine-85-16M-2-Group-/400116430965?cmd=ViewItem&pt=BI_Hot_Beverage_Brewers&hash=item5d28cc3875 (http://cgi.ebay.com/San-Marco-Espresso-Maker-Machine-85-16M-2-Group-/400116430965?cmd=ViewItem&pt=BI_Hot_Beverage_Brewers&hash=item5d28cc3875)
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Here is the 70 series.
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Unbelievable ... you guys are like swarming Shaun like bees!
;D
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just trying to beat you to it.
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All this talk of a La San Marco has put me over the edge, thanks Warrior372, I think.
Keep your eyes peeled for a classic lever model if you go down that road. I can not vouch for their semi-autos, as I have never played with one. They do not come up very often. I peruse craigslist across the entire US daily, and in 3 years of looking for them I have only found 2. I was lucky enough to be the first to contact the individuals on both of those machines. There is a very hungry crowd out for them, and if you find one you cannot hesitate for even a second. To make matters worse, not that many were ever imported to the US. Of those that were, not that many have survived. So grab one when you see it. They definitely have a cult following!
Here are a few pictures of mine. The first, an orange 80 series, is in the process of being rebuilt. She is in pieces awaiting powder coating of the inner frame and outer shell. The second, a 70 series with a hand hammered copper shell, has been completely rebuilt from the ground up. It is an extremely rare one, as it is single group machine with the internal capacity of the 2-groups they made in the 70s. I have never seen another on like it.
I'll let you in on my secret acquisition tool: A UPS account! I offer to PayPal or send a check/money order for the purchase price, plus either email or send with the check/MO, a prepaid UPS shipping label. All the seller has to do is pack it, and give me the box dimensions & weight and I'll take care of the label. It's not much, but it cements the deal more quickly.
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You know, I have had horrible luck with UPS and 50+ pound espresso machines. I know it has something to do with the knuckle heads who pack the machines too, but I have never had an issue with FedEx Ground. Plus, it has always been considerably cheaper for me. Some people are just lazy though and refuse to ship no matter how much money you offer them!
Getting an account with a shipping company is a great idea. Do you have to commit to shipping a certain number of packages per month? Do you get a discount on shipping just for having an account?
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Getting an account with a shipping company is a great idea. Do you have to commit to shipping a certain number of packages per month? Do you get a discount on shipping just for having an account?
Just need to open an account, no requirements.
I also like to have it so that I can pay, print, and label outgoing boxes. Then you just have to drop it off w/o standing in line, or better yet, hand it to a driver.
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Fedex is running about 75-80% of the cost of UPS. Have an account with both of them; FedEx has more drop off points.
B|Java
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Fedex is running about 75-80% of the cost of UPS. Have an account with both of them; FedEx has more drop off points.
B|Java
I keep an account with them all - even USPS. The best used to be DHL Ground.
If the seller seems hesitant I ask if $20 would cover their cost of packaging and that usually seals the deal. I've had good success with UPS & heavy machines - I suggest to the seller that a piece of heavy fiberboard for the bottom of the box will make the shipment go a lot easier (that's what the $20 is for).
edited: When I create the shipping label, I save it to a PDF file, which I email to the shipper.
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Getting an account with a shipping company is a great idea. Do you have to commit to shipping a certain number of packages per month? Do you get a discount on shipping just for having an account?
Just need to open an account, no requirements.
I also like to have it so that I can pay, print, and label outgoing boxes. Then you just have to drop it off w/o standing in line, or better yet, hand it to a driver.
And one other thing, with an account you can order a lot of shipping supplies for free - free is always good!
edited: I even know one unscrupulous so & so who orders UPS 25 KG Express Paks and paints over the UPS logos and uses them for ground shipments. Those are some super-strong boxes!
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Getting an account with a shipping company is a great idea. Do you have to commit to shipping a certain number of packages per month? Do you get a discount on shipping just for having an account?
Just need to open an account, no requirements.
I also like to have it so that I can pay, print, and label outgoing boxes. Then you just have to drop it off w/o standing in line, or better yet, hand it to a driver.
And one other thing, with an account you can order a lot of shipping supplies for free - free is always good!
That is an interesting incentive / added bonus!
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I am kind of getting to like that Hexagon.
I've looked at that machine plenty of times.....
I also like it.
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Jim says they've been discontinued.
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Jim says they've been discontinued.
Yea. . . That is probably why some person has been asking $2,999 dollars for one on both ebay and craiglist for about 3 months.
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Well then, moving on.
On Essential Espresso (reliable vendor?) they list a Brasilia Mini Classic for $1499. With a 10% off coupon that makes it $1,349.10 shipped.
E-61 Brew Group
1.2 liter boiler
3 way solenoid
http://www.essentialespresso.com/Brasilia/Brasilia_Espresso_Machine.cfm?ConID=New_1#anchor (http://www.essentialespresso.com/Brasilia/Brasilia_Espresso_Machine.cfm?ConID=New_1#anchor)
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Your money Pyment.
Another option is the Vibiemme Domobar JUNIOR Double Boiler espresso w/PID for $1635.00 delivered.
- double boiler
- PID control
- 9 pound E61 true Faema group
- Insulated boilers
- professional grade 58 mm brass portafilters
- independent power switches for steam and coffee brewing
- 1600 watt heating element
- 62 pound shipping weight
Is a double boiler and PID machine worth another $300 to you?
http://cgi.ebay.com/Vibiemme-Domobar-JUNIOR-Double-Boiler-espresso-w-PID-/280515541720?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Small_Kitchen_Appliances_US&hash=item4150077ad8 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Vibiemme-Domobar-JUNIOR-Double-Boiler-espresso-w-PID-/280515541720?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Small_Kitchen_Appliances_US&hash=item4150077ad8)
:)
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I understand the reasoning behind the E61. This whole double boiler thing puzzles me.
It seems most commercial machines ansswer the steam problem with much bigger boilers instead. I don't forsee me beeing efficient enough to really worry abouta 30 sec delay between the shot and the steam.
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I understand the reasoning behind the E61. This whole double boiler thing puzzles me.
It seems most commercial machines ansswer the steam problem with much bigger boilers instead. I don't forsee me beeing efficient enough to really worry abouta 30 sec delay between the shot and the steam.
Double boiler ensures that you have the right temperature for both your functions ... that is the right temperature to do steam and the right temperature to pull a nice shot of espresso for that particular bean you are brewing.
The bigger the boiler the more consistent the water temperature for the duration of the shot. You simply cannot have more stable temperatures than a commercial machines big boiler.
On the other hand how many times will you have to pull 100 espressos an hour for 8 or more hours a day?
:)
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The nice part about commercial espresso machines is that if you want to throw a party and pull 100 shots per hour it is possible. But more then that, I love commercial espresso machines because they are built to pull 100+ shots per hour. To me this means all of their parts should outlive me, especially when I am typically only pulling 2-3 doubles a day.
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The nice part about commercial espresso machines is that if you want to throw a party and pull 100 shots per hour it is possible. But more then that, I love commercial espresso machines because they are built to pull 100+ shots per hour. To me this means all of their parts should outlive me, especially when I am typically only pulling 2-3 doubles a day.
They probably will outlive you and perhaps your offspring.
;D
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Double boiler ensures that you have the right temperature for both your functions ... that is the right temperature to do steam and the right temperature to pull a nice shot of espresso for that particular bean you are brewing.
I am not being dense on purpose, but right temp for steam? water boils when water boils and you either have enough steam or you don't. Fine temp control seems totally unnecessary. A pressure gauge, yes. PID, doesn't make sense to me.
I look at single group commercial machines. Most of them regulate brew temp without a PID. How?
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I understand the reasoning behind the E61. This whole double boiler thing puzzles me.
It seems most commercial machines ansswer the steam problem with much bigger boilers instead. I don't forsee me beeing efficient enough to really worry abouta 30 sec delay between the shot and the steam.
Most commercial machines use heat exchangers (HX). These typically have large boilers because the water in the HX is flash heated by the boiler water as fresh/cool water is passed through the HX on the way to the group. As an added benefit these large boilers also make prodigious amounts of steam.
HX: Designed for commercial operations where they seldom sit idle. When they do sit idle the temps of the group & HX tube/water will rise to stabilize at boiler temp (usually ~253°F). Way too hot for making espresso, it's necessary to flush fresh water through the HX & group to bring the temps down into the brewing range (195° - 203°). see note 1
Double Boiler: Each boiler is kept at the temp best suited for its purpose. The brew boiler is always at the temp selected that's within the range for brewing and the steam boiler is always at a temp which provides lots of steam power.
Single Boiler/Dual Use: Uses the same boiler for brewing and steaming. After a shot is pulled a switch is flipped and a circuit is activated which will bring the boiler temp to steaming temp (~300°F). Because of the temp changes it take a while to go from brew temp to steam temp and then back to brew temp.
edited - note 1: Brew temps in an HX are controlled by a combination of boiler temps which flash heat the water in the HX, how long the water stays in the HX tube as the shot is pulled, and the temp of the group. If permitted to sit idle, the HX & group will over heat and must be cooled down to brew temp before the shot is pulled.
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Double boiler ensures that you have the right temperature for both your functions ... that is the right temperature to do steam and the right temperature to pull a nice shot of espresso for that particular bean you are brewing.
I am not being dense on purpose, but right temp for steam? water boils when water boils and you either have enough steam or you don't. Fine temp control seems totally unnecessary. A pressure gauge, yes. PID, doesn't make sense to me.
I look at single group commercial machines. Most of them regulate brew temp without a PID. How?
Steam temps are important. They need to be regulated, or un-regulated would be better? When steam or hot water is drawn out, new water needs to be heated, and it needs to know when to turn on and off, and a PID for controlling the steam boiler is more accurate and durable than mechanical means (a pressure-stat?), from what I've read.
But if you are going to use that super-heated water for brewing, you are way too hot. Double boilers simply make sense, PID's on both makes more sense, and a PID that will monitor brew temps vs. boiler temps even more so.
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Double boiler ensures that you have the right temperature for both your functions ... that is the right temperature to do steam and the right temperature to pull a nice shot of espresso for that particular bean you are brewing.
I am not being dense on purpose, but right temp for steam? water boils when water boils and you either have enough steam or you don't. Fine temp control seems totally unnecessary. A pressure gauge, yes. PID, doesn't make sense to me.
I look at single group commercial machines. Most of them regulate brew temp without a PID. How?
Steam temps are important. They need to be regulated, or un-regulated would be better? When steam or hot water is drawn out, new water needs to be heated, and it needs to know when to turn on and off, and a PID for controlling the steam boiler is more accurate and durable than mechanical means (a pressure-stat?), from what I've read.
But if you are going to use that super-heated water for brewing, you are way too hot. Double boilers simply make sense, PID's on both makes more sense, and a PID that will monitor brew temps vs. boiler temps even more so.
Actually, pstats are very accurate, and the better ones have adjustable dead-bands which increases their accuracy. PID's for steam boilers is over kill. A PID is used to manage temps when fine accuracy is needed. A steam boiler will work fine within a 20°F range - no need for fine temp management.
For steam boilers I'd recommend the cheaper, and just as robust, Watlow temp limit controllers in place of the PID temp controllers. Match the right tool to the job at hand. In fact, if you can tolerate the racket a pstat makes as the relays open & close (click/clack, click/clack, all day and all night, click/clack), then I'd suggest staying with the pstat - they do a fine job when gross accuracy is all that's needed.
edited: More detailed explanations here: http://www.omega.com/prodinfo/temperaturecontrollers.html (http://www.omega.com/prodinfo/temperaturecontrollers.html)
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So, wouldn't it be more efficient to have one PID for the extraction process and a P-stat for the steam? Is there such a machine?
doesn't the Ascaso Steel single boiler with the PID essentially doing that in a single boiler machine? It has a saturated brass group head. It should perform like a PID'd Gaggia, right? Of course it looks better.
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You want two boilers, and regulated, easily-modulated temps at the group.
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So, wouldn't it be more efficient to have one PID for the extraction process and a P-stat for the steam? Is there such a machine?
doesn't the Ascaso Steel single boiler with the PID essentially doing that in a single boiler machine? It has a saturated brass group head. It should perform like a PID'd Gaggia, right? Of course it looks better.
I know nothing specific about it, so if you want to buy it and send it over I'd be happy to evaluate it - free of charge of course!
There's a big difference in quality between the industrial strength PID's like the Watlows Jim Gallt uses in his kits or the Cal Controls PID's I use in my mods and the off-brands used by some. Which is Ascaso using?
From what I saw in the Ascaso Duo I used for a few weeks, I'm not sold on their build quality. Honestly, I'd never buy a machine that looked so poorly put together. I don't know if their design translates into one that survives the test of time, but it completely failed my confidence test.
I'd stick with a proven design like the Silvia, Classic or Solis, and let someone else do the beta testing of a new design.
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You want two boilers, and regulated, easily-modulated temps at the group.
PID'd SB/DU machines (Silvia, Gaggia, Solis) are sufficient for home users.
Pull a shot, flip the steam switch; get the milk, pour it into the pitcher, and by that time the boiler is at steaming temp.
If you want to pull another shot right away, pull fresh water through the steam wand until the boiler temp has dropped to ~195°F, and let it set for a few seconds for the PID to stabilize the brew temp.
While waiting for the brew temp to stabilize, grind and tamp the coffee for the next shot.
Double boiler are a convenience, not a necessity for home espresso machines.
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You want two boilers, and regulated, easily-modulated temps at the group.
PID'd SB/DU machines (Silvia, Gaggia, Solis) are sufficient for home users.
Pull a shot, flip the steam switch; get the milk, pour it into the pitcher, and by that time the boiler is at steaming temp.
If you want to pull another shot right away, pull fresh water through the steam wand until the boiler temp has dropped to ~195°F, and let it set for a few seconds for the PID to stabilize the brew temp.
While waiting for the brew temp to stabilize, grind and tamp the coffee for the next shot.
Double boiler are a convenience, not a necessity for home espresso machines.
In my less then expert opinion SB/DU machines are a PITA. Fine if that's all your budget can stand but inconvenient and most of all never as temperature reliable or stable as other machines. They don't ever measure temperature of water delivered at the grouphead. When environmental temperatures in the room fluctuate then so does the water temperature whether you have a PID or not! At least an e61 group has enough mass to be MUCH more thermally stable and will fluctuate with room temps much less. With low end SB/DU (Gaggia and Sylvia) you need to PID the room its in more then the machine. >:D Candidly, there is no comparison between prosumer machines and home machines as far as ability to consistently make excellent espresso.
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The PID on the Ascaso looks a lot like the one on the Alex II which is a Gicar.
OK, it appears the consensus next step up for the home user from a PID'd Silvia (no Y) or Gaggia would be a DB Machine? The choices "boil" down to Vivaldi II, Alex Duetto II, Expobar Brewtus, Vibiemme Domobar.
Others?
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You want two boilers, and regulated, easily-modulated temps at the group.
PID'd SB/DU machines (Silvia, Gaggia, Solis) are sufficient for home users.
Pull a shot, flip the steam switch; get the milk, pour it into the pitcher, and by that time the boiler is at steaming temp.
If you want to pull another shot right away, pull fresh water through the steam wand until the boiler temp has dropped to ~195°F, and let it set for a few seconds for the PID to stabilize the brew temp.
While waiting for the brew temp to stabilize, grind and tamp the coffee for the next shot.
Double boiler are a convenience, not a necessity for home espresso machines.
In my less then expert opinion SB/DU machines are a PITA. Fine if that's all your budget can stand but inconvenient and most of all never as temperature reliable or stable as other machines. They don't ever measure temperature of water delivered at the grouphead. When environmental temperatures in the room fluctuate then so does the water temperature whether you have a PID or not! At least an e61 group has enough mass to be MUCH more thermally stable and will fluctuate with room temps much less. With low end SB/DU (Gaggia and Sylvia) you need to PID the room its in more then the machine. >:D Candidly, there is no comparison between prosumer machines and home machines as far as ability to consistently make excellent espresso.
Then it's too bad you've never used a SB/DU machine that's been properly set up. Where do you get your info? Environmental conditions affecting a shots temperature? And an E61 group's thermo-siphon is not more efficient at controlling group temps than the Gaggia design.
Candidly, there's no point listening to someone comparing machines when they don't know what the heck they're talking about. Please stop confusing folks with this sort of babble!
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I had intended to put in the link for the Ascaso on 1st line: http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/ascaso/ascaso_steel_uno_prof_pid.htm (http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/ascaso/ascaso_steel_uno_prof_pid.htm)
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You want two boilers, and regulated, easily-modulated temps at the group.
PID'd SB/DU machines (Silvia, Gaggia, Solis) are sufficient for home users.
Pull a shot, flip the steam switch; get the milk, pour it into the pitcher, and by that time the boiler is at steaming temp.
If you want to pull another shot right away, pull fresh water through the steam wand until the boiler temp has dropped to ~195°F, and let it set for a few seconds for the PID to stabilize the brew temp.
While waiting for the brew temp to stabilize, grind and tamp the coffee for the next shot.
Double boiler are a convenience, not a necessity for home espresso machines.
In my less then expert opinion SB/DU machines are a PITA. Fine if that's all your budget can stand but inconvenient and most of all never as temperature reliable or stable as other machines. They don't ever measure temperature of water delivered at the grouphead. When environmental temperatures in the room fluctuate then so does the water temperature whether you have a PID or not! At least an e61 group has enough mass to be MUCH more thermally stable and will fluctuate with room temps much less. With low end SB/DU (Gaggia and Sylvia) you need to PID the room its in more then the machine. >:D Candidly, there is no comparison between prosumer machines and home machines as far as ability to consistently make excellent espresso.
Then it's too bad you've never used a SB/DU machine that's been properly set up. Where do you get your info? Environmental conditions affecting a shots temperature? And an E61 group's thermo-siphon is not more efficient at controlling group temps than the Gaggia design.
Candidly, there's no point listening to someone comparing machines when they don't know what the heck they're talking about. Please stop confusing folks with this sort of babble!
It's not babble - simply fact! It doesn't matter how you tune or set up a machine that can't have good thermal stability due to small boiler and low overall mass to hold temperatures steady. It's physics and thermodynamics. I won't knock a SB/DU machine if that's all you can afford. I've had good shots but it's VERY difficult to do so day to day and consistently. If you disagree then fine but that''s my (admittedly limited) experience.
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You want two boilers, and regulated, easily-modulated temps at the group.
PID'd SB/DU machines (Silvia, Gaggia, Solis) are sufficient for home users.
Pull a shot, flip the steam switch; get the milk, pour it into the pitcher, and by that time the boiler is at steaming temp.
If you want to pull another shot right away, pull fresh water through the steam wand until the boiler temp has dropped to ~195°F, and let it set for a few seconds for the PID to stabilize the brew temp.
While waiting for the brew temp to stabilize, grind and tamp the coffee for the next shot.
Double boiler are a convenience, not a necessity for home espresso machines.
In my less then expert opinion SB/DU machines are a PITA. Fine if that's all your budget can stand but inconvenient and most of all never as temperature reliable or stable as other machines. They don't ever measure temperature of water delivered at the grouphead. When environmental temperatures in the room fluctuate then so does the water temperature whether you have a PID or not! At least an e61 group has enough mass to be MUCH more thermally stable and will fluctuate with room temps much less. With low end SB/DU (Gaggia and Sylvia) you need to PID the room its in more then the machine. >:D Candidly, there is no comparison between prosumer machines and home machines as far as ability to consistently make excellent espresso.
Then it's too bad you've never used a SB/DU machine that's been properly set up. Where do you get your info? Environmental conditions affecting a shots temperature? And an E61 group's thermo-siphon is not more efficient at controlling group temps than the Gaggia design.
Candidly, there's no point listening to someone comparing machines when they don't know what the heck they're talking about. Please stop confusing folks with this sort of babble!
It's not babble - simply fact! It doesn't matter how you tune or set up a machine that can't have good thermal stability due to small boiler and low overall mass to hold temperatures steady. It's physics and thermodynamics. I won't knock a SB/DU machine if that's all you can afford. I've had good shotsas but it's VERY difficult to do so day to day and consistently. If you disagree then fine but that''s my (admittedly limited) experience.
Your lack of knowledge should be taken into consideration by anyone looking for machine advice.
How does Jim's statement equate to what you're saying? (http://www.home-barista.com/advice/recommendations-lever-versus-e61-espresso-machine-t14142.html#p169375)
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You want two boilers, and regulated, easily-modulated temps at the group.
PID'd SB/DU machines (Silvia, Gaggia, Solis) are sufficient for home users.
Pull a shot, flip the steam switch; get the milk, pour it into the pitcher, and by that time the boiler is at steaming temp.
If you want to pull another shot right away, pull fresh water through the steam wand until the boiler temp has dropped to ~195°F, and let it set for a few seconds for the PID to stabilize the brew temp.
While waiting for the brew temp to stabilize, grind and tamp the coffee for the next shot.
Double boiler are a convenience, not a necessity for home espresso machines.
In my less then expert opinion SB/DU machines are a PITA. Fine if that's all your budget can stand but inconvenient and most of all never as temperature reliable or stable as other machines. They don't ever measure temperature of water delivered at the grouphead. When environmental temperatures in the room fluctuate then so does the water temperature whether you have a PID or not! At least an e61 group has enough mass to be MUCH more thermally stable and will fluctuate with room temps much less. With low end SB/DU (Gaggia and Sylvia) you need to PID the room its in more then the machine. >:D Candidly, there is no comparison between prosumer machines and home machines as far as ability to consistently make excellent espresso.
Then it's too bad you've never used a SB/DU machine that's been properly set up. Where do you get your info? Environmental conditions affecting a shots temperature? And an E61 group's thermo-siphon is not more efficient at controlling group temps than the Gaggia design.
Candidly, there's no point listening to someone comparing machines when they don't know what the heck they're talking about. Please stop confusing folks with this sort of babble!
It's not babble - simply fact! It doesn't matter how you tune or set up a machine that can't have good thermal stability due to small boiler and low overall mass to hold temperatures steady. It's physics and thermodynamics. I won't knock a SB/DU machine if that's all you can afford. I've had good shotsas but it's VERY difficult to do so day to day and consistently. If you disagree then fine but that''s my (admittedly limited) experience.
Your lack of knowledge should be taken into consideration by anyone looking for machine advice.
How does Jim's statement equate to what you're saying? ([url]http://www.home-barista.com/advice/recommendations-lever-versus-e61-espresso-machine-t14142.html#p169375[/url])
That's TOTAL BS on your part. Jim's statement means that without a grinder you can't make good espresso. Period. It says NOTHING about the ability of a SB/DU low end home machine to make CONSISTENTLY good espresso.
Set you PID to a temperature and pull shots at equilibrium with a room temperature of 75*. Next day using the same PID setting at equilibrium with a room temperature of 65* and the extraction temperature will vary considerably from the previous day. That's just one of several variables that will be less then optimal with a SB/DU like Sylvia or Gaggia. Much more so then a prosumer machine with larger thermal mass. I think you're totally biased and wrong.
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You want two boilers, and regulated, easily-modulated temps at the group.
PID'd SB/DU machines (Silvia, Gaggia, Solis) are sufficient for home users.
Pull a shot, flip the steam switch; get the milk, pour it into the pitcher, and by that time the boiler is at steaming temp.
If you want to pull another shot right away, pull fresh water through the steam wand until the boiler temp has dropped to ~195°F, and let it set for a few seconds for the PID to stabilize the brew temp.
While waiting for the brew temp to stabilize, grind and tamp the coffee for the next shot.
Double boiler are a convenience, not a necessity for home espresso machines.
In my less then expert opinion SB/DU machines are a PITA. Fine if that's all your budget can stand but inconvenient and most of all never as temperature reliable or stable as other machines. They don't ever measure temperature of water delivered at the grouphead. When environmental temperatures in the room fluctuate then so does the water temperature whether you have a PID or not! At least an e61 group has enough mass to be MUCH more thermally stable and will fluctuate with room temps much less. With low end SB/DU (Gaggia and Sylvia) you need to PID the room its in more then the machine. >:D Candidly, there is no comparison between prosumer machines and home machines as far as ability to consistently make excellent espresso.
Then it's too bad you've never used a SB/DU machine that's been properly set up. Where do you get your info? Environmental conditions affecting a shots temperature? And an E61 group's thermo-siphon is not more efficient at controlling group temps than the Gaggia design.
Candidly, there's no point listening to someone comparing machines when they don't know what the heck they're talking about. Please stop confusing folks with this sort of babble!
It's not babble - simply fact! It doesn't matter how you tune or set up a machine that can't have good thermal stability due to small boiler and low overall mass to hold temperatures steady. It's physics and thermodynamics. I won't knock a SB/DU machine if that's all you can afford. I've had good shotsas but it's VERY difficult to do so day to day and consistently. If you disagree then fine but that''s my (admittedly limited) experience.
Your lack of knowledge should be taken into consideration by anyone looking for machine advice.
How does Jim's statement equate to what you're saying? ([url]http://www.home-barista.com/advice/recommendations-lever-versus-e61-espresso-machine-t14142.html#p169375[/url])
That's TOTAL BS on your part. Jim's statement means that without a grinder you can't make good espresso. Period. It says NOTHING about the ability of a SB/DU low end home machine to make CONSISTENTLY good espresso.
Set you PID to a temperature and pull shots at equilibrium with a room temperature of 75*. Next day using the same PID setting at ewquilibrium with a room temperature of 65* and the extraction temperature will vary considerably from the previous day. Much more so then a prosumer machine with larger thermal mass. I think you're totally biased and wrong.
I won't respond to your posts and I'd appreciate it if you'd return the favor?
-
You want two boilers, and regulated, easily-modulated temps at the group.
PID'd SB/DU machines (Silvia, Gaggia, Solis) are sufficient for home users.
Pull a shot, flip the steam switch; get the milk, pour it into the pitcher, and by that time the boiler is at steaming temp.
If you want to pull another shot right away, pull fresh water through the steam wand until the boiler temp has dropped to ~195°F, and let it set for a few seconds for the PID to stabilize the brew temp.
While waiting for the brew temp to stabilize, grind and tamp the coffee for the next shot.
Double boiler are a convenience, not a necessity for home espresso machines.
In my less then expert opinion SB/DU machines are a PITA. Fine if that's all your budget can stand but inconvenient and most of all never as temperature reliable or stable as other machines. They don't ever measure temperature of water delivered at the grouphead. When environmental temperatures in the room fluctuate then so does the water temperature whether you have a PID or not! At least an e61 group has enough mass to be MUCH more thermally stable and will fluctuate with room temps much less. With low end SB/DU (Gaggia and Sylvia) you need to PID the room its in more then the machine. >:D Candidly, there is no comparison between prosumer machines and home machines as far as ability to consistently make excellent espresso.
Then it's too bad you've never used a SB/DU machine that's been properly set up. Where do you get your info? Environmental conditions affecting a shots temperature? And an E61 group's thermo-siphon is not more efficient at controlling group temps than the Gaggia design.
Candidly, there's no point listening to someone comparing machines when they don't know what the heck they're talking about. Please stop confusing folks with this sort of babble!
It's not babble - simply fact! It doesn't matter how you tune or set up a machine that can't have good thermal stability due to small boiler and low overall mass to hold temperatures steady. It's physics and thermodynamics. I won't knock a SB/DU machine if that's all you can afford. I've had good shotsas but it's VERY difficult to do so day to day and consistently. If you disagree then fine but that''s my (admittedly limited) experience.
Your lack of knowledge should be taken into consideration by anyone looking for machine advice.
How does Jim's statement equate to what you're saying? ([url]http://www.home-barista.com/advice/recommendations-lever-versus-e61-espresso-machine-t14142.html#p169375[/url])
That's TOTAL BS on your part. Jim's statement means that without a grinder you can't make good espresso. Period. It says NOTHING about the ability of a SB/DU low end home machine to make CONSISTENTLY good espresso.
Set you PID to a temperature and pull shots at equilibrium with a room temperature of 75*. Next day using the same PID setting at ewquilibrium with a room temperature of 65* and the extraction temperature will vary considerably from the previous day. Much more so then a prosumer machine with larger thermal mass. I think you're totally biased and wrong.
I won't respond to your posts and I'd appreciate it if you'd return the favor?
Good answer Dude. What's the title of the thread you started?
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Oh dear ... a sure fire route to the hot topics section.
::)
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Oh dear ... a sure fire route to the hot topics section.
::)
Nope - I'm trying to avoid that.
-
Then it's too bad you've never used a SB/DU machine that's been properly set up. Where do you get your info? Environmental conditions affecting a shots temperature? And an E61 group's thermo-siphon is not more efficient at controlling group temps than the Gaggia design.
Candidly, there's no point listening to someone comparing machines when they don't know what the heck they're talking about. Please stop confusing folks with this sort of babble!
Your very own words confirm what CG7 said about convenience Tex. The routine you have to run through to approximate the correct brew temp is laughable.
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Then it's too bad you've never used a SB/DU machine that's been properly set up. Where do you get your info? Environmental conditions affecting a shots temperature? And an E61 group's thermo-siphon is not more efficient at controlling group temps than the Gaggia design.
Candidly, there's no point listening to someone comparing machines when they don't know what the heck they're talking about. Please stop confusing folks with this sort of babble!
Your very own words confirm what CG7 said about convenience Tex. The routine you have to run through to approximate the correct brew temp is laughable.
There's no difference between what I outlined and what anyone does with any machine. There's no idle waiting involved - in the time it takes the boiler temp to stabilize I do other things that have to be done anyway.
Or do you have a robot that heads to the fridge for you to get the milk; or maybe you just lay the portafilter on the counter and it crawls over the the grinder by itself to get refilled? I've just managed my routine to the point where everything happens when it needs to happen.
You want convenience get a super-auto.
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Here's my opinion (I learned that qualifier from you ;D );
You like the challenge of getting what you consider a great shot, while spending less. That's commendable, and in many areas I'm the same way. But your rhetoric and dogma for low-end/mid-range machines has become a religion you preach, and it blinds you from thinking freely.
You should have titled the thread differently, again in my opinion; "Don't spend lots of money- I, the Great Tex, can show you how to mimic a great machine for a third the money."
-
Here's my opinion (I learned that qualifier from you ;D );
You like the challenge of getting what you consider a great shot, while spending less. That's commendable, and in many areas I'm the same way. But your rhetoric and dogma for low-end/mid-range machines has become a religion you preach, and it blinds you from thinking freely.
You should have titled the thread differently, again in my opinion; "Don't spend lots of money- I, the Great Tex, can show you how to mimic a great machine for a third the money."
And what I hear from you and GC7 is, "Don't bother with SB/DU machines, they can't do as good a job as a $2500 prosumer machine. Buy a more expensive machine from the outset and be happy" That does go against my frugal nature.
I write from a position of having used and rebuilt dozens hundreds of different machines; SB/DU consumer machines, HX & double boiler prosumer machines, HX, double boiler, lever operated, and even the oddball hydraulic espresso machine.
Other than a convenience factor of the double boiler machines (only applicable if you make many milk based drinks), and the inconvenience of cooling flushes in HX machines (only a problem if not in frequent use), I can report that every machine I've used could make good espresso drinks.
Some were a pain to use - The Cimbali hydraulic group machine was a leaker; I could never get all the o-rings and gaskets sealed. Some were literally a real pain to use - The Rancilio lever machine I worked on irritated my arthritic shoulder enough to convince me that a lever machine would never be my go to device.
Bottom line for me: Any machine capable of being tuned for proper brew temp and brew pressure is capable of making great espresso. The limiting factor is more the operators skill level than the machine's capabilities. My goal is to ensure that SB/DU machines get a fair shake instead of being looked down on by espresso snobs.
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Here's my opinion (I learned that qualifier from you ;D );
You like the challenge of getting what you consider a great shot, while spending less. That's commendable, and in many areas I'm the same way. But your rhetoric and dogma for low-end/mid-range machines has become a religion you preach, and it blinds you from thinking freely.
You should have titled the thread differently, again in my opinion; "Don't spend lots of money- I, the Great Tex, can show you how to mimic a great machine for a third the money."
BWAAHAHAHAHAHAH!
Now that is funny. I don't mean anything more by my reaction ... just that when I read this I burst out laughing.
;D
-
There is NOTHING WRONG with a SB/DU machine. However, if you are comfortable spending more then you will in fact get more both in performance and in convenience. I harbor no snob-factor against anyone who can’t or won’t spend more then it costs to buy a Sylvia or a Gaggia.
Can you leave your machine on 24/7? To some that’s important as a convenience.
Can it be put on a timer so you can roll out of bed and make a shot? Some don’t want to wake up an hour earlier than necessary.
These are two additional features that you may or may not wish to pay extra. It’s up to the consumer.
Just get accurate facts out there for people to select without EXAGGERATION.
-
There is NOTHING WRONG with a SB/DU machine. However, if you are comfortable spending more then you will in fact get more both in performance and in convenience. I harbor no snob-factor against anyone who can’t or won’t spend more then it costs to buy a Sylvia or a Gaggia.
Can you leave your machine on 24/7? To some that’s important as a convenience.
Can it be put on a timer so you can roll out of bed and make a shot? Some don’t want to wake up an hour earlier than necessary.
These are two additional features that you may or may not wish to pay extra. It’s up to the consumer.
Just get accurate facts out there for people to select without EXAGGERATION.
It's actually NOT a good idea to leave any machine on 24/7 and unattended. Ever seen a plumbed-in machine flood a shop. I have, twice. But I have both my Gaggia Classic & Bunn ES-1A HX machine on 20 amp timers. If I didn't have them on timers, either machine will go from room temp to brew temp in less than 30 minutes.
Honestly, what set me off against you was this post: http://www.greencoffeebuyingclub.com/index.php?topic=9507.msg148838#msg148838 (http://www.greencoffeebuyingclub.com/index.php?topic=9507.msg148838#msg148838)
Your statement that SB/DU machines are incapable of temp stability and that environmental temperatures somehow affect shot quality showed you to be totally ignorant of espresso as a process and of having no knowledge off the machines. Your statement, "Candidly, there is no comparison between prosumer machines and home machines as far as ability to consistently make excellent espresso.", is so far from the truth that I just threw up my hands in disgust!
-
Here's my opinion (I learned that qualifier from you ;D );
You like the challenge of getting what you consider a great shot, while spending less. That's commendable, and in many areas I'm the same way. But your rhetoric and dogma for low-end/mid-range machines has become a religion you preach, and it blinds you from thinking freely.
You should have titled the thread differently, again in my opinion; "Don't spend lots of money- I, the Great Tex, can show you how to mimic a great machine for a third the money."
BWAAHAHAHAHAHAH!
Now that is funny. I don't mean anything more by my reaction ... just that when I read this I burst out laughing.
;D
Sure, go ahead and TRY to stay out of the line of fire. You dual boiler elitest trying to suppress the proletarian SB/DU masses yearning to escape the yoke of espresso snobism.
I, for one, am trying to grock this whole process.
Both "sides" seem to agree that the next worthwhile step after your PID'd Silvia/Gaggia Classic is to get a double boiler - a sizable leap in cost.
Is it more important than the heavier group head?
-
Here's my opinion (I learned that qualifier from you ;D );
You like the challenge of getting what you consider a great shot, while spending less. That's commendable, and in many areas I'm the same way. But your rhetoric and dogma for low-end/mid-range machines has become a religion you preach, and it blinds you from thinking freely.
You should have titled the thread differently, again in my opinion; "Don't spend lots of money- I, the Great Tex, can show you how to mimic a great machine for a third the money."
BWAAHAHAHAHAHAH!
Now that is funny. I don't mean anything more by my reaction ... just that when I read this I burst out laughing.
;D
Sure, go ahead and TRY to stay out of the line of fire. You dual boiler elitest trying to suppress the proletarian SB/DU masses yearning to escape the yoke of espresso snobism.
I, for one, am trying to grock this whole process.
Both "sides" seem to agree that the next worthwhile step after your PID'd Silvia/Gaggia Classic is to get a double boiler - a sizable leap in cost.
Is it more important than the heavier group head?
My only point was if you are looking at spending $1350 on a HX machine then why not $1635 on a double boiler machine which dedicates a boiler to the brewing stability and a boiler to the steaming stability.
Good value IMHO.
:)
-
Here's my opinion (I learned that qualifier from you ;D );
You like the challenge of getting what you consider a great shot, while spending less. That's commendable, and in many areas I'm the same way. But your rhetoric and dogma for low-end/mid-range machines has become a religion you preach, and it blinds you from thinking freely.
You should have titled the thread differently, again in my opinion; "Don't spend lots of money- I, the Great Tex, can show you how to mimic a great machine for a third the money."
BWAAHAHAHAHAHAH!
Now that is funny. I don't mean anything more by my reaction ... just that when I read this I burst out laughing.
;D
Sure, go ahead and TRY to stay out of the line of fire. You dual boiler elitest trying to suppress the proletarian SB/DU masses yearning to escape the yoke of espresso snobism.
I, for one, am trying to grock this whole process.
Both "sides" seem to agree that the next worthwhile step after your PID'd Silvia/Gaggia Classic is to get a double boiler - a sizable leap in cost.
Is it more important than the heavier group head?
In fact ... if it wasn't for the dry spell of machines coming at the time I was looking and the fact that you had to plumb it in (direct water source or 5 gallon water bottle) Robert had me convinced that the Bunn ES-1A was a great machine of Industrial capability at a great price with parts readily available and fairly cheap.
I still liked the idea of a pour over water replenishment so I went prosumer HX and got an Isomac Tea ll.
I picked it up for $730 US dollars delivered just as the Vibiemme double boiler machines were announced that availability would be imminent.
If I was jumping in at this juncture and I had the mula ... it would be on a Vibiemme.
My 2 cents.
:o
-
Here's my opinion (I learned that qualifier from you ;D );
You like the challenge of getting what you consider a great shot, while spending less. That's commendable, and in many areas I'm the same way. But your rhetoric and dogma for low-end/mid-range machines has become a religion you preach, and it blinds you from thinking freely.
You should have titled the thread differently, again in my opinion; "Don't spend lots of money- I, the Great Tex, can show you how to mimic a great machine for a third the money."
BWAAHAHAHAHAHAH!
Now that is funny. I don't mean anything more by my reaction ... just that when I read this I burst out laughing.
;D
Sure, go ahead and TRY to stay out of the line of fire. You dual boiler elitest trying to suppress the proletarian SB/DU masses yearning to escape the yoke of espresso snobism.
I, for one, am trying to grock this whole process.
Both "sides" seem to agree that the next worthwhile step after your PID'd Silvia/Gaggia Classic is to get a double boiler - a sizable leap in cost.
Is it more important than the heavier group head?
There are other SB/DU machines that I'd place in between the Silvia/Classic and the VII/Vibiemme/Brewtus. I'd look for a prosumer machines with a large boiler (1 liter min & insulated), PID control. s/s chassis, 58mm saturated/thermo-siphon group, and a few other things.
I wouldn't recommend an HX machine to anyone other than an experienced user - even though I've talked a lot of folks into buying the Bunn ES-1A, for the most part they'd all cut their teeth on consumer machines.
-
Here's my opinion (I learned that qualifier from you ;D );
You like the challenge of getting what you consider a great shot, while spending less. That's commendable, and in many areas I'm the same way. But your rhetoric and dogma for low-end/mid-range machines has become a religion you preach, and it blinds you from thinking freely.
You should have titled the thread differently, again in my opinion; "Don't spend lots of money- I, the Great Tex, can show you how to mimic a great machine for a third the money."
BWAAHAHAHAHAHAH!
Now that is funny. I don't mean anything more by my reaction ... just that when I read this I burst out laughing.
;D
Sure, go ahead and TRY to stay out of the line of fire. You dual boiler elitest trying to suppress the proletarian SB/DU masses yearning to escape the yoke of espresso snobism.
I, for one, am trying to grock this whole process.
Both "sides" seem to agree that the next worthwhile step after your PID'd Silvia/Gaggia Classic is to get a double boiler - a sizable leap in cost.
Is it more important than the heavier group head?
In fact ... if it wasn't for the dry spell of machines coming at the time I was looking and the fact that you had to plumb it in (direct water source or 5 gallon water bottle) Robert had me convinced that the Bunn ES-1A was a great machine of Industrial capability at a great price with parts readily available and fairly cheap.
I still liked the idea of a pour over water replenishment so I went prosumer HX and got an Isomac Tea ll.
I picked it up for $730 US dollars delivered just as the Vibiemme double boiler machines were announced that availability would be imminent.
If I was jumping in at this juncture and I had the mula ... it would be on a Vibiemme.
My 2 cents.
:o
Yeah, I recall the exchange of messages Mike. We had you ready to jump on the next Bunn that came along -- but that was one of those times when none were on the market for months. Your Tea is a good machine for you, the double boilers would just be different, not necessarily an improvement.
Don't let the upgradeitus bug get too firm a grip on you!
-
There is NOTHING WRONG with a SB/DU machine. However, if you are comfortable spending more then you will in fact get more both in performance and in convenience. I harbor no snob-factor against anyone who can’t or won’t spend more then it costs to buy a Sylvia or a Gaggia.
Can you leave your machine on 24/7? To some that’s important as a convenience.
Can it be put on a timer so you can roll out of bed and make a shot? Some don’t want to wake up an hour earlier than necessary.
These are two additional features that you may or may not wish to pay extra. It’s up to the consumer.
Just get accurate facts out there for people to select without EXAGGERATION.
It's actually NOT a good idea to leave any machine on 24/7 and unattended. Ever seen a plumbed-in machine flood a shop. I have, twice. But I have both my Gaggia Classic & Bunn ES-1A HX machine on 20 amp timers. If I didn't have them on timers, either machine will go from room temp to brew temp in less than 30 minutes.
Honestly, what set me off against you was this post: [url]http://www.greencoffeebuyingclub.com/index.php?topic=9507.msg148838#msg148838[/url] ([url]http://www.greencoffeebuyingclub.com/index.php?topic=9507.msg148838#msg148838[/url])
Your statement that SB/DU machines are incapable of temp stability and that environmental temperatures somehow affect shot quality showed you to be totally ignorant of espresso as a process and of having no knowledge off the machines. Your statement, "Candidly, there is no comparison between prosumer machines and home machines as far as ability to consistently make excellent espresso.", is so far from the truth that I just threw up my hands in disgust!
I thought you were not going to reply to my posts! That didn’t last long.
You have your opinion. I think/KNOW that you are wrong. Just because you say the above does not make it correct and I fully believe every word that I wrote. People can believe what they want and you can continue to exaggerate the capabilities of home espresso SB/DU machines. I believe my viewpoint is both more balanced and believable. The laws of thermodynamics still apply to espresso machines regardless of what you write about the capabilities of your machine.
-
Here's my opinion (I learned that qualifier from you ;D );
You like the challenge of getting what you consider a great shot, while spending less. That's commendable, and in many areas I'm the same way. But your rhetoric and dogma for low-end/mid-range machines has become a religion you preach, and it blinds you from thinking freely.
You should have titled the thread differently, again in my opinion; "Don't spend lots of money- I, the Great Tex, can show you how to mimic a great machine for a third the money."
BWAAHAHAHAHAHAH!
Now that is funny. I don't mean anything more by my reaction ... just that when I read this I burst out laughing.
;D
Sure, go ahead and TRY to stay out of the line of fire. You dual boiler elitest trying to suppress the proletarian SB/DU masses yearning to escape the yoke of espresso snobism.
I, for one, am trying to grock this whole process.
Both "sides" seem to agree that the next worthwhile step after your PID'd Silvia/Gaggia Classic is to get a double boiler - a sizable leap in cost.
Is it more important than the heavier group head?
In fact ... if it wasn't for the dry spell of machines coming at the time I was looking and the fact that you had to plumb it in (direct water source or 5 gallon water bottle) Robert had me convinced that the Bunn ES-1A was a great machine of Industrial capability at a great price with parts readily available and fairly cheap.
I still liked the idea of a pour over water replenishment so I went prosumer HX and got an Isomac Tea ll.
I picked it up for $730 US dollars delivered just as the Vibiemme double boiler machines were announced that availability would be imminent.
If I was jumping in at this juncture and I had the mula ... it would be on a Vibiemme.
My 2 cents.
:o
Yeah, I recall the exchange of messages Mike. We had you ready to jump on the next Bunn that came along -- but that was one of those times when none were on the market for months. Your Tea is a good machine for you, the double boilers would just be different, not necessarily an improvement.
Don't let the upgradeitus bug get too firm a grip on you!
Nah ... truthfully ... the Tea ll is a very nice machine. I am pulling the best espresso shots I ever had with it ... and don't even have a PID on it.
:o
It steams like a choo choo train ... and now I am getting the technique of the micro foam for the coveted frou frou drinks.
Man ... life doesn't get any better.
;)
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so, why not slap a PID on this? >:D
http://www.wholelattelove.com/KitchenAid/proline.cfm?ConID=1#anchor (http://www.wholelattelove.com/KitchenAid/proline.cfm?ConID=1#anchor)
Made by Gaggia.
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so, why not slap a PID on this? >:D
[url]http://www.wholelattelove.com/KitchenAid/proline.cfm?ConID=1#anchor[/url] ([url]http://www.wholelattelove.com/KitchenAid/proline.cfm?ConID=1#anchor[/url])
Made by Gaggia.
We have owners of the Proline in the Gaggia group who swear by them. To me, they're a bit pricey for what you get and frankly, I've always been turned off by their looks.
I can't recall, have you ever defined what your needs will be? Mostly espresso or lots of milk drinks? Occasional use or high use/entertaining? Do you want pour over or plumbed. Do you want a plug & play machine or do you want one needing rebuilding?
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Well, just learning about espresso and trying to figure out what those needs might be.
I guess the implication is that this one works and isn't too far.
http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/app/1780472723.html (http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/app/1780472723.html)
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Well, just learning about espresso and trying to figure out what those needs might be.
I guess the implication is that this one works and isn't too far.
[url]http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/app/1780472723.html[/url] ([url]http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/app/1780472723.html[/url])
You heading over to pick it up?
???
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Well, just learning about espresso and trying to figure out what those needs might be.
I guess the implication is that this one works and isn't too far.
[url]http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/app/1780472723.html[/url] ([url]http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/app/1780472723.html[/url])
Do you have room for that monster, and a 220V outlet? Unless you're more of a party animal than I thought, do you need a 2-group machine?
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I figured if peter could be a Spaz, so could I. ;D
-
Both "sides" seem to agree that the next worthwhile step after your PID'd Silvia/Gaggia Classic is to get a double boiler - a sizable leap in cost.
Is it more important than the heavier group head?
Depends.
The only reason for the second boiler is to steam milk the second the shot is pulled (people always say at the same time but whatever)...
If you are not making milk drinks the group is obviously more important and if you are making lots of milk drinks both are important.
This long standing argument of pimped lessor machines vs. the better machines is never going to end. My simple answer is that the only advantage to "doing more with less" is saving $. I've been doing it for years and I am not in love with it one bit. :-\ Is it possible? Yes, of course it is. If you put in the work you can can do it but it's going to be harder.
The flip side is that I think lots of people buy a better machine and rely on the purchase to deliver the goods. They do not put in the work for great shots and therefore never realize the potential of what they have.
What is better working harder with less and meeting a mechanical limitation or purchasing more mechanical advantage than you will use?
Answer: buy more than you can use and then work like hell to the limitation.....how many people do that ya think?
-
Both "sides" seem to agree that the next worthwhile step after your PID'd Silvia/Gaggia Classic is to get a double boiler - a sizable leap in cost.
Is it more important than the heavier group head?
Depends.
The only reason for the second boiler is to steam milk the second the shot is pulled (people always say at the same time but whatever)...
If you are not making milk drinks the group is obviously more important and if you are making lots of milk drinks both are important.
This long standing argument of pimped lessor machines vs. the better machines is never going to end. My simple answer is that the only advantage to "doing more with less" is saving $. I've been doing it for years and I am not in love with it one bit. :-\ Is it possible? Yes, of course it is. If you put in the work you can can do it but it's going to be harder.
The flip side is that I think lots of people buy a better machine and rely on the purchase to deliver the goods. They do not put in the work for great shots and therefore never realize the potential of what they have.
What is better working harder with less and meeting a mechanical limitation or purchasing more mechanical advantage than you will use?
Answer: buy more than you can use and then work like hell to the limitation.....how many people do that ya think?
To answer that I think you would have to check out the bank book of the person in question.
:-X
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Haha, since I last looked at this thread it has classically disintegrated into divided camps via some kind of misplaced labels - 'The wasteful have too much money crowd' and the 'You can do everything with a stick of gum, a piece of tinfoil and a steam wand crowd'.
HX, DB, MP, or ec2... whatever the acronym, design features or color of the machine, at some point the machine has to offer the following:
- Predictable repeatability.
- That repeatability has to remain within an acceptable standard of deviation in order to produce consistent espresso.
- If you do milk it has to be capable of great microfoam.
- If you entertain or do back to back to back testing of blends and SO shots it has to be capable of multiple shots standardized in a small time frame.
Nice to have's:
- Some form of reliable gauge or LCD feedback is convenient.
- Ability to use easily available digital or analogue adjustment (with gauge or LCD feedback) providing opportunity for rapid changes to temps or pressures in order to run test cases against several shots in just a few minutes.
A machine that allows me to do 10 shots in less than 20 mins, provides acceptable standardization and allows rapid and precise adjustability is ok in my books. If a house brick costing $2.75 did all of that I would be happy with a house brick. If it required a glowing sphere of light hovering near the toaster that cost me $2500 I would pay it.
-
Well, just learning about espresso and trying to figure out what those needs might be.
I guess the implication is that this one works and isn't too far.
[url]http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/app/1780472723.html[/url] ([url]http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/app/1780472723.html[/url])
You might want to look into one of these two as well!
This one is a single group commercial Reneka for $250. . . It is probably 8-10 years old, but they say they cleaned it and these cost $3k new.
http://chicago.craigslist.org/nch/app/1777015591.html (http://chicago.craigslist.org/nch/app/1777015591.html)
This one is a 2-group Astoria Semi-Auto Commercial machine that they are asking $750 obo, if you want a 2-group.
http://chicago.craigslist.org/sox/bfs/1780874630.html (http://chicago.craigslist.org/sox/bfs/1780874630.html)
You could have some serious fun with that Reneka, and at that price you would have more money for accessories!
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'The wasteful have too much money crowd' and the 'You can do everything with a stick of gum, a piece of tinfoil and a steam wand crowd'.
I see it slightly different.
I think there is a % of buying in to whatever equipment people choose and then justification towards their choices/decisions.
If I go out and spend what is a large amount of money for me I can't really tell you my shots are garbage without feeling silly. If I can't buy as much machine as you it might make me feel better to tell you my shots are every bit as good as yours.
Personally I have problems with both of those themes because they are both so un-espresso. :-\
But this argument is destined to go forever.
I've tried in a zillion threads to explain possibilities, expectations, (perceived results vs. actual) potentials, required workloads/effort on lessor machines, and loads of other stuff to try and keep it real because in truth you can't do everything with tinfoil and gum....just like you can't plunk down $2K and pull great shots based on your purchase price....
But great shots are possible on lessor machines and some people have over purchased beyond anything they will ever access.
But yeah, also what you said. ;D
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John F and staylor = thread killers. Now that the troof is out there, how can we have any more fun lobbing grenades? ;D
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Now that the troof is out there, how can we have any more fun lobbing grenades? ;D
Easy, ignore it and move "forward". ;D
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we could argue about this machine:
http://fwd4.me/Sc1 (http://fwd4.me/Sc1)
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we could argue about this machine:
[url]http://fwd4.me/Sc1[/url] ([url]http://fwd4.me/Sc1[/url])
I'm afraid to send that kind of money to a foreign vendor.
What would happen if you simply bought a Alex Duetto II? I mean what's the worst that could happen?
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'The wasteful have too much money crowd' and the 'You can do everything with a stick of gum, a piece of tinfoil and a steam wand crowd'.
I see it slightly different.
I think there is a % of buying in to whatever equipment people choose and then justification towards their choices/decisions.
If I go out and spend what is a large amount of money for me I can't really tell you my shots are garbage without feeling silly. If I can't buy as much machine as you it might make me feel better to tell you my shots are every bit as good as yours.
snipped
There's always that argument, and I'd even buy into it except it doesn't take into account the varying levels of experience of those making claims. What you say is usually attributable to inexperienced users, who've either bought more than they can use or to those who're jealous of the purchases of others.
But what about folks who've been at this long enough to make a recommendation based entirely on their experiences? I've been playing at espresso for a handful of decades, using many different machines, sometimes coming back to a machine after a few years with an entirely different perspective.
I like double boilers! The first one I played with was the La Marzocco owned by a local service club. I agreed to rebuild it for them in exchange for some antiques they had that Mrs T wanted. It was the heaviest machine I've worked on to date, and it made great coffee after I rebuilt it (the frou-frou wasn't so good - my fault not the machine's).
I like HX machines! I own three, and have rebuilt a half-dozen or so more. I prefer the Bunn ES-1A/Futurmat Milady (I own two now, and sold one other). Once the water dance is mastered HX machines make wonderful coffee - over and over and over.
I like SB/DU machines! The best thing about them is they're cheaper than HX or Double boiler machines. They're also easy to PID, and once modded they are the perfect espresso machine for the home roaster. It's been my experience that every roast of every SO is just different enough, that each has it's own sweet spot as far as brewing temps go. With the PID'd SB/DU machine one has the ideal machine to find that sweet spot. One can run the PID setpoint up or down until the sweet spot is found, something that's not easy to do with the larger boilers in HX & double boiler machines.
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'The wasteful have too much money crowd' and the 'You can do everything with a stick of gum, a piece of tinfoil and a steam wand crowd'.
I see it slightly different.
I think there is a % of buying in to whatever equipment people choose and then justification towards their choices/decisions.
If I go out and spend what is a large amount of money for me I can't really tell you my shots are garbage without feeling silly. If I can't buy as much machine as you it might make me feel better to tell you my shots are every bit as good as yours.
Personally I have problems with both of those themes because they are both so un-espresso. :-\
But this argument is destined to go forever.
I've tried in a zillion threads to explain possibilities, expectations, (perceived results vs. actual) potentials, required workloads/effort on lessor machines, and loads of other stuff to try and keep it real because in truth you can't do everything with tinfoil and gum....just like you can't plunk down $2K and pull great shots based on your purchase price....
But great shots are possible on lessor machines and some people have over purchased beyond anything they will ever access.
But yeah, also what you said. ;D
No, actually we see it the same. I'm in complete agreement with everything you said. The reason I used the labels of 'The wasteful have too much money crowd' and the 'You can do everything with a stick of gum, a piece of tinfoil and a steam wand crowd', is because there is always one or two characters who start creating camps in order to try to polarize the crowd and further their own agenda, it gets tiring at times, don't you think?
Luckily for you and I we don't really have to guess where our heads are with espresso since we've drank hundreds of shots together, that gives us common reference points, phew!
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No, actually we see it the same.
I wrote a freaking epic ramble on this topic and it was WAY too much for this space.
All about how coffee is a river...and it got super out there. I almost posted it but pulled back. I've posted a few of these but this one was way WAY much and people would have been stymied.
But don't worry we agreed on that too. ;D ;D
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No, actually we see it the same.
I wrote a freaking epic ramble on this topic and it was WAY too much for this space.
All about how coffee is a river...and it got super out there. I almost posted it but pulled back. I've posted a few of these but this one was way WAY much and people would have been stymied.
But don't worry we agreed on that too. ;D ;D
Way out there?
How about as I stood in my kitchen early this afternoon after pulling a Pedra Roxa/Mapanga/Copey shot in small milk, I got my usual transformational coffee hit and off I went to spend some time in a forgotten memory slice (time, haha, what's time in this case) pretty cool because I accessed some stuff I had totally forgotten about, then pow, I was doing a little bit of present day expansion stuff, then pow, was that a slice of some potential future stuff going on. Big subject stuff, not enough time to get into it on electronic paper. I guess it helped that before the shot I was considering the ability of the espresso to act as a medium to allow for that sort of stuff, perhaps it works for me because I've enabled it as a system protocol that now kind of runs on its own once I engage it. Or something like that...
And you? ;-)
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The choice of machine is just that, a choice. It offers alternatives and differing paths along the journey. I'm in no doubt that I could have an acceptable journey along the path of single-boiler machines with temperature control, or with a heat exchanger machine. I looked at the options, what resources I've been blessed with, and chose the Vibiemme double based on what I thought gave me the best long-term path to travel.
I'd venture to say even in 3 months I've but taken a few feeble steps on that path, and stand humbled before the masses of those further along the journey with what some would call simpler machines.
It's a machine, merely a tool outlining a path (or John's river) to travel, nothing more, nothing less.
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And you? ;-)
;D
How I realize that I moved from being something floating on the river like a leaf or candy wrapper to being a part of the current now (where coffee is the river flow). A follow observation that the current is actually not the steering mechanism by itself and how funny that is to assimilate in and loose control/steering at the same time. Ironic right?
And then some ideas on matter/stuff the make up of things and the possibility that we might be made of coffee to start with anyhow just drawing back to ourselves.
Typica status quo stuff. ;)
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And you? ;-)
;D
How I realize that I moved from being something floating on the river like a leaf or candy wrapper to being a part of the current now (where coffee is the river flow). A follow observation that the current is actually not the steering mechanism by itself and how funny that is to assimilate in and loose control/steering at the same time. Ironic right?
And then some ideas on matter/stuff the make up of things and the possibility that we might be made of coffee to start with anyhow just drawing back to ourselves.
Typica status quo stuff. ;)
I get it.
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I get it.
I know....cuz you are made of coffee. ;D ;D
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'The wasteful have too much money crowd' and the 'You can do everything with a stick of gum, a piece of tinfoil and a steam wand crowd'.
I see it slightly different.
I think there is a % of buying in to whatever equipment people choose and then justification towards their choices/decisions.
If I go out and spend what is a large amount of money for me I can't really tell you my shots are garbage without feeling silly. If I can't buy as much machine as you it might make me feel better to tell you my shots are every bit as good as yours.
snipped
There's always that argument, and I'd even buy into it except it doesn't take into account the varying levels of experience of those making claims. What you say is usually attributable to inexperienced users, who've either bought more than they can use or to those who're jealous of the purchases of others.
But what about folks who've been at this long enough to make a recommendation based entirely on their experiences? I've been playing at espresso for a handful of decades, using many different machines, sometimes coming back to a machine after a few years with an entirely different perspective.
I like double boilers! The first one I played with was the La Marzocco owned by a local service club. I agreed to rebuild it for them in exchange for some antiques they had that Mrs T wanted. It was the heaviest machine I've worked on to date, and it made great coffee after I rebuilt it (the frou-frou wasn't so good - my fault not the machine's).
I like HX machines! I own three, and have rebuilt a half-dozen or so more. I prefer the Bunn ES-1A/Futurmat Milady (I own two now, and sold one other). Once the water dance is mastered HX machines make wonderful coffee - over and over and over.
I like SB/DU machines! The best thing about them is they're cheaper than HX or Double boiler machines. They're also easy to PID, and once modded they are the perfect espresso machine for the home roaster. It's been my experience that every roast of every SO is just different enough, that each has it's own sweet spot as far as brewing temps go. With the PID'd SB/DU machine one has the ideal machine to find that sweet spot. One can run the PID setpoint up or down until the sweet spot is found, something that's not easy to do with the larger boilers in HX & double boiler machines.
Stuffy writing aside - I only put the above out there so anyone reading my recommendations would know something of my espresso background. Without that bit of context, I'm afraid my recommendations might appear to fall into one of John's categories - 1) those that can't admit they made a poor decision or 2) those who defend their own pecuniary choices out of jealousy.
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Stuffy writing aside - I only put the above out there so anyone reading my recommendations would know something of my espresso background. Without that bit of context, I'm afraid my recommendations might appear to fall into one of John's categories - 1) those that can't admit they made a poor decision or 2) those who defend their own pecuniary choices out of jealousy.
I said a %.
I don't put myself in those categories either.
I think of your position as of someone who has spent time in developing the philosophy of established standards and measures to a known position that is your definition of good espresso. By the way one thing I like about your documentation is that you edit it over time.
I think your basic theme is that controling temp and brew pressure to the accepted standards is easily possible with PID/OPV machines and that is all one needs to produce something that is a proper temp/bar pulled shot. If they also follow good practices of fresh coffee, good water, etc..etc.. The baseline goal of "good coffee" is attainable.
I disagree with very little of that by the way but there is a lot more to the story beyond this point.
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Stuffy writing aside - I only put the above out there so anyone reading my recommendations would know something of my espresso background. Without that bit of context, I'm afraid my recommendations might appear to fall into one of John's categories - 1) those that can't admit they made a poor decision or 2) those who defend their own pecuniary choices out of jealousy.
I said a %.
I don't put myself in those categories either.
I think of your position as of someone who has spent time in developing the philosophy of established standards and measures to a known position that is your definition of good espresso. By the way one thing I like about your documentation is that you edit it over time.
I think your basic theme is that controling temp and brew pressure to the accepted standards is easily possible with PID/OPV machines and that is all one needs to produce something that is a proper temp/bar pulled shot. If they also follow good practices of fresh coffee, good water, etc..etc.. The baseline goal of "good coffee" is attainable.
I disagree with very little of that by the way but there is a lot more to the story beyond this point.
One thing that should be obvious to all - my interests are mostly in the mechanical aspects of making espresso, not the refining of techniques to get the most from each shot.
I'd much rather pull a couple dozens very good shots this week, than spend an inordinate amount of time trying to finesse the perfect shot. Maybe thirty years ago I'd have had a different agenda if this forum had existed then. For now, I'm satisfied with getting folks headed down the right road with proper equipment. I'll leave it to you & Shaun to take them that extra mile.
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One thing that should be obvious to all - my interests are mostly in the mechanical aspects of making espresso, not the refining of techniques to get the most from each shot.
For now, I'm satisfied with getting folks headed down the right road with proper equipment. I'll leave it to you & Shaun to take them that extra mile.
Fair enough and I think a close look will show the majority of anything I've disagreed with you on is about things in that extra mile category.
Hell man, I've got a modded Gaggia sitting over my shoulder right now. Obviously we agree on a few things.
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I get it.
I know....cuz you are made of coffee. ;D ;D
Takes one to know one. ;-)
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All of your many prayers have been answered. CL Rhode Island there is an Isomac Millennium II for $500. Jump on it! I do not know anything about it or it's owner. http://providence.craigslist.org/bfs/1783198201.html (http://providence.craigslist.org/bfs/1783198201.html)
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All of your many prayers have been answered. CL Rhode Island there is an Isomac Millennium II for $500. Jump on it! I do not know anything about it or it's owner. [url]http://providence.craigslist.org/bfs/1783198201.html[/url] ([url]http://providence.craigslist.org/bfs/1783198201.html[/url])
That is a good deal! Who did you aim that at Warrior?
:)
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It seems like pyment is looking, but it is for whoever. There is also a Macap M4 on CL right now for $200. That is a great price too!
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Wow ... a decent espresso setup for $700. How can you go wrong?
:)
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It seems like pyment is looking, but it is for whoever. There is also a Macap M4 on CL right now for $200. That is a great price too!
That is a fantastic price, if I didn't have one already I would jump on that.
So I have a question for you, it sounds like you are a big fan of the La San Marco lever and I know less about lever's than Tex knows about milk (hahaha), I've done some digging around and lever is still interesting me but scouring Kijiji and craigslist is getting a bit old. Do you know of an online seller that carries lever's you would give the stamp of approval?
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..... and I know less about lever's than Tex knows about milk (hahaha), .....
;D :bootyshake: ;D
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So I have a question for you, it sounds like you are a big fan of the La San Marco lever and I know less about lever's than Tex knows about milk (hahaha), I've done some digging around and lever is still interesting me but scouring Kijiji and craigslist is getting a bit old. Do you know of an online seller that carries lever's you would give the stamp of approval?
I saw one of these being used at CoffeeFest. http://xrl.in/5kpt (http://xrl.in/5kpt)
You'd have to change your name to Staylinni, or something tho' and become more Italian.
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So I have a question for you, it sounds like you are a big fan of the La San Marco lever and I know less about lever's than Tex knows about milk (hahaha), I've done some digging around and lever is still interesting me but scouring Kijiji and craigslist is getting a bit old. Do you know of an online seller that carries lever's you would give the stamp of approval?
I saw one of these being used at CoffeeFest. [url]http://xrl.in/5kpt[/url] ([url]http://xrl.in/5kpt[/url])
You'd have to change your name to Staylinni, or something tho' and become more Italian.
Or Herr Schotzie the 2nd.
:-X
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Here's one for those in need of a machine that says something about who they are.
(http://www.elektrasrl.com/img/nivola_md12.jpg)
Mrs T used one of these in her office until NASA nixed personal appliances. It was one of the polished aluminum models and it actually had some good features.
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It seems like pyment is looking, but it is for whoever. There is also a Macap M4 on CL right now for $200. That is a great price too!
That is a fantastic price, if I didn't have one already I would jump on that.
1st line has a few Compak K3 grinders new with warrenty for $299. That is also a great deal for a dedicated espresso grinder that delivers high quality grind.
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Tex, another (friendly) question for you along the lines of this thread... While I was researching, some credence was given to my thinking that because I possess almost zero barista skills that I would choose a machine capable of exacting performance so that I became the variable and not the machine.
Would you suggest a SB|DU machine or a HX to a noob? Or would you say it's better to have the noob realize if the shots are 'less-than' because it's them and not the machine.
See what I'm saying? For someone like Pyment who stated it's not about money, would you still stick to your 'do more with less' platform, and risk him losing interest because his skills aren't honed enough to use a machine that may be capable in someone's very skilled hands?
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Tex, another (friendly) question for you along the lines of this thread... While I was researching, some credence was given to my thinking that because I possess almost zero barista skills that I would choose a machine capable of exacting performance so that I became the variable and not the machine.
Would you suggest a SB|DU machine or a HX to a noob? Or would you say it's better to have the noob realize if the shots are 'less-than' because it's them and not the machine.
See what I'm saying? For someone like Pyment who stated it's not about money, would you still stick to your 'do more with less' platform, and risk him losing interest because his skills aren't honed enough to use a machine that may be capable in someone's very skilled hands?
I always recommend a SB/DU machine for the noob. The water dance of the HX is not difficult to master, but it's just another variable the noob doesn't have to take into consideration. And since it's been my experience that ~1/2 of everyone who tries making espresso drops out before mastering the skills that would make use of the more complex machines; I figure why spend the money on something they can't use to its fullest potential?
My reason for recommending simpler machines for noobs is simple; keep the complexity factor low, and the expectation of the results high. I've seen noobs so intimidated by the bells and whistles of their new machines, that they just won't use them. That's how I ended up with a VII to use for nearly 3 months; a friends husband bought it new after having caps at my house. They weren't total novices - they'd used a steam toy for years - but enough so that I strongly recommended one of my PID'd Espresso's as a good starting point. Instead, he let a sales agent at Chris' talk him into the VII.
Longish story made short; He got it, didn't succeed right away, figured espresso wasn't in his future, and pushed it to the back of his counter. Only after my friend got frustrated at having it on HER counter, doing nothing, did he call me for help. I brought him the Gaggia and bottomless portafilter I had, spent an hour showing him how to grind & tamp, and how to judge a shot by what he saw and tasted, then put the VII in my car to take home for testing and tuning (the group pressure was set at 10 bar - too high, and the group temp was 185°F - too low).
My suggestion of a simpler machine has nothing to do with money - heck my wife and I blow way too much at antique auctions to worry about the cost of an espresso machine! I simply want noobs to have a successful 1st venture into espresso. That means having a properly tuned combo of grinder & espresso machine and the minimum skill set to begin the journey. I have an easier time guiding them if they're using a machine that I'm intimately familiar with!
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That makes sense, sort of.
I don't get how the guy could be confused by, or unable to use his VII. But then I can program a VCR too.
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That makes sense, sort of.
I don't get how the guy could be confused by, or unable to use his VII. But then I can program a VCR too.
Part of the problem was, it wasn't properly tuned when it came from Chris Coffee. I can excuse that for a sub-$400 purchase, but for what those things cost - never!
Imagine, you've never driven a Porsche and the one time in your life when you get behind the wheel, it's running on two cylinders and the injectors are plugged. Since you've nothing to compare the experience to, you assume all high-performance cars are tricky to drive and beyond your skill level.
Edited: How many drivers ed programs have you seen that used anything but the most basic of cars?
That's what I see too often, people just being overwhelmed by their equipment.
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Boy. A nice guy would've tuned it for him, even if Chris' dropped the ball. Instead you sacrificially take it off his hands. ;D
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Tex, another (friendly) question for you along the lines of this thread... While I was researching, some credence was given to my thinking that because I possess almost zero barista skills that I would choose a machine capable of exacting performance so that I became the variable and not the machine.
Would you suggest a SB|DU machine or a HX to a noob? Or would you say it's better to have the noob realize if the shots are 'less-than' because it's them and not the machine.
See what I'm saying? For someone like Pyment who stated it's not about money, would you still stick to your 'do more with less' platform, and risk him losing interest because his skills aren't honed enough to use a machine that may be capable in someone's very skilled hands?
I always recommend a SB/DU machine for the noob. The water dance of the HX is not difficult to master, but it's just another variable the noob doesn't have to take into consideration. And since it's been my experience that ~1/2 of everyone who tries making espresso drops out before mastering the skills that would make use of the more complex machines; I figure why spend the money on something they can't use to its fullest potential?
My reason for recommending simpler machines for noobs is simple; keep the complexity factor low, and the expectation of the results high. I've seen noobs so intimidated by the bells and whistles of their new machines, that they just won't use them. That's how I ended up with a VII to use for nearly 3 months; a friends husband bought it new after having caps at my house. They weren't total novices - they'd used a steam toy for years - but enough so that I strongly recommended one of my PID'd Espresso's as a good starting point. Instead, he let a sales agent at Chris' talk him into the VII.
Longish story made short; He got it, didn't succeed right away, figured espresso wasn't in his future, and pushed it to the back of his counter. Only after my friend got frustrated at having it on HER counter, doing nothing, did he call me for help. I brought him the Gaggia and bottomless portafilter I had, spent an hour showing him how to grind & tamp, and how to judge a shot by what he saw and tasted, then put the VII in my car to take home for testing and tuning (the group pressure was set at 10 bar - too high, and the group temp was 185°F - too low).
My suggestion of a simpler machine has nothing to do with money - heck my wife and I blow way too much at antique auctions to worry about the cost of an espresso machine! I simply want noobs to have a successful 1st venture into espresso. That means having a properly tuned combo of grinder & espresso machine and the minimum skill set to begin the journey. I have an easier time guiding them if they're using a machine that I'm intimately familiar with!
Too common a problem; ladies experience what I have to offer and husbands suffer the consequences! >:D
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Boy. A nice guy would've tuned it for him, even if Chris' dropped the ball. Instead you sacrificially take it off his hands. ;D
He did him a favor ... he now has a simple machine to use.
;D
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Boy. A nice guy would've tuned it for him, even if Chris' dropped the ball. Instead you sacrificially take it off his hands. ;D
He did him a favor ... he now has a simple machine to use.
;D
Oh yeah, he owes me big time. And I did tune it before I returned it. Still not sure I did him a favor by swapping back like we did, the Gaggia was the better machine, but it didn't look as pretty as the VII.
Guess what? He also drives a vintage Maserati that also says a lot about who & what he is. His wife drives a simple Chevy pickup that does all the heavy work.
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Oh yeah, he owes me big time. And I did tune it before I returned it. Still not sure I did him a favor by swapping back like we did, the Gaggia was the better machine, but it didn't look as pretty as the VII.
Are you just talking trash to keep this stupid thread alive? I think so. Maybe you really don't know how to tune a machine. ;D
First you say it's all a matter of skill in the barista... then you say... ahhhh, forget it.
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Oh yeah, he owes me big time. And I did tune it before I returned it. Still not sure I did him a favor by swapping back like we did, the Gaggia was the better machine, but it didn't look as pretty as the VII.
Are you just talking trash to keep this stupid thread alive? I think so. Maybe you really don't know how to tune a machine. ;D
First you say it's all a matter of skill in the barista... then you say... ahhhh, forget it.
+1
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Chris Coffee has the absolute best customer service in the business and in fact in any business as far as I have experienced myself and from others I know who use them as a trusted vendor. If there was a problem with a new V2 La Spaz I firmly believe they would have made it right regardless of how much time or effort it took and on their dime (as it should be). I have had warranty part failure and a new one was drop shipped to my door arriving the next day. This seems like a pretty simple problem of offset temperature. The V2 is programmed so the set temperature is that of the water hitting the puck at the group and not the boiler temperature ( a nice feature in my opinion). If the owner was prepping good coffee beds with no channeling and getting horrible sour espresso it would be a simple diagnosis that the temperature was too low. Did this person attempt to contact Chris and get a fix? I am totally confident it would have been done in short order. There is a very long list of highly satisfied customers from Chris Coffee in good part because they take care of the customer needs after purchase too.
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Oh yeah, he owes me big time. And I did tune it before I returned it. Still not sure I did him a favor by swapping back like we did, the Gaggia was the better machine, but it didn't look as pretty as the VII.
Are you just talking trash to keep this stupid thread alive? I think so. Maybe you really don't know how to tune a machine. ;D
First you say it's all a matter of skill in the barista... then you say... ahhhh, forget it.
Sure I do! Getta big enuff hamma and everything woiks out OK!
(http://www.sitevip.net/gifs/hammer/HAMMER_T_animado.gif)
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Chris Coffee has the absolute best customer service in the business and in fact in any business as far as I have experienced myself and from others I know who use them as a trusted vendor. If there was a problem with a new V2 La Spaz I firmly believe they would have made it right regardless of how much time or effort it took and on their dime (as it should be). I have had warranty part failure and a new one was drop shipped to my door arriving the next day. This seems like a pretty simple problem of offset temperature. The V2 is programmed so the set temperature is that of the water hitting the puck at the group and not the boiler temperature ( a nice feature in my opinion). If the owner was prepping good coffee beds with no channeling and getting horrible sour espresso it would be a simple diagnosis that the temperature was too low. Did this person attempt to contact Chris and get a fix? I am totally confident it would have been done in short order. There is a very long list of highly satisfied customers from Chris Coffee in good part because they take care of the customer needs after purchase too.
As usual, you missed my point - probably intentionally so you could make an absurd point. He was an inexperienced user with nothing to compare it to. He thought the problem was him, not the machine. By exchanging machines with him for awhile he could develop his skills on a machine he knew to be properly tuned.
And how many calls do you suppose a service center gets that go something like this, "Hello, my Whizz Bang 3000 won't make good espresso so I want to return it.", "No, I've never been shown how to use an espresso machine but your sales person said it's a piece of cake, so I'm assuming the machine is broken, so I want to return it for a refund."
Call any of the retailers and ask if they have machines that've been returned that work perfectly? All of them do, unless they're drop ship retailers.
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He could NOT have developed his barista skills any differently with your machine then he could have with the V2 alone. I have to assume that you showed him how to dose, distribute and tamp to prepare a coffee bed for extraction. It's the same on any machine. You are making the absurd statements once again. I simply stated that Chris Coffee was as good a vendor as there is in my opinion after you stated that it was in excusable to send him a machine that you claim was not "tuned" properly.
Did he try to call Chris and find out how to remedy his problem? Was he treated poorly in doing so?
-
He could NOT have developed his barista skills any differently with your machine then he could have with the V2 alone. I have to assume that you showed him how to dose, distribute and tamp to prepare a coffee bed for extraction. It's the same on any machine. You are making the absurd statements once again. I simply stated that Chris Coffee was as good a vendor as there is in my opinion after you stated that it was in excusable to send him a machine that you claim was not "tuned" properly.
And you have zero credibility with anyone who understands the mechanics of making espresso. Your patently foolish statement that environmental/ambient temperatures in any way impacts a machine performance is proof enough of your ignorance.
Now go away until you've developed the skills/knowledge to take part in this conversation.
-
He could NOT have developed his barista skills any differently with your machine then he could have with the V2 alone. I have to assume that you showed him how to dose, distribute and tamp to prepare a coffee bed for extraction. It's the same on any machine. You are making the absurd statements once again. I simply stated that Chris Coffee was as good a vendor as there is in my opinion after you stated that it was in excusable to send him a machine that you claim was not "tuned" properly.
And you have zero credibility with anyone who understands the mechanics of making espresso. Your patently foolish statement that environmental/ambient temperatures in any way impacts a machine performance is proof enough of your ignorance.
Now go away until you've developed the skills/knowledge to take part in this conversation.
Bad attempt to diflect the fact that you at totally wrong in this argument. Your stubborn exaggeration of the capabilities of home SB/DU units is what is foolish beyond belief. I have no ax to grind in this argument but you have shown your ignorance and total lack of credibility. It's actually funny how absurd your statement that your Gaggia is a better espresso machine then the La Spaz V2! ::) ::) ::) ::)
-
Tex is the all-time deflector-pro.
-
Tex is the all-time deflector-pro.
Way to go peter, take an explosive topic and pour gas on it! ;D
-
He could NOT have developed his barista skills any differently with your machine then he could have with the V2 alone. I have to assume that you showed him how to dose, distribute and tamp to prepare a coffee bed for extraction. It's the same on any machine. You are making the absurd statements once again. I simply stated that Chris Coffee was as good a vendor as there is in my opinion after you stated that it was in excusable to send him a machine that you claim was not "tuned" properly.
And you have zero credibility with anyone who understands the mechanics of making espresso. Your patently foolish statement that environmental/ambient temperatures in any way impacts a machine performance is proof enough of your ignorance.
Now go away until you've developed the skills/knowledge to take part in this conversation.
Bad attempt to diflect the fact that you at totally wrong in this argument. Your stubborn exaggeration of the capabilities of home SB/DU units is what is foolish beyond belief. I have no ax to grind in this argument but you have shown your ignorance and total lack of credibility. It's actually funny how absurd your statement that your Gaggia is a better espresso machine then the La Spaz V2! ::) ::) ::) ::)
Yeah, well now that you've shared your expert opinion with us maybe you'll crawl back into your hole and dream up some more absurd statements to mumble here?
-
Tex is the all-time deflector-pro.
Way to go peter, take an explosive topic and pour gas on it! ;D
He is just doing his duty and making sure "the arguing" is maintained at a high level.
:-X
-
Tex is the all-time deflector-pro.
Thank you Peter. I don't want any arguments that get heated beyond boundaries of civil behavior between coffee lovers. I just wanted to interject my opinions and what I believe to be facts into the discussion. I believe every fact I posted is accurate and I believe that Chris Coffee would do anything and everything possible to satisfy a customer (based on my experience).
-
Tex is the all-time deflector-pro.
Way to go peter, take an explosive topic and pour gas on it! ;D
He is just doing his duty and making sure "the arguing" is maintained at a high level.
:-X
He goes way beyond any sense of duty - he enjoys the hell out of stirring up trouble. For that matter, so do you!! 8)
-
Tex is the all-time deflector-pro.
Thank you Peter. I don't want any arguments that get heated beyond boundaries of civil behavior between coffee lovers. I just wanted to interject my opinions and what I believe to be facts into the discussion. I believe every fact I posted is accurate and I believe that Chris Coffee would do anything and everything possible to satisfy a customer (based on my experience).
Even turn the heat up in your kitchen so your VII can make better coffee?
-
He could NOT have developed his barista skills any differently with your machine then he could have with the V2 alone. I have to assume that you showed him how to dose, distribute and tamp to prepare a coffee bed for extraction. It's the same on any machine. You are making the absurd statements once again. I simply stated that Chris Coffee was as good a vendor as there is in my opinion after you stated that it was in excusable to send him a machine that you claim was not "tuned" properly.
And you have zero credibility with anyone who understands the mechanics of making espresso. Your patently foolish statement that environmental/ambient temperatures in any way impacts a machine performance is proof enough of your ignorance.
Now go away until you've developed the skills/knowledge to take part in this conversation.
Bad attempt to diflect the fact that you at totally wrong in this argument. Your stubborn exaggeration of the capabilities of home SB/DU units is what is foolish beyond belief. I have no ax to grind in this argument but you have shown your ignorance and total lack of credibility. It's actually funny how absurd your statement that your Gaggia is a better espresso machine then the La Spaz V2! ::) ::) ::) ::)
Yeah, well now that you've shared your expert opinion with us maybe you'll crawl back into your hole and dream up some more absurd statements to mumble here?
Great and intelligent response that rebuffs my statement beyond any doubt. ::) You should be a professional debater. You could get a job at the UN debating international trade disputes (for the other side!)
-
Tex is the all-time deflector-pro.
I believe every fact I posted is accurate and I believe that Chris Coffee would do anything and everything possible to satisfy a customer (based on my experience).
But that wouldn't fit into Tex's world-view. Rather than help the guy get the machine working well by getting on the phone to Chris' and walking through a few steps with both the neighbor and a service tech, it's easier to keep pounding the pulpit and shout the 'I can do anything with a Gaggia' matra a little louder.
-
He could NOT have developed his barista skills any differently with your machine then he could have with the V2 alone. I have to assume that you showed him how to dose, distribute and tamp to prepare a coffee bed for extraction. It's the same on any machine. You are making the absurd statements once again. I simply stated that Chris Coffee was as good a vendor as there is in my opinion after you stated that it was in excusable to send him a machine that you claim was not "tuned" properly.
And you have zero credibility with anyone who understands the mechanics of making espresso. Your patently foolish statement that environmental/ambient temperatures in any way impacts a machine performance is proof enough of your ignorance.
Now go away until you've developed the skills/knowledge to take part in this conversation.
Bad attempt to diflect the fact that you at totally wrong in this argument. Your stubborn exaggeration of the capabilities of home SB/DU units is what is foolish beyond belief. I have no ax to grind in this argument but you have shown your ignorance and total lack of credibility. It's actually funny how absurd your statement that your Gaggia is a better espresso machine then the La Spaz V2! ::) ::) ::) ::)
Yeah, well now that you've shared your expert opinion with us maybe you'll crawl back into your hole and dream up some more absurd statements to mumble here?
Great and intelligent response that rebuffs my statement beyond any doubt. ::) You should be a professional debater. You could get a job at the UN debating international trade disputes (for the other side!)
And you should definitely keep your day job, because you'd never make it in the espresso field - any part of it!
-
Tex is the all-time deflector-pro.
I believe every fact I posted is accurate and I believe that Chris Coffee would do anything and everything possible to satisfy a customer (based on my experience).
But that wouldn't fit into Tex's world-view. Rather than help the guy get the machine working well by getting on the phone to Chris' and walking through a few steps with both the neighbor and a service tech, it's easier to keep pounding the pulpit and shout the 'I can do anything with a Gaggia' matra a little louder.
A few steps? Now you're showing your ignorance peter - must be contagious, whatever GC7 has.
What possible help could a service technician offer over the phone, accepting that few people have a 53mm portafilter mounted manometer to adjust the group pressure or 53mm Scace device to adjust the group temp? In fact I know a handful of professional technicians and none of them happen to carry those particular tools around.
It was much easier to swap machines for awhile, so I could take his machine home and tune it.
-
Ok ... I gotta chime in here ... even though Peter may be loving this ... this discussion has now earned Hottopic status ... it started as a discussion on superior espresso machines and now has gotten down to personal attacks.
Really ... don't we all love a good cup of coffee? Don't we all take pride in how we make our coffee? Don't we all have certain tricks that work for us and may not work for others? Don't we all have our ideas of what the best espresso solution is?
Lets remember that the machine is only one spoke in the wheel ... and certainly not the most important one. Opinions are like back sides ... everyone has them. We must respect everyone's opinion (and backside for that matter) or these discussions will resemble discussions I remember having in Kindergarten.
Can we be civil?
???
-
Ok ... I gotta chime in here ... even though Peter may be loving this ... this discussion has now earned Hottopic status ... it started as a discussion on superior espresso machines and now has gotten down to personal attacks.
Really ... don't we all love a good cup of coffee? Don't we all take pride in how we make our coffee? Don't we all have certain tricks that work for us and may not work for others? Don't we all have our ideas of what the best espresso solution is?
Lets remember that the machine is only one spoke in the wheel ... and certainly not the most important one. Opinions are like back sides ... everyone has them. We must respect everyone's opinion (and backside for that matter) or these discussions will resemble discussions I remember having in Kindergarten.
Can we be civil?
???
And don't we all have our little ol' Canadian peacemaker that we'd like to choke! ;)
-
Ok ... I gotta chime in here ... even though Peter may be loving this ... this discussion has now earned Hottopic status ... it started as a discussion on superior espresso machines and now has gotten down to personal attacks.
Really ... don't we all love a good cup of coffee? Don't we all take pride in how we make our coffee? Don't we all have certain tricks that work for us and may not work for others? Don't we all have our ideas of what the best espresso solution is?
Lets remember that the machine is only one spoke in the wheel ... and certainly not the most important one. Opinions are like back sides ... everyone has them. We must respect everyone's opinion (and backside for that matter) or these discussions will resemble discussions I remember having in Kindergarten.
Can we be civil?
???
And don't we all have our little ol' Canadian peacemaker that we'd like to choke! ;)
Sure ... shoot the messenger when the message arrives.
::)
-
Three discussions of possible environmentaal effects on brew temperature of different class machines.
http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/wondering-how-much-to-offset-vibiemme-domobar-super-pid-t14364.html?hilit=room%20temperature#p171819 (http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/wondering-how-much-to-offset-vibiemme-domobar-super-pid-t14364.html?hilit=room%20temperature#p171819)
http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/saturated-group-vs-e61-group-on-temperature-repeatability-t12594.html?hilit=room%20temperature#p146462 (http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/saturated-group-vs-e61-group-on-temperature-repeatability-t12594.html?hilit=room%20temperature#p146462)
http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/cimbali-junior-d-1-temperature-probe-t13575.html?hilit=room%20temperature#p164467 (http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/cimbali-junior-d-1-temperature-probe-t13575.html?hilit=room%20temperature#p164467)
Only a small sampling but I'm sure it does not apply to Gaggias
-
Three discussions of possible environmentaal effects on brew temperature of different class machines.
[url]http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/wondering-how-much-to-offset-vibiemme-domobar-super-pid-t14364.html?hilit=room%20temperature#p171819[/url] ([url]http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/wondering-how-much-to-offset-vibiemme-domobar-super-pid-t14364.html?hilit=room%20temperature#p171819[/url])
[url]http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/saturated-group-vs-e61-group-on-temperature-repeatability-t12594.html?hilit=room%20temperature#p146462[/url] ([url]http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/saturated-group-vs-e61-group-on-temperature-repeatability-t12594.html?hilit=room%20temperature#p146462[/url])
[url]http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/cimbali-junior-d-1-temperature-probe-t13575.html?hilit=room%20temperature#p164467[/url] ([url]http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/cimbali-junior-d-1-temperature-probe-t13575.html?hilit=room%20temperature#p164467[/url])
Only a small sampling but I'm sure it does not apply to Gaggias
An idiot citing idiots parlaying about their idiotic observances. I've done data logging of PID'd machines (HX, SB/DU and lever operated) group temps during the winter months when the ambient temp is 71°F and during the summer months when the room temp is 77°F. There's never been the slightest deviation in performance that can be attributed to ambient temp changes - zero.
Get me someone with knowledge who makes that statement and I'll consider it.
-
That makes perfect sense.
When the room temperature is cooler than 20 degrees Celsius my F.I.R. sauna does not reach the temperature it reaches as when it is at 22 degrees Celsius.
I see no reason why that would not be the case with espresso machines or any other machines.
:)
-
Three discussions of possible environmentaal effects on brew temperature of different class machines.
[url]http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/wondering-how-much-to-offset-vibiemme-domobar-super-pid-t14364.html?hilit=room%20temperature#p171819[/url] ([url]http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/wondering-how-much-to-offset-vibiemme-domobar-super-pid-t14364.html?hilit=room%20temperature#p171819[/url])
[url]http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/saturated-group-vs-e61-group-on-temperature-repeatability-t12594.html?hilit=room%20temperature#p146462[/url] ([url]http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/saturated-group-vs-e61-group-on-temperature-repeatability-t12594.html?hilit=room%20temperature#p146462[/url])
[url]http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/cimbali-junior-d-1-temperature-probe-t13575.html?hilit=room%20temperature#p164467[/url] ([url]http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/cimbali-junior-d-1-temperature-probe-t13575.html?hilit=room%20temperature#p164467[/url])
Only a small sampling but I'm sure it does not apply to Gaggias
An idiot citing idiots parlaying about their idiotic observances. I've done data logging of PID'd machines (HX, SB/DU and lever operated) group temps during the winter months when the ambient temp is 71°F and during the summer months when the room temp is 77°F. There's never been the slightest deviation in performance that can be attributed to ambient temp changes - zero.
Get me someone with knowledge who makes that statement and I'll consider it.
You mean you and only you? ::)
-
That makes perfect sense.
When the room temperature is cooler than 20 degrees Celsius my F.I.R. sauna does not reach the temperature it reaches as when it is at 22 degrees Celsius.
I see no reason why that would not be the case with espresso machines or any other machines.
:)
Let's see - does your sauna have a 1500 watt heater to heat less than 4 ozs of water? Is your sauna's temperature controlled by a PID programmed to maintain a preset temp to with 1°F? Does your sauna have a massive brass thermal mass to aid in that temperature control?
1st rule of logic which GC7 doesn't get; don't apply what you think you know about one thing, to something about which you're totally ignorant!
-
Three discussions of possible environmentaal effects on brew temperature of different class machines.
[url]http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/wondering-how-much-to-offset-vibiemme-domobar-super-pid-t14364.html?hilit=room%20temperature#p171819[/url] ([url]http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/wondering-how-much-to-offset-vibiemme-domobar-super-pid-t14364.html?hilit=room%20temperature#p171819[/url])
[url]http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/saturated-group-vs-e61-group-on-temperature-repeatability-t12594.html?hilit=room%20temperature#p146462[/url] ([url]http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/saturated-group-vs-e61-group-on-temperature-repeatability-t12594.html?hilit=room%20temperature#p146462[/url])
[url]http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/cimbali-junior-d-1-temperature-probe-t13575.html?hilit=room%20temperature#p164467[/url] ([url]http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/cimbali-junior-d-1-temperature-probe-t13575.html?hilit=room%20temperature#p164467[/url])
Only a small sampling but I'm sure it does not apply to Gaggias
An idiot citing idiots parlaying about their idiotic observances. I've done data logging of PID'd machines (HX, SB/DU and lever operated) group temps during the winter months when the ambient temp is 71°F and during the summer months when the room temp is 77°F. There's never been the slightest deviation in performance that can be attributed to ambient temp changes - zero.
Get me someone with knowledge who makes that statement and I'll consider it.
You mean you and only you? ::)
No, Scace or Schulman will do for a start.
-
I have a PID controlled boiler (+/- 1* F) AND a grouphead digital thermometer. Ambient room temperature has as much as a 3-4* effect on steady state equlibrium grouphead temperature that MUST be accounted for to get desired brew temperatures. FACT
-
That makes perfect sense.
When the room temperature is cooler than 20 degrees Celsius my F.I.R. sauna does not reach the temperature it reaches as when it is at 22 degrees Celsius.
I see no reason why that would not be the case with espresso machines or any other machines.
:)
Let's see - does your sauna have a 1500 watt heater to heat less than 4 ozs of water? Is your sauna's temperature controlled by a PID programmed to maintain a preset temp to with 1°F? Does your sauna have a massive brass thermal mass to aid in that temperature control?
1st rule of logic which GC7 doesn't get; don't apply what you think you know about one thing, to something about which you're totally ignorant!
Yes ... the sauna is 1500 watts.
It is not heating up 4 ounces of water ... it is heating up the space inside it.
Not having a clear picture or full working knowledge of how a PID works I cannot answer that. I can tell you it is a digital setting. It displays the temperature in Celsius or Fahrenheit and displays the temperature as it climbs to the temperature setting you have put it at.
A massive brass thermal mass ... I must admit I never opened up the heater or its parts but would venture to guess that it does not.
:)
-
What was this thread about again?
-
For those who care about details, try this. An espresso machine is using a PID to maintain a group/brewing temp of 200°F, typically to within <1°F. Environmental/ambient temperatures may affect the external temps of the boiler & group, but as the temp drops the PID instantly senses this and fires up the heating element to compensate. The boiler/group maintains a steady temperature to within <1°F, as determined by the PID's programming.
Likewise, if the ambient temp rises the PID senses the change and keeps the heating element off to compensate.
Environmental changes do not affect the shot, they simply wake up or put to sleep any device managing the group/brew temperatures. Unless the controlling device is defective it will maintain a very consistent brewing temperature. That's what a PID is designed to do and they've been doing it well for decades.
-
What was this thread about again?
Supposedly good or great espresso machines. It seems that topic was never realized. If you want arguing ... then I think you picked the right thread.
::)
-
I have a PID controlled boiler (+/- 1* F) AND a grouphead digital thermometer. Ambient room temperature has as much as a 3-4* effect on steady state equlibrium grouphead temperature that MUST be accounted for to get desired brew temperatures. FACT
Now you're changing your facts to fit your argument. The environmental temp isn't affecting the brewing device, but instead affects the device controlling the boiler?
I agree with that, but it in no way impacts the machine performance if the device is functioning properly and maintains the preset temperature.
-
What was this thread about again?
Supposedly good or great espresso machines. It seems that topic was never realized. If you want arguing ... then I think you picked the right thread.
::)
I still say we need an animated icon of someone arguing the balls off a brass billy goat?
-
What was this thread about again?
Supposedly good or great espresso machines. It seems that topic was never realized. If you want arguing ... then I think you picked the right thread.
::)
I still say we need an animated icon of someone arguing the balls off a brass billy goat?
:argue:
-
What was this thread about again?
Supposedly good or great espresso machines. It seems that topic was never realized. If you want arguing ... then I think you picked the right thread.
::)
I still say we need an animated icon of someone arguing the balls off a brass billy goat?
:argue:
I thought that was you and your mother-in-law?
-
For those who care about details, try this. An espresso machine is using a PID to maintain a group/brewing temp of 200°F, typically to within <1°F. Environmental/ambient temperatures may affect the external temps of the boiler & group, but as they change the PID instantly senses this and fires up the heating element to compensate. The boiler/group maintains a steady temperature to within <1°F, as determined by the PID's programming.
Likewise, if the ambient temp falls the PID senses the change and keeps the heating element off to compensate.
Environmental changes do not affect the shot, they simply wake up or put to sleep any device managing the group/brew temperatures. Unless the controlling device is defective it will maintain a very consistent brewing temperature. That's what a PID is designed to do and they've been doing it well for decades.
I bit confused on this PID working.
Is it not dependent on the placement of the probe(s) or thermocouples of the PID the temperature setting that will be kept? For example if the PID is supposed to monitor and maintain the temperature of the boiler then it will only do that and do it pretty well. It would never read or otherwise monitor the temperature at the group head ... right?
???
-
What was this thread about again?
Supposedly good or great espresso machines. It seems that topic was never realized. If you want arguing ... then I think you picked the right thread.
::)
I still say we need an animated icon of someone arguing the balls off a brass billy goat?
:argue:
I thought that was you and your mother-in-law?
Are you implying that Milo hates his mother in law?
???
-
What was this thread about again?
Supposedly good or great espresso machines. It seems that topic was never realized. If you want arguing ... then I think you picked the right thread.
::)
OK, OK! Just for MP's satisfaction! :-X
Good espresso machine = tunable to minimum standards, capable of producing great shots on occasion, and has adequate steam power for personal use.
Great espresso machine = tunable to minimum standards, capable of producing great shots over and over, to the users hearts content, loads of steam power to make those lovely frou-frou drinks.
Crappy espresso machine = not tunable to minimum standards, lucky to get one shot that drinkable, couldn't produce enough steam to wilt lettuce.
How's that for a definition?
-
What was this thread about again?
Supposedly good or great espresso machines. It seems that topic was never realized. If you want arguing ... then I think you picked the right thread.
::)
I still say we need an animated icon of someone arguing the balls off a brass billy goat?
:argue:
I thought that was you and your mother-in-law?
Are you implying that Milo hates his mother in law?
???
Are you implying that he doesn't?
???
-
What was this thread about again?
Supposedly good or great espresso machines. It seems that topic was never realized. If you want arguing ... then I think you picked the right thread.
::)
I still say we need an animated icon of someone arguing the balls off a brass billy goat?
:argue:
I thought that was you and your mother-in-law?
Are you implying that Milo hates his mother in law?
???
Are you implying that he doesn't?
???
I didn't imply anything.
:angel:
-
What was this thread about again?
Supposedly good or great espresso machines. It seems that topic was never realized. If you want arguing ... then I think you picked the right thread.
::)
I still say we need an animated icon of someone arguing the balls off a brass billy goat?
:argue:
I thought that was you and your mother-in-law?
Are you implying that Milo hates his mother in law?
???
Are you implying that he doesn't?
???
I didn't imply anything.
:angel:
Are you implying that you're innocent or just clueless?
???
-
What was this thread about again?
Supposedly good or great espresso machines. It seems that topic was never realized. If you want arguing ... then I think you picked the right thread.
::)
OK, OK! Just for MP's satisfaction! :-X
Good espresso machine = tunable to minimum standards, capable of producing great shots on occasion, and has adequate steam power for personal use.
Great espresso machine = tunable to minimum standards, capable of producing great shots over and over, to the users hearts content, loads of steam power to make those lovely frou-frou drinks.
Crappy espresso machine = not tunable to minimum standards, lucky to get one shot that drinkable, couldn't produce enough steam to wilt lettuce.
How's that for a definition?
As of this post #264 ... it is a good start in defining bad, good, and great espresso machines.
:)
-
What was this thread about again?
Supposedly good or great espresso machines. It seems that topic was never realized. If you want arguing ... then I think you picked the right thread.
::)
I still say we need an animated icon of someone arguing the balls off a brass billy goat?
:argue:
I thought that was you and your mother-in-law?
Are you implying that Milo hates his mother in law?
???
Are you implying that he doesn't?
???
I didn't imply anything.
:angel:
Are you implying that you're innocent or just clueless?
???
What good is an icon to argue the balls off of a billy goat when we can't get the basic ones properly defined?
:angel: - Angel ... it means I am angelic and don't imply anything.
:angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel:
-
For those who care about details, try this. An espresso machine is using a PID to maintain a group/brewing temp of 200°F, typically to within <1°F. Environmental/ambient temperatures may affect the external temps of the boiler & group, but as they change the PID instantly senses this and fires up the heating element to compensate. The boiler/group maintains a steady temperature to within <1°F, as determined by the PID's programming.
Likewise, if the ambient temp falls the PID senses the change and keeps the heating element off to compensate.
Environmental changes do not affect the shot, they simply wake up or put to sleep any device managing the group/brew temperatures. Unless the controlling device is defective it will maintain a very consistent brewing temperature. That's what a PID is designed to do and they've been doing it well for decades.
I bit confused on this PID working.
Is it not dependent on the placement of the probe(s) or thermocouples of the PID the temperature setting that will be kept? For example if the PID is supposed to monitor and maintain the temperature of the boiler then it will only do that and do it pretty well. It would never read or otherwise monitor the temperature at the group head ... right?
???
Not really. If the thermocouple is placed on the boiler or group, or even inside the boiler, there will not be an exact display of the temps at the group or in the filter. But, there will be a direct correlation between the temp displayed and the brew temp. Example: I put t/c's on the brew tstat boss for Gaggias. Because of the proximity of the heating elements the display temp will usually be ~7°F above the actual brew temp. Knowing that, one tests for brew temps using a Scace device or the styrofoam cup test and makes adjustments to the PID up or down, making 1°F changes of the displayed temp to change the brew temp by a like amount.
Why not measure the brew temp directly? That would only be viable if one had water running through the group continuously. Since water passes through the group only when a shot is pulled, there would be nothing for the PID to adjust for when the machine is idle. That's when a PID works it's magic - during idle times.
-
What was this thread about again?
Supposedly good or great espresso machines. It seems that topic was never realized. If you want arguing ... then I think you picked the right thread.
::)
I still say we need an animated icon of someone arguing the balls off a brass billy goat?
:argue:
I thought that was you and your mother-in-law?
Are you implying that Milo hates his mother in law?
???
Are you implying that he doesn't?
???
I didn't imply anything.
:angel:
Are you implying that you're innocent or just clueless?
???
What good is an icon to argue the balls off of a billy goat when we can't get the basic ones properly defined?
:angel: - Angel ... it means I am angelic and don't imply anything.
:angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel:
So we need an icon of someone arguing the balls off an angel? Aren't all angels gender neutral?
Sorta like Canadians but better dressed? :angel:
-
For those who care about details, try this. An espresso machine is using a PID to maintain a group/brewing temp of 200°F, typically to within <1°F. Environmental/ambient temperatures may affect the external temps of the boiler & group, but as they change the PID instantly senses this and fires up the heating element to compensate. The boiler/group maintains a steady temperature to within <1°F, as determined by the PID's programming.
Likewise, if the ambient temp falls the PID senses the change and keeps the heating element off to compensate.
Environmental changes do not affect the shot, they simply wake up or put to sleep any device managing the group/brew temperatures. Unless the controlling device is defective it will maintain a very consistent brewing temperature. That's what a PID is designed to do and they've been doing it well for decades.
I bit confused on this PID working.
Is it not dependent on the placement of the probe(s) or thermocouples of the PID the temperature setting that will be kept? For example if the PID is supposed to monitor and maintain the temperature of the boiler then it will only do that and do it pretty well. It would never read or otherwise monitor the temperature at the group head ... right?
???
Not really. If the thermocouple is placed on the boiler or group, or even inside the boiler, there will not be an exact display of the temps at the group or in the filter. But, there will be a direct correlation between the temp displayed and the brew temp. Example: I put t/c's on the brew tstat boss for Gaggias. Because of the proximity of the heating elements the display temp will usually be ~7°F above the actual brew temp. Knowing that, one tests for brew temps using a Scace device or the styrofoam cup test and makes adjustments to the PID up or down, making 1°F changes of the displayed temp to change the brew temp by a like amount.
Why not measure the brew temp directly? That would only be viable if one had water running through the group continuously. Since water passes through the group only when a shot is pulled, there would be nothing for the PID to adjust for when the machine is idle. That's when a PID works it's magic - during idle times.
So technically ... couldn't you rig it so that the PID is keeping track of the group temperature (after all ... there is the temperature for the money shot) so that when you pull the group is exactly the right temperature you need to get the most out of your bean?
???
-
What was this thread about again?
Supposedly good or great espresso machines. It seems that topic was never realized. If you want arguing ... then I think you picked the right thread.
::)
I still say we need an animated icon of someone arguing the balls off a brass billy goat?
:argue:
I thought that was you and your mother-in-law?
Are you implying that Milo hates his mother in law?
???
Are you implying that he doesn't?
???
I didn't imply anything.
:angel:
Are you implying that you're innocent or just clueless?
???
What good is an icon to argue the balls off of a billy goat when we can't get the basic ones properly defined?
:angel: - Angel ... it means I am angelic and don't imply anything.
:angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel:
So we need an icon of someone arguing the balls off an angel? Aren't all angels gender neutral?
Sorta like Canadians but better dressed? :angel:
Angel's are spiritual entities who do not argue.
I don't believe there are any living in the great state of Texas.
Oh ... and they dress just like Canadians.
;D
-
What was this thread about again?
Supposedly good or great espresso machines. It seems that topic was never realized. If you want arguing ... then I think you picked the right thread.
::)
I still say we need an animated icon of someone arguing the balls off a brass billy goat?
:argue:
I thought that was you and your mother-in-law?
Are you implying that Milo hates his mother in law?
???
Are you implying that he doesn't?
???
I didn't imply anything.
:angel:
Are you implying that you're innocent or just clueless?
???
What good is an icon to argue the balls off of a billy goat when we can't get the basic ones properly defined?
:angel: - Angel ... it means I am angelic and don't imply anything.
:angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel:
What we *really* need is a plugin that stops quote nesting after about two deep or so :P
-
Angel's are spiritual entities who do not argue.
I don't believe there are any living in the great state of Texas.
Must've never been by SMU ;D
-
I thought that was you and your mother-in-law?
I like my mother-in-law
-
So technically ... couldn't you rig it so that the PID is keeping track of the group temperature (after all ... there is the temperature for the money shot) so that when you pull the group is exactly the right temperature you need to get the most out of your bean?
???
If all you wanted to do was measure the brew temps that would work. But if you want to manage the boiler temps so you can get a predictable temp for every shot brewed, no.
edited: Here's some non-technical definitions that might help you understand what a PID is doing. (http://www.omega.com/prodinfo/temperaturecontrollers.html)
-
I thought that was you and your mother-in-law?
I like my mother-in-law
But has she ever reconciled to you marrying HER daughter? ;D
-
Angel's are spiritual entities who do not argue.
I don't believe there are any living in the great state of Texas.
Must've never been by SMU ;D
Or seen the cheer squad at Texas Tech? :angel: every one of them! :angel:
-
Angel's are spiritual entities who do not argue.
I don't believe there are any living in the great state of Texas.
Must've never been by SMU ;D
Or seen the cheer squad at Texas Tech? :angel: every one of them! :angel:
No! They most certainly do not dress like that.
:-X
-
Angel's are spiritual entities who do not argue.
I don't believe there are any living in the great state of Texas.
Must've never been by SMU ;D
Or seen the cheer squad at Texas Tech? :angel: every one of them! :angel:
No! They most certainly do not dress like that.
:-X
Are you sure? My super-saturated maleness suggests otherwise!! 8)
-
Angel's are spiritual entities who do not argue.
I don't believe there are any living in the great state of Texas.
Must've never been by SMU ;D
Or seen the cheer squad at Texas Tech? :angel: every one of them! :angel:
No! They most certainly do not dress like that.
:-X
Are you sure? My super-saturated maleness suggests otherwise!! 8)
Ah ... that is your ego talking.
:-X
-
Angel's are spiritual entities who do not argue.
I don't believe there are any living in the great state of Texas.
Must've never been by SMU ;D
Or seen the cheer squad at Texas Tech? :angel: every one of them! :angel:
No! They most certainly do not dress like that.
:-X
Are you sure? My super-saturated maleness suggests otherwise!! 8)
Ah ... that is your ego talking.
:-X
Nope, I just checked and my fly's closed! ;D
-
Angel's are spiritual entities who do not argue.
I don't believe there are any living in the great state of Texas.
Must've never been by SMU ;D
Or seen the cheer squad at Texas Tech? :angel: every one of them! :angel:
Yeah...that pretty much sets middle ground for the state ;)
-
Angel's are spiritual entities who do not argue.
I don't believe there are any living in the great state of Texas.
Must've never been by SMU ;D
Or seen the cheer squad at Texas Tech? :angel: every one of them! :angel:
No! They most certainly do not dress like that.
:-X
Are you sure? My super-saturated maleness suggests otherwise!! 8)
Ah ... that is your ego talking.
:-X
Nope, I just checked and my fly's closed! ;D
Check again ... your ego is at your fence peeping over it to the next door neighbor.
;D
-
Angel's are spiritual entities who do not argue.
I don't believe there are any living in the great state of Texas.
Must've never been by SMU ;D
Or seen the cheer squad at Texas Tech? :angel: every one of them! :angel:
Yeah...that pretty much sets middle ground for the state ;)
Are you implying that the great state of Texas is defined by its cheer leaders?
???
-
One can only hope those girls are no angels >:D
:angel:
-
It seems a lot of folks are confused about the purpose behind PIDing an espresso machine. A PID, in this application, has but one function; managing the temperature of the water in the boiler at a precise temperature, so that the water used to pull an espresso shot is the same at the beginning of every shot. That's it!
Manage the boiler's temperature so each and every shot begins at the same temperature, to within <1°F. Pretty simple stuff to be creating such interest, wouldn't you say?
-
Are you implying that the great state of Texas is defined by its cheer leaders?
???
Nope...they just set the standard for 5, maybe 6s. ;)
-
Angel's are spiritual entities who do not argue.
I don't believe there are any living in the great state of Texas.
Must've never been by SMU ;D
Or seen the cheer squad at Texas Tech? :angel: every one of them! :angel:
Yeah...that pretty much sets middle ground for the state ;)
Are you implying that the great state of Texas is defined by its cheer leaders?
???
Better to be judged by the beauty of our gals than have them judged to be prime, choice, or select by the Canadian equivalent of the USDA. 8) 8) 8)
-
snip
Pretty simple stuff to be creating such interest, wouldn't you say?
(http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/sioncampus/10/08/monday.awards/t1_cheer.jpg)
I'd say
-
snip
Pretty simple stuff to be creating such interest, wouldn't you say?
([url]http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/sioncampus/10/08/monday.awards/t1_cheer.jpg[/url])
I'd say
Move aside Mrs T3, da boy's in love again! ♥ ;D
-
It seems a lot of folks are confused about the purpose behind PIDing an espresso machine. A PID, in this application, has but one function; managing the temperature of the water in the boiler at a precise temperature, so that the water used to pull an espresso shot is the same at the beginning of every shot. That's it!
Manage the boiler's temperature so each and every shot begins at the same temperature, to within <1°F. Pretty simple stuff to be creating such interest, wouldn't you say?
Considering the importance of maintaining proper brewing temperature for the bean ... I'd say this deserves a lot of interest.
:)
-
Angel's are spiritual entities who do not argue.
I don't believe there are any living in the great state of Texas.
Must've never been by SMU ;D
Or seen the cheer squad at Texas Tech? :angel: every one of them! :angel:
Yeah...that pretty much sets middle ground for the state ;)
Are you implying that the great state of Texas is defined by its cheer leaders?
???
Better to be judged by the beauty of our gals than have them judged to be prime, choice, or select by the Canadian equivalent of the USDA. 8) 8) 8)
As far as I'm aware ... we do not have USDA select (http://www.cbef.com/beefquality.htm).
Now there is something that Texas is known for.
:o
-
Chris Coffee has the absolute best customer service in the business and in fact in any business as far as I have experienced myself and from others I know who use them as a trusted vendor. If there was a problem with a new V2 La Spaz I firmly believe they would have made it right regardless of how much time or effort it took and on their dime (as it should be). I have had warranty part failure and a new one was drop shipped to my door arriving the next day. This seems like a pretty simple problem of offset temperature. The V2 is programmed so the set temperature is that of the water hitting the puck at the group and not the boiler temperature ( a nice feature in my opinion). If the owner was prepping good coffee beds with no channeling and getting horrible sour espresso it would be a simple diagnosis that the temperature was too low. Did this person attempt to contact Chris and get a fix? I am totally confident it would have been done in short order. There is a very long list of highly satisfied customers from Chris Coffee in good part because they take care of the customer needs after purchase too.
I have had the exact opposite experience with Chris from ChrisCoffee. When I purchased my first machine, an Elektra MCaL 5 years ago, from 1st-line.com I realized it did not come with a 49mm tamp, just the small generic plastic one. So, I perused the internet and noticed that ChrisCoffee staited the PFs took a 48mm tamper line-to-line, while another online vendor stated it took a 49mm tamp line-to-line. While, I contacted Chris and told him about the discrepency between sites. He proceeded to belittle and insult the other vendors industry experience and business setup. I happen to be a skeptic of anyone who is that outwardly abrassive and confident in anything, so I purchased a 48mm Reg Barber from Chris and a 49mm tamp from the other vendor. I did all of this with complete reassurance from both vendors that I could return the tamp that ended up not being line-to-line and receive all of my money back. While, Chris was wrong and did not stand behind his word, he took the return with a 20% restocking fee taken from the original total paid. He then proceeded to change the recommended PTamp size for an Elektra MCaL on his site from a 48mm to a 49mm. Not only did he not know what he was talking about, but he tried to verbally discredit another vendor, who was correct, and ended up not keeping his word. He is a stereotypical know-it-all. I have not purchased anything from him since, and will never in the future.
-
As far as I'm aware ... we do not have USDA select ([url]http://www.cbef.com/beefquality.htm[/url]).
Now there is something that Texas is known for.
:o
So, when I'm having a cup of coffee with my Canadian friends and a pretty girl (admittedly a rarity) walks by, I'm mistaken when they say 'eh' and I interpret that as approval in general? They're really rating her a grade A, equivalent to our Prime? How chauvinistic! ::)
-
As far as I'm aware ... we do not have USDA select ([url]http://www.cbef.com/beefquality.htm[/url]).
Now there is something that Texas is known for.
:o
So, when I'm having a cup of coffee with my Canadian friends and a pretty girl (admittedly a rarity) walks by, I'm mistaken when they say 'eh' and I interpret that as approval in general? They're really rating her a grade A, equivalent to our Prime? How chauvinistic! ::)
You've got to admit it sounds a lot less chauvinistic than that is USDA select.
:o
-
Chris Coffee has the absolute best customer service in the business and in fact in any business as far as I have experienced myself and from others I know who use them as a trusted vendor. If there was a problem with a new V2 La Spaz I firmly believe they would have made it right regardless of how much time or effort it took and on their dime (as it should be). I have had warranty part failure and a new one was drop shipped to my door arriving the next day. This seems like a pretty simple problem of offset temperature. The V2 is programmed so the set temperature is that of the water hitting the puck at the group and not the boiler temperature ( a nice feature in my opinion). If the owner was prepping good coffee beds with no channeling and getting horrible sour espresso it would be a simple diagnosis that the temperature was too low. Did this person attempt to contact Chris and get a fix? I am totally confident it would have been done in short order. There is a very long list of highly satisfied customers from Chris Coffee in good part because they take care of the customer needs after purchase too.
I have had the exact opposite experience with Chris from ChrisCoffee. When I purchased my first machine, an Elektra MCaL 5 years ago, from 1st-line.com I realized it did not come with a 49mm tamp, just the small generic plastic one. So, I perused the internet and noticed that ChrisCoffee staited the PFs took a 48mm tamper line-to-line, while another online vendor stated it took a 49mm tamp line-to-line. While, I contacted Chris and told him about the discrepency between sites. He proceeded to belittle and insult the other vendors industry experience and business setup. I happen to be a skeptic of anyone who is that outwardly abrassive and confident in anything, so I purchased a 48mm Reg Barber from Chris and a 49mm tamp from the other vendor. I did all of this with complete reassurance from both vendors that I could return the tamp that ended up not being line-to-line and receive all of my money back. While, Chris was wrong and did not stand behind his word, he took the return with a 20% restocking fee taken from the original total paid. He then proceeded to change the recommended PTamp size for an Elektra MCaL on his site from a 48mm to a 49mm. Not only did he not know what he was talking about, but he tried to verbally discredit another vendor, who was correct, and ended up not keeping his word. He is a stereotypical know-it-all. I have not purchased anything from him since, and will never in the future.
And my comments were not directed towards Chris in any way, other than to say I expected an expensive machine to arrive completely tuned.
-
As far as I'm aware ... we do not have USDA select ([url]http://www.cbef.com/beefquality.htm[/url]).
Now there is something that Texas is known for.
:o
So, when I'm having a cup of coffee with my Canadian friends and a pretty girl (admittedly a rarity) walks by, I'm mistaken when they say 'eh' and I interpret that as approval in general? They're really rating her a grade A, equivalent to our Prime? How chauvinistic! ::)
You've got to admit it sounds a lot less chauvinistic than that is USDA select.
:o
eh? or A? Whatever! :-\
-
As far as I'm aware ... we do not have USDA select ([url]http://www.cbef.com/beefquality.htm[/url]).
Now there is something that Texas is known for.
:o
So, when I'm having a cup of coffee with my Canadian friends and a pretty girl (admittedly a rarity) walks by, I'm mistaken when they say 'eh' and I interpret that as approval in general? They're really rating her a grade A, equivalent to our Prime? How chauvinistic! ::)
You've got to admit it sounds a lot less chauvinistic than that is USDA select.
:o
eh? or A? Whatever! :-\
Eh is an expression that requests consent ... as ... "that is a nice looking girl ... eh?" ... not "that is a nice looking girl ... let's grade her an "A"".
::)
-
As far as I'm aware ... we do not have USDA select ([url]http://www.cbef.com/beefquality.htm[/url]).
Now there is something that Texas is known for.
:o
So, when I'm having a cup of coffee with my Canadian friends and a pretty girl (admittedly a rarity) walks by, I'm mistaken when they say 'eh' and I interpret that as approval in general? They're really rating her a grade A, equivalent to our Prime? How chauvinistic! ::)
You've got to admit it sounds a lot less chauvinistic than that is USDA select.
:o
eh? or A? Whatever! :-\
Eh is an expression that requests consent ... as ... "that is a nice looking girl ... eh?" ... not "that is a nice looking girl ... let's grade her an "A"".
::)
Are you going to stick to that lame-ass explanation? You're saying a Canadian would never look at a pretty girl* and rate her? It must be true then, what they say about Canadians! ;)
* I apologize, I forgot how scarce pretty girls are north of 49. My bad! :(
-
As far as I'm aware ... we do not have USDA select ([url]http://www.cbef.com/beefquality.htm[/url]).
Now there is something that Texas is known for.
:o
So, when I'm having a cup of coffee with my Canadian friends and a pretty girl (admittedly a rarity) walks by, I'm mistaken when they say 'eh' and I interpret that as approval in general? They're really rating her a grade A, equivalent to our Prime? How chauvinistic! ::)
You've got to admit it sounds a lot less chauvinistic than that is USDA select.
:o
eh? or A? Whatever! :-\
Eh is an expression that requests consent ... as ... "that is a nice looking girl ... eh?" ... not "that is a nice looking girl ... let's grade her an "A"".
::)
Are you going to stick to that lame-ass explanation? You're saying a Canadian would never look at a pretty girl* and rate her? It must be true then, what they say about Canadians! ;)
* I apologize, I forgot how scarce pretty girls are north of 49. My bad! :(
Certainly not as you would rate beef ... more closely to the movie "10" with Bo Derek.
The only thing scarce north of the 49th is a good scanning of your eyes of the abundantly pretty girls here.
:angel:
-
As far as I'm aware ... we do not have USDA select ([url]http://www.cbef.com/beefquality.htm[/url]).
Now there is something that Texas is known for.
:o
So, when I'm having a cup of coffee with my Canadian friends and a pretty girl (admittedly a rarity) walks by, I'm mistaken when they say 'eh' and I interpret that as approval in general? They're really rating her a grade A, equivalent to our Prime? How chauvinistic! ::)
You've got to admit it sounds a lot less chauvinistic than that is USDA select.
:o
eh? or A? Whatever! :-\
Eh is an expression that requests consent ... as ... "that is a nice looking girl ... eh?" ... not "that is a nice looking girl ... let's grade her an "A"".
::)
Are you going to stick to that lame-ass explanation? You're saying a Canadian would never look at a pretty girl* and rate her? It must be true then, what they say about Canadians! ;)
* I apologize, I forgot how scarce pretty girls are north of 49. My bad! :(
Certainly not as you would rate beef ... more closely to the movie "10" with Bo Derek.
The only thing scarce north of the 49th is a good scanning of your eyes of the abundantly pretty girls here.
:angel:
Hey Mike, I didn't mean to insult any Canadian sacred cows (if that's how you refer to them that's your business). The young lasses I met in Canada the last time I was north of 49 were truly a joy to behold - even if they were tourists from Germany. I'm sure that if I looked diligently enough I could find lots of natives to ogle, right?
-
I had to scroll down the last 5 pages of this odd thread.....
Has anybody challenged anyone to box yet? :angel:
-
As far as I'm aware ... we do not have USDA select ([url]http://www.cbef.com/beefquality.htm[/url]).
Now there is something that Texas is known for.
:o
So, when I'm having a cup of coffee with my Canadian friends and a pretty girl (admittedly a rarity) walks by, I'm mistaken when they say 'eh' and I interpret that as approval in general? They're really rating her a grade A, equivalent to our Prime? How chauvinistic! ::)
You've got to admit it sounds a lot less chauvinistic than that is USDA select.
:o
eh? or A? Whatever! :-\
Eh is an expression that requests consent ... as ... "that is a nice looking girl ... eh?" ... not "that is a nice looking girl ... let's grade her an "A"".
::)
Are you going to stick to that lame-ass explanation? You're saying a Canadian would never look at a pretty girl* and rate her? It must be true then, what they say about Canadians! ;)
* I apologize, I forgot how scarce pretty girls are north of 49. My bad! :(
Certainly not as you would rate beef ... more closely to the movie "10" with Bo Derek.
The only thing scarce north of the 49th is a good scanning of your eyes of the abundantly pretty girls here.
:angel:
Hey Mike, I didn't mean to insult any Canadian sacred cows (if that's how you refer to them that's your business). The young lasses I met in Canada the last time I was north of 49 were truly a joy to behold - even if they were tourists from Germany. I'm sure that if I looked diligently enough I could find lots of natives to ogle, right?
But of course.
:)
-
I had to scroll down the last 5 pages of this odd thread.....
Has anybody challenged anyone to box yet? :angel:
I believe the possibility that this may go to the octagon is imminent.
;D
-
I had to scroll down the last 5 pages of this odd thread.....
Has anybody challenged anyone to box yet? :angel:
I believe the possibility that this may go to the octagon is imminent.
;D
My money's on Tex the Tank Harmon.
He may not be good on the ground n' pound, but you could deffinately catch a bad one.
-
I had to scroll down the last 5 pages of this odd thread.....
Has anybody challenged anyone to box yet? :angel:
I believe the possibility that this may go to the octagon is imminent.
;D
My money's on Tex the Tank Harmon.
He may not be good on the ground n' pound, but you could deffinately catch a bad one.
Put your money on the other guy - I'm too pretty to fight!
-
I had to scroll down the last 5 pages of this odd thread.....
Has anybody challenged anyone to box yet? :angel:
I believe the possibility that this may go to the octagon is imminent.
;D
My money's on Tex the Tank Harmon.
He may not be good on the ground n' pound, but you could deffinately catch a bad one.
Put your money on the other guy - I'm too pretty to fight!
Besides ... the smoke from your ciggy will choke the opponent out.
;D
-
I had to scroll down the last 5 pages of this odd thread.....
Has anybody challenged anyone to box yet? :angel:
I believe the possibility that this may go to the octagon is imminent.
;D
My money's on Tex the Tank Harmon.
He may not be good on the ground n' pound, but you could deffinately catch a bad one.
Put your money on the other guy - I'm too pretty to fight!
Besides ... the smoke from your ciggy will choke the opponent out.
;D
that could be taken the wrong way ;D
-
But of course.
:)
No relatives from the hinterland, OK?
(http://memeart.tripod.com/cows/cow1.gif)
-
I had to scroll down the last 5 pages of this odd thread.....
Has anybody challenged anyone to box yet? :angel:
I believe the possibility that this may go to the octagon is imminent.
;D
My money's on Tex the Tank Harmon.
He may not be good on the ground n' pound, but you could deffinately catch a bad one.
Put your money on the other guy - I'm too pretty to fight!
Besides ... the smoke from your ciggy will choke the opponent out.
;D
I only smoke when I'm rubbed hard by a beautiful woman! ;D
You were looking over the fence again?
???
-
I had to scroll down the last 5 pages of this odd thread.....
Has anybody challenged anyone to box yet? :angel:
:thefinger: :laughing4: :bootyshake:
-
:thefinger: :laughing4: :bootyshake:
.
The Three Stooges - Moe Slap Happy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4ZgVRJ-H8U#)
-
:thefinger: :laughing4: :bootyshake:
.
The Three Stooges - Moe Slap Happy ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4ZgVRJ-H8U#[/url])
We'll keep you posted if it comes to fisticuffs ;)
-
:thefinger: :laughing4: :bootyshake:
.
The Three Stooges - Moe Slap Happy ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4ZgVRJ-H8U#[/url])
We'll keep you posted if it comes to fisticuffs ;)
:laughing4:
-
22 pages in and I still think there might have been about 4 pages of good content, but at least this thread got me looking at lever machines, reading old homebarista.com lever threads again (which are quite good) and contemplating my next move - if any.
Shout out to Warrior372 who helped inch me further along the lever thought path, oh and also thanks by default to John, who keeps mumbling about lever but at this rate I might have one before he does and that's almost enough incentive for me to look a little harder. ;-)
-
and also thanks by default to John, who keeps mumbling about lever but at this rate I might have one before he does and that's almost enough incentive for me to look a little harder. ;-)
I'm sure you will beat me..... and I hate you. :P
But I'm on the way. ;)
-
22 pages in and I still think there might have been about 4 pages of good content, but at least this thread got me looking at lever machines, reading old homebarista.com lever threads again (which are quite good) and contemplating my next move - if any.
Shout out to Warrior372 who helped inch me further along the lever thought path, oh and also thanks by default to John, who keeps mumbling about lever but at this rate I might have one before he does and that's almost enough incentive for me to look a little harder. ;-)
You could just get a low-end Gaggia and put a PID and a lever on it. It would pull killer shots as good as any sexy chrome La San Marco; it's all about the barista's skill ya know.
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22 pages in and I still think there might have been about 4 pages of good content, but at least this thread got me looking at lever machines, reading old homebarista.com lever threads again (which are quite good) and contemplating my next move - if any.
Shout out to Warrior372 who helped inch me further along the lever thought path, oh and also thanks by default to John, who keeps mumbling about lever but at this rate I might have one before he does and that's almost enough incentive for me to look a little harder. ;-)
You could just get a low-end Gaggia and put a PID and a lever on it. It would pull killer shots as good as any sexy chrome La San Marco; it's all about the barista's skill ya know.
Ahem peter,
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and also thanks by default to John, who keeps mumbling about lever but at this rate I might have one before he does and that's almost enough incentive for me to look a little harder. ;-)
I'm sure you will beat me..... and I hate you. :P
But I'm on the way. ;)
I'm not sure I will beat you, but I'm thinking about heading down that path. ;-)
My conflict is over the Brewtus II. I'm not sure I can justify keeping two espresso machines on the counter as much as I would like to. I don't want to give up the BII for several reasons, primarily it's great microfoam abilities, it's ability to deal with 10 adults wanting drinks on a Saturday afternoon and of course it's dependability to put out good shots. If I knew there was a lever machine out there that could allow for the creation of the same milk, same espresso demand and repeatability my decision would be easier.
I understand from quite a bit of reading over at HB that a lever and a rotary produce two different kinds of espresso's, I'm ok with that. Maybe, just maybe, it's time I dipped my toe into that stream. I also understand reading over at HB that the lever guys seem to feel the espresso is superior in ability to demonstrate the subtleties and many layers within the coffee, maybe add more clarity to the shot, etc and I'm down with that. Which of course brings me back to the discussion you and I have had many times which is 'What is espresso?' and I have a few opinions on that one, but none of them preclude shifting to a lever.
Hanging onto the BII and a lever would allow me to compare, create baselines and then after a period of time of learning enough on the lever I could pull shots on the particular machine according to the need/feeling. But that's a bit of a luxury for me I think and that's what's causing me to question what to do.
If I flip the BII locally, the cash flow would make a lever purchase more palatable and I could execute on the machine of choice in a quicker fashion - whatever that machine might be.
No answers yet, mostly just questions rolling around in my head. ;-)
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No answers yet, mostly just questions rolling around in my head. ;-)
I've been thinking it over for some time now and I can't see either of us giving up pump driven machines for levers.
I also can't imagine either of us not having lever machines.
Start imagining life with 2 machines on the counter. 8)
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No answers yet, mostly just questions rolling around in my head. ;-)
I've been thinking it over for some time now and I can't see either of us giving up pump driven machines for levers.
I also can't imagine either of us not having lever machines.
Start imagining life with 2 machines on the counter. 8)
Oh I've already started that imaginative imagery. Then I've also considered a BII and Lever sitting next to each other through the not quite as imaginative pair of sunglasses that my wife would be wearing. ;-)
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I also understand reading over at HB that the lever guys seem to feel the espresso is superior in ability to demonstrate the subtleties and many layers within the coffee, maybe add more clarity to the shot, etc and I'm down with that. Which of course brings me back to the discussion you and I have had many times which is 'What is espresso?' and I have a few opinions on that one, but none of them preclude shifting to a lever.
This is the vital issue.
I have a hunch I know how this is going to shake out and my intuition tells me that after a long hike down the lever trail it's going to be like water or air.
As in water or air, pick one.
My imagination has me enjoying and hating a few years with it and experiencing those days of "oh yeah, lever shows me all these layers and clarity, and I'm all over it" but then maybe a few years later.....water or air. Pick one.
All based on...well, you know.
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I also understand reading over at HB that the lever guys seem to feel the espresso is superior in ability to demonstrate the subtleties and many layers within the coffee, maybe add more clarity to the shot, etc and I'm down with that. Which of course brings me back to the discussion you and I have had many times which is 'What is espresso?' and I have a few opinions on that one, but none of them preclude shifting to a lever.
This is the vital issue.
I have a hunch I know how this is going to shake out and my intuition tells me that after a long hike down the lever trail it's going to be like water or air.
As in water or air, pick one.
My imagination has me enjoying and hating a few years with it and experiencing those days of "oh yeah, lever shows me all these layers and clarity, and I'm all over it" but then maybe a few years later.....water or air. Pick one.
All based on...well, you know.
Indeed.
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Indeed.
This is why they made the BII with the ability to slide over a little bit. :angel:
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Indeed.
This is why they made the BII with the ability to slide over a little bit. :angel:
Well it does have those super slider snow skate discs on the bottom to make moving it around on the counter all that much easier. Still, Doreen's eyeballs will bug out, hahaha.
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I have read the last 5 pages or so and I think not much has happened after the post on the Isomac Millenium II. I also found a Tea for $600. Neither is within driving distance. I would have to hope the machine is available and that they are willing to ship.
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Indeed.
This is why they made the BII with the ability to slide over a little bit. :angel:
And the ability to be sold to Py at a reasonable price.
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I have read the last 5 pages or so and I think not much has happened after the post on the Isomac Millenium II. I also found a Tea for $600. Neither is within driving distance. I would have to hope the machine is available and that they are willing to ship.
The Tea ll is what I have Py. It is not a double boiler nor does it have PID ... but it does pull some very nice espresso shot and foams like a choo choo train.
;)
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I have read the last 5 pages or so and I think not much has happened after the post on the Isomac Millenium II. I also found a Tea for $600. Neither is within driving distance. I would have to hope the machine is available and that they are willing to ship.
Mike is the one to ask about the Tea - that's his baby. My experiences with the E61-type lever group has been less than positive. That may have been more my fault than the machine.
I had one back in the 80's and I could never master the flipping of the levers to get a consistent cup of coffee. Management of group temp was the culprit - I think. I don't think the flush was cooling the group - now that I know more about HX machines I think that if I'd pulled more water before pulling a shot I'd have gotten better results.
But the Tea is a beautiful machine and $600 seems like a good price.
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Indeed.
This is why they made the BII with the ability to slide over a little bit. :angel:
And the ability to be sold to Py at a reasonable price.
Bhaha, one of my neighbor wants it and has been bugging for something like it ever since he first tasted my four ouncers, I'm still not that close to letting it go yet, in fact I'm off to go pull a couple of shots on it right now. ;-)
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Indeed.
This is why they made the BII with the ability to slide over a little bit. :angel:
And the ability to be sold to Py at a reasonable price.
$300 plus S&H and this (http://cgi.ebay.com/OLD-BRASILIA-CENTURY-EXPRESSO-MACHINE-GOLD-ACCENTS-/190403377217) could be setup in you home by July! Ask milo about Brasilia machine - I understand he's using something similar to this - without the pimped dome.
This looks like a good fixer-upper; probably less than a hundred or so in parts and some elbow grease would make this baby hum!
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Local pickup only on that piece. The truth is I'd like to get something locally off Craigslist, Kijiji or eBay that I can see before I buy. It probably won't happen so then I'm left with putting a lot of trust into a party that I don't know. I've got some leads already, I'm PM'ing right now which has been really helpful.
I'm leaning more towards an MCaL or something like that, though I am open to all solutions. The priority still lies with excellent espresso, repeatability, ability to do multi-shots and give good milk. So far it seems the MCaL's limitation seems to be it ability to do much more than 3-4 shots before it starts to overheat.
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Local pickup only on that piece. The truth is I'd like to get something locally off Craigslist, Kijiji or eBay that I can see before I buy. It probably won't happen so then I'm left with putting a lot of trust into a party that I don't know. I've got some leads already, I'm PM'ing right now which has been really helpful.
I'm leaning more towards an MCaL or something like that, though I am open to all solutions. The priority still lies with excellent espresso, repeatability, ability to do multi-shots and give good milk. So far it seems the MCaL's limitation seems to be it ability to do much more than 3-4 shots before it starts to overheat.
Seems like Orphan Espresso always has a few levers available. Have you checked with them?
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Local pickup only on that piece. The truth is I'd like to get something locally off Craigslist, Kijiji or eBay that I can see before I buy. It probably won't happen so then I'm left with putting a lot of trust into a party that I don't know. I've got some leads already, I'm PM'ing right now which has been really helpful.
I'm leaning more towards an MCaL or something like that, though I am open to all solutions. The priority still lies with excellent espresso, repeatability, ability to do multi-shots and give good milk. So far it seems the MCaL's limitation seems to be it ability to do much more than 3-4 shots before it starts to overheat.
That's preferable, but if you know someone in the area that could drop by for a look-see and could palletize it for you, I believe you'd be OK.
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http://www.orphanespresso.com/Elektra-A-Leva-MCAL_c_211.html (http://www.orphanespresso.com/Elektra-A-Leva-MCAL_c_211.html)
Shore is pretty. Doug and Barb are very good to work with. Suggest putting in a call to them and ask him to alert you when the machine of your needs visits Doug's workbench.
Doug always does a nice job laying out the photos. See the last four links here:
http://www.orphanespresso.com/Vintage-Espresso-Machine-Tours_ep_561-1.html (http://www.orphanespresso.com/Vintage-Espresso-Machine-Tours_ep_561-1.html)
B|Java
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[url]http://www.orphanespresso.com/Elektra-A-Leva-MCAL_c_211.html[/url] ([url]http://www.orphanespresso.com/Elektra-A-Leva-MCAL_c_211.html[/url])
Shore is pretty. Doug and Barb are very good to work with. Suggest putting in a call to them and ask him to alert you when the machine of your needs visits Doug's workbench.
B|Java
Or maybe splurge on a new one:
http://www.1st-line.net/cgi-bin/category.cgi?item=ART.S1 (http://www.1st-line.net/cgi-bin/category.cgi?item=ART.S1)
You know you want a brand new shiny one.
:)
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I do.
:drooooool:
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[url]http://www.orphanespresso.com/Elektra-A-Leva-MCAL_c_211.html[/url] ([url]http://www.orphanespresso.com/Elektra-A-Leva-MCAL_c_211.html[/url])
Shore is pretty. Doug and Barb are very good to work with. Suggest putting in a call to them and ask him to alert you when the machine of your needs visits Doug's workbench.
Doug always does a nice job laying out the photos. See the last four links here:
[url]http://www.orphanespresso.com/Vintage-Espresso-Machine-Tours_ep_561-1.html[/url] ([url]http://www.orphanespresso.com/Vintage-Espresso-Machine-Tours_ep_561-1.html[/url])
B|Java
Shoot, if I'd have known anyone wanted one of these I had a line on one last week for $275, plus S&H. Looks like it's gone now - the CL listing is deleted. FWIW: These are no better than La Pavoni levers.
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Speaking of which ... La Pavoni Lever $525.00:
http://knoxville.craigslist.org/app/1699157601.html (http://knoxville.craigslist.org/app/1699157601.html)
:)
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I would not pay that much for a Pavoni, you can get them for under $200 pretty easily.
Tex, I say that Elektra as well, and immediately looked a few days ago when Staylor mentioned interest. My take on new Elektras is a bit odd. I love the shots you can pull on them, they steam better than any other lever and you can make microfoam on it so so easily, but the shiny / flashiness of it is a double edged sword. They get dirty so easily and regardless of how meticulous you are with cleaning it (I am very obsessive compulsive when it comes to keeping my machines clean) micro-scratches are inevitable. For that reason I told myself I would never buy one new again, especially when you can find them on CL for $500 or less somewhat regularly. Although, I guess if you have $1,000+ to spend (you can get them shipped to you from Europe new for about $1,065) on a new one it is always nice to know the machine is new, in perfect condition with no problems. It is always nice to have the original box IMO too.
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I would not pay that much for a Pavoni, you can get them for under $200 pretty easily.
Tex, I say that Elektra as well, and immediately looked a few days ago when Staylor mentioned interest. My take on new Elektras is a bit odd. I love the shots you can pull on them, they steam better than any other lever and you can make microfoam on it so so easily, but the shiny / flashiness of it is a double edged sword. They get dirty so easily and regardless of how meticulous you are with cleaning it (I am very obsessive compulsive when it comes to keeping my machines clean) micro-scratches are inevitable. For that reason I told myself I would never buy one new again, especially when you can find them on CL for $500 or less somewhat regularly. Although, I guess if you have $1,000+ to spend (you can get them shipped to you from Europe new for about $1,065) on a new one it is always nice to know the machine is new, in perfect condition with no problems. It is always nice to have the original box IMO too.
The seller and I agreed on $275 and I'd send him a UPS label; but I backed out - just too much on my plate right now. The Elektra MC A Leva is OK, though I actually prefer this one (http://www.1st-line.net/cgi-bin/category.cgi?item=ART.SXC&type=store). There was one kicking around CL for a long time that I'd negotiated down to $850, but I didn't pull the trigger. Gotta leave something on the table for everyone else once in a while, right? :angel:
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Speaking of which ... La Pavoni Lever $525.00:
[url]http://knoxville.craigslist.org/app/1699157601.html[/url] ([url]http://knoxville.craigslist.org/app/1699157601.html[/url])
:)
Too pricey.
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Here's a sweet looking machine for pyment. (http://www.costco.ca/Browse/ProductSet.aspx?Prodid=10320113) I wonder if Costco Canada would ship to the US?
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Here's a sweet looking machine for pyment. ([url]http://www.costco.ca/Browse/ProductSet.aspx?Prodid=10320113[/url]) I wonder if Costco Canada would ship to the US?
Robert ... didn't you say you were not a fan of thermo-block heating elements?
???
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I took a look at Orphan Espresso a couple of days ago, interesting site for sure. I appreciate what they are doing over there. That Conti looks interesting but the price doesn't make sense to me, it will make sense to someone though I'm sure.
I've done lots more reading over the last day or so. Learning a lot more about levers, and also learning how little I know about levers. ;-)
Still really interested in pursuing the acquisition and will continue the research.
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Here's a sweet looking machine for pyment. ([url]http://www.costco.ca/Browse/ProductSet.aspx?Prodid=10320113[/url]) I wonder if Costco Canada would ship to the US?
Robert ... didn't you say you were not a fan of thermo-block heating elements?
???
Yeah, but last time I looked, these are built on the Le'lit PL041 boiler. I'm checking with Costco about this, but I doubt they've changed design?
But I wouldn't buy one of these anyway - $1400 Canadian for a pimped PL041 that sold for <$400? No thanks!
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Here's a sweet looking machine for pyment. ([url]http://www.costco.ca/Browse/ProductSet.aspx?Prodid=10320113[/url]) I wonder if Costco Canada would ship to the US?
Robert ... didn't you say you were not a fan of thermo-block heating elements?
???
Yeah, but last time I looked, these are built on the Le'lit PL041 boiler. I'm checking with Costco about this, but I doubt they've changed design?
But I wouldn't buy one of these anyway - $1400 Canadian for a pimped PL041 that sold for <$400? No thanks!
You're paying for the WOW look.
Bet it doesn't make better coffee than a Gaggia!
:)
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You're paying for the WOW look.
Bet it doesn't make better coffee than a Gaggia!
:)
Nothing's better than a Gaggia, dontcha know? >:D
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Here are two lever-related threads from alt.coffee, back when coffee was the subject for discussion.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.coffee/browse_thread/thread/c755b101aab88afe/09de2457b9256bcd?lnk=gst&q=danny+lever+gaskets#09de2457b9256bcd (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.coffee/browse_thread/thread/c755b101aab88afe/09de2457b9256bcd?lnk=gst&q=danny+lever+gaskets#09de2457b9256bcd)
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.coffee/browse_thread/thread/8861e2275a1a5962/e08d9ff8a1452a22 (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.coffee/browse_thread/thread/8861e2275a1a5962/e08d9ff8a1452a22)
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You're paying for the WOW look.
Bet it doesn't make better coffee than a Gaggia!
:)
Nothing's better than a Gaggia, dontcha know? >:D
(http://www.feebleminds-gifs.com/peeing-man.gif)(http://www.greencoffeebuyingclub.com/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=7701;type=avatar)
If it's inevitable that this thread devolves into a pissing contest I win! ;D ;D
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Narrowing things down, that's enough lever research for the evening, so now I have to make a decision between these two:
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Rogue would be my vote.
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I would do them both ... at least once.
:o
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I would do them both ... at least once.
:o
+1
You can have as many beers as you want! It's women you should be selective about. ;D
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.. now I have to make a decision between these two:
Well....I have a feeling this one is going to work out fine. 8)
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The next question is am I going to have to upgrade my Rocky for this?
BTW, just found a Gino Rossi RR45 for $175. Presuming I have to replace the burrs, would this work?
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The next question is am I going to have to upgrade my Rocky for this?
BTW, just found a Gino Rossi RR45 for $175. Presuming I have to replace the burrs, would this work?
From what I understand they are a little noisy but the grind they produce is exceptional.
:)
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The next question is am I going to have to upgrade my Rocky for this?
Depends....but it sure won't hurt.
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The next question is am I going to have to upgrade my Rocky for this?
BTW, just found a Gino Rossi RR45 for $175. Presuming I have to replace the burrs, would this work?
From what I understand they are a little noisy but the grind they produce is exceptional.
:)
Mine isn't much louder than the my KA Proline...I actually took some measurements once and recall the numbers being pretty close.
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I sent off an email to the seller, But am leaning towards keeping the rocky for now and watching eBay for a used espresso machine nearby that will meet my needs.
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and for staylor/John
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/bfs/1783454724.html (http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/bfs/1783454724.html)
http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/bfs/1786652226.html (http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/bfs/1786652226.html)
If one of you buy the one that includes the Mazzer Super Jolly. That would make a good finder's fee. ;D
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and for staylor/John
[url]http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/bfs/1783454724.html[/url] ([url]http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/bfs/1783454724.html[/url])
[url]http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/bfs/1786652226.html[/url] ([url]http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/bfs/1786652226.html[/url])
If one of you buy the one that includes the Mazzer Super Jolly. That would make a good finder's fee. ;D
I can just see that Astoria gracing the bar at a "gentleman's club" in rural Nevada. Cathouse chic!
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That's a lotta machine right there.
I'm thinking the Ponte Vecchio Lusso 2 group is starting to look pretty good, unless something pops up from a connection another GCBC member has.
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I'm thinking the Ponte Vecchio Lusso 2 group is starting to look pretty good...
Do it, do it. ;)
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Ohhhhh, I've got my 'do it' on.
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Astoria AL-1 Hand Lever Espresso machine:
http://raleigh.craigslist.org/for/1777530908.html (http://raleigh.craigslist.org/for/1777530908.html) ($1800.00)
Do you hear it calling you Shaun?
:)
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Ok ... here is a deal ... La Pavoni Lever ... $225.00
http://seattle.craigslist.org/est/app/1787420373.html (http://seattle.craigslist.org/est/app/1787420373.html)
Solid Brass!
:)
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Astoria AL-1 Hand Lever Espresso machine:
[url]http://raleigh.craigslist.org/for/1777530908.html[/url] ([url]http://raleigh.craigslist.org/for/1777530908.html[/url]) ($1800.00)
Do you hear it calling you Shaun?
:)
Not Shaun, but I hear a distinct Tex, Tex,,, off in the distance. Maybe I can borrow a friends pickup and then it's road trip time! I wonder what the seller would really take for it? ???
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Brand new Ponte Vecchio Lusso TWO Group CHROME Espresso #1329.00
http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/ponte_vecchio/ponte_vecchio_lusso_2group.htm (http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/ponte_vecchio/ponte_vecchio_lusso_2group.htm)
Choices ... choices.
:)
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Astoria AL-1 Hand Lever Espresso machine:
[url]http://raleigh.craigslist.org/for/1777530908.html[/url] ([url]http://raleigh.craigslist.org/for/1777530908.html[/url]) ($1800.00)
Do you hear it calling you Shaun?
:)
Not Shaun, but I hear a distinct Tex, Tex,,, off in the distance. Maybe I can borrow a friends pickup and then it's road trip time! I wonder what the seller would really take for it? ???
Go on Robert ... take a trip over and try out the machine. Bring your best Sambucca with you and spike the shots you pull. Get him nice and happy and he'll probably let you have the machine for a song.
;)
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I think this one has great "wife please' factor!
(http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o275/albulba/Rapollo-4.jpg)
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I think this one has great "wife please' factor!
([url]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o275/albulba/Rapollo-4.jpg[/url])
Yeah ... saw that ... just don't let her see the hole in your wallet after its home.
;D
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New Astoria Rapallo without the bling.
http://www.espressoparts.com/ASTORIA_RAPALLO_AL2 (http://www.espressoparts.com/ASTORIA_RAPALLO_AL2)
Victoria Arduino Athena 2 group.
http://www.espressoparts.com/NS_ATHENA_2LEVA_CO (http://www.espressoparts.com/NS_ATHENA_2LEVA_CO)
Like the copper, it comes in chrome if that is your preference.
Rancilio's lever:
http://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/Rancilio-Classe-6-LE-Lever-Control-Commercial-Espr-p/scg14030-16.htm (http://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/Rancilio-Classe-6-LE-Lever-Control-Commercial-Espr-p/scg14030-16.htm)
Seattle has a 5% off code now.
Gaggia's Achille
http://www.essentialespresso.com/Gaggia/achille.cfm? (http://www.essentialespresso.com/Gaggia/achille.cfm?)
There 20% off Gaggia code is GASAVE20
Another Gaggia
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0001KOA6E/ref=asc_df_B0001KOA6E1140922?tag=the004-20&creative=380333&creativeASIN=B0001KOA6E&linkCode=asn (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0001KOA6E/ref=asc_df_B0001KOA6E1140922?tag=the004-20&creative=380333&creativeASIN=B0001KOA6E&linkCode=asn)
another Astoria
http://store.baristatools.com/asdialmaleop2.html (http://store.baristatools.com/asdialmaleop2.html)
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New Astoria Rapallo without the bling.
[url]http://www.espressoparts.com/ASTORIA_RAPALLO_AL2[/url] ([url]http://www.espressoparts.com/ASTORIA_RAPALLO_AL2[/url])
Victoria Arduino Athena 2 group.
[url]http://www.espressoparts.com/NS_ATHENA_2LEVA_CO[/url] ([url]http://www.espressoparts.com/NS_ATHENA_2LEVA_CO[/url])
Like the copper, it comes in chrome if that is your preference.
Rancilio's lever:
[url]http://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/Rancilio-Classe-6-LE-Lever-Control-Commercial-Espr-p/scg14030-16.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/Rancilio-Classe-6-LE-Lever-Control-Commercial-Espr-p/scg14030-16.htm[/url])
Seattle has a 5% off code now.
Gaggia's Achille
[url]http://www.essentialespresso.com/Gaggia/achille.cfm?[/url] ([url]http://www.essentialespresso.com/Gaggia/achille.cfm?[/url])
There 20% off Gaggia code is GASAVE20
Another Gaggia
[url]http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0001KOA6E/ref=asc_df_B0001KOA6E1140922?tag=the004-20&creative=380333&creativeASIN=B0001KOA6E&linkCode=asn[/url] ([url]http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0001KOA6E/ref=asc_df_B0001KOA6E1140922?tag=the004-20&creative=380333&creativeASIN=B0001KOA6E&linkCode=asn[/url])
another Astoria
[url]http://store.baristatools.com/asdialmaleop2.html[/url] ([url]http://store.baristatools.com/asdialmaleop2.html[/url])
Scratch the Gaggia Achille - unsolvable problems. Good idea until marketing took charge of the project!
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I think this one has great "wife please' factor!
([url]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o275/albulba/Rapollo-4.jpg[/url])
Yeah ... saw that ... just don't let her see the hole in your wallet after its home.
;D
If you look at the list I posted, THIS is a steal!
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I think this one has great "wife please' factor!
([url]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o275/albulba/Rapollo-4.jpg[/url])
Yeah ... saw that ... just don't let her see the hole in your wallet after its home.
;D
If you look at the list I posted, THIS is a steal!
At $3900?
???
-
New Astoria Rapallo without the bling.
[url]http://www.espressoparts.com/ASTORIA_RAPALLO_AL2[/url] ([url]http://www.espressoparts.com/ASTORIA_RAPALLO_AL2[/url])
Victoria Arduino Athena 2 group.
[url]http://www.espressoparts.com/NS_ATHENA_2LEVA_CO[/url] ([url]http://www.espressoparts.com/NS_ATHENA_2LEVA_CO[/url])
Like the copper, it comes in chrome if that is your preference.
Rancilio's lever:
[url]http://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/Rancilio-Classe-6-LE-Lever-Control-Commercial-Espr-p/scg14030-16.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/Rancilio-Classe-6-LE-Lever-Control-Commercial-Espr-p/scg14030-16.htm[/url])
Seattle has a 5% off code now.
Gaggia's Achille
[url]http://www.essentialespresso.com/Gaggia/achille.cfm?[/url] ([url]http://www.essentialespresso.com/Gaggia/achille.cfm?[/url])
There 20% off Gaggia code is GASAVE20
Another Gaggia
[url]http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0001KOA6E/ref=asc_df_B0001KOA6E1140922?tag=the004-20&creative=380333&creativeASIN=B0001KOA6E&linkCode=asn[/url] ([url]http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0001KOA6E/ref=asc_df_B0001KOA6E1140922?tag=the004-20&creative=380333&creativeASIN=B0001KOA6E&linkCode=asn[/url])
another Astoria
[url]http://store.baristatools.com/asdialmaleop2.html[/url] ([url]http://store.baristatools.com/asdialmaleop2.html[/url])
Scratch the Gaggia Achille - unsolvable problems. Good idea until marketing took charge of the project!
Marketing department screwed up?
???
-
New Astoria Rapallo without the bling.
[url]http://www.espressoparts.com/ASTORIA_RAPALLO_AL2[/url] ([url]http://www.espressoparts.com/ASTORIA_RAPALLO_AL2[/url])
Victoria Arduino Athena 2 group.
[url]http://www.espressoparts.com/NS_ATHENA_2LEVA_CO[/url] ([url]http://www.espressoparts.com/NS_ATHENA_2LEVA_CO[/url])
Like the copper, it comes in chrome if that is your preference.
Rancilio's lever:
[url]http://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/Rancilio-Classe-6-LE-Lever-Control-Commercial-Espr-p/scg14030-16.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/Rancilio-Classe-6-LE-Lever-Control-Commercial-Espr-p/scg14030-16.htm[/url])
Seattle has a 5% off code now.
Gaggia's Achille
[url]http://www.essentialespresso.com/Gaggia/achille.cfm?[/url] ([url]http://www.essentialespresso.com/Gaggia/achille.cfm?[/url])
There 20% off Gaggia code is GASAVE20
Another Gaggia
[url]http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0001KOA6E/ref=asc_df_B0001KOA6E1140922?tag=the004-20&creative=380333&creativeASIN=B0001KOA6E&linkCode=asn[/url] ([url]http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0001KOA6E/ref=asc_df_B0001KOA6E1140922?tag=the004-20&creative=380333&creativeASIN=B0001KOA6E&linkCode=asn[/url])
another Astoria
[url]http://store.baristatools.com/asdialmaleop2.html[/url] ([url]http://store.baristatools.com/asdialmaleop2.html[/url])
Scratch the Gaggia Achille - unsolvable problems. Good idea until marketing took charge of the project!
Marketing department screwed up?
???
The way I heard it, to get it down to the targeted price the marketing folks overrode the engineers. Result: Leaks everywhere and parts longevity issues. This would've been a killer machine; pretty, in a retro way, to look at, good temp control, and a real 58mm portafilter - plus the Gaggia name!
-
New Astoria Rapallo without the bling.
[url]http://www.espressoparts.com/ASTORIA_RAPALLO_AL2[/url] ([url]http://www.espressoparts.com/ASTORIA_RAPALLO_AL2[/url])
Victoria Arduino Athena 2 group.
[url]http://www.espressoparts.com/NS_ATHENA_2LEVA_CO[/url] ([url]http://www.espressoparts.com/NS_ATHENA_2LEVA_CO[/url])
Like the copper, it comes in chrome if that is your preference.
Rancilio's lever:
[url]http://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/Rancilio-Classe-6-LE-Lever-Control-Commercial-Espr-p/scg14030-16.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/Rancilio-Classe-6-LE-Lever-Control-Commercial-Espr-p/scg14030-16.htm[/url])
Seattle has a 5% off code now.
Gaggia's Achille
[url]http://www.essentialespresso.com/Gaggia/achille.cfm?[/url] ([url]http://www.essentialespresso.com/Gaggia/achille.cfm?[/url])
There 20% off Gaggia code is GASAVE20
Another Gaggia
[url]http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0001KOA6E/ref=asc_df_B0001KOA6E1140922?tag=the004-20&creative=380333&creativeASIN=B0001KOA6E&linkCode=asn[/url] ([url]http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0001KOA6E/ref=asc_df_B0001KOA6E1140922?tag=the004-20&creative=380333&creativeASIN=B0001KOA6E&linkCode=asn[/url])
another Astoria
[url]http://store.baristatools.com/asdialmaleop2.html[/url] ([url]http://store.baristatools.com/asdialmaleop2.html[/url])
Scratch the Gaggia Achille - unsolvable problems. Good idea until marketing took charge of the project!
Marketing department screwed up?
???
The way I heard it, to get it down to the targeted price the marketing folks overrode the engineers. Result: Leaks everywhere and parts longevity issues. This would've been a killer machine; pretty, in a retro way, to look at, good temp control, and a real 58mm portafilter - plus the Gaggia name!
It has a really good review on HomeBarista.
:)
-
It has a really good review on HomeBarista.
:)
How much did they pay for their test machine? :-X
-
Tex is spot-on on Achille. Ingenious design. Pulls amazing shot BUT by the time one masters it – it gets to the end of its lifespan. It is not hard to take care of leaks, but then plastic cylinder develops cracks and bye-bye Achille. Mine didn’t last a year…
-
It has a really good review on HomeBarista.
:)
How much did they pay for their test machine? :-X
http://www.home-barista.com/gaggia-achille-buyers-guide.html (http://www.home-barista.com/gaggia-achille-buyers-guide.html)
They did an evaluation of it ... my guess ... they had it on loan.
:-X
-
Ok you lever heads ... this should be candy for your eyes:
http://sorrentinacoffee.myshopify.com/collections/rare-vintage-coffee-machines-and-equiptment (http://sorrentinacoffee.myshopify.com/collections/rare-vintage-coffee-machines-and-equiptment)
Enjoy!
:)
-
Tex is spot-on on Achille. Ingenious design. Pulls amazing shot BUT by the time one masters it – it gets to the end of its lifespan. It is not hard to take care of leaks, but then plastic cylinder develops cracks and bye-bye Achille. Mine didn’t last a year…
I was totally pissed when it became obvious they'd cut too many corners in making the Achille. I was SO looking forward to trying one but after I tore it apart and saw what they'd done - >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
-
Tex is spot-on on Achille. Ingenious design. Pulls amazing shot BUT by the time one masters it – it gets to the end of its lifespan. It is not hard to take care of leaks, but then plastic cylinder develops cracks and bye-bye Achille. Mine didn’t last a year…
I was totally pissed when it became obvious they'd cut too many corners in making the Achille. I was SO looking forward to trying one but after I tore it apart and saw what they'd done - >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Whoa ... take it easy there Robert ... have you considered one of these?
http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/ponte_vecchio/ponte_vecchio_lusso_2group.htm (http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/ponte_vecchio/ponte_vecchio_lusso_2group.htm)
???
-
Tex is spot-on on Achille. Ingenious design. Pulls amazing shot BUT by the time one masters it – it gets to the end of its lifespan. It is not hard to take care of leaks, but then plastic cylinder develops cracks and bye-bye Achille. Mine didn’t last a year…
I was totally pissed when it became obvious they'd cut too many corners in making the Achille. I was SO looking forward to trying one but after I tore it apart and saw what they'd done - >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Whoa ... take it easy there Robert ... have you considered one of these?
[url]http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/ponte_vecchio/ponte_vecchio_lusso_2group.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/ponte_vecchio/ponte_vecchio_lusso_2group.htm[/url])
???
I rebuilt a Gensaco Lux 1-group a few years ago, and didn't think much of the build quality. Maybe with a Ponte Vecchio label they've improved their workmanship?
edited: IIRC, they have small portafilters and the group temp management was as bad as a La Pavoni - totally hit or miss.
-
Ponte Vecchio was formally SAMA not Gensaco. I believe Gensaco and Riviera have had ties though.
-
I think this one has great "wife please' factor!
([url]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o275/albulba/Rapollo-4.jpg[/url])
Yeah ... saw that ... just don't let her see the hole in your wallet after its home.
;D
If you look at the list I posted, THIS is a steal!
At $3900?
???
Ok, well maybe not a bargain, but still a mighty nice piece of equipment.
-
Ponte Vecchio was formally SAMA not Gensaco. I believe Gensaco and Riviera have had ties though.
Gensaco sells machines made by Ponte Vecchio or vice versa, but I do know the Gensaco Lusso is identical to the Ponte Vecchio Lusso. It's been awhile but my notes indicate the Lusso has very severe group temp problems - reminded me of the La Pavoni; I had to use wet tea towels after three pulls to get the temp down into the working range.
-
but I do know the Gensaco Lusso is identical to the Ponte Vecchio Lusso. It's been awhile but my notes indicate the Lusso has very severe group temp problems - reminded me of the La Pavoni; I had to use wet tea towels after three pulls to get the temp down into the working range.
I think maybe your notes are off.
"..the Olympia Cremina, La Pavoni Europiccola and Elektra Microcasa a Leva have the grouphead bolted to the boiler. In contrast, the Ponte Vecchio Lusso's grouphead is detached from the boiler and warmed by two thermosyphon tubes going to/from the boiler (photo right). The result is a temperature-stable lever espresso machine, espresso after espresso.
The Lusso idles cold; if you haven't used it in 10+ minutes, flush for a brief 2 seconds and then allow the group another minute to stabilize before starting the extraction."
http://www.home-barista.com/ponte-vecchio-lusso-review.html (http://www.home-barista.com/ponte-vecchio-lusso-review.html)
-
but I do know the Gensaco Lusso is identical to the Ponte Vecchio Lusso. It's been awhile but my notes indicate the Lusso has very severe group temp problems - reminded me of the La Pavoni; I had to use wet tea towels after three pulls to get the temp down into the working range.
I think maybe your notes are off.
"..the Olympia Cremina, La Pavoni Europiccola and Elektra Microcasa a Leva have the grouphead bolted to the boiler. In contrast, the Ponte Vecchio Lusso's grouphead is detached from the boiler and warmed by two thermosyphon tubes going to/from the boiler (photo right). The result is a temperature-stable lever espresso machine, espresso after espresso.
The Lusso idles cold; if you haven't used it in 10+ minutes, flush for a brief 2 seconds and then allow the group another minute to stabilize before starting the extraction."
[url]http://www.home-barista.com/ponte-vecchio-lusso-review.html[/url] ([url]http://www.home-barista.com/ponte-vecchio-lusso-review.html[/url])
My notes don't indicate any idling temp problems, so the thermo-siphon probably did its job OK. When I note something like a particular temp problem when pulling multiple consecutive shots, I'll stand behind what I wrote. But that was strictly from my notes; I remember very little about the machine.
edited: The biggest problem I had in the rebuild was finding a cheap/readily available source for parts. That's the biggest real problem with owning an off-brand - parts availability!
-
I've never seen the machine (yet) but it looks like the group cools and it's the shot that warms to temp.
So if you pull back to back you would overheat at some point but they say after ~3 min you stabilize and after 10 min you might want to do a warming flush. So unless you have preloaded baskets on a one group it might be pretty stable.
But I think Mr. Roboto has talked me into the 2 group and then the ability to go group to group (and back again) looks on paper like you could pull back to back shots until you run out of water. 8)
-
I can't keep up. Link to the levered machine you are considering.
T'anks,
Swifty
-
Then its settled. Staylor gets the Athena 2-group.
-
I can't keep up. Link to the levered machine you are considering.
I think there are several lookers and machines going in this thread...
I was thinking of getting this one:
http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/ponte_vecchio/ponte_vecchio_export.htm (http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/ponte_vecchio/ponte_vecchio_export.htm)
But Staylor is probably talking me into this one:
http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/ponte_vecchio/ponte_vecchio_lusso_2group.htm (http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/ponte_vecchio/ponte_vecchio_lusso_2group.htm)
It will take me a few months but I'm pretty well set on one of these after doing a good bit of research I'm convinced this is the next port of call.
-
Just to throw another option ... check this out:
http://www.gensaco.com/esprequip_comp.html (http://www.gensaco.com/esprequip_comp.html)
The Export that you were looking at in red and chrome is going for $500.00.
:-X
-
The Export that you were looking at in red and chrome is going for $500.00.
That is cheap, and I like the red.
It looks the same but Warrior says it's different..... :icon_scratch:
-
The Export that you were looking at in red and chrome is going for $500.00.
That is cheap, and I like the red.
It looks the same but Warrior says it's different..... :icon_scratch:
How so?
???
-
According to Orphanespresso the machine has gone by Sama, Dampa and now Ponte Vecchio with the only difference the older ones had the the ceme pstat and the newer ones have the mater pstat.
http://www.orphanespresso.com/SAMA-Export-Espresso-Machine_c_203.html (http://www.orphanespresso.com/SAMA-Export-Espresso-Machine_c_203.html)
:icon_scratch:
-
According to Orphanespresso the machine has gone by Sama, Dampa and now Ponte Vecchio with the only difference the older ones had the older ones had the ceme pstat and the newer ones have the mater pstat.
Ok but... Ponte Vecchio was formally SAMA not Gensaco.
You are showing Gensaco right?
-
Then its settled. Staylor gets the Athena 2-group.
You're not letting that bargain go ... are you?
???
-
According to Orphanespresso the machine has gone by Sama, Dampa and now Ponte Vecchio with the only difference the older ones had the older ones had the ceme pstat and the newer ones have the mater pstat.
Ok but... Ponte Vecchio was formally SAMA not Gensaco.
You are showing Gensaco right?
Yes ... I was showing Gensaco ... you have to understand that Gensaco does not manufacture anything ... they just re-badge machines. As far as I can tell you are getting the Ponte Vecchio but the name on it is Gensaco.
http://www.home-barista.com/levers/another-ponte-vecchio-export-applies-to-lmwdp-t3519.html (http://www.home-barista.com/levers/another-ponte-vecchio-export-applies-to-lmwdp-t3519.html)
:-\
-
[url]http://www.home-barista.com/levers/another-ponte-vecchio-export-applies-to-lmwdp-t3519.html[/url] ([url]http://www.home-barista.com/levers/another-ponte-vecchio-export-applies-to-lmwdp-t3519.html[/url])
:-\
Wow, that could be Staylors kit in a few weeks. 8)
-
Ponte Vecchio was formally SAMA not Gensaco. I believe Gensaco and Riviera have had ties though.
Gensaco sells machines made by Ponte Vecchio or vice versa, but I do know the Gensaco Lusso is identical to the Ponte Vecchio Lusso. It's been awhile but my notes indicate the Lusso has very severe group temp problems - reminded me of the La Pavoni; I had to use wet tea towels after three pulls to get the temp down into the working range.
Yes, that is very consistent among any home lever with such a small grouphead. Ponte Vecchios, Elektra MCaL, La Peppina, Arrarex, Olympia, La Pavoni, etc. they will all have this problem. That is one of the reasons I recommended the two group head version versus the one to Staylor. Having two groupheads will allow him to alternate and get more shots out of the machine if he has company over.
You hit the nail on the head with your approach to remedying the situation. There are really only 2 ways to cool the groupheads down between shots. The wet rag on the group is one, and turning the machine off between shots is another.
Also, I stand corrected. Ponte Vecchio does make both the 'Export' and the 'Lusso' for Gensaco. The 'Export' is called the CAPUCIO and the 'Lusso' the LUX. Riviera does also make a machine for Gensaco, which is called the 'Capucio' with small letters :) . It appears that several of Gensaco's other machines are manufactured by Bezzera.
Anyway, MP is right. . . the CAPUCIO is cheaper than the Export.
-
Ooops!
The post I'm quoting is gone. :-X
I'll rephrase to say I REALLY like the look of the export better than the two group.
The only reason I'll pick the two group is what Warrior just said about pulling multiple shots.
If I learn that it's not a problem to pull 2 shots back to back I would probably go back to choosing the Export over the two group.
What do you think Warrior, 2 back to back shots on the Export using 2 preloaded baskets.....doable without overheating?
-
John,
Prior to moving into the world of commercial lever machines I was really close to pulling the trigger on that 2-group Ponte Vecchio Lusso. At the time, OrphanEspresso was selling slightly modified Lussos, so I had the chance to speak with Doug and Barb about them. They said that one of the reasons Ponte Vecchio went that route was to allow the user to pull more shots without overheating, plus it just looks cool! Now, I never got to experience that, as I never bought one, but that same thought was the main reason I was looking at the 2 group and not the one group. The reason I started looking at new machines was that the MCaL would overheat after 3 shots, which was really inconvenient when company was over. With that said, understand that home lever machines are not meant to be left on all day. If you leave those machines on long enough, regardless of how many groups the machine has, the entire machine will heat up to an incredibly hot temp. So, just realize you turn them on when you want shots and turn them off when you do not. They do heat up relatively fast, so it is not really an inconvenience.
The other plus to a Lusso versus an Export is the water capacity, 3L to 1L. Regardless of how many shots I could pull on the MCaL, utilizing tricks to cool it or not, the machines water capacity, 1L, really only lent itself to about 5-6 doubles with flushing in between shots. There may have been more water in the boiler, but with Elektras they recommend you always keep the boiler right around half. This ensures you are not exposing the top of the heating element.
As far as two back to back shots on the Export, I will say not immediately back to back anyway. Lever espresso machines do not have a group pressure release, so the user has to wait for the pressure to dissipate. Otherwise they get the feared / messy portafilter sneeze. Even if you cheat and wiggle the portafilter to help it along with it's pressure release you should still wait 25-30 seconds to let some of the pressure subside. After which you could wiggle the PF to remove the rest, then flush the group to remove the mess you made on the group screen due to your lack of patience, dry the screen off with a towel and then you could reload for another shot.
-
Ponte Vecchio was formally SAMA not Gensaco. I believe Gensaco and Riviera have had ties though.
Gensaco sells machines made by Ponte Vecchio or vice versa, but I do know the Gensaco Lusso is identical to the Ponte Vecchio Lusso. It's been awhile but my notes indicate the Lusso has very severe group temp problems - reminded me of the La Pavoni; I had to use wet tea towels after three pulls to get the temp down into the working range.
Yes, that is very consistent among any home lever with such a small grouphead. Ponte Vecchios, Elektra MCaL, La Peppina, Arrarex, Olympia, La Pavoni, etc. they will all have this problem. That is one of the reasons I recommended the two group head version versus the one to Staylor. Having two groupheads will allow him to alternate and get more shots out of the machine if he has company over.
You hit the nail on the head with your approach to remedying the situation. There are really only 2 ways to cool the groupheads down between shots. The wet rag on the group is one, and turning the machine off between shots is another.
Also, I stand corrected. Ponte Vecchio does make both the 'Export' and the 'Lusso' for Gensaco. The 'Export' is called the CAPUCIO and the 'Lusso' the LUX. Riviera does also make a machine for Gensaco, which is called the 'Capucio' with small letters :) . It appears that several of Gensaco's other machines are manufactured by Bezzera.
Anyway, MP is right. . . the CAPUCIO is cheaper than the Export.
I ran into a few posts from people looking at Gensaco wanting to buy the Capucio ... although it is listed at $499 they were told that they did not have any and were pointed to the larger lever machine at $1300. It may be an old link. I never did try to get hold of them to verify it one way or another. If they do have them $499 is much better than $699 for them.
:D
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I haven't see the Bezzera mentioned.
It looks pretty worthy.
http://www.1st-line.net/cgi-bin/category.cgi?item=B2006AL&type=store (http://www.1st-line.net/cgi-bin/category.cgi?item=B2006AL&type=store)
(http://www.1st-line.net/mas_assets/full/B2006AL.jpg)
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I know two people who swear by their Gaggia Mini espresso machine. Open boiler (great plus feature!!), and spring powered lever, make this not-too-difficult-to-find and still reasonably priced machine a great choice. Only drawback - no steam capability. You'd have to decide if frou-frou is really important or not?
(http://www.orphanespresso.com/assets/images/categories/Mini%20Gaggia%20Espresso%20Machine.jpg)
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There is a Zerowatt CA310 lever on craigslist right now. They are very similar to the MiniGaggias. I do not know much about them, only that they are quite rare.
Oops I meant Ebay, not CL!
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Only drawback - no steam capability.
Not a deal killer for me at all if I found one for a steal...
My thing on this machine is that I don't have any desire for it to be a project machine. That is a pretty old design I'm guessing and might be a pain to source an o ring, seal, or something. The only way I'm getting something like that is if it's a screaming deal I can't pass up, otherwise I'll probably be looking at new for this purchase.
I am only interested in learning about lever shots not any machine rebuilding, modding, or any of that stuff. I've already got one of those. ;)
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There is a Zerowatt CA310 lever on craigslist right now.
How do you guys perform these searches?
I've tried a ton of searches in my area for things like "lever espresso machine" to no success whatsoever.....ever. Is there some way to search all craigslist(s) ?
-
Try this John:
"lever espresso machine site:craigslist.org"
I cannot find the one that Warrior mentioned however.
:(
-
Try this John:
"lever espresso machine site:craigslist.org"
I cannot find the one that Warrior mentioned however.
:(
Could also try craiglook.com .. it's what all the kool kids are using.
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Did someone want a Zerowatt?
http://cgi.ebay.com/Zerowatt-CA310-vintage-lever-espresso-machine-anni80-/320543979433?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Coffee_Machines_Makers&hash=item4aa1e8f7a9 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Zerowatt-CA310-vintage-lever-espresso-machine-anni80-/320543979433?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Coffee_Machines_Makers&hash=item4aa1e8f7a9)
Roughly $300 delivered from Italy. The only thing is I'm not sure if its cord will work on our outlets.
:-\
-
Could also try craiglook.com .. it's what all the kool kids are using.
I want to be cool too...... 8)
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Could also try craiglook.com .. it's what all the kool kids are using.
I want to be cool too...... 8)
The cool kids don't do frou-frou; very uncool! 8)
-
The cool kids don't do frou-frou; very uncool! 8)
I wanna be a rebel.
-
Only drawback - no steam capability.
Not a deal killer for me at all if I found one for a steal...
My thing on this machine is that I don't have any desire for it to be a project machine. That is a pretty old design I'm guessing and might be a pain to source an o ring, seal, or something. The only way I'm getting something like that is if it's a screaming deal I can't pass up, otherwise I'll probably be looking at new for this purchase.
I am only interested in learning about lever shots not any machine rebuilding, modding, or any of that stuff. I've already got one of those. ;)
BTW: How's the Carezza coming along?
-
The cool kids don't do frou-frou; very uncool! 8)
I wanna be a rebel.
Pee-Wee the loner rebel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKLizztikRk#ws)
-
The cool kids don't do frou-frou; very uncool! 8)
I wanna be a rebel.
Pee-Wee the loner rebel ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKLizztikRk#ws[/url])
Oh, oh; I just found my opponent for my first match in the octagon. I can take him coach, put me in! :o :o
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John,
I like to search more regionally for these type of things and this is helpful:
http://www.searchtempest.com/ (http://www.searchtempest.com/)
Question on double boiler systems. I am unconvinced that a PID is needed on the steam boiler. I have also read comments by Jim at 1st Line where he seems to be saying that PID's aren't all that needed for the brew boiler. They get limed up and become more inaccurate as time goes on.
It sure would make it easier if I was just looking for a DB and no PID. Geeks are probabl dumping thos by the tone to get the new DB-PID units.
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A PID-controlled unit will not have a quick enough response to have significant effects in a system with a large enough heat sink and boiler. For something like a Gaggia it is absolutely indispensible, but for a larger double-boiler unit with a huge brass grouphead it becomes just another link to break. If you have a huge, intermittent, throughput it might be useful, but I'd wager that even then we'd see far more variability introduced by minor loading and tamping inconsistencies than by the small heat perturbations seen with a robust semi-commercial double boiler unit.
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A PID-controlled unit will not have a quick enough response to have significant effects in a system with a large enough heat sink and boiler. For something like a Gaggia it is absolutely indispensible, but for a larger double-boiler unit with a huge brass grouphead it becomes just another link to break. If you have a huge, intermittent, throughput it might be useful, but I'd wager that even then we'd see far more variability introduced by minor loading and tamping inconsistencies than by the small heat perturbations seen with a robust semi-commercial double boiler unit.
A PID will not force a faster stabilizing of temps in a large commercial machine sized boiler; BW is 100% correct in that. But a PID should last a lot longer than a pstat or tstat, and the pstat's constant click clack is enough reason in itself to use a silent PID to control a boiler's temp.
The biggest problem I have with pstats is that when they fail it's a slow and at first an unnoticed failure. The temps start creeping up as the diaphragm leaks, and as a result the coffee starts getting bitter. A barista thinks his/her technique is at fault and starts tweaking their procedures and customers just think the coffee is crap and take their business elsewhere. So save your business, switch to PIDs. ;)
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John,
I like to search more regionally for these type of things and this is helpful:
[url]http://www.searchtempest.com/[/url] ([url]http://www.searchtempest.com/[/url])
Question on double boiler systems. I am unconvinced that a PID is needed on the steam boiler. I have also read comments by Jim at 1st Line where he seems to be saying that PID's aren't all that needed for the brew boiler. They get limed up and become more inaccurate as time goes on.
It sure would make it easier if I was just looking for a DB and no PID. Geeks are probabl dumping thos by the tone to get the new DB-PID units.
Truism for SB/DU and double boiler machines: The larger the brew boiler the more stable the brew temps. A PID is necessary for small boiler machines to ensure that the inter-shot temp (beginning temp or recovery temp after pulling a previous shot) is where you want it. The PID has little or no effect on intra-shot temps (temp change as the shot is being pulled). That's where the larger boiler is invaluable - the larger the boiler the more constant the brew temp will be for a 2 oz pull.
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would that be true with the Vibiemme Domobar Junior 2B? It has a 600ml boiler "controlled by bulb thermostat adjustable with 2 degree C increments"
http://www.1st-line.com/machines/comm_mod/esprmach/vibiemme/juniordb.html (http://www.1st-line.com/machines/comm_mod/esprmach/vibiemme/juniordb.html)
The Double Domobar has a 1.4 liter boiler and uses a PID for the coffee boiler.
http://www.1st-line.com/machines/comm_mod/esprmach/vibiemme/vibiemme-manual-stainless-double-boiler-directconnect.htm (http://www.1st-line.com/machines/comm_mod/esprmach/vibiemme/vibiemme-manual-stainless-double-boiler-directconnect.htm)
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would that be true with the Vibiemme Domobar Junior 2B? It has a 600ml boiler "controlled by bulb thermostat adjustable with 2 degree C increments"
[url]http://www.1st-line.com/machines/comm_mod/esprmach/vibiemme/juniordb.html[/url] ([url]http://www.1st-line.com/machines/comm_mod/esprmach/vibiemme/juniordb.html[/url])
The Double Domobar has a 1.4 liter boiler and uses a PID for the coffee boiler.
[url]http://www.1st-line.com/machines/comm_mod/esprmach/vibiemme/vibiemme-manual-stainless-double-boiler-directconnect.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.1st-line.com/machines/comm_mod/esprmach/vibiemme/vibiemme-manual-stainless-double-boiler-directconnect.htm[/url])
I'm not sure where the line is drawn as far as boiler sizes goes: I just figure bigger is better!
I wonder what the dead band is for the bulb tstat used in the VD Jr? That's the key to temp control; bimetallic tstats have huge (~30°F either way!) dead bands, which is why it's so difficult to manage temps. Pstats are better; IIRC the Siria is set to 3°F and a PID has no dead band to speak of.
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I would never buy a double boiler espresso machine for home use that was not PID controlled.
The DD brew boiler of 1.4 liters is large for home use (the Gaggia for comparison is I believe 3 1/2 oz. (~0.1 liter) >:D and the La Spaz is 0.45 liter ) but still would benefit IMO from a PID. Their main purpose aside from being more reliable/durable then a thermostat/pressurestat is the ability to tune the deadband temperature range to plus/minus about 1 degree (the wadlows I use in my lab are good to about 0.1 degree). A thermostat will range significantly higher and lower then your desired brew temperature so you will not know the actual brewing temperature rather a (larger then PID controlled) range around your desired temperature from shot to shot. With th money already being invested in a good machine why not make it both more reliable and accurate in temperture management?
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Here's something Jim Gallt did; comparing the temp stability of a Rancilio Silvia with an OEM bimetalic tstat and a PID. Notice the swings above and below the target temp - that's what's known as dead-band, the swings in temp as the tstat opens & closes at its preset temp.
(http://pidkits.com/images/temperature-plot.jpg)
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If that red band was a neon green, it would look just like your avatar.
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If that red band was a neon green, it would look just like your avatar.
Blahahahaha!
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I really am finding the Vibiemme Domobar Junior hard to resist.
There isn't an indication of how large the dead band is on the bulb thermostat.
I suppose an inquiry to 1st line is in order.
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I really am finding the Vibiemme Domobar Junior hard to resist.
Dave, toss in a MACAP 4 (stepless) at $429 and you have a set-up that will hold you until Social Security should kick in. Peddle the Rocky. Peter and I both run the Macap should you wish to see/hear it in action (stepped though) http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/macap/M4.htm (http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/macap/M4.htm)
B|Java
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Better grind then the MACAP (as recommended and stated by Chris Coffee - not me) AND CHEAPER from 1st line.
http://www.home-barista.com/marketplace/pre-summer-blow-out-sale-compak-grinders-t14316.html (http://www.home-barista.com/marketplace/pre-summer-blow-out-sale-compak-grinders-t14316.html)
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I haven't seen that the stepless is that big a deal. For the ideal world it would be, but not for my world.
Pyment, if you can spring for the Vibiemme Jr., you may as well just go all the way to the Izzo Alex Duetto II. Just sayin'...
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I really am finding the Vibiemme Domobar Junior hard to resist.
There isn't an indication of how large the dead band is on the bulb thermostat.
I suppose an inquiry to 1st line is in order.
While I've never used, or even seen, that machine, based on the specs, there are a couple of issues.
1) I'm having a hard time with the brew bulb thermostat's 2°C adjustment increments. I don't feel like converting that right now, but with my PID I'm making adjustments of 1°F, giving me much tighter control of brew temps. Some folks claim they can taste a difference in taste of just a 1°F change.
2) The 600 watt heating element means you're going to have a long wait between shots for the brew temp to stabilize.
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I really am finding the Vibiemme Domobar Junior hard to resist.
Dave, toss in a MACAP 4 (stepless) at $429 and you have a set-up that will hold you until Social Security should kick in. Peddle the Rocky. Peter and I both run the Macap should you wish to see/hear it in action (stepped though) [url]http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/macap/M4.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/macap/M4.htm[/url])
B|Java
Great grinder - and stepless is critical to fine espresso. The difference between a good & great shot might only be the tiniest of changes in the separation of the burrs. Stepped adjustment means having to settle on grinder changes of a fixed distance - bad!
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I really am finding the Vibiemme Domobar Junior hard to resist.
Dave, toss in a MACAP 4 (stepless) at $429 and you have a set-up that will hold you until Social Security should kick in. Peddle the Rocky. Peter and I both run the Macap should you wish to see/hear it in action (stepped though) [url]http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/macap/M4.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/macap/M4.htm[/url])
B|Java
Great grinder - and stepless is critical to fine espresso. The difference between a good & great shot might only be the tiniest of changes in the separation of the burrs. Stepped adjustment means having to settle on grinder changes of a fixed distance - bad!
In theory, I'd agree.
How often do you adjust your grinder Tex, in the course of a given morning? Do you start with a shot, and then say, "This needs to go finer," adjust, pull, evaluate, readjust? If so, do you throw out each of those shots until you get it right?
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I haven't seen that the stepless is that big a deal. For the ideal world it would be, but not for my world.
Pyment, if you can spring for the Vibiemme Jr., you may as well just go all the way to the Izzo Alex Duetto II. Just sayin'...
I like the specs on the Duetto better, but for $800 more it's not that big an upgrade.
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I really am finding the Vibiemme Domobar Junior hard to resist.
Dave, toss in a MACAP 4 (stepless) at $429 and you have a set-up that will hold you until Social Security should kick in. Peddle the Rocky. Peter and I both run the Macap should you wish to see/hear it in action (stepped though) [url]http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/macap/M4.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/macap/M4.htm[/url])
B|Java
Great grinder - and stepless is critical to fine espresso. The difference between a good & great shot might only be the tiniest of changes in the separation of the burrs. Stepped adjustment means having to settle on grinder changes of a fixed distance - bad!
Stepless is a good idea but not 'critical' to espresso. The difference between a good and great shot might be the tiniest of changes but the stepped change usually manages it just fine, if it requires precision work that the stepped can't manage then it becomes the small tweak at dosing.
The upside to stepped is it's easier to go back to a known constant, particularly if you switch back and forth between espresso, pourover, chemex, etc. You will find certain 'sweet spots' on the steeped grinder adjustment ring for each brew method that you can go back to with ease.
I like to think my espresso is pretty good, I used a stepped Macap.
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I really am finding the Vibiemme Domobar Junior hard to resist.
Dave, toss in a MACAP 4 (stepless) at $429 and you have a set-up that will hold you until Social Security should kick in. Peddle the Rocky. Peter and I both run the Macap should you wish to see/hear it in action (stepped though) [url]http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/macap/M4.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/macap/M4.htm[/url])
B|Java
Great grinder - and stepless is critical to fine espresso. The difference between a good & great shot might only be the tiniest of changes in the separation of the burrs. Stepped adjustment means having to settle on grinder changes of a fixed distance - bad!
In theory, I'd agree.
How often do you adjust your grinder Tex, in the course of a given morning? Do you start with a shot, and then say, "This needs to go finer," adjust, pull, evaluate, readjust? If so, do you throw out each of those shots until you get it right?
I make adjustments from shot to shot, all the time - don't you? The differences are minor; maybe a 24 second pull instead of 25, but I'll adjust the grinder so the next shot will be better. Throw out a perfectly acceptable shot? You silly boy, why would you even ask that question? ;D
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I really am finding the Vibiemme Domobar Junior hard to resist.
Dave, toss in a MACAP 4 (stepless) at $429 and you have a set-up that will hold you until Social Security should kick in. Peddle the Rocky. Peter and I both run the Macap should you wish to see/hear it in action (stepped though) [url]http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/macap/M4.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/macap/M4.htm[/url])
B|Java
Great grinder - and stepless is critical to fine espresso. The difference between a good & great shot might only be the tiniest of changes in the separation of the burrs. Stepped adjustment means having to settle on grinder changes of a fixed distance - bad!
Stepless is a good idea but not 'critical' to espresso. The difference between a good and great shot might be the tiniest of changes but the stepped change usually manages it just fine, if it requires precision work that the stepped can't manage then it becomes the small tweak at dosing.
The upside to stepped is it's easier to go back to a known constant, particularly if you switch back and forth between espresso, pourover, chemex, etc. You will find certain 'sweet spots' on the steeped grinder adjustment ring for each brew method that you can go back to with ease.
I like to think my espresso is pretty good, I used a stepped Macap.
I prefer to use a separate grinder for my non-espresso coffee making. Going back and forth is one way to do it, but not for me; once I find the sweet spot I don't want anything throwing it off. One thing to consider, there is a bit of play in the threads that is dependent on which way you move the burr carrier. If you move the burr carrier up to grind for press pot say, turn the burr carrier back down past the espresso setting then turn it back.
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I make adjustments from shot to shot, all the time - don't you? The differences are minor; maybe a 24 second pull instead of 25, but I'll adjust the grinder so the next shot will be better. Throw out a perfectly acceptable shot? You silly boy, why would you even ask that question? ;D
Maybe I need to start pulling singles. I'll have two doubles, and then my buzz is sufficient. That would mean one adjustment, and that might not be where the next shot later in the day needs to be. So no, I don't adjust my grinder much.
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If so, do you throw out each of those shots until you get it right?
Bingo!
I remember watching a vid of Gwilym Davies pull shots and I noticed he was purging the grinder with ~3-5g of coffee between shots.
I thought to myself how much sense it made, how great of a practice it was, why it's so very much an "espresso" thing to do and that I'll probably never do it in day to day practice. :-\
So it is with stepless.... it's a fantastic idea but is anybody sinking shots until they dial in the perfect stepless grind? Even if you did it on Monday at 9am are you going to auto-sink your first shot later that evening or the next day? Because we don't have laser targeted "locked and loaded" grinding and things are always on the move.
Better is better but the idea of falling between the steps and not being able to compensate by grind/dose doesn't really sound like the type of measure anybody who cares would fail on more than a few times a year. At least not to a degree that matters in the grand sense. And I don't want to sound like I'm advocating sloppy practice or anything but maybe it's like a dog whistle. At some point the measures are small enough that like a dog whistle you really don't hear it anyway....it's still real, you just don't hear it.
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Maybe I need to start pulling singles.
I doubt it.
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Everyone knows I'm a noob, so I can ask any question I want. ;D Isn't the tamp a variable, just as the distribution and dose, just as the grind, just as the... ? Can't the grinder just be close, and then the shot be adjusted by other parameters, say tamp pressure?
I suppose it goes back to 'what's in your cup?' and how does it taste to you/me. Knowing that the shot can always be 'better' should not keep it from being enjoyed.
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I thought Tex didn't even look at flat burred grinders under 60mm.
I was kind of looking at the Cunill. http://sovranastore.com/cunbrasgrin.html (http://sovranastore.com/cunbrasgrin.html)
I had thought about the PID'd Junior from eBay. Wonder if that voids the warranty?
Roast-e has the Domobar Junior for the same price as 1st line but they have a 10% off coupon. So, $1322 for the Junior?
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Everyone knows I'm a noob, so I can ask any question I want. ;D Isn't the tamp a variable, just as the distribution and dose, just as the grind, just as the... ? Can't the grinder just be close, and then the shot be adjusted by other parameters, say tamp pressure?
I suppose it goes back to 'what's in your cup?' and how does it taste to you/me. Knowing that the shot can always be 'better' should not keep it from being enjoyed.
Ideally, the tamp should be consistent from shot to shot, making the grind the only variable.
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I thought Tex didn't even look at flat burred grinders under 60mm.
I had thought about the PID'd Junior from eBay. Wonder if that voids the warranty?
Roast-e has the Domobar Junior for the same price as 1st line but they have a 10% off coupon. So, $1322 for the Junior?
Roast-e is peddling it for : Espresso4Home
Manalapan, NJ
About the vendor:
Espresso4Home markets premium espresso machines and/or espresso coffee grinders manufacturered by Ascaso, Elektra, and Vibiemme. We sell directly only to approved retailers and resellers. We do not sell directly to consumers.
Don't forget, you are buying follow-on service. I have never once seen Espresso4Home mentioned on HB, CG, or here.
B|Java
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I thought Tex didn't even look at flat burred grinders under 60mm.
I was kind of looking at the Cunill. [url]http://sovranastore.com/cunbrasgrin.html[/url] ([url]http://sovranastore.com/cunbrasgrin.html[/url])
I had thought about the PID'd Junior from eBay. Wonder if that voids the warranty?
Roast-e has the Domobar Junior for the same price as 1st line but they have a 10% off coupon. So, $1322 for the Junior?
What Tex recommends varies - I like the Macap. The Cunill Brasil is a Tranquilo in a plastic box. If you can tolerate it's looks, the Tranquilo is the better buy: http://tinyurl.com/rocky-killer. (http://tinyurl.com/rocky-killer.) Either is acceptable as an espresso grinder.
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I've been trying something new learned from a very respected poster on another forum. As the bean ages, updose slightly (~1/2 gram) instead of adjusting the grind. It works for me as well or better than grinding finer.
Anyone here ever tried this?
Dan Brewer
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I thought Tex didn't even look at flat burred grinders under 60mm.
I had thought about the PID'd Junior from eBay. Wonder if that voids the warranty?
Roast-e has the Domobar Junior for the same price as 1st line but they have a 10% off coupon. So, $1322 for the Junior?
Roast-e is peddling it for : Espresso4Home
Manalapan, NJ
About the vendor:
Espresso4Home markets premium espresso machines and/or espresso coffee grinders manufacturered by Ascaso, Elektra, and Vibiemme. We sell directly only to approved retailers and resellers. We do not sell directly to consumers.
Don't forget, you are buying follow-on service. I have never once seen Espresso4Home mentioned on HB, CG, or here.
B|Java
+1
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Brasil is stepless. Is that worth $80?
I don't know if you have seen the redesigned look, but I like it better than the Tranquilo. Astra re-badges both as their grinders.
http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/sovrana_2110_1106235 (http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/sovrana_2110_1106235)
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Brasil is stepless. Is that worth $80?
I don't know if you have seen the redesigned look, but I like it better than the Tranquilo. Astra re-badges both as their grinders.
[url]http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/sovrana_2110_1106235[/url] ([url]http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/sovrana_2110_1106235[/url])
It's not $80 prettier to me. How much COE would that buy?
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Brasil is stepless. Is that worth $80?
I don't know if you have seen the redesigned look, but I like it better than the Tranquilo. Astra re-badges both as their grinders.
[url]http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/sovrana_2110_1106235[/url] ([url]http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/sovrana_2110_1106235[/url])
It's not $80 prettier to me. How much COE would that buy?
Hmm ... that is more of a personal taste issue I would think ... Pyment not only likes functionality but he likes his machines to look good.
;)
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Hmm ... that is more of a personal taste issue I would think ... Pyment not only likes functionality but he likes his machines to look good.
;)
Pyment has a case of 'eye-candyitis' worse than I do.
B|Java
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Hmm ... that is more of a personal taste issue I would think ... Pyment not only likes functionality but he likes his machines to look good.
;)
Pyment has a case of 'eye-candyitis' worse than I do.
B|Java
I can understand that ... I can also understand paying the least amount for a machine that can do the job.
:)
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Hmm ... that is more of a personal taste issue I would think ... Pyment not only likes functionality but he likes his machines to look good.
;)
Pyment has a case of 'eye-candyitis' worse than I do.
B|Java
I was raised by children of the depression, and they'd have skinned me if I told them I wanted something that cost more just because it looked better!
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Hmm ... that is more of a personal taste issue I would think ... Pyment not only likes functionality but he likes his machines to look good.
;)
Pyment has a case of 'eye-candyitis' worse than I do.
B|Java
I was raised by children of the depression, and they'd have skinned me if I told them I wanted something that cost more just because it looked better!
Yeah ... I can understand that ... but I'm sure you've bought some equipment that just plain looked better than its competition.
:)
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Hmm ... that is more of a personal taste issue I would think ... Pyment not only likes functionality but he likes his machines to look good.
;)
Pyment has a case of 'eye-candyitis' worse than I do.
B|Java
I was raised by children of the depression, and they'd have skinned me if I told them I wanted something that cost more just because it looked better!
Yeah ... I can understand that ... but I'm sure you've bought some equipment that just plain looked better than its competition.
:)
Only if it outperforms the competition. I also use that standard when selecting wives. ;D
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Hmm ... that is more of a personal taste issue I would think ... Pyment not only likes functionality but he likes his machines to look good.
;)
Pyment has a case of 'eye-candyitis' worse than I do.
B|Java
I was raised by children of the depression, and they'd have skinned me if I told them I wanted something that cost more just because it looked better!
Yeah ... I can understand that ... but I'm sure you've bought some equipment that just plain looked better than its competition.
:)
Only if it outperforms the competition. I also use that standard when selecting wives. ;D
Hmm ... interesting ... what standard do you use when you peek over the fence?
;D
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Yep, I am all about how the machine looks. ::)
The question is: is the stepless feature worth $80.
There may be some difference in the motor as the Brasil is rated 2 db lower (I know - big deal) and a longer run time.
Looking at the Cunill site, the Tranquillo has a face lift coming.
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Yep, I am all about how the machine looks. ::)
The question is: is the stepless feature worth $80.
There may be some difference in the motor as the Brasil is rated 2 db lower (I know - big deal) and a longer run time.
Looking at the Cunill site, the Tranquillo has a face lift coming.
I like the looks of this (http://cgi.ebay.com/Rancilio-Espresso-Grinder-No-Reserve-/260620585820) a lot better. I'd take it to my table saw and make it look like this, so it'd fit under my cabinets and still holds ~1.5 lbs of beans. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder!
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stepless, too?
Hmmmmm.
BTW, I don't currently position my grinder under a cabinet.
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Wow ... that new Tranquillo does look sexy!
http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/sovrana_2110_8495984 (http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/sovrana_2110_8495984)
:o
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stepless, too?
Hmmmmm.
BTW, I don't currently position my grinder under a cabinet.
I also like the squat bulldog look - it reminds me of Mike's Cimbali Junior (and of Mike too, if the truth be told!).
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Wow ... that new Tranquillo does look sexy!
[url]http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/sovrana_2110_8495984[/url] ([url]http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/sovrana_2110_8495984[/url])
:o
http://www.cunill.com/pdfs/Tranquilo2.pdf (http://www.cunill.com/pdfs/Tranquilo2.pdf)
(http://utalk.att.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/1156iB00EC8E311489E52/image-size/original?v=mpbl-1&px=-1)
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Hmm ... looks like it is much lighter ... 6 kilos? It was 22 pounds.
I wonder if the new sexy look is an attempt to hide the change of steel to plastic?
:-\
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stepless, too?
Hmmmmm.
BTW, I don't currently position my grinder under a cabinet.
I also like the squat bulldog look - it reminds me of Mike's Cimbali Junior (and of Mike too, if the truth be told!).
Hmm ... I remind you of a squatting Bull Dog ... along with my grinder?
???
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I have one, rebranded Astra... it's a decent grinder. Certainly not a commercial grinder, but does the job.
(http://www.greencoffeebuyingclub.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8483.0;attach=6774;image)
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I've been trying something new learned from a very respected poster on another forum. As the bean ages, updose slightly (~1/2 gram) instead of adjusting the grind. It works for me as well or better than grinding finer.
Anyone here ever tried this?
Dan Brewer
I do it all the time.
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Anyone here ever tried this?
Dan Brewer
I do it all the time.
Are we still talking about the squatting bulldog?
Is $125 a good price for a Nuova Simonelli AMF grinder?
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I do it all the time.
Do It All The Time - Ryan's House Stockton CA Oct. 1989 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgXg6pTgSGQ#)
aka kissoff
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Anyone here ever tried this?
Dan Brewer
I do it all the time.
Are we still talking about the squatting bulldog?
No, but you are. ;-)
If small in stature and capable of good grinding is your thing, this will fit under any cabinet. It's how I have my grinder configured (hopper removed), I put in my required dose of beans, put my Reg Barber on top of them (it fits in perfectly) to keep the beans from chipping up too much and turn the grinder on.
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I do it all the time.
Do It All The Time - Ryan's House Stockton CA Oct. 1989 ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgXg6pTgSGQ#[/url])
aka kissoff
Awesome!
I saw the "I do it all the time" quote and thought... yeah Violent Femmes, then right away headed off to find the video. You had apparently beaten me to it.
Here's what I came back with only to find you were waaaaay ahead of me. ;-)
VIOLENT FEMMES-Kiss Off (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gproa6vzgws#)
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Looking at the Cunill site, the rated power of the motors are different for the different models.
Tranqillo = 270 W
Brasil = 275 W
Marfil = 356 W
Uganda = 325W
Movie = 497W
So, I am guessing they each have different motors. Other than the Tranquillo, they are stepless.
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Anyone here ever tried this?
Dan Brewer
I do it all the time.
Are we still talking about the squatting bulldog?
Is $125 a good price for a Nuova Simonelli AMF grinder?
This? http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/home/grinders/nuovamcf (http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/home/grinders/nuovamcf)
No.
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I do it all the time.
Do It All The Time - Ryan's House Stockton CA Oct. 1989 ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgXg6pTgSGQ#[/url])
aka kissoff
Awesome!
I saw the "I do it all the time" quote and thought... yeah Violent Femmes, then right away headed off to find the video. You had apparently beaten me to it.
Here's what I came back with only to find you were waaaaay ahead of me. ;-)
VIOLENT FEMMES-Kiss Off ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gproa6vzgws#[/url])
Sweet!
****I hope you know .... that thissss will go down on your PERMANENT RECORD
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I do it all the time.
Do It All The Time - Ryan's House Stockton CA Oct. 1989 ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgXg6pTgSGQ#[/url])
aka kissoff
Awesome!
I saw the "I do it all the time" quote and thought... yeah Violent Femmes, then right away headed off to find the video. You had apparently beaten me to it.
Here's what I came back with only to find you were waaaaay ahead of me. ;-)
VIOLENT FEMMES-Kiss Off ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gproa6vzgws#[/url])
Sweet!
****I hope you know .... that thissss will go down on your PERMANENT RECORD
Haha, it takes 1, 1, 1...
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Anyone here ever tried this?
Dan Brewer
I do it all the time.
Are we still talking about the squatting bulldog?
Is $125 a good price for a Nuova Simonelli AMF grinder?
This? [url]http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/home/grinders/nuovamcf[/url] ([url]http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/home/grinders/nuovamcf[/url])
No.
Nuova Simonelli's grinders are all made by an Italian company named Eureka. They make some pretty stout grinders! They are like tanks. They actually cost even more when they have the Eureka Brand name on the versus the Nuova name. http://www.eureka.co.it/home.php?id=prodotti (http://www.eureka.co.it/home.php?id=prodotti)
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I think this one would have the coolness factor that Pyment is looking for:
http://www.eureka.co.it/home.php?id=olympus_kr (http://www.eureka.co.it/home.php?id=olympus_kr)
:)
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I think this one would have the coolness factor that Pyment is looking for:
[url]http://www.eureka.co.it/home.php?id=olympus_kr[/url] ([url]http://www.eureka.co.it/home.php?id=olympus_kr[/url])
:)
(http://static.rcgroups.com/forums/attachments/1/6/0/1/3/a2970114-48-drooling-homer-simpson.jpg)
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I think this one would have the coolness factor that Pyment is looking for:
[url]http://www.eureka.co.it/home.php?id=olympus_kr[/url] ([url]http://www.eureka.co.it/home.php?id=olympus_kr[/url])
:)
([url]http://static.rcgroups.com/forums/attachments/1/6/0/1/3/a2970114-48-drooling-homer-simpson.jpg[/url])
Hmm ... I take that as a vote of confidence.
;D
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Have you guys checked potential group buys lately? You might want to check it out :) . It involves this grinder http://www.compakgrinders.com/en/productos/020103.htm (http://www.compakgrinders.com/en/productos/020103.htm) .If you want more details feel free to PM Peter or myself.
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Have you guys checked potential group buys lately? You might want to check it out :) . It involves this grinder [url]http://www.compakgrinders.com/en/productos/020103.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.compakgrinders.com/en/productos/020103.htm[/url]) .If you want more details feel free to PM Peter or myself.
Mmmmmmmm... K-10. Yummy.
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Have you guys checked potential group buys lately? You might want to check it out :) . It involves this grinder [url]http://www.compakgrinders.com/en/productos/020103.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.compakgrinders.com/en/productos/020103.htm[/url]) .If you want more details feel free to PM Peter or myself.
What's the wholesale price on a K-10 or A-8 - $850 or so? I might be interested in a group buy.
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Have you guys checked potential group buys lately? You might want to check it out :) . It involves this grinder [url]http://www.compakgrinders.com/en/productos/020103.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.compakgrinders.com/en/productos/020103.htm[/url]) .If you want more details feel free to PM Peter or myself.
What's the wholesale price on a K-10 or A-8 - $850 or so? I might be interested in a group buy.
I think you would send a PM to peter.
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Have you guys checked potential group buys lately? You might want to check it out :) . It involves this grinder [url]http://www.compakgrinders.com/en/productos/020103.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.compakgrinders.com/en/productos/020103.htm[/url]) .If you want more details feel free to PM Peter or myself.
What's the wholesale price on a K-10 or A-8 - $850 or so? I might be interested in a group buy.
Read this; http://xrl.in/5mza (http://xrl.in/5mza)
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Have you guys checked potential group buys lately? You might want to check it out :) . It involves this grinder [url]http://www.compakgrinders.com/en/productos/020103.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.compakgrinders.com/en/productos/020103.htm[/url]) .If you want more details feel free to PM Peter or myself.
What's the wholesale price on a K-10 or A-8 - $850 or so? I might be interested in a group buy.
Read this; [url]http://xrl.in/5mza[/url] ([url]http://xrl.in/5mza[/url])
We'll cut you in on the deal if you promise to change the avatar. >:(
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Have you guys checked potential group buys lately? You might want to check it out :) . It involves this grinder [url]http://www.compakgrinders.com/en/productos/020103.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.compakgrinders.com/en/productos/020103.htm[/url]) .If you want more details feel free to PM Peter or myself.
What's the wholesale price on a K-10 or A-8 - $850 or so? I might be interested in a group buy.
Read this; [url]http://xrl.in/5mza[/url] ([url]http://xrl.in/5mza[/url])
We'll cut you in on the deal if you promise to change the avatar. >:(
How much are you willing to pay me to change it? This is 'merica, where everything's negotiable!
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How about a open box, commercial 1 group machine with these stats:
5.8 liter boiler
2100W heating element
220v
rotary pump
Automatic boiler filling
Double gauge (Boiler and pump pressure)
Heating control by pressure switch
Manual steam tap
Manual hot water tap
Dimensions (W X D X H) mm 430 x 510 x 510
Net weight 42kg
for about $500 shipped?
Maybe that's too much machine.
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How about a open box, commercial 1 group machine with these stats:
5.8 liter boiler
2100W heating element
220v
rotary pump
Automatic boiler filling
Double gauge (Boiler and pump pressure)
Heating control by pressure switch
Manual steam tap
Manual hot water tap
Dimensions (W X D X H) mm 430 x 510 x 510
Net weight 42kg
for about $500 shipped?
Maybe that's too much machine.
No such things as "too much machine"! What brand and model is it (PM me if you don't want to give too much info online)? My Bunn is 16x20x14, and that's about as big a machine as Mrs T will let me have on her counter top.
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Reneka - not sure of the model.
Supposedly never used. I almost believe it.
(http://www.reneka.com/content/images/66cea3767117b2b4ec1ab05e671300fc.jpg)
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Reneka - not sure of the model.
Supposedly never used. I almost believe it.
([url]http://www.reneka.com/content/images/66cea3767117b2b4ec1ab05e671300fc.jpg[/url])
I've never used or worked on a Reneka Viva E. It is French made, so it's got one strike against it to start with. Here's a short thread: http://coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machines/336913 (http://coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machines/336913) that might help?
If it was me, I'd give it a try for $500.
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The price it too low, like it might be a scammer. If it's legit, you could use it for some time and probably sell it for more than you paid for it.
But they won't work with a Grindmaster or Rossi. ;)
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The price it too low, like it might be a scammer. If it's legit, you could use it for some time and probably sell it for more than you paid for it.
But they won't work with a Grindmaster or Rossi. ;)
No, but I bet this great French grinder would work!
(http://bestanimations.com/careers/Trade/Carpentry/Hammer-03-june.gif)
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I wonder if that Reneka is just too big for my space.
There is a Nuova Simonelli Mac in Chicago for $350: http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/bfs/1787937934.html (http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/bfs/1787937934.html)
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Is
I wonder if that Reneka is just too big for my space.
There is a Nuova Simonelli Mac in Chicago for $350: [url]http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/bfs/1787937934.html[/url] ([url]http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/bfs/1787937934.html[/url])
Is there any stone left unturned?
B|Java
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I wonder if that Reneka is just too big for my space.
There is a Nuova Simonelli Mac in Chicago for $350: [url]http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/bfs/1787937934.html[/url] ([url]http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/bfs/1787937934.html[/url])
Now that machine I can discuss. I had one and loved it; in fact if I didn't think the Bunn ES-1A is one of the best commercial machines for home use, I'd still have my Mac Digit!
It is BIG & HEAVY, and it does have it's flaws (you can scorch your fingers if you hold the hot water lever while pulling a container of water), but if you can't pull a kick-ass shot with this machine it's your fault, not the machines!
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Is I wonder if that Reneka is just too big for my space.
There is a Nuova Simonelli Mac in Chicago for $350: [url]http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/bfs/1787937934.html[/url] ([url]http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/bfs/1787937934.html[/url])
Is there any stone left unturned?
B|Java
I am pretty thorough.
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I wonder if that Reneka is just too big for my space.
There is a Nuova Simonelli Mac in Chicago for $350: [url]http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/bfs/1787937934.html[/url] ([url]http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/bfs/1787937934.html[/url])
How big is your space? The Reneka can't look much bigger than the Mac Digit, and at $500 it's the bargain of a lifetime; make room for the Reneka.
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You are right, but the Reneka is bigger. Deal of a lifetime may be an exaggeration. If It came around once, something similar probably will happen again.
And B/Jovial, there are some pretty good espresso machines listed at Sears of all places.
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You are right, but the Reneka is bigger. Deal of a lifetime may be an exaggeration. If It came around once, something similar probably will happen again.
And B/Jovial, there are some pretty good espresso machines listed at Sears of all places.
Oh really ... what do they carry?
???
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Sears has a Marketplace similar to Amazon's (I think). So, places list their stuff like this on it:
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_SP100A1076S173245018P?prdNo=3 (http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_SP100A1076S173245018P?prdNo=3)
Still it was surprising to find a La Marzocco Gs/3 1 Group Auto Espresso Machine listed there.
Also, I suspect that a complaint to Sears about one of their vendors might carry some weight if you weren't getting anywhere with the vendor.
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A little extra research is leading me to conclude that mp may have made a good suggestion by bringing up Vibiemme.
I am informed they use the heaviest of the E-61 groups. They have the restrictor on the HX thermosyphon to minimize the tendency to overheat. There is the option of getting a double boiler unit (though I am not convinced it is needed). There are no plans for a PID for the Junior units.
There is a passive pre-infusion on the lever manual units as detailed in the Q and A from 1st Line:
Q. The Manual version has a a three-position lever (off, passive pre-infusion, brew). This sounds like it gives me more control, but it does make me totally responsible for timing and stopping the brew. Is that correct?
A. This is 100% correct.
Q. The Automatic version has buttons that can be configured to different brew timing (or far-right button can act 'like' a manual switch [push once to start, push again to stop). Does the automatic do any 'passive pre-infusion', or does just click on/off, skipping the 'middle' step that the manual lever provides?
A. Yes, but
a) Not everyone uses the preinfusion of the lever, and
b) the machine kind of has a built-in preinfusion - it takes about 4-7 seconds for the vibe pump to get up to full pressure, so this is kind of a built-in preinfusion.
Q. I like the idea of controlling the pre-infusion (Manual) [and the lever looks sexy too !!!], but the programmability feature is also enticing [Automatic] and could be useful if I want to simplify use for a family member or friend.
A. Exactly. In addition, the electronic model could have one button programmed as a flush of the grouphead.
Have to think about this.
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Have to think about this.
Think about it as you're driving over. :)
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Have to think about this.
Think about it as you're driving over. :)
Kill 3 birds with one stone
1) Meet Schotzie and imbide her browned nectar
2) See the wonders of a Macap
3) Experience the social dimension of the Cabal, all over again
"...Visconsawn this Summer." Chamber of Commerce
B|Java
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Have to think about this.
Think about it as you're driving over. :)
Looking forward to Pyment's decision on his new espresso machine.
:)
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Have to think about this.
Think about it as you're driving over. :)
Looking forward to Pyment's decision on his new espresso machine.
:)
Personally, I don't think Pyment will buy one; it's the hunt that has him enthralled, the idea of owning a machine. Buying one will mess that all up.
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Have to think about this.
Think about it as you're driving over. :)
Looking forward to Pyment's decision on his new espresso machine.
:)
Personally, I don't think Pyment will buy one; it's the hunt that has him enthralled, the idea of owning a machine. Buying one will mess that all up.
Oh ... I see ... so you are saying he is a hunter ... but he is not a killer ... or in MMA terms ... he is not a finisher.
Is that right?
???
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That's what I'm sayin'.
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That's what I'm sayin'.
:o :o :o
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Have to think about this.
Think about it as you're driving over. :)
Looking forward to Pyment's decision on his new espresso machine.
:)
Personally, I don't think Pyment will buy one; it's the hunt that has him enthralled, the idea of owning a machine. Buying one will mess that all up.
Oh ... I see ... so you are saying he is a hunter ... but he is not a killer ... or in MMA terms ... he is not a finisher.
Is that right?
???
Maybe it's a new MMA term - window shopper.
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Timing is everything. This is true in coffee as in life. I have a schedule and am still in the research phase but am reaching the end of it.
Next phase is the negotiation phase. This is complicated by the fact that I just got the BGE.
In this phase, I have to make a case that, in spite of not using my current super-auto very much, I will use the planned machine more. I also know that the grill will need a 20 amp circuit and need to look at my circuit board to be sure of where the new machine will end up. I think step one will be to convince my wife that the espresso set up needs to be moved from its current location. Hence the emphasis on looks.
Then comes the purchase phase. Always the easiest if the groundwork is done well in the 1st 2 phases.
The only thing that will cause significant deviation from the Plan, will be a super buy on an acceptable machine. Carping from the peanut gallery will have no effect.
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Timing is everything. This is true in coffee as in life. I have a schedule and am still in the research phase but am reaching the end of it.
Next phase is the negotiation phase. This is complicated by the fact that I just got the BGE.
In this phase, I have to make a case that, in spite of not using my current super-auto very much, I will use the planned machine more. I also know that the grill will need a 20 amp circuit and need to look at my circuit board to be sure of where the new machine will end up. I think step one will be to convince my wife that the espresso set up needs to be moved from its current location. Hence the emphasis on looks.
Then comes the purchase phase. Always the easiest if the groundwork is done well in the 1st 2 phases.
The only thing that will cause significant deviation from the Plan, will be a super buy on an acceptable machine. Carping from the peanut gallery will have no effect.
Although the peanut gallery would like no more than to spend your money viariously ... in the end the decision of when and if to pull the trigger will rest with you.
;)
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Carping from the peanut gallery will have no effect.
Can we just nip at your heels then? ;D
I see you going through some of the same gymnastics as I did, Py. The big difference being that my significant other only cares about what time I walk her and whether there's food and water in her bowl.
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fine.
I may just recruit people to look at local machines for me. Milwaukee, Seattle, and any other locations peanut gallery members can be found.
I'll do the same for you in Monroe. ;D
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fine.
I may just recruit people to look at local machines for me. Milwaukee, Seattle, and any other locations peanut gallery members can be found.
I'll do the same for you in Monroe. ;D
Py
Always happy to help in Seattle area
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A litlle follow up on the Roaste.com machines. I asked who provides the product support and service on the Vibiemmes they sell. At least the Vibiemmes come from 1st Line.
Currently, www.roaste.com/ (http://www.roaste.com/) is selling their Vibiemmes at the same price as 1st line, but they have a 10% off coupon.
Same is true for the Rocket machines.
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A litlle follow up on the Roaste.com machines. I asked who provides the product support and service on the Vibiemmes they sell. At least the Vibiemmes come from 1st Line.
Currently, [url=http://www.roaste.com/]www.roaste.com/[/url] ([url]http://www.roaste.com/[/url]) is selling their Vibiemmes at the same price as 1st line, but they have a 10% off coupon.
Same is true for the Rocket machines.
And that's how retailers get around MAP & MSRP restrictions. Limited duration special offers exempts them from those pesky limitations.
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I know.
No reason one of us shouldn't take advantage, right? I know I got my Rocky below MAP from Chris Coffee by calling them.
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The big difference being that my significant other only cares about what time I walk her and whether there's food and water in her bowl.
That is a big, BIG, GIANT, COLOSSAL difference.
I have no idea why you don't have 3 machines on the counter right now. ;)
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The big difference being that my significant other only cares about what time I walk her and whether there's food and water in her bowl.
That is a big, BIG, GIANT, COLOSSAL difference.
I have no idea why you don't have 3 machines on the counter right now. ;)
Mainly 'cuz then Jeffo wouldn't know which nekkid PF to shoot. ;D
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The big difference being that my significant other only cares about what time I walk her and whether there's food and water in her bowl.
That is a big, BIG, GIANT, COLOSSAL difference.
I have no idea why you don't have 3 machines on the counter right now. ;)
I don't know why you down have 6 machines on the counter right now.
:-X
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Thanks for the correction MP. ;)
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I think the reason he doesn't have 3-6 machines on the counter now is he needs to add on to the counter.
He also is a strong believer in learning the 1st machine before he gets the other 2-5.
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Thanks for the correction MP. ;)
Glad to help.
;)
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I think the reason he doesn't have 3-6 machines on the counter now is he needs to add on to the counter.
He also is a strong believer in learning the 1st machine before he gets the other 2-5.
Ah ... so Schotzie is going to have sibblings ....
:)
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Having been cautioned about all the space I am taking up, I have to redefine what to look for in an espresso machine and added a size requirement. This had me looking at lever machines like the Pavoni. It seems the main problem with levers is that most seem to overheat after the first 2-3 shots and then require extended cool down. The exceptions would be the Achille which operates like an HX machine and the Ponte Vecchio Lusso which has a grouphead that is detached from the boiler and heated by thermosyphon (a la e61) with an adjustable pressure stat. There are also lots of cautions out there for espresso novices (like me) to stay away. But The guy who I have talked to about the Pavoni said he would give me basic lessons.
back to square one.
Well after reading reviews and Home Barista's article on "How I Stopped Worrying and
Learned to Love HXs", I decided I could learn to love an HX too. Unfortunately, I fell asleep on an auction for a Bezzera and let that get away (maybe to be relisted). So, I am looking for a low cost HX (with Fiorenzato, Vibiemme, and Bezzera as the current front runners) with a small footprint as well as still investigating levers.
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Having been cautioned about all the space I am taking up, I have to redefine what to look for in an espresso machine and added a size requirement. This had me looking at lever machines like the Pavoni. It seems the main problem with levers is that most seem to overheat after the first 2-3 shots and then require extended cool down. The exceptions would be the Achille which operates like an HX machine and the Ponte Vecchio Lusso which has a grouphead that is detached from the boiler and heated by thermosyphon (a la e61) with an adjustable pressure stat. There are also lots of cautions out there for espresso novices (like me) to stay away. But The guy who I have talked to about the Pavoni said he would give me basic lessons.
back to square one.
Well after reading reviews and Home Barista's article on "How I Stopped Worrying and
Learned to Love HXs", I decided I could learn to love an HX too. Unfortunately, I fell asleep on an auction for a Bezzera and let that get away (maybe to be relisted). So, I am looking for a low cost HX (with Fiorenzato, Vibiemme, and Bezzera as the current front runners) with a small footprint as well as still investigating levers.
Marcuzz/Bezzera: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120588784225 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120588784225)
As for lever machines, there are ways to manage the heat build up. (http://home.earthlink.net/~r_harmon/La%20Pavoni/Europiccola/how%20to%20use.htm)
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Having been cautioned about all the space I am taking up, I have to redefine what to look for in an espresso machine and added a size requirement. This had me looking at lever machines like the Pavoni. It seems the main problem with levers is that most seem to overheat after the first 2-3 shots and then require extended cool down. The exceptions would be the Achille which operates like an HX machine and the Ponte Vecchio Lusso which has a grouphead that is detached from the boiler and heated by thermosyphon (a la e61) with an adjustable pressure stat. There are also lots of cautions out there for espresso novices (like me) to stay away. But The guy who I have talked to about the Pavoni said he would give me basic lessons.
back to square one.
Well after reading reviews and Home Barista's article on "How I Stopped Worrying and
Learned to Love HXs", I decided I could learn to love an HX too. Unfortunately, I fell asleep on an auction for a Bezzera and let that get away (maybe to be relisted). So, I am looking for a low cost HX (with Fiorenzato, Vibiemme, and Bezzera as the current front runners) with a small footprint as well as still investigating levers.
HX is a good way to go for both straight espresso and milk based drinks. One piece of advice that I have would be to absolutely choose a machine that will accept a grouphead digital thermometer. Using the thermometer takes all the guessing out of temperature management.
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Thanks.
I'll be watching that auction.
As for the lever action, Tex's link is helpful. Is an IR thermometer useful in all espresso machines? I was concerned the reflective surface would make readings inconsistent.
I have been considering making an offer on a Fiorenzato Bricoletta on eBay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330307771514&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330307771514&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT)
waiting for the right moment to suggest it to my wife who is still a little hot over how much space the Grindmaster grinder takes.
addendum:
The Bezzera BZ07 has a strong Cost for features recommendation from someone who has tried a lot of machines. Apparently the grouphead has a heating element with a thermostat to control temperature. Which I think is adjustable.
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I put a strip of cloth electrician's tape on the boiler. You're the first person in 3 years or so to notice the omission! :D
This is nice (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320554260832&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT), but a bit pricey. Then again, it is a work of art! ::)
Mrs T still gives me THAT LOOK when I put something new on the counter. I just ask her what percentage of the closet and storage space is dedicated for her stuff. Surprisingly, that doesn't mollify her one bit? ???
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I have been considering making an offer on a Fiorenzato Bricoletta on eBay. [url]http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330307771514&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT[/url] ([url]http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330307771514&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT[/url])
waiting for the right moment to suggest it to my wife who is still a little hot over how much space the Grindmaster grinder takes.
That machine should serve you well. 1.5 liter boiler, 2100 watts & E61 Group for consistent and great shots.
When you smacking your money down?
???
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there are some other priorities right now. Sibling with serious illness for one.
window shopping is a nice distraction.
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there are some other priorities right now. Sibling with serious illness for one.
window shopping is a nice distraction.
I use my espresso machines as a distraction from reality. I'm good at compartmentalizing, so when I'm doing the reality thing I'm there 100%. Likewise, when I'm avoiding reality it's totally blocked out.
Whatever works for you is good!
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there are some other priorities right now. Sibling with serious illness for one.
window shopping is a nice distraction.
Well then you may want to check this out!
http://cgi.ebay.com/SINGLE-HEAD-COMMERCIAL-ESPRESSO-MACHINE-/200489271523?cmd=ViewItem&pt=BI_Hot_Beverage_Brewers&hash=item2eae1780e3 (http://cgi.ebay.com/SINGLE-HEAD-COMMERCIAL-ESPRESSO-MACHINE-/200489271523?cmd=ViewItem&pt=BI_Hot_Beverage_Brewers&hash=item2eae1780e3)
:)
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Or ... you may want to check this out:
http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=lever+espresso+machine&_sacat=0&_stpos=14305&_sop=15&gbr=1&_dmpt=BI_Hot_Beverage_Brewers&_dmd=1&_odkw=commercial+espresso+machine&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313 (http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=lever+espresso+machine&_sacat=0&_stpos=14305&_sop=15&gbr=1&_dmpt=BI_Hot_Beverage_Brewers&_dmd=1&_odkw=commercial+espresso+machine&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313)
:)
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don't see one like this every day!
http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-Pavoni-Espresso-Machine-Coffee-Maker-ITALY-/200489671899?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eae1d9cdb (http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-Pavoni-Espresso-Machine-Coffee-Maker-ITALY-/200489671899?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eae1d9cdb)
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You're right ... she looks like a beauty!
:)
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Robert may want to look at this one:
http://austin.craigslist.org/bfs/1817588398.html (http://austin.craigslist.org/bfs/1817588398.html)
or this little piece of history:
http://rochester.craigslist.org/atq/1772179865.html (http://rochester.craigslist.org/atq/1772179865.html)
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They both look nice!
:)
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In researching levers, I ran across one of John F's threads over at HB.
I figured he would be interested in this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120588207640&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120588207640&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT)
He better pull the trigger soon though as there are others sniffing around.
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Good price for that one.
Here is another one for you ... Shaun would be proud of you if you were to get this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Expobar-Brewtus-Espresso-Machine-Rancilio-Rocky-Grinder_W0QQitemZ250658441850QQcategoryZ38252QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp4340.m8QQ_trkparmsZalgo%3DMW%26its%3DC%26itu%3DUCC%26otn%3D5%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D7442533249802093405 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Expobar-Brewtus-Espresso-Machine-Rancilio-Rocky-Grinder_W0QQitemZ250658441850QQcategoryZ38252QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp4340.m8QQ_trkparmsZalgo%3DMW%26its%3DC%26itu%3DUCC%26otn%3D5%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D7442533249802093405)
:)
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my wife would be so impressed if acquired a 3rd espresso grinder.
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my wife would be so impressed if acquired a 3rd espresso grinder.
You have an excuse for that one ... just tell her it is a journeyman ... and will be shipped off to another land far far away.
;D
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The Bezzera BZ07 has a strong Cost for features recommendation from someone who has tried a lot of machines. Apparently the grouphead has a heating element with a thermostat to control temperature. Which I think is adjustable.
I suppose it would be better with a PID?
http://www.idrinkcoffee.com/Bezzera_BZ07P_Espresso_Machine_w_PID_p/sa-bez-bz07pid-b15.htm (http://www.idrinkcoffee.com/Bezzera_BZ07P_Espresso_Machine_w_PID_p/sa-bez-bz07pid-b15.htm)
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The Bezzera BZ07 has a strong Cost for features recommendation from someone who has tried a lot of machines. Apparently the grouphead has a heating element with a thermostat to control temperature. Which I think is adjustable.
I suppose it would be better with a PID?
[url]http://www.idrinkcoffee.com/Bezzera_BZ07P_Espresso_Machine_w_PID_p/sa-bez-bz07pid-b15.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.idrinkcoffee.com/Bezzera_BZ07P_Espresso_Machine_w_PID_p/sa-bez-bz07pid-b15.htm[/url])
Everything is better with a PID.
Don't cha know?
;D
-
The Bezzera BZ07 has a strong Cost for features recommendation from someone who has tried a lot of machines. Apparently the grouphead has a heating element with a thermostat to control temperature. Which I think is adjustable.
I suppose it would be better with a PID?
[url]http://www.idrinkcoffee.com/Bezzera_BZ07P_Espresso_Machine_w_PID_p/sa-bez-bz07pid-b15.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.idrinkcoffee.com/Bezzera_BZ07P_Espresso_Machine_w_PID_p/sa-bez-bz07pid-b15.htm[/url])
Everything is better with a PID.
Don't cha know?
;D
Ain't that the truth! ;D
edited: Working on a new product: armadillo luwak - feeding them nothing but robusta cherries & stink bugs ought to produce a complex flavor profile. Any cuppers?
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Texas also has hotrod Armadillos.
;D
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Texas also has hotrod Armadillos.
;D
Yeah, this is all you see of them.
(http://stevecreek.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/armadillo_2891.jpg)
Actually, I think that's Larry and two of the cabal streaking?
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Done. If they ship fast I might have it for the weekend, if not it looks like levers ahoy on Mon. ;-)
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I knew with 100% certainty you would have both machines on your counter before years end.
Now go shorten up my leaning curve Racer X. ;D ;D
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I knew with 100% certainty you would have both machines on your counter before years end.
Now go shorten up my leaning curve Racer X. ;D ;D
Just doing what I can to help a friend. In the meantime I'm going to go watch one of my fave clips, it always motivates, "Team Sugar Land are go...!" ;-)
Thunderbirds Are Go!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2K9rVRuehGU#)
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Just doing what I can to help a friend. In the meantime I'm going to go watch one of my fave clips, it always motivates, "Team Sugar Land are go...!" ;-)
Yep....I'm a few steps behind you but will be there soon. 8)
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Congrats Shaun!
I like how the shipping address is just Shaun Taylor. You are so very much the man, that this is all they have to put down and every link in the shipping chain knows exactly what to do with the parcel. Even without a street number or city, they just know, 'cuz when you say Shaun Taylor, you said it all.
;D
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Congrats Shaun!
I like how the shipping address is just Shaun Taylor. You are so very much the man, that this is all they have to put down and every link in the shipping chain knows exactly what to do with the parcel. Even without a street number or city, they just know, 'cuz when you say Shaun Taylor, you said it all.
;D
Haha, very good. Unfortunately the invoice also says 'Shaun Taylor'. ;-)
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You are so very much the man, that this is all they have to put down and every link in the shipping chain knows exactly what to do with the parcel. Even without a street number or city, they just know, 'cuz when you say Shaun Taylor, you said it all.
Like a Dos Equis commercial.
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Done. If they ship fast I might have it for the weekend, if not it looks like levers ahoy on Mon. ;-)
Sh!^ hot. This is like finding a new mystery writer who you really, really enjoy and then read in the paper that he is working on his 2nd book.
Are they shipping that bad boy from Italy? I couldn't figure out the math they had done. Did they back out some VAT or something?
B|Java
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Done. If they ship fast I might have it for the weekend, if not it looks like levers ahoy on Mon. ;-)
Sh!^ hot. This is like finding a new mystery writer who you really, really enjoy and then find out he is working on his 2nd book.
Are they shipping that bad boy from Italy? I couldn't figure out the math they had done. Did they back out some VAT or something?
B|Java
Yeah ... I was wondering too ... would it not have been cheaper ordering it from 1st line?
???
Never mind ... it would not have been cheaper ... how did you ever think of that ... who would have thought shipping from Italy would have been cheaper than shipping from the US.
???
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Done. If they ship fast I might have it for the weekend, if not it looks like levers ahoy on Mon. ;-)
Sh!^ hot. This is like finding a new mystery writer who you really, really enjoy and then read in the paper that he is working on his 2nd book.
Are they shipping that bad boy from Italy? I couldn't figure out the math they had done. Did they back out some VAT or something?
B|Java
Indeed, that double lever action is coming from Italy. You got it, they backed the VAT out and then I hit it with a discount code. I ordered from http://www.espressocoffeeshop.com/ (http://www.espressocoffeeshop.com/) take a look at their 'International Orders' info section on the right hand side of their website. Delivered to my door they were the most competitive I found.
The BII and accessories are going to a neighbor a few days after I get the lever. I thought about keeping both of them together for a longer period of time but in the end I wanted to keep more of an open mind for the level journey and so I'll let the BII go fairly quickly.
I'm pretty excited to see what this new forest path brings.
-
Done. If they ship fast I might have it for the weekend, if not it looks like levers ahoy on Mon. ;-)
Sh!^ hot. This is like finding a new mystery writer who you really, really enjoy and then read in the paper that he is working on his 2nd book.
Are they shipping that bad boy from Italy? I couldn't figure out the math they had done. Did they back out some VAT or something?
B|Java
Indeed, that double lever action is coming from Italy. You got it, they backed the VAT out and then I hit it with a discount code. I ordered from [url]http://www.espressocoffeeshop.com/[/url] ([url]http://www.espressocoffeeshop.com/[/url]) take a look at their 'International Orders' info section on the right hand side of their website. Delivered to my door they were the most competitive I found.
The BII and accessories are going to a neighbor a few days after I get the lever. I thought about keeping both of them together for a longer period of time but in the end I wanted to keep more of an open mind for the level journey and so I'll let the BII go fairly quickly.
I'm pretty excited to see what this new forest path brings.
Well done Mr. Ponte Vechio
;)
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That's Mr. Ponte Vecchio Lusso (2 Group) to my friends. ;-)
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That's Mr. Ponte Vecchio Lusso (2 Group) to my friends. ;-)
So when is the ETA of The Old Bridge (Ponte Vecchio)?
???
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That's Mr. Ponte Vecchio Lusso (2 Group) to my friends. ;-)
So when is the ETA of The Old Bridge (Ponte Vecchio)?
???
My 6yr old just asked me the same question, "Dad, when does your new espresso machine get here?" and my response was "when you see me pulling down on the lever and drinking the espresso".
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That's Mr. Ponte Vecchio Lusso (2 Group) to my friends. ;-)
So when is the ETA of The Old Bridge (Ponte Vecchio)?
???
My 6yr old just asked me the same question, "Dad, when does your new espresso machine get here?" and my response was "when you see me pulling down on the lever and drinking the espresso".
According to your store you should have the machine by tomorrow?
"8. What is the estimate delivery time?
We ship out our international orders quickly. If an item is in stock, it will normally be sent out the next day. After that, it depends on the method of delivery you have chosen when you placed your order. For Europe and North America the average delivery time is 2 working days, 3-4 days for the rest of the world."
So assuming you ordered yesterday you should have your machine by tomorrow.
:o
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If it gets here before the weekend that would be mighty fine, but I suspect the 2 group might be a bit slower as they get them direct from the factory (according to all the reading I've done on various forums) rather than have them sitting in their inventory, till then I'll wander over to the Brewtus and pull shots, which is exactly what I'm going to go do right now.
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If it gets here before the weekend that would be mighty fine, but I suspect the 2 group might be a bit slower as they get them direct from the factory (according to all the reading I've done on various forums) rather than have them sitting in their inventory, till then I'll wander over to the Brewtus and pull shots, which is exactly what I'm going to go do right now.
Well ... even if it doesn't ... I always thought they would ship it by boat from Europe. At least that is how I understood human shipping happened way back when ...
:drunken_smilie:
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Indeed, that double lever action is coming from Italy. You got it, they backed the VAT out and then I hit it with a discount code. I ordered from [url]http://www.espressocoffeeshop.com/[/url] ([url]http://www.espressocoffeeshop.com/[/url]) take a look at their 'International Orders' info section on the right hand side of their website. Delivered to my door they were the most competitive I found.
snipped
Thanks for the lead Shaun! I priced the Gaggia Classic there (http://www.espressocoffeeshop.com/store/gaggia_classic.html), and it came to $382 shipped, without a coupon!
I'll pass this info along to the Gaggia forum members, but first I'll have to verify that they can provide 120 VAC machines?
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If you put something in your cart, there's a drop-down for voltage choice. At least there was on the Macap grinder I was looking at.
And don't forget shipping on the Gaggia.
-
If you put something in your cart, there's a drop-down for voltage choice. At least there was on the Macap grinder I was looking at.
And don't forget shipping on the Gaggia.
Some products have voltage selection - some don't?
$382 for the Gaggia Classic included S&H and VAT rebate, but no coupon code. If it's available in 120 VAC format I'm sure I can generate some interest, like we did for the Classic Costco sold. I never got an answer to how many units Costco moved, all the importer would say was "a lot".
I'll bet Importika would be pissed if this panned out! >:D
edited: Don't forget import duty when you calculate prices: US = ~4%
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If you put something in your cart, there's a drop-down for voltage choice. At least there was on the Macap grinder I was looking at.
And don't forget shipping on the Gaggia.
Some products have voltage selection - some don't?
$382 for the Gaggia Classic included S&H and VAT rebate, but no coupon code. If it's available in 120 VAC format I'm sure I can generate some interest, like we did for the Classic Costco sold. I never got an answer to how many units Costco moved, all the importer would say was "a lot".
I'll bet Importika would be pissed if this panned out! >:D
You're just looking after your own pocket.
:)
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There are options: http://shop.lagondola.it/ (http://shop.lagondola.it/)
I've bought stuff from them and they ship fast.
Just out of curiosity, what import duties, and/or other fees, does Canada stick it's residents for on stuff bought/shipped from Italy?
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I read over on HB a while back that the import duties are going to be around 9% for 'coffee device'. At the end of the day, whatever the additional costs are I'll absorb them, I wanted the PVL and I live in Canada so nothing I can do about it.
I think the 8988 discount code is generic but you can send them a quick email to see if there is a deeper discount on each machine you might be interested in.
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I read over on HB a while back that the import duties are going to be around 9% for 'coffee device'. At the end of the day, whatever the additional costs are I'll absorb them, I wanted the PVL and I live in Canada so nothing I can do about it.
I think the 8988 discount code is generic but you can send them a quick email to see if there is a deeper discount on each machine you might be interested in.
It didn't lower the price on the Classic - must be a one-use coupon? I sent a request for a code for it.
-
I read over on HB a while back that the import duties are going to be around 9% for 'coffee device'. At the end of the day, whatever the additional costs are I'll absorb them, I wanted the PVL and I live in Canada so nothing I can do about it.
I think the 8988 discount code is generic but you can send them a quick email to see if there is a deeper discount on each machine you might be interested in.
It didn't lower the price on the Classic - must be a one-use coupon? I sent a request for a code for it.
Something tells me that Robert is going to find 5 or 6 European web sites that will ship to North America.
;D
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..so I'll let the BII go fairly quickly.
"Now that's a bold statement"
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I read over on HB a while back that the import duties are going to be around 9% for 'coffee device'. At the end of the day, whatever the additional costs are I'll absorb them, I wanted the PVL and I live in Canada so nothing I can do about it.
I think the 8988 discount code is generic but you can send them a quick email to see if there is a deeper discount on each machine you might be interested in.
Shaun ... consider yourself lucky that you only have to pay 9%. In Ontario we have to pay 9% + HST 13% bringing it up to 22%.
This could be considered legalized theft.
:o
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..so I'll let the BII go fairly quickly.
"Now that's a bold statement"
I know, but it's the only way I can dive into the lever scene without constantly making 'unfair' comparisons between it and the BII. Funnily enough the neighbor buying the machine slid over for 30mins to chat on the back deck and pick up a pound of beans, he came in to the kitchen to eyeball my/his machine and he's pretty excited.
Man, he doesn't know how lucky he is... my machine, my espresso blends, my schooling him in his own kitchen. Any questions and I'm a 1min walk away. That's a pretty good way to start into his first day of espresso.
-
I read over on HB a while back that the import duties are going to be around 9% for 'coffee device'. At the end of the day, whatever the additional costs are I'll absorb them, I wanted the PVL and I live in Canada so nothing I can do about it.
I think the 8988 discount code is generic but you can send them a quick email to see if there is a deeper discount on each machine you might be interested in.
Shaun ... consider yourself lucky that you only have to pay 9%. In Ontario we have to pay 9% + HST 13% bringing it up to 22%.
This could be considered legalized theft.
:o
I don't miss Ontario, at all.
-
well just to dredge up an old thread. It seems that you can separate the espresso journey into steps (excluding steam toys).
Step 1 - Single boiler dual use systems. I suppose one should look for units that can be upgraded to step 2 use. The most famous entries at this level would be the Gaggia Classic/Baby series and the Rancilio Silvia. They have good internals and record of durability. The 3 way solenoid is a nicity that most seem to value. There are other entries that can be found for a good price - Isomac Venus/Maverick/Giada Le'Lit PL041, . Skill is needed to get extraction at the proper temp. Usually requiring temp surfing.
Step 2 - This is the reason to be somewhat careful about the machine one purchases as a step 1 unit. If you are somewhat mechanical (or know someone who is), you can upgrade some of the SBDU's with a PID to get a more consistent brew temp. Some people buy SBDU's with the intent of adding a PID right away and some buy units already PID'd. I get the impression that you want a unit with pretty good innards to make it worthy of the additional investment of time and $$. Some people can be quite happy for a long time with this kind of unit. We will have to see how long B/Java stays here after his latest round of upgrade-itis.
BTW, I am surprized that B/Java (Mr happy-with-stock-Silvia) was able to go through this little episode of upgrading with little fanfare and less humor at his expense. B/upgrader got off easy this time around.
Step 3 - Heat exchanger seems to be the next step (cost wise at least). The motivator for moving to this step is "need for steam". People seem to get frustrated when trying to make a bunch of milk drinks in a row and want the instant steam provided by an HX machine. Temp surfing as done with this machine seems a lot easier and consistent than on a SBDU unit.
Step 4 - Double boiler units with separate boilers for steam and brewing seem to give the ultimate control over steam and brew temps. For most this is at a much higher $$.
then there are lever machines that really don't fit the progression.
Do I have it right?
-
well just to dredge up an old thread. It seems that you can separate the espresso journey into steps (excluding steam toys).
Step 1 - Single boiler dual use systems. I suppose one should look for units that can be upgraded to step 2 use. The most famous entries at this level would be the Gaggia Classic/Baby series and the Rancilio Silvia. They have good internals and record of durability. The 3 way solenoid is a nicity that most seem to value. There are other entries that can be found for a good price - Isomac Venus/Maverick/Giada Le'Lit PL041, . Skill is needed to get extraction at the proper temp. Usually requiring temp surfing.
Step 2 - This is the reason to be somewhat careful about the machine one purchases as a step 1 unit. If you are somewhat mechanical (or know someone who is), you can upgrade some of the SBDU's with a PID to get a more consistent brew temp. Some people buy SBDU's with the intent of adding a PID right away and some buy units already PID'd. I get the impression that you want a unit with pretty good innards to make it worthy of the additional investment of time and $$. Some people can be quite happy for a long time with this kind of unit. We will have to see how long B/Java stays here after his latest round of upgrade-itis.
BTW, I am surprized that B/Java (Mr happy-with-stock-Silvia) was able to go through this little episode of upgrading with little fanfare and less humor at his expense. B/upgrader got off easy this time around.
Step 3 - Heat exchanger seems to be the next step (cost wise at least). The motivator for moving to this step is "need for steam". People seem to get frustrated when trying to make a bunch of milk drinks in a row and want the instant steam provided by an HX machine. Temp surfing as done with this machine seems a lot easier and consistent than on a SBDU unit.
Step 4 - Double boiler units with separate boilers for steam and brewing seem to give the ultimate control over steam and brew temps. For most this is at a much higher $$.
then there are lever machines that really don't fit the progression.
Do I have it right?
I agree with what you said, but would clarify it a bit more. Any espresso machine that is properly tuned has the capability of making good espresso. What is properly tuned? Control of the brewing temperature in 1°F increments, and control of brewing pressure at or near 9 bar pressure.
With the above in mind, I'd rate the necessity of an adjustable OPV & PID as being far more important than a 3-way valve, which contributes nothing to the quality of the shot. There are other factors: boiler size & material, heating element power, group design, ..., that contribute to the quality of the machine; but these are far less important than the ability to tune the brew temp & brew pressure.
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I was trying to use the 3 way solenoid as a marker for when other internals of the machine reach the point where they are worth upgrading. You usually don't see the 3way solenoid in cheaper machines.
I wonder what would be the least expensive machine with an adjustible OPV?
-
I have noticed it is hard to tell which machines have the adjustable OPV.
-
I was trying to use the 3 way solenoid as a marker for when other internals of the machine reach the point where they are worth upgrading. You usually don't see the 3way solenoid in cheaper machines.
I wonder what would be the least expensive machine with an adjustible OPV?
New or used? A new Gaggia Classic is $499 & a new Silvia costs $649.
Has one or can easily be fitted with one? Milo just paid $20 for a used Gaggia Carezza and if he added a bolt-on Classic OPV (~$50), he'd be halfway to building a tunable espresso machine. Throw in the assembled parts to PID it and he'd have ~$120 invested in a kick ass machine capable of making great shots.
Or he could spend $1500+ on a prosumer machine that'll also be capable of making great espresso.
Hmmm, which way to go? At least it's nice to have options!
-
well just to dredge up an old thread. It seems that you can separate the espresso journey into steps (excluding steam toys).
Step 1 - Single boiler dual use systems. I suppose one should look for units that can be upgraded to step 2 use. The most famous entries at this level would be the Gaggia Classic/Baby series and the Rancilio Silvia. They have good internals and record of durability. The 3 way solenoid is a nicity that most seem to value. There are other entries that can be found for a good price - Isomac Venus/Maverick/Giada Le'Lit PL041, . Skill is needed to get extraction at the proper temp. Usually requiring temp surfing.
Step 2 - This is the reason to be somewhat careful about the machine one purchases as a step 1 unit. If you are somewhat mechanical (or know someone who is), you can upgrade some of the SBDU's with a PID to get a more consistent brew temp. Some people buy SBDU's with the intent of adding a PID right away and some buy units already PID'd. I get the impression that you want a unit with pretty good innards to make it worthy of the additional investment of time and $$. Some people can be quite happy for a long time with this kind of unit. We will have to see how long B/Java stays here after his latest round of upgrade-itis.
BTW, I am surprized that B/Java (Mr happy-with-stock-Silvia) was able to go through this little episode of upgrading with little fanfare and less humor at his expense. B/upgrader got off easy this time around.
Step 3 - Heat exchanger seems to be the next step (cost wise at least). The motivator for moving to this step is "need for steam". People seem to get frustrated when trying to make a bunch of milk drinks in a row and want the instant steam provided by an HX machine. Temp surfing as done with this machine seems a lot easier and consistent than on a SBDU unit.
Step 4 - Double boiler units with separate boilers for steam and brewing seem to give the ultimate control over steam and brew temps. For most this is at a much higher $$.
then there are lever machines that really don't fit the progression.
Do I have it right?
I think that's a good overview, but rather than call it steps in a journey I would simply call them 'machine categories' for lack of a better term. Steps to me indicates a logical progression, when in fact the double boiler units may not be a necessary progression for someone who feels they are getting what they want in the previous step and step 1 doesn't seem like a logical starting point for a person with a large budget.
Generally the category a person finds themselves in is dictated by budget. If a person had an infinite amount of money I don't see the need to start at step 1 to work through a progression of frustration and I would recommend for them to go to a double boiler unit just to control the variables better and provide greater entertainment capacity/experimentation capacity. If the unlimited budget person wanted to 'buy an education' it would be worthwhile getting a good HX machine where they had to spend a year learning how to properly temp-surf which can teach a person a few things about thermal properties in relationship to shot pulling. From there they could move to double boiler which removes the temp-surf 'guessing' but they still have a decent understanding or thermals - but buying an HX to learn, then switching to a double boiler to produce on would be a luxury.
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I have noticed it is hard to tell which machines have the adjustable OPV.
It's easy to sell a 3-way valve - that's all that's been talked about for years. It's tough to sell an adjustable OPV - that implies that your new machine may need tweaking right out of the box.
If I was in the business of selling espresso machines for home use I'd start with the Gaggia Classic and incorporate a PID. Then I'd have all machines pretuned to 9 bar pressure and 200°F brew temp. I'd price them at ~$600 and watch them fly out the door!
That would set the bar for home machines and force everyone else to play catch up. Unfortunately, Gaggia isn't all that bright - they'd rather be a niche player than try heading the pack.
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To be fair it was $25 ;D I'm onto another one this week for $20.
You do have to upgrade the Gaggia Steam wand too, but that takes 10 minutes if you are slow.
here is one Gaggia with all the bells and whistles. (PID, Adjustable OPV, Silvia Steam wand) Total cost $150 (I paid $60 for this machine before the modifications).
(http://www.larryscoffees.com/gaggia/Espresso2.JPG)
I've found 3 Gaggia (like new) in CL over the last 6 months for under $30. One of them came with 2 steaming pitchers.
-
well just to dredge up an old thread. It seems that you can separate the espresso journey into steps (excluding steam toys).
Step 1 - Single boiler dual use systems. I suppose one should look for units that can be upgraded to step 2 use. The most famous entries at this level would be the Gaggia Classic/Baby series and the Rancilio Silvia. They have good internals and record of durability. The 3 way solenoid is a nicity that most seem to value. There are other entries that can be found for a good price - Isomac Venus/Maverick/Giada Le'Lit PL041, . Skill is needed to get extraction at the proper temp. Usually requiring temp surfing.
Step 2 - This is the reason to be somewhat careful about the machine one purchases as a step 1 unit. If you are somewhat mechanical (or know someone who is), you can upgrade some of the SBDU's with a PID to get a more consistent brew temp. Some people buy SBDU's with the intent of adding a PID right away and some buy units already PID'd. I get the impression that you want a unit with pretty good innards to make it worthy of the additional investment of time and $$. Some people can be quite happy for a long time with this kind of unit. We will have to see how long B/Java stays here after his latest round of upgrade-itis.
BTW, I am surprized that B/Java (Mr happy-with-stock-Silvia) was able to go through this little episode of upgrading with little fanfare and less humor at his expense. B/upgrader got off easy this time around.
Step 3 - Heat exchanger seems to be the next step (cost wise at least). The motivator for moving to this step is "need for steam". People seem to get frustrated when trying to make a bunch of milk drinks in a row and want the instant steam provided by an HX machine. Temp surfing as done with this machine seems a lot easier and consistent than on a SBDU unit.
Step 4 - Double boiler units with separate boilers for steam and brewing seem to give the ultimate control over steam and brew temps. For most this is at a much higher $$.
then there are lever machines that really don't fit the progression.
Do I have it right?
I think that's a good overview, but rather than call it steps in a journey I would simply call them 'machine categories' for lack of a better term. Steps to me indicates a logical progression, when in fact the double boiler units may not be a necessary progression for someone who feels they are getting what they want in the previous step and step 1 doesn't seem like a logical starting point for a person with a large budget.
Generally the category a person finds themselves in is dictated by budget. If a person had an infinite amount of money I don't see the need to start at step 1 to work through a progression of frustration and I would recommend for them to go to a double boiler unit just to control the variables better and provide greater entertainment capacity/experimentation capacity. If the unlimited budget person wanted to 'buy an education' it would be worthwhile getting a good HX machine where they had to spend a year learning how to properly temp-surf which can teach a person a few things about thermal properties in relationship to shot pulling. From there they could move to double boiler which removes the temp-surf 'guessing' but they still have a decent understanding or thermals - but buying an HX to learn, then switching to a double boiler to produce on would be a luxury.
I will only comment that amongst many leading espresso experts (a word I'm reluctant to use), the SBDU machine is considered the best machine for the home barista wishing to maximize their enjoyment of what each bean has to offer. In that context, cost isn't an issue - it's all about flexablity in fine tuning the machine.
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To be fair it was $25 ;D I'm onto another one this week for $20.
You do have to upgrade the Gaggia Steam wand too, but that takes 10 minutes if you are slow.
here is one Gaggia with all the bells and whistles. (PID, Adjustable OPV, Silvia Steam wand) Total cost $150 (I paid $60 for this machine before the modifications).
I've found 3 Gaggia (like new) in CL over the last 6 months for under $30. One of them came with 2 steaming pitchers.
And for another $5, you can add control of the steam circuit and have a machine that even the frou-frou mavens would be happy with.
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Does the OPV affect flavor? here is a thread from CG that seems to imply that Jim from 1st line doesn't think so.
http://coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machines/334261 (http://coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machines/334261)
What I get from this is that the pressure is really determined by grind and tamp rather than anything in the system.
I did start a thread on this on 1st lines forums here:
http://www.baristadude.com/domains/baristadude.com/forums/default.aspx?g=posts&t=24 (http://www.baristadude.com/domains/baristadude.com/forums/default.aspx?g=posts&t=24)
Feel free to chime in there!
Jim answered, but I am not sure he spoke to whether it is important.
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I was really thinking about finding some SBDU machine for a good price and doing the upgrade.
like this:
http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/app/1861297792.html (http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/app/1861297792.html)
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I really want to get my brain around this OPV thing. It isn't making sense to me.
If, as I understand, it redirects the water when the pressure reaches a certain point. By preventing higher pressures it might lead to better pump life.
let me think this through. Extraction is related to surface area (which itself is related to weight of coffee and grind size). Water volume (this is flow rate through the puck) is related to resistance and pressure. Temperature is related to the temperature of water entering the brew chamber and the thermal mass of the group (which is related to material weight, thermal properties of the metal and group temp at the time of extraction).
If you have a valve that limits the top pressure value applied to the puck, it would mostly come into play when you grind too finely or tamp too hard. If you grind too coarsely or tamp weakly, pressure would never reachthe point where the OPV would come into play. OTOH if grind is too fine or tamped with too much pressure, more volume would be diverted back into the tank and it would take longer to get the same volume of espresso. Would it be over extracted because longer contact time? If you cut off the water at the usual time would itbe underextracted because of less volume? or do the effects of contact time and volume just cancel each other out? Are there too many variables to balance and having pressure steady just eliminates one of them?
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Does this help?
(http://home.earthlink.net/~cm_harmon/images/OPV-PRV%20diagram.gif) (http://home.earthlink.net/~r_harmon/OPV-PRV%20page.htm)
The idea is to reduce variables to constants. Using the same dose of coffee and the same tamp, and having a fixed flow of water, the only variable is grind coarseness. Nothing should change from shot to shot other than the grind.
And anyone suggesting that an OPV is unnecessary isn't playing with a full deck! Maybe they also believe that necessity for temperature control is also an urban myth?
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I will only comment that amongst many leading espresso experts (a word I'm reluctant to use), the SBDU machine is considered the best machine for the home barista wishing to maximize their enjoyment of what each bean has to offer. In that context, cost isn't an issue - it's all about flexablity in fine tuning the machine.
I will only comment that this is TOTAL BS false propaganda. I realize you want to sell these units but to make statement like this is just propaganda without any basis in fact. Fine if that's all you can afford but "the best machine...(with its 3 1/2 oz boiler). BS!!!!!!!!!
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I will only comment that amongst many leading espresso experts (a word I'm reluctant to use), the SBDU machine is considered the best machine for the home barista wishing to maximize their enjoyment of what each bean has to offer. In that context, cost isn't an issue - it's all about flexablity in fine tuning the machine.
I will only comment that this is TOTAL BS false propaganda. I realize you want to sell these units but to make statement like this is just propaganda without any basis in fact. Fine if that's all you can afford but "the best machine...(with its 3 1/2 oz boiler). BS!!!!!!!!!
And you're an argumentative jerk. I suggest you look on Home Barista and you'll find that Jim Schulman and others agree with me that a SBDU machine is best for making espresso with various SO beans. Now shut up and go away!
And for some anonymous nimrod to question my motives is the height of absurdity!
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I will only comment that amongst many leading espresso experts (a word I'm reluctant to use), the SBDU machine is considered the best machine for the home barista wishing to maximize their enjoyment of what each bean has to offer. In that context, cost isn't an issue - it's all about flexablity in fine tuning the machine.
I will only comment that this is TOTAL BS false propaganda. I realize you want to sell these units but to make statement like this is just propaganda without any basis in fact. Fine if that's all you can afford but "the best machine...(with its 3 1/2 oz boiler). BS!!!!!!!!!
And you're an argumentative jerk. I suggest you look on Home Barista and you'll find that Jim Schulman and others agree with me that a SBDU machine is best for making espresso with various SO beans. Now shut up and go away!
And for some anonymous nimrod to question my motives is the height of absurdity!
Good answer Tex. Shows your intelligence and debating skills.
With statements like the one I quoted you are one of two things
1- A snake-oil salesman totally over-hyping what are useful machines
2- A stupid idiot who knows nothing about espresso machines
Take your pick
ps - Scchulman said no such thing in the context you want it to look like. What kind of machine does Schulman use? Jerk
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How do you make a "Hardware & Equipment" thread qualify for "Hot Topics"?
???
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I will only comment that amongst many leading espresso experts (a word I'm reluctant to use), the SBDU machine is considered the best machine for the home barista wishing to maximize their enjoyment of what each bean has to offer. In that context, cost isn't an issue - it's all about flexablity in fine tuning the machine.
I will only comment that this is TOTAL BS false propaganda. I realize you want to sell these units but to make statement like this is just propaganda without any basis in fact. Fine if that's all you can afford but "the best machine...(with its 3 1/2 oz boiler). BS!!!!!!!!!
And you're an argumentative jerk. I suggest you look on Home Barista and you'll find that Jim Schulman and others agree with me that a SBDU machine is best for making espresso with various SO beans. Now shut up and go away!
And for some anonymous nimrod to question my motives is the height of absurdity!
Good answer Tex. Shows your intelligence and debating skills.
With statements like the one I quoted you are one of two things
1- A snake-oil salesman totally over-hyping what are useful machines
2- A stupid idiot who knows nothing about espresso machines
Take your pick
ps - Scchulman said no such thing in the context you want it to look like. What kind of machine does Schulman use? Jerk
His context was that given the ease with which one can change their brew temp, the small boiler SBDU machines are preferable as a day-to-day machine. The boiler on a SBDU machine can be drawn down, temp changed, and restabilized in a matter of minutes. To do the same thing with a DB or HX is a time consuming prospect.
And if you see any mention of a Gaggia in what I posted earlier you're delusional. You just like to argue with everything I say, but posit nothing of your own. I'm guessing that you're alan from a.c & a-c-m; you pull the same BS.
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I will only comment that amongst many leading espresso experts (a word I'm reluctant to use), the SBDU machine is considered the best machine for the home barista wishing to maximize their enjoyment of what each bean has to offer. In that context, cost isn't an issue - it's all about flexablity in fine tuning the machine.
I will only comment that this is TOTAL BS false propaganda. I realize you want to sell these units but to make statement like this is just propaganda without any basis in fact. Fine if that's all you can afford but "the best machine...(with its 3 1/2 oz boiler). BS!!!!!!!!!
And you're an argumentative jerk. I suggest you look on Home Barista and you'll find that Jim Schulman and others agree with me that a SBDU machine is best for making espresso with various SO beans. Now shut up and go away!
And for some anonymous nimrod to question my motives is the height of absurdity!
Good answer Tex. Shows your intelligence and debating skills.
With statements like the one I quoted you are one of two things
1- A snake-oil salesman totally over-hyping what are useful machines
2- A stupid idiot who knows nothing about espresso machines
Take your pick
ps - Scchulman said no such thing in the context you want it to look like. What kind of machine does Schulman use? Jerk
His context was that given the ease with which one can change their brew temp, the small boiler SBDU machines are preferable as a day-to-day machine. The boiler on a SBDU machine can be drawn down, temp changed, and restabilized in a matter of minutes. To do the same thing with a DB or HX is a time consuming prospect.
And if you see any mention of a Gaggia in what I posted earlier you're delusional. You just like to argue with everything I say, but posit nothing of your own. I'm guessing that you're alan from a.c & a-c-m; you pull the same BS.
Still a BS nonsense answer. Your words betray you and I ask who is argumentative – YOU!
So is it
1- Snake-oil salesmen
2- Idiot
?????????????
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I will only comment that amongst many leading espresso experts (a word I'm reluctant to use), the SBDU machine is considered the best machine for the home barista wishing to maximize their enjoyment of what each bean has to offer. In that context, cost isn't an issue - it's all about flexablity in fine tuning the machine.
I will only comment that this is TOTAL BS false propaganda. I realize you want to sell these units but to make statement like this is just propaganda without any basis in fact. Fine if that's all you can afford but "the best machine...(with its 3 1/2 oz boiler). BS!!!!!!!!!
And you're an argumentative jerk. I suggest you look on Home Barista and you'll find that Jim Schulman and others agree with me that a SBDU machine is best for making espresso with various SO beans. Now shut up and go away!
And for some anonymous nimrod to question my motives is the height of absurdity!
Good answer Tex. Shows your intelligence and debating skills.
With statements like the one I quoted you are one of two things
1- A snake-oil salesman totally over-hyping what are useful machines
2- A stupid idiot who knows nothing about espresso machines
Take your pick
ps - Scchulman said no such thing in the context you want it to look like. What kind of machine does Schulman use? Jerk
His context was that given the ease with which one can change their brew temp, the small boiler SBDU machines are preferable as a day-to-day machine. The boiler on a SBDU machine can be drawn down, temp changed, and restabilized in a matter of minutes. To do the same thing with a DB or HX is a time consuming prospect.
And if you see any mention of a Gaggia in what I posted earlier you're delusional. You just like to argue with everything I say, but posit nothing of your own. I'm guessing that you're alan from a.c & a-c-m; you pull the same BS.
Still a BS nonsense answer. Your words betray you and I ask who is argumentative – YOU!
So is it
1- Snake-oil salesmen
2- Idiot
?????????????
:)
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popcorn! Peanuts! Soda Pop!
(http://www.gifs.net/Animation11/Jobs_and_People/Vendors/Popcorn_vendor.gif)
Glad I resurrected this thread.
(Some real opportunity to make some cash)
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Tex
Here is what your EXPERT Schulman advised somone asking about a SBDU (QM Alexia) just YESTERDAY QUOTED
http://www.home-barista.com/advice/oh-alexia-now-that-my-budget-is-blown-is-my-thinking-flawed-too-t14828.html (http://www.home-barista.com/advice/oh-alexia-now-that-my-budget-is-blown-is-my-thinking-flawed-too-t14828.html)
"You have a solid grinder in the Cunill, which puts you well ahead of the game.
As a beginner, you won't just be inconsistent, you'll also be prone to pay too much attention to specs, to make mountains out of molehills, and to lose perspective.
-- The contribution of PID control to shot quality is negligible when compared to the normal controls on commercial level machines (pressure stats or vapor bulbs). They are a big deal compared to the miserable bimetallic button stats on home machines, but once you get into the 1K and above range, they are merely convenience items.
-- Much more important is deciding on a large single boiler versus an entry level HX. Both make great espresso, but the HX will also steam fast, while the large single boilers take a lot of time to switch over. Nobody I know of has remained with one of these large single boilers for long, whether they drink only espresso or use the steam. Everybody buys an HX or double boiler within a year or two. Apparently waiting forever to steam even once a month eventually gets tired. My advice is to look into an NS Oscar, Bezzera, Expobar and any other entry level HX. Board members tend to talk up the large single boilers as "purist machines;" but being virtuous is cheap when it's just talk and the single boiler pink elephants is on someone else's counter. So think long and hard about how purist you'll want to be next year."
You keep making over-hyped stupid claims about SBDU machines and you will get responses. I don’t want some naive espresso enthusiast to actually believe that stuff you spew out here.
Schulman calls SBDU machiness "pink elephants" that belong on someone elses counter!
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Tex
Here is what your EXPERT Schulman advised somone asking about a SBDU (QM Alexia) just YESTERDAY QUOTED
[url]http://www.home-barista.com/advice/oh-alexia-now-that-my-budget-is-blown-is-my-thinking-flawed-too-t14828.html[/url] ([url]http://www.home-barista.com/advice/oh-alexia-now-that-my-budget-is-blown-is-my-thinking-flawed-too-t14828.html[/url])
"You have a solid grinder in the Cunill, which puts you well ahead of the game.
As a beginner, you won't just be inconsistent, you'll also be prone to pay too much attention to specs, to make mountains out of molehills, and to lose perspective.
-- The contribution of PID control to shot quality is negligible when compared to the normal controls on commercial level machines (pressure stats or vapor bulbs). They are a big deal compared to the miserable bimetallic button stats on home machines, but once you get into the 1K and above range, they are merely convenience items.
-- Much more important is deciding on a large single boiler versus an entry level HX. Both make great espresso, but the HX will also steam fast, while the large single boilers take a lot of time to switch over. Nobody I know of has remained with one of these large single boilers for long, whether they drink only espresso or use the steam. Everybody buys an HX or double boiler within a year or two. Apparently waiting forever to steam even once a month eventually gets tired. My advice is to look into an NS Oscar, Bezzera, Expobar and any other entry level HX. Board members tend to talk up the large single boilers as "purist machines;" but being virtuous is cheap when it's just talk and the single boiler pink elephants is on someone else's counter. So think long and hard about how purist you'll want to be next year."
You keep making over-hyped stupid claims about SBDU machines and you will get responses. I don’t want some naive espresso enthusiast to actually believe that stuff you spew out here.
Schulman calls SBDU machiness "pink elephants" that belong on someone elses counter!
:)
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well just to dredge up an old thread. It seems that you can separate the espresso journey into steps (excluding steam toys).
Step 1 - Single boiler dual use systems. I suppose one should look for units that can be upgraded to step 2 use. The most famous entries at this level would be the Gaggia Classic/Baby series and the Rancilio Silvia. They have good internals and record of durability. The 3 way solenoid is a nicity that most seem to value. There are other entries that can be found for a good price - Isomac Venus/Maverick/Giada Le'Lit PL041, . Skill is needed to get extraction at the proper temp. Usually requiring temp surfing.
Step 2 - This is the reason to be somewhat careful about the machine one purchases as a step 1 unit. If you are somewhat mechanical (or know someone who is), you can upgrade some of the SBDU's with a PID to get a more consistent brew temp. Some people buy SBDU's with the intent of adding a PID right away and some buy units already PID'd. I get the impression that you want a unit with pretty good innards to make it worthy of the additional investment of time and $$. Some people can be quite happy for a long time with this kind of unit. We will have to see how long B/Java stays here after his latest round of upgrade-itis.
BTW, I am surprized that B/Java (Mr happy-with-stock-Silvia) was able to go through this little episode of upgrading with little fanfare and less humor at his expense. B/upgrader got off easy this time around.
Step 3 - Heat exchanger seems to be the next step (cost wise at least). The motivator for moving to this step is "need for steam". People seem to get frustrated when trying to make a bunch of milk drinks in a row and want the instant steam provided by an HX machine. Temp surfing as done with this machine seems a lot easier and consistent than on a SBDU unit.
Step 4 - Double boiler units with separate boilers for steam and brewing seem to give the ultimate control over steam and brew temps. For most this is at a much higher $$.
then there are lever machines that really don't fit the progression.
Do I have it right?
I think that's a good overview, but rather than call it steps in a journey I would simply call them 'machine categories' for lack of a better term. Steps to me indicates a logical progression, when in fact the double boiler units may not be a necessary progression for someone who feels they are getting what they want in the previous step and step 1 doesn't seem like a logical starting point for a person with a large budget.
Generally the category a person finds themselves in is dictated by budget. If a person had an infinite amount of money I don't see the need to start at step 1 to work through a progression of frustration and I would recommend for them to go to a double boiler unit just to control the variables better and provide greater entertainment capacity/experimentation capacity. If the unlimited budget person wanted to 'buy an education' it would be worthwhile getting a good HX machine where they had to spend a year learning how to properly temp-surf which can teach a person a few things about thermal properties in relationship to shot pulling. From there they could move to double boiler which removes the temp-surf 'guessing' but they still have a decent understanding or thermals - but buying an HX to learn, then switching to a double boiler to produce on would be a luxury.
I will only comment that amongst many leading espresso experts (a word I'm reluctant to use), the SBDU machine is considered the best machine for the home barista wishing to maximize their enjoyment of what each bean has to offer. In that context, cost isn't an issue - it's all about flexablity in fine tuning the machine.
I just saw your reply Tex, is that some kind of joke?
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I will only comment that amongst many leading espresso experts (a word I'm reluctant to use), the SBDU machine is considered the best machine for the home barista wishing to maximize their enjoyment of what each bean has to offer. In that context, cost isn't an issue - it's all about flexablity in fine tuning the machine.
I just saw your reply Tex, is that some kind of joke?
No, but it has to be read in context. Some of us believe that each coffee has it's own sweet spot of a temperature. If one accepts this as true, then it follows that it's far easier to manipulate the temp of a SBDU machine than either a HX or DB.
A PID'd SBDU machine can be drained, temp reset, and temp restabilized much faster and with less effort than the other machines. If the SBDU machine is properly tuned and the user knows how to use the machine it's the better machine UNDER THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES.
For most folks the DB is the better machine. Those folks don't like tweaking their machines for each new SO roast. For them I say fine - it works for you. Some of us like to tune & tweak to get the best from the beans - to them I say don't overlook the simplicity of the SBDU.
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The idea is to reduce variables to constants. Using the same dose of coffee and the same tamp, and having a fixed flow of water, the only variable is grind coarseness. Nothing should change from shot to shot other than the grind.
Uhmmmm, no. The idea is to understand the variables and try to control them so they are relatively constant, as you manipulate one variable against the other. This may mean (for the more advanced shot puller) adjusting grind, dose and tamp in the same shot as compared to the previous shot.
Your advice of nothing should change from shot to shot other than grind is so spectacularly bad I swallowed twice while my eyes were bugging out as I read it. If that is your approach to espresso you are missing a lot. Your only adjust grind advice is so one-dimensional I find it hard to believe that you are willing to type it and hit sent.
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I will only comment that amongst many leading espresso experts (a word I'm reluctant to use), the SBDU machine is considered the best machine for the home barista wishing to maximize their enjoyment of what each bean has to offer. In that context, cost isn't an issue - it's all about flexablity in fine tuning the machine.
I will only comment that this is TOTAL BS false propaganda. I realize you want to sell these units but to make statement like this is just propaganda without any basis in fact. Fine if that's all you can afford but "the best machine...(with its 3 1/2 oz boiler). BS!!!!!!!!!
I'm in total agreement GC7.
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The idea is to reduce variables to constants. Using the same dose of coffee and the same tamp, and having a fixed flow of water, the only variable is grind coarseness. Nothing should change from shot to shot other than the grind.
Uhmmmm, no. The idea is to understand the variables and try to control them so they are relatively constant, as you manipulate one variable against the other. This may mean (for the more advanced shot puller) adjusting grind, dose and tamp in the same shot as compared to the previous shot.
Your advice of nothing should change from shot to shot other than grind is so spectacularly bad I swallowed twice while my eyes were bugging out as I read it. If that is your approach to espresso you are missing a lot. Your only adjust grind advice is so one-dimensional I find it hard to believe that you are willing to type it and hit sent.
Based on your statements I believe you're the antithesis of what baristas should strive to achieve. Consistency from shot to shot is the hallmark of a professional in any field. It's the prima donna who strives for individuality at the expense of professional standards, trying to establish their superiority based on superfluous differences.
You and I have different standards, that's all. Good luck in finding that nirvana of coffeedom that you so desperately seek.
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Does the OPV affect flavor? here is a thread from CG that seems to imply that Jim from 1st line doesn't think so.
I don't have to read that thread to answer.....yes it does.
I've got no idea how it's even debatable for anybody that has experienced manipulating shots by just grind and tamp and then adding an OPV. It's really obvious in several ways.
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It's the prima donna who strives for individuality at the expense of professional standards, trying to establish their superiority based on superfluous differences.
Who picks standards and who decides what is superfluous and what isn't?
Espresso has more potential that a lot of people will either access or even attempt to access.
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I will only comment that amongst many leading espresso experts (a word I'm reluctant to use), the SBDU machine is considered the best machine for the home barista wishing to maximize their enjoyment of what each bean has to offer. In that context, cost isn't an issue - it's all about flexablity in fine tuning the machine.
I just saw your reply Tex, is that some kind of joke?
No, but it has to be read in context. Some of us believe that each coffee has it's own sweet spot of a temperature. If one accepts this as true, then it follows that it's far easier to manipulate the temp of a SBDU machine than either a HX or DB.
A PID'd SBDU machine can be drained, temp reset, and temp restabilized much faster and with less effort than the other machines. If the SBDU machine is properly tuned and the user knows how to use the machine it's the better machine UNDER THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES.
For most folks the DB is the better machine. Those folks don't like tweaking their machines for each new SO roast. For them I say fine - it works for you. Some of us like to tune & tweak to get the best from the beans - to them I say don't overlook the simplicity of the SBDU.
Read in context... are you kidding me... these are your words not mine "the SBDU machine is considered the best machine for the home barista wishing to maximize their enjoyment of what each bean has to offer".
If you were referring only to the SBDU's ability to show a different thermal property on a counter once it is turned off, drained, refilled, reset, and temp stabilized then perhaps bring that into the discussion.
If you think the strong point of an SBDU is it's thermal juggling act and that beans have heat sweet spots of beans and that the SBDU can change temperatures then talk about that. In my opinion, your general statement of SBDU's are 'the best' way to go to manage heat is merely your opinion based on what you like and use.
You are far to quick to make your generalized comments appear as fact, case in point... "For most folks the DB is the better machine. Those folks don't like tweaking their machines for each new SO roast." Those folks... I used to own a DB, so I guess that would make me one of 'those folks' and yet I tweaked my temps on my DB. Does that mean I was an anomaly because I tweaked my temps?
"Some of us like to tune & tweak to get the best from the beans" who exactly is the 'some of us' club? Are you the president and there's a whole pile of us that didn't get invited to the tune and tweak party?
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I will only comment that amongst many leading espresso experts (a word I'm reluctant to use), the SBDU machine is considered the best machine for the home barista wishing to maximize their enjoyment of what each bean has to offer. In that context, cost isn't an issue - it's all about flexablity in fine tuning the machine.
I just saw your reply Tex, is that some kind of joke?
No, but it has to be read in context. Some of us believe that each coffee has it's own sweet spot of a temperature. If one accepts this as true, then it follows that it's far easier to manipulate the temp of a SBDU machine than either a HX or DB.
A PID'd SBDU machine can be drained, temp reset, and temp restabilized much faster and with less effort than the other machines. If the SBDU machine is properly tuned and the user knows how to use the machine it's the better machine UNDER THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES.
For most folks the DB is the better machine. Those folks don't like tweaking their machines for each new SO roast. For them I say fine - it works for you. Some of us like to tune & tweak to get the best from the beans - to them I say don't overlook the simplicity of the SBDU.
Read in context... are you kidding me... these are your words not mine "the SBDU machine is considered the best machine for the home barista wishing to maximize their enjoyment of what each bean has to offer".
If you were referring only to the SBDU's ability to show a different thermal property on a counter once it is turned off, drained, refilled, reset, and temp stabilized then perhaps bring that into the discussion.
If you think the strong point of an SBDU is it's thermal juggling act and that beans have heat sweet spots of beans and that the SBDU can change temperatures then talk about that. In my opinion, your general statement of SBDU's are 'the best' way to go to manage heat is merely your opinion based on what you like and use.
You are far to quick to make your generalized comments appear as fact, case in point... "For most folks the DB is the better machine. Those folks don't like tweaking their machines for each new SO roast." Those folks... I used to own a DB, so I guess that would make me one of 'those folks' and yet I tweaked my temps on my DB. Does that mean I was an anomaly because I tweaked my temps?
"Some of us like to tune & tweak to get the best from the beans" who exactly is the 'some of us' club? Are you the president and there's a whole pile of us that didn't get invited to the tune and tweak party?
As I've said, you and I have different standards. Yours are by no means mainstream, while I try to work within the norms of the 4 M's. Good luck with the path you've chosen!
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The idea is to reduce variables to constants. Using the same dose of coffee and the same tamp, and having a fixed flow of water, the only variable is grind coarseness. Nothing should change from shot to shot other than the grind.
Uhmmmm, no. The idea is to understand the variables and try to control them so they are relatively constant, as you manipulate one variable against the other. This may mean (for the more advanced shot puller) adjusting grind, dose and tamp in the same shot as compared to the previous shot.
Your advice of nothing should change from shot to shot other than grind is so spectacularly bad I swallowed twice while my eyes were bugging out as I read it. If that is your approach to espresso you are missing a lot. Your only adjust grind advice is so one-dimensional I find it hard to believe that you are willing to type it and hit sent.
Based on your statements I believe you're the antithesis of what baristas should strive to achieve. Consistency from shot to shot is the hallmark of a professional in any field. It's the prima donna who strives for individuality at the expense of professional standards, trying to establish their superiority based on superfluous differences.
You and I have different standards, that's all. Good luck in finding that nirvana of coffeedom that you so desperately seek.
Consistency... I can pull a thousand shots in a row and recreate each shot before it. How do I know? I've done it... daily... in my own shop... for paying customers. Have you? So does that make me the antithesis of antithesis of antithesis of what baristas should strive for?
You are casually throwing out the professional barista card and professional standards, I forget, but you can remind me... exactly how many years have you worked in a demanding retail coffee environment driving a three group? Don't play the consistency card with me dude, I've paid dues you will never pay.
The growth of espresso as a drink and as an industry capable of more has been primarily due to visionaries, seekers, explorers, mad scientists, expanders, dreamers, and people unhappy with the status quo. Espresso of today and espresso of 8yrs ago is very, very different due to many factors including higher quality greens standards and blending techniques.
You and I do have different standards. It's called evolution.
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I will only comment that amongst many leading espresso experts (a word I'm reluctant to use), the SBDU machine is considered the best machine for the home barista wishing to maximize their enjoyment of what each bean has to offer. In that context, cost isn't an issue - it's all about flexablity in fine tuning the machine.
I just saw your reply Tex, is that some kind of joke?
No, but it has to be read in context. Some of us believe that each coffee has it's own sweet spot of a temperature. If one accepts this as true, then it follows that it's far easier to manipulate the temp of a SBDU machine than either a HX or DB.
A PID'd SBDU machine can be drained, temp reset, and temp restabilized much faster and with less effort than the other machines. If the SBDU machine is properly tuned and the user knows how to use the machine it's the better machine UNDER THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES.
For most folks the DB is the better machine. Those folks don't like tweaking their machines for each new SO roast. For them I say fine - it works for you. Some of us like to tune & tweak to get the best from the beans - to them I say don't overlook the simplicity of the SBDU.
Read in context... are you kidding me... these are your words not mine "the SBDU machine is considered the best machine for the home barista wishing to maximize their enjoyment of what each bean has to offer".
If you were referring only to the SBDU's ability to show a different thermal property on a counter once it is turned off, drained, refilled, reset, and temp stabilized then perhaps bring that into the discussion.
If you think the strong point of an SBDU is it's thermal juggling act and that beans have heat sweet spots of beans and that the SBDU can change temperatures then talk about that. In my opinion, your general statement of SBDU's are 'the best' way to go to manage heat is merely your opinion based on what you like and use.
You are far to quick to make your generalized comments appear as fact, case in point... "For most folks the DB is the better machine. Those folks don't like tweaking their machines for each new SO roast." Those folks... I used to own a DB, so I guess that would make me one of 'those folks' and yet I tweaked my temps on my DB. Does that mean I was an anomaly because I tweaked my temps?
"Some of us like to tune & tweak to get the best from the beans" who exactly is the 'some of us' club? Are you the president and there's a whole pile of us that didn't get invited to the tune and tweak party?
As I've said, you and I have different standards. Yours are by no means mainstream, while I try to work within the norms of the 4 M's. Good luck with the path you've chosen!
Puhhhhhllllleeeeeeeese.
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It's the prima donna who strives for individuality at the expense of professional standards, trying to establish their superiority based on superfluous differences.
Who picks standards and who decides what is superfluous and what isn't?
Espresso has more potential that a lot of people will either access or even attempt to access.
And I do understand that some are trying to access that potential, more power to them! But they're not mainstream in the espresso world, and I doubt they'll ever achieve their goals. But don't stop trying - every field has it's mavericks and I for one enjoy their efforts.
Just don't expect to convert mainstream guys like me into the Zen Buddhist philosophy of coffee making. Zen And The Art Of Motorcycle Mechanics was about my limit into that arena.
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Just don't expect to convert mainstream guys like me into the Zen Buddhist philosophy of coffee making.
I would never do that.
I do not try (any more) :-X :-X to get guys that are in love with Mc D's or DD coffee to understand anything outside their reality either.
But check this out, if they try to tell me Mc D's coffee is better than my specialty grade, meticulously cupped, and precision roasted coffee... I sort of know they are both right and wrong at the same time. They are right because they have individual taste and it's not in my ability to tell them what they prefer in their cups. But they are wrong because obviously, they are just wrong.
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The idea is to reduce variables to constants. Using the same dose of coffee and the same tamp, and having a fixed flow of water, the only variable is grind coarseness. Nothing should change from shot to shot other than the grind.
Uhmmmm, no. The idea is to understand the variables and try to control them so they are relatively constant, as you manipulate one variable against the other. This may mean (for the more advanced shot puller) adjusting grind, dose and tamp in the same shot as compared to the previous shot.
Your advice of nothing should change from shot to shot other than grind is so spectacularly bad I swallowed twice while my eyes were bugging out as I read it. If that is your approach to espresso you are missing a lot. Your only adjust grind advice is so one-dimensional I find it hard to believe that you are willing to type it and hit sent.
Based on your statements I believe you're the antithesis of what baristas should strive to achieve. Consistency from shot to shot is the hallmark of a professional in any field. It's the prima donna who strives for individuality at the expense of professional standards, trying to establish their superiority based on superfluous differences.
You and I have different standards, that's all. Good luck in finding that nirvana of coffeedom that you so desperately seek.
Consistency... I can pull a thousand shots in a row and recreate each shot before it. How do I know? I've done it... daily... in my own shop... for paying customers. Have you? So does that make me the antithesis of antithesis of antithesis of what baristas should strive for?
You are casually throwing out the professional barista card and professional standards, I forget, but you can remind me... exactly how many years have you worked in a demanding retail coffee environment driving a three group? Don't play the consistency card with me dude, I've paid dues you will never pay.
The growth of espresso as a drink and as an industry capable of more has been primarily due to visionaries, seekers, explorers, mad scientists, expanders, dreamers, and people unhappy with the status quo. Espresso of today and espresso of 8yrs ago is very, very different due to many factors including higher quality greens standards and blending techniques.
You and I do have different standards. It's called evolution.
Yeah Shaun, it was avant-garde baristas like you that drove the success of coffee for the past 30 years, not Starbuck's marketing skill. I'll admit there's a huge void between what they sell and the best we strive for. But to almost all of the known espresso market, people like you aren't even a pimple on the butt of a good cappuccino.
So, work on your skills and try to impress a select panel of coffee mavens? Who cares?
If what you do can't be translated into teaching points for the benefit of all baristas willing to learn new skills, what's the point? You're making espresso so esoteric that you're running the risk of becoming irrelevant to the mainstream.
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Just don't expect to convert mainstream guys like me into the Zen Buddhist philosophy of coffee making.
I would never do that.
I do not try (any more) :-X :-X to get guys that are in love with Mc D's or DD coffee to understand anything outside their reality either.
But check this out, if they try to tell me Mc D's coffee is better than my specialty grade, meticulously cupped, and precision roasted coffee... I sort of know they are both right and wrong at the same time. They are right because they have individual taste and it's not in my ability to tell them what they prefer in their cups. But they are wrong because obviously, they are just wrong.
See, we do agree from time to time John! ;D Everyone has their own context through which they judge the world. To some Mickey D's is a gourmet heaven. To me it's a cess pit! It's not a matter of who's right or wrong, is it? It's about understanding that everyone doesn't see things through the same contextual lenses. :angel:
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You're making espresso so esoteric that you're running the risk of becoming irrelevant to the mainstream.
I know you are talking to Staylor, but can you rephrase the above statement for those following along? I don't have any idea what that sentence is saying.
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You're making espresso so esoteric that you're running the risk of becoming irrelevant to the mainstream.
I know you are talking to Staylor, but can you rephrase the above statement for those following along? I don't have any idea what that sentence is saying.
Esoteric in regard to making the process such an insiders secret hand shake kind of thing, that only insiders can comprehend what you're saying. That was a common ploy of the self-improvement movement of the 70's & 80's; use buzz words so the uninitiated will be in awe of the graduates.
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Esoteric in regard to making the process such an insiders secret hand shake kind of thing, that only insiders can comprehend what you're saying.
Hmmmmm......
I'm tempted to do a few hundred words here.
Maybe for now just a simplified idea.
Perhaps every pursuit worthwhile has a few different levels we can participate at. Maybe the mainstream BBQ'ers are using Webbers and would say those that are dropping big money on heavy ceramics or commercial salamanders and talking about abnormal stuff like lump coal are acting like prima donnas.
Maybe the mainstream just hasn't tried to access the forums or water coolers where the next level bbq guys are talking about salamanders or they would learn there is no secret handshake....you just have to want to see what is going on over there and join in.
The way I see it there is nothing mainstream about espresso. From the very start we are getting involved in an esoteric exercise. Even baby steps like steam toys take you miles away from mainstream "expresso" and things only spiral away from there. Sort of like there are no mainstream newbie single malts. Some things lend themselves to advancing and further exploration.
Coffee is as deep as we care to explore....Most people stop at Mr. coffee machines at home and Starbucks on the run. Maybe a few get wild and buy a french press and a $40 grinder thinking they are real fanatics. :-X
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Consistency... I can pull a thousand shots in a row and recreate each shot before it. How do I know? I've done it... daily... in my own shop... for paying customers. Have you? So does that make me the antithesis of antithesis of antithesis of what baristas should strive for?
You are casually throwing out the professional barista card and professional standards, I forget, but you can remind me... exactly how many years have you worked in a demanding retail coffee environment driving a three group? Don't play the consistency card with me dude, I've paid dues you will never pay.
The growth of espresso as a drink and as an industry capable of more has been primarily due to visionaries, seekers, explorers, mad scientists, expanders, dreamers, and people unhappy with the status quo. Espresso of today and espresso of 8yrs ago is very, very different due to many factors including higher quality greens standards and blending techniques.
You and I do have different standards. It's called evolution.
Yeah Shaun, it was avant-garde baristas like you that drove the success of coffee for the past 30 years, not Starbuck's marketing skill. I'll admit there's a huge void between what they sell and the best we strive for. But to almost all of the known espresso market, people like you aren't even a pimple on the butt of a good cappuccino.
So, work on your skills and try to impress a select panel of coffee mavens? Who cares?
If what you do can't be translated into teaching points for the benefit of all baristas willing to learn new skills, what's the point? You're making espresso so esoteric that you're running the risk of becoming irrelevant to the mainstream.
You were calling me out on my consistency skills, I retorted, with facts. Here's your chance to impress your facts upon me with the factual account of the largest amount of consistent shots you've pulled in a day __________, in a week ____________, in a year __________? What's that, did I just hear crickets over there, is that silence? Silence on your consistency position? Call me out and you're gonna get a reply and that reply won't let you off the hook for the nonsense you've been scribbling out. I think the difference between us might be that I'll admit when I'm guessing, or when I just don't know.
Since it seems you carefully choose to sidestep your own nonsense when you are called on it, I'll get on to your most recent nonsense in this post...
This debate wasn't about the success of coffee, that growth curve started back around WWII with freeze dried. But that was a pretty slick (not) attempt at redirecting things again, because of course I claimed the success of coffee is because of guys like me and my 3 x t-shirts that say "I'm an avant-garde barista", I know I claimed that, wait I'm going back through the thread... uhmmm, huh, it's not there anymore, I'm sure I claimed the success of coffee is directly related to my efforts. Hey, maybe you could take a look and let me know where it went. Get back to me on that one. Really, get back to me, or I can wait for the crickets again.
"So, work on your skills and try to impress a select panel of coffee mavens? Who cares?" I explain what I do. I explain what the current industry does. I explain when someone is spouting nonsense. Maybe you forgot to put in an order for a coffee maven t-shirt and apparently you don't care, maybe that's it.
"If what you do can't be translated into teaching points for the benefit of all baristas willing to learn new skills, what's the point?" Interesting approach, quite a diversion from only a page ago where your main teaching point was... everything has to stay the same, except the grind - only ever change the grind. You need some new strawman skills because what you've got going is so predictable bad that it's boring having to keep wading through it. The same old attempt at making statements as if they are factual and then throwing enough huffing and puffing behind it that somehow it might gain traction, it's Comedy Central when reading back through some of the things you have stated as fact about espresso. But since it appears you are hesitant to move away from your predictable (and boring a long time ago) tactic of writing carefully crafted sentences to appear factual I will yet again retort with actual facts... What I do can and has been translated into teaching points, for the benefits of baristas WILLING TO LEARN new skills. Those aren't secret abilities by the way, in fact today my son taught me how to turn some lego into a laser blaster, a machinist taught me how to approach a particular problem via several different paths and I'm hoping to teach someone to stop writing opinion as fact.
"You're making espresso so esoteric that you're running the risk of becoming irrelevant to the mainstream." About that esoteric statement, that could have some factual weight to it as I do adjust more things than just my grind - like a lot of professionals and passionate amateurs do, all over the world. Is that what you mean by esoteric, and what risk am I'm running again?
Edited - for spelling.
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I will only comment that amongst many leading espresso experts (a word I'm reluctant to use), the SBDU machine is considered the best machine for the home barista wishing to maximize their enjoyment of what each bean has to offer. In that context, cost isn't an issue - it's all about flexablity in fine tuning the machine.
I will only comment that this is TOTAL BS false propaganda. I realize you want to sell these units but to make statement like this is just propaganda without any basis in fact. Fine if that's all you can afford but "the best machine...(with its 3 1/2 oz boiler). BS!!!!!!!!!
I'm in total agreement GC7.
Thank you. SBDU units can make really fine espresso and are certainly a good choice for those whose budgets and commitment to espresso are not as great as some others. BUT - to claim they are the very best choice is just wrong and needs to be challenged.
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SBDU units can make really fine espresso and are certainly a good choice for those whose budgets and commitment to espresso are not as great as some others. BUT - to claim they are the very best choice is just wrong and needs to be challenged.
Irony... it's funny. ;D
While I agree with your point towards Tex I think you are doing a similar thing here....but it's whatever.
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John – I’m not really sure where you are going with that statement but I’ll try to explain.
Anyone who simply can’t afford a budget above (mostly significantly above) $1K will be able to get good espresso with a SBDU and a commitment to learning basic barista skills. There will be certain sacrifices with temperature stability over multiple shots, satisfying a group and with milk drinks. Those folks are getting the best they can for the money they can afford and I think that's great. They can of course be very committed to espresso.
Alternatively, someone might really enjoy espresso while in coffee houses and want to explore the possibility of having it available at home. They are not totally committed to home espresso or possibly did not do enough research so they go with a less expensive SBDU which many might still seem like a huge investment in coffee equipment. If and when these folks become “more committed†to making home espresso my guess is that they upgrade if they can afford it. Maybe these are the reasons Jim Schulman wrote that most enthusiasts who can do so will dump SBDU’s after a year or two.
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John – I’m not really sure where you are going with that statement but I’ll try to explain.
I was saying something like; we can't know/measure how committed somebody is to espresso by their machines ability to steam milk.
;)
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John – I’m not really sure where you are going with that statement but I’ll try to explain.
I was saying something like; we can't know/measure how committed somebody is to espresso by their machines ability to steam milk.
;)
Absolutely agree. I am certainly not being judgemental of anyone or their "committment" and hope my explaination above clarifies a bit.
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John – I’m not really sure where you are going with that statement but I’ll try to explain.
Anyone who simply can’t afford a budget above (mostly significantly above) $1K will be able to get good espresso with a SBDU and a commitment to learning basic barista skills. There will be certain sacrifices with temperature stability over multiple shots, satisfying a group and with milk drinks. Those folks are getting the best they can for the money they can afford and I think that's great. They can of course be very committed to espresso.
Alternatively, someone might really enjoy espresso while in coffee houses and want to explore the possibility of having it available at home. They are not totally committed to home espresso or possibly did not do enough research so they go with a less expensive SBDU which many might still seem like a huge investment in coffee equipment. If and when these folks become “more committed†to making home espresso my guess is that they upgrade if they can afford it. Maybe these are the reasons Jim Schulman wrote that most enthusiasts who can do so will dump SBDU’s after a year or two.
I just don't get how you equate one's solvency with the need to buy an of-the-shelf espresso machine in order to make better espresso? I guess we grew up in a different era and environment? I could afford to buy a new 'vette in the 60's and did so. I also ran a B stock GTO at Lions & in the mid - late 60's. But my favorite was a 350 ci Chevy II that I built from the ground up. It gave me great satisfaction to beat the factory cars with my budget rocket.
My point is, some folks get a lot of satisfaction from building or rebuilding their own equipment. To them buying a factory prepped machine is just plain boring, when the real fun is knowing the quality of every nut & bolt in a machine. If you don't get that, you'll never understand the attraction of the Gaggia & Silvia to so many folks. And if you've never tried it, you'll never be able to judge the quality of espresso they're capable of producing in the right hands.
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John – I’m not really sure where you are going with that statement but I’ll try to explain.
Anyone who simply can’t afford a budget above (mostly significantly above) $1K will be able to get good espresso with a SBDU and a commitment to learning basic barista skills. There will be certain sacrifices with temperature stability over multiple shots, satisfying a group and with milk drinks. Those folks are getting the best they can for the money they can afford and I think that's great. They can of course be very committed to espresso.
Alternatively, someone might really enjoy espresso while in coffee houses and want to explore the possibility of having it available at home. They are not totally committed to home espresso or possibly did not do enough research so they go with a less expensive SBDU which many might still seem like a huge investment in coffee equipment. If and when these folks become “more committed†to making home espresso my guess is that they upgrade if they can afford it. Maybe these are the reasons Jim Schulman wrote that most enthusiasts who can do so will dump SBDU’s after a year or two.
I just don't get how you equate one's solvency with the need to buy an of-the-shelf espresso machine in order to make better espresso? I guess we grew up in a different era and environment? I could afford to buy a new 'vette in the 60's and did so. I also ran a B stock GTO at Lions & in the mid - late 60's. But my favorite was a 350 ci Chevy II that I built from the ground up. It gave me great satisfaction to beat the factory cars with my budget rocket.
My point is, some folks get a lot of satisfaction from building or rebuilding their own equipment. To them buying a factory prepped machine is just plain boring, when the real fun is knowing the quality of every nut & bolt in a machine. If you don't get that, you'll never understand the attraction of the Gaggia & Silvia to so many folks. And if you've never tried it, you'll never be able to judge the quality of espresso they're capable of producing in the right hands.
Tex
It’s YOU who doesn’t get it. I said that I have no problem at all with someone buying new or rebuilding anything from a Gaggia up to a five group LM if that is what gives them pleasure. I will gladly admit that group to people who will be satisfied or get pleasure out of espresso from SBDU machines or any other that they helped to build with their own hands.
What I am absolutely questioning is YOUR blanket statement that the SBDU units are better than machines like a La Spaz V2 or HX machines. Your VASTLY over-hyped claims regarding the capabilities of SBDU units are what is being disputed – nothing more.
PS- you have no idea what machines I have either used or had friends pull shots using for me to sample so why look foolish (again) by trying to do so?
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John – I’m not really sure where you are going with that statement but I’ll try to explain.
Anyone who simply can’t afford a budget above (mostly significantly above) $1K will be able to get good espresso with a SBDU and a commitment to learning basic barista skills. There will be certain sacrifices with temperature stability over multiple shots, satisfying a group and with milk drinks. Those folks are getting the best they can for the money they can afford and I think that's great. They can of course be very committed to espresso.
Alternatively, someone might really enjoy espresso while in coffee houses and want to explore the possibility of having it available at home. They are not totally committed to home espresso or possibly did not do enough research so they go with a less expensive SBDU which many might still seem like a huge investment in coffee equipment. If and when these folks become “more committed†to making home espresso my guess is that they upgrade if they can afford it. Maybe these are the reasons Jim Schulman wrote that most enthusiasts who can do so will dump SBDU’s after a year or two.
I just don't get how you equate one's solvency with the need to buy an of-the-shelf espresso machine in order to make better espresso? I guess we grew up in a different era and environment? I could afford to buy a new 'vette in the 60's and did so. I also ran a B stock GTO at Lions & in the mid - late 60's. But my favorite was a 350 ci Chevy II that I built from the ground up. It gave me great satisfaction to beat the factory cars with my budget rocket.
My point is, some folks get a lot of satisfaction from building or rebuilding their own equipment. To them buying a factory prepped machine is just plain boring, when the real fun is knowing the quality of every nut & bolt in a machine. If you don't get that, you'll never understand the attraction of the Gaggia & Silvia to so many folks. And if you've never tried it, you'll never be able to judge the quality of espresso they're capable of producing in the right hands.
Tex
It’s YOU who doesn’t get it. I said that I have no problem at all with someone buying new or rebuilding anything from a Gaggia up to a five group LM if that is what gives them pleasure. I will gladly admit that group to people who will be satisfied or get pleasure out of espresso from SBDU machines or any other that they helped to build with their own hands.
What I am absolutely questioning is YOUR blanket statement that the SBDU units are better than machines like a La Spaz V2 or HX machines. Your VASTLY over-hyped claims regarding the capabilities of SBDU units are what is being disputed – nothing more.
PS- you have no idea what machines I have either used or had friends pull shots using for me to sample so why look foolish (again) by trying to do so?
You're absurdity is showing, my friend. I've only said the PID'd SBDU is best in certain circumstances and in certain hands. For me, a DB or HX is too much trouble for my day-to-day needs. And given that I roast a half-pound of coffee three times a week, the SBDU machine permits me to tailor the temp/pressure combo with more ease than the HX or DB.
So, I say that given the circumstances, a PID'd Gaggia or Silvia best fits my needs. I've never claimed it's the best for everyone - just me!
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You absolutely did not say just for you and furthermore you falsely claimed that Schulman agreed with you. I showed that claim was wrong as well.
In any event I'm glad that you now back down and say that the PID'ed SBDU is only best for you. Pink Elephants must look good on your kitchen counter. >:D
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You absolutely did not say just for you and furthermore you falsely claimed that Schulman agreed with you. I showed that claim was wrong as well.
In any event I'm glad that you now back down and say that the PID'ed SBDU is only best for you. Pink Elephants must look good on your kitchen counter. >:D
Inappropriate comment deleted. 8)
edited: I rate espresso machines by the quality of the coffee they make, not the statement they make about my net worth.
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You absolutely did not say just for you and furthermore you falsely claimed that Schulman agreed with you. I showed that claim was wrong as well.
In any event I'm glad that you now back down and say that the PID'ed SBDU is only best for you. Pink Elephants must look good on your kitchen counter. >:D
Inappropriate comment deleted. 8)
edited: I rate espresso machines by the quality of the coffee they make, not the statement they make about my net worth.
I'm glad we agree about your edit regarding coffee quality. That's why your over hyped claims were rebuked by most everyone including your expert Schulman.
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You absolutely did not say just for you and furthermore you falsely claimed that Schulman agreed with you. I showed that claim was wrong as well.
In any event I'm glad that you now back down and say that the PID'ed SBDU is only best for you. Pink Elephants must look good on your kitchen counter. >:D
Inappropriate comment deleted. 8)
edited: I rate espresso machines by the quality of the coffee they make, not the statement they make about my net worth.
I'm glad we agree about your edit regarding coffee quality. That's why your over hyped claims were rebuked by most everyone including your expert Schulman.
Now why would you say everyone? Your use of hyperbole is an indicator of your doubts about your own beliefs, otherwise you'd stick to the point. EVERYONE? HA!
Edited: You have no credibility in this discussion because you offer nothing but unfounded criticism.
With Shaun and me, at least one can understand where each other is coming from - I'm a minimalist with experience using every type of machine made. Shaun is an avant garde barista who likes to deconstruct processes and enjoys doing things beyond the norm. I may not agree with his positions, but at least I can understand where he's coming from.
You offer nothing except negativism. What espresso machine do you use and why do you like it? What's your background in anything relating to coffee? Why should anyone believe what you say if you're hiding being a cloak of anonymity? As I said, you're lacking credibility in this discussion!
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You were calling me out on my consistency skills, I retorted, with facts. Here's your chance to impress your facts upon me with the factual account of the largest amount of consistent shots you've pulled in a day __________, in a week ____________, in a year __________? What's that, did I just hear crickets over there, is that silence? Silence on your consistency position? Call me out and you're gonna get a reply and that reply won't let you off the hook for the nonsense you've been scribbling out. I think the difference between us might be that I'll admit when I'm guessing, or when I just don't know.
snipped
Quantity is no indicator of quality. All I've seen of your work are a handful of latte art photos and a few videos of badly over-extracted shots. In your defense, I do believe you intentionally spoiled those shots to produce effects for the camera (artistic license?).
I pull shots that extract the flavors I want from the beans. I play with temp & pressure to do that. For instance, I'm currently working with a blend that I roasted to a light Vienna level, which I find produces a good balance of sugars and chocolate at 196°F. While there are variables in each shot that must be accounted for, I strive to make each tamp the same, removing it from the variables that must be controlled.
If you want to play with all the different factors, more power to you. But from everything I've read about the espresso making process, you're in the minority. But, like I've always told folks, "Don't let anyone tell you what you like in the cup."
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Tex - say what you will about me. You are just an unknown irritant to me so we're even. However - do you care about what your expert says about SBDU's?
Here is what your EXPERT Schulman advised somone asking about a SBDU (QM Alexia) just YESTERDAY QUOTED
http://www.home-barista.com/advice/oh-alexia-now-that-my-budget-is-blown-is-my-thinking-flawed-too-t14828.html (http://www.home-barista.com/advice/oh-alexia-now-that-my-budget-is-blown-is-my-thinking-flawed-too-t14828.html)
"You have a solid grinder in the Cunill, which puts you well ahead of the game.
As a beginner, you won't just be inconsistent, you'll also be prone to pay too much attention to specs, to make mountains out of molehills, and to lose perspective.
-- The contribution of PID control to shot quality is negligible when compared to the normal controls on commercial level machines (pressure stats or vapor bulbs). They are a big deal compared to the miserable bimetallic button stats on home machines, but once you get into the 1K and above range, they are merely convenience items.
-- Much more important is deciding on a large single boiler versus an entry level HX. Both make great espresso, but the HX will also steam fast, while the large single boilers take a lot of time to switch over. Nobody I know of has remained with one of these large single boilers for long, whether they drink only espresso or use the steam. Everybody buys an HX or double boiler within a year or two. Apparently waiting forever to steam even once a month eventually gets tired. My advice is to look into an NS Oscar, Bezzera, Expobar and any other entry level HX. Board members tend to talk up the large single boilers as "purist machines;" but being virtuous is cheap when it's just talk and the single boiler pink elephants is on someone else's counter. So think long and hard about how purist you'll want to be next year."
So - say what you will about me but your expert makes my point. I agree wth Schulman. Do you?
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You absolutely did not say just for you and furthermore you falsely claimed that Schulman agreed with you. I showed that claim was wrong as well.
In any event I'm glad that you now back down and say that the PID'ed SBDU is only best for you. Pink Elephants must look good on your kitchen counter. >:D
Inappropriate comment deleted. 8)
edited: I rate espresso machines by the quality of the coffee they make, not the statement they make about my net worth.
I'm glad we agree about your edit regarding coffee quality. That's why your over hyped claims were rebuked by most everyone including your expert Schulman.
Now why would you say everyone? Your use of hyperbole is an indicator of your doubts about your own beliefs, otherwise you'd stick to the point. EVERYONE? HA!
Edited: You have no once again.
Here is what your EXPERT Schulman advised somone asking about a SBDU (QM Alexia) just YESTERDAY QUOTED
[url]http://www.home-barista.com/advice/oh-alexia-now-that-my-budget-is-blown-is-my-thinking-flawed-too-t14828.html[/url] ([url]http://www.home-barista.com/advice/oh-alexia-now-that-my-budget-is-blown-is-my-thinking-flawed-too-t14828.html[/url])
"You have a solid grinder in the Cunill, which puts you well ahead of the game.
As a beginner, you won't just be inconsistent, you'll also be prone to pay too much attention to specs, to make mountains out of molehills, and to lose perspective.
-- The contribution of PID control to shot quality is negligible when compared to the normal controls on commercial level machines (pressure stats or vapor bulbs). They are a big deal compared to the miserable bimetallic button stats on home machines, but once you get into the 1K and above range, they are merely convenience items.
-- Much more important is deciding on a large single boiler versus an entry level HX. Both make great espresso, but the HX will also steam fast, while the large single boilers take a lot of time to switch over. Nobody I know of has remained with one of these large single boilers for long, whether they drink only espresso or use the steam. Everybody buys an HX or double boiler within a year or two. Apparently waiting forever to steam even once a month eventually gets tired. My advice is to look into an NS Oscar, Bezzera, Expobar and any other entry level HX. Board members tend to talk up the large single boilers as "purist machines;" but being virtuous is cheap when it's just talk and the single boiler pink elephants is on someone else's counter. So think long and hard about how purist you'll want to be next year."
So - say what you will about me but your expert makes my point. I agree wth Schulman. Do you?
So all you can do is quote others? C'mon, tell us about your own espresso-making experiences so we can gauge your credibility.
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You were calling me out on my consistency skills, I retorted, with facts. Here's your chance to impress your facts upon me with the factual account of the largest amount of consistent shots you've pulled in a day __________, in a week ____________, in a year __________? What's that, did I just hear crickets over there, is that silence? Silence on your consistency position? Call me out and you're gonna get a reply and that reply won't let you off the hook for the nonsense you've been scribbling out. I think the difference between us might be that I'll admit when I'm guessing, or when I just don't know.
snipped
Quantity is no indicator of quality. All I've seen of your work are a handful of latte art photos and a few videos of badly over-extracted shots. In your defense, I do believe you intentionally spoiled those shots to produce effects for the camera (artistic license?).
I pull shots that extract the flavors I want from the beans. I play with temp & pressure to do that. For instance, I'm currently working with a blend that I roasted to a light Vienna level, which I find produces a good balance of sugars and chocolate at 196°F. While there are variables in each shot that must be accounted for, I strive to make each tamp the same, removing it from the variables that must be controlled.
If you want to play with all the different factors, more power to you. But from everything I've read about the espresso making process, you're in the minority. But, like I've always told folks, "Don't let anyone tell you what you like in the cup."
There you go again, crafting sentences. You commented on consistency earlier, I stated I've pulled hundreds of shots back to back in a day in a demanding retail environment, each shot a duplicate of the shot previous to it (within reason). I'm not sure how much more you want to argue your nonsensical position on consistency. I've done it, loads of it. Consistency was my middle name. Then I questioned yours...
There you go again, crafting sentences to create something that is false or minimalizing by stating "All I've seen of your work are a handful of latte art photos". You've probably seen well over 100 of my latte art photos because you have participated in threads where they sit next to or very near your own comments. Maybe your hands have well over 50 fingers per hand... then I guess you would be getting closer to stating fact.
There you go again, manipulating comments as if they were fact. You haven't just seen 'a few videos of badly over-extracted shots', you've seen quite a few videos of mine which show correctly extracted shots, you will have also seen some great pours, mediocre pours, decent pours, you've seen pre-shot weights, post shot weights, crema results, you've seen milk steam, milk pours and lots of other stuff. That's just fact. But now I'll get on to your comment on my badly over-extracted shots... do you know what over-extracted means? Really? How about we get it out in the open so there's no misunderstanding other than your attempt to throw a boogieman term at my videos, how about this definition: "Over-extraction occurs when too many coffee solids are extracted, resulting in a strong, harsh flavor. The visual signs are a low-volume extraction having a dark, thin crema. A dark "halo" at the edge of the cup is another classic indictor of an over-extraction, or of brew water that is too hot." Care to point out 'a few videos of badly over-extracted shots' that I've put up that fall into that definition? I can wait for the crickets if you want. How about this definition: "Over Extracted: term used to describe coffee or espresso that has had brew water exposed to ground coffee for too long. Over extracted espresso and coffee can taste bitter or burnt." Care to point out 'a few videos of badly over-extracted shots' that I've put up that fall into that definition? I can wait for the crickets if you want. Sad.
Are you kidding, this is absurd... "In your defense, I do believe you intentionally spoiled those shots to produce effects for the camera (artistic license?)." Dude, I don't need your defense, what I need is for you to state fact not distort reality.
Wait a minute here... is this a retraction of your earlier statement where you pronounced to the world as fact that the only thing which should ever be changed is grind - nothing else gets changed but grind... "I pull shots that extract the flavors I want from the beans. I play with temp & pressure to do that. For instance, I'm currently working with a blend that I roasted to a light Vienna level, which I find produces a good balance of sugars and chocolate at 196°F. While there are variables in each shot that must be accounted for, I strive to make each tamp the same, removing it from the variables that must be controlled. " Now you are playing with temp and pressure, madness, want to throw in dose weight while you are at it, or some other variables other than just grind, but that would be silly, right?
What fact checking tool did you use to get this one put together "If you want to play with all the different factors, more power to you. But from everything I've read about the espresso making process, you're in the minority. " Which minority would that be, the minority that makes espresso by taking into account the espresso making process? And what exactly is your point when you say "If you want to play with all the different factors, more power to you." Have you a list of 'all the different factors' that I'm excessively employing that you don't? Or are we back to you just playing with grind and only grind and I'm doing wacky things like grind... and gasp... amount of grams of beans for a shot... or can you believe it he just... observed the flow in order to know when to kill a shot... etc, etc, etc... the espresso making process, etc.
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What do you think of Schulman's statement?
You are the one with no credibility.
Snake-oil salesmen or idiot - you make the call!
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I think Jim Schulman is obviously wrong; it's white elephant... :violent5:
I don't think Jim is referring to the Alexia as an inferior machine here, he is simply pointing out the strength of the call to teh dairy.
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ECC- The Alexia is a fine machine made by a great company. And that is part of the point. Schulman STILL calls them pink elephants that he claims anyone with the means will replace within a year or two. That’s a top of the line SBDU! This is the expert that Tex called into play with false claims about his recommendations. I simply showed that as of two days ago his expert has the same view of SBDU machines as I do! :o
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You were calling me out on my consistency skills, I retorted, with facts. Here's your chance to impress your facts upon me with the factual account of the largest amount of consistent shots you've pulled in a day __________, in a week ____________, in a year __________? What's that, did I just hear crickets over there, is that silence? Silence on your consistency position? Call me out and you're gonna get a reply and that reply won't let you off the hook for the nonsense you've been scribbling out. I think the difference between us might be that I'll admit when I'm guessing, or when I just don't know.
snipped
Quantity is no indicator of quality. All I've seen of your work are a handful of latte art photos and a few videos of badly over-extracted shots. In your defense, I do believe you intentionally spoiled those shots to produce effects for the camera (artistic license?).
I pull shots that extract the flavors I want from the beans. I play with temp & pressure to do that. For instance, I'm currently working with a blend that I roasted to a light Vienna level, which I find produces a good balance of sugars and chocolate at 196°F. While there are variables in each shot that must be accounted for, I strive to make each tamp the same, removing it from the variables that must be controlled.
If you want to play with all the different factors, more power to you. But from everything I've read about the espresso making process, you're in the minority. But, like I've always told folks, "Don't let anyone tell you what you like in the cup."
There you go again, crafting sentences. You commented on consistency earlier, I stated I've pulled hundreds of shots back to back in a day in a demanding retail environment, each shot a duplicate of the shot previous to it (within reason). I'm not sure how much more you want to argue your nonsensical position on consistency. I've done it, loads of it. Consistency was my middle name. Then I questioned yours...
There you go again, crafting sentences to create something that is false or minimalizing by stating "All I've seen of your work are a handful of latte art photos". You've probably seen well over 100 of my latte art photos because you have participated in threads where they sit next to or very near your own comments. Maybe your hands have well over 50 fingers per hand... then I guess you would be getting closer to stating fact.
There you go again, manipulating comments as if they were fact. You haven't just seen 'a few videos of badly over-extracted shots', you've seen quite a few videos of mine which show correctly extracted shots, you will have also seen some great pours, mediocre pours, decent pours, you've seen pre-shot weights, post shot weights, crema results, you've seen milk steam, milk pours and lots of other stuff. That's just fact. But now I'll get on to your comment on my badly over-extracted shots... do you know what over-extracted means? Really? How about we get it out in the open so there's no misunderstanding other than your attempt to throw a boogieman term at my videos, how about this definition: "Over-extraction occurs when too many coffee solids are extracted, resulting in a strong, harsh flavor. The visual signs are a low-volume extraction having a dark, thin crema. A dark "halo" at the edge of the cup is another classic indictor of an over-extraction, or of brew water that is too hot." Care to point out 'a few videos of badly over-extracted shots' that I've put up that fall into that definition? I can wait for the crickets if you want. How about this definition: "Over Extracted: term used to describe coffee or espresso that has had brew water exposed to ground coffee for too long. Over extracted espresso and coffee can taste bitter or burnt." Care to point out 'a few videos of badly over-extracted shots' that I've put up that fall into that definition? I can wait for the crickets if you want. Sad.
Are you kidding, this is absurd... "In your defense, I do believe you intentionally spoiled those shots to produce effects for the camera (artistic license?)." Dude, I don't need your defense, what I need is for you to state fact not distort reality.
Wait a minute here... is this a retraction of your earlier statement where you pronounced to the world as fact that the only thing which should ever be changed is grind - nothing else gets changed but grind... "I pull shots that extract the flavors I want from the beans. I play with temp & pressure to do that. For instance, I'm currently working with a blend that I roasted to a light Vienna level, which I find produces a good balance of sugars and chocolate at 196°F. While there are variables in each shot that must be accounted for, I strive to make each tamp the same, removing it from the variables that must be controlled. " Now you are playing with temp and pressure, madness, want to throw in dose weight while you are at it, or some other variables other than just grind, but that would be silly, right?
What fact checking tool did you use to get this one put together "If you want to play with all the different factors, more power to you. But from everything I've read about the espresso making process, you're in the minority. " Which minority would that be, the minority that makes espresso by taking into account the espresso making process? And what exactly is your point when you say "If you want to play with all the different factors, more power to you." Have you a list of 'all the different factors' that I'm excessively employing that you don't? Or are we back to you just playing with grind and only grind and I'm doing wacky things like grind... and gasp... amount of grams of beans for a shot... or can you believe it he just... observed the flow in order to know when to kill a shot... etc, etc, etc... the espresso making process, etc.
Geez guy, how about an executive summary next time?
What you're doing with those slooow shots may be interesting to look at, but it's not espresso. In fact, it's more akin to what is made with the steam toys than espresso as it's known throughout the world: You show no concern for proper pressure & extraction.
Espresso is a drink made within pressure, temperature, and time constraints. You're trying to redefine espresso to suit your interests, rather than learning to make it within the existing norms. You can call it whatever you want, but it ain't espresso unless you follow the rules.
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ECC- The Alexia is a fine machine made by a great company. And that is part of the point. Schulman STILL calls them pink elephants that he claims anyone with the means will replace within a year or two. That’s a top of the line SBDU! This is the expert that Tex called into play with false claims about his recommendations. I simply showed that as of two days ago his expert has the same view of SBDU machines as I do! :o
But the fact is, you have no credibility in this thread because all you're doing is refuting what I post. Where's your counter argument about what you use & why you prefer it?
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From the Schulman quote:
"Nobody I know of has remained with one of these large single boilers for long, whether they drink only espresso or use the steam. "
This honestly confuses me. I can understand the call to steam, but why would anyone upgrade if they drink only espresso?
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moved to its own thread
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Good try but no cigar. I did indeed give several arguments which you simply don't believe. No problem with that because you are wrong.
You are the one with no credibility. Your expert agrees with me. Do you believe Schulman's comments regarding SBDU machines that he made only TWO DAYS AGO? :o I'm not trying to sell anything here. That would be you. Most of my posts are comments on coffees I've experienced, blends I've tried or purchases of fine coffee. Most of your posts are nonsense argumentative garbage interspersed with trying to sell something. Anyone with a mind can see right through you.
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From the Schulman quote:
"Nobody I know of has remained with one of these large single boilers for long, whether they drink only espresso or use the steam. "
This honestly confuses me. I can understand the call to steam, but why would anyone upgrade if they drink only espresso?
Interesting point. If one isn't in need of steam to make milk drinks, where is the downside of a SBDU machine? Intra-shot temp stability isn't an issue, and with a large enough boiler, inter-shot temp stability won't be a concern either.
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From the Schulman quote:
"Nobody I know of has remained with one of these large single boilers for long, whether they drink only espresso or use the steam. "
This honestly confuses me. I can understand the call to steam, but why would anyone upgrade if they drink only espresso?
For the Alexia there may be no good reason. For smaller boiler SBDU units they simply don't have the thermal stability to compete. Tex can argue till he's blue in the face (or pink like an elephant in his case) but those are the facts.
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There you go again, crafting sentences. You commented on consistency earlier, I stated I've pulled hundreds of shots back to back in a day in a demanding retail environment, each shot a duplicate of the shot previous to it (within reason). I'm not sure how much more you want to argue your nonsensical position on consistency. I've done it, loads of it. Consistency was my middle name. Then I questioned yours...
There you go again, crafting sentences to create something that is false or minimalizing by stating "All I've seen of your work are a handful of latte art photos". You've probably seen well over 100 of my latte art photos because you have participated in threads where they sit next to or very near your own comments. Maybe your hands have well over 50 fingers per hand... then I guess you would be getting closer to stating fact.
There you go again, manipulating comments as if they were fact. You haven't just seen 'a few videos of badly over-extracted shots', you've seen quite a few videos of mine which show correctly extracted shots, you will have also seen some great pours, mediocre pours, decent pours, you've seen pre-shot weights, post shot weights, crema results, you've seen milk steam, milk pours and lots of other stuff. That's just fact. But now I'll get on to your comment on my badly over-extracted shots... do you know what over-extracted means? Really? How about we get it out in the open so there's no misunderstanding other than your attempt to throw a boogieman term at my videos, how about this definition: "Over-extraction occurs when too many coffee solids are extracted, resulting in a strong, harsh flavor. The visual signs are a low-volume extraction having a dark, thin crema. A dark "halo" at the edge of the cup is another classic indictor of an over-extraction, or of brew water that is too hot." Care to point out 'a few videos of badly over-extracted shots' that I've put up that fall into that definition? I can wait for the crickets if you want. How about this definition: "Over Extracted: term used to describe coffee or espresso that has had brew water exposed to ground coffee for too long. Over extracted espresso and coffee can taste bitter or burnt." Care to point out 'a few videos of badly over-extracted shots' that I've put up that fall into that definition? I can wait for the crickets if you want. Sad.
Are you kidding, this is absurd... "In your defense, I do believe you intentionally spoiled those shots to produce effects for the camera (artistic license?)." Dude, I don't need your defense, what I need is for you to state fact not distort reality.
Wait a minute here... is this a retraction of your earlier statement where you pronounced to the world as fact that the only thing which should ever be changed is grind - nothing else gets changed but grind... "I pull shots that extract the flavors I want from the beans. I play with temp & pressure to do that. For instance, I'm currently working with a blend that I roasted to a light Vienna level, which I find produces a good balance of sugars and chocolate at 196°F. While there are variables in each shot that must be accounted for, I strive to make each tamp the same, removing it from the variables that must be controlled. " Now you are playing with temp and pressure, madness, want to throw in dose weight while you are at it, or some other variables other than just grind, but that would be silly, right?
What fact checking tool did you use to get this one put together "If you want to play with all the different factors, more power to you. But from everything I've read about the espresso making process, you're in the minority. " Which minority would that be, the minority that makes espresso by taking into account the espresso making process? And what exactly is your point when you say "If you want to play with all the different factors, more power to you." Have you a list of 'all the different factors' that I'm excessively employing that you don't? Or are we back to you just playing with grind and only grind and I'm doing wacky things like grind... and gasp... amount of grams of beans for a shot... or can you believe it he just... observed the flow in order to know when to kill a shot... etc, etc, etc... the espresso making process, etc.
Geez guy, how about an executive summary next time?
What you're doing with those slooow shots may be interesting to look at, but it's not espresso. In fact, it's more akin to what is made with the steam toys than espresso as it's known throughout the world: You show no concern for proper pressure & extraction.
Espresso is a drink made within pressure, temperature, and time constraints. You're trying to redefine espresso to suit your interests, rather than learning to make it within the existing norms. You can call it whatever you want, but it ain't espresso unless you follow the rules.
Still ducking all the question I ask you previously, eh? Makes sense, because you've said some embarrassing stuff and tried to make it sound like facts.
Be sure to duck all this stuff I'm about to write as well, then after this post go on to make some other random comments and please try to make them sound like fact... yawn...
"What you're doing with those slooow shots may be interesting to look at, but it's not espresso." Let's get to it shall we, your comment about it not being espresso... really? And what is espresso? Don't answer right away because it's a pretty big question and one I'm not so sure you have fully contemplated, I state that because your sense of espresso seems extremely rigid and perhaps defined only by what you pull at home. For me, I pull all kinds of shots, across a very wide spectrum and have experienced the same things in several highly respected third-wave coffee shops. My definition of espresso is inclusive because I keep an open mind.
This is pretty poor, even for you... "In fact, it's more akin to what is made with the steam toys than espresso as it's known throughout the world: You show no concern for proper pressure & extraction." What proper pressure and extraction technique are you talking about? Do you mean the pressure variable of a lever machine which has a decaying pressure profile across the entire path of the lever pull allowing for realtime pressure profiling? Do you mean the pressure at the headspace between the tamped coffee and the lever coffee screen and the ability to adjust the extraction process via spacing? Or do you mean the pressure I'm putting on you as I try to extract facts because that's what interests me, not your predictable attempts at redirective argument as a way to bolster some of the nonsense you've spouted in this thread?
Crickets...
"Espresso is a drink made within pressure, temperature, and time constraints." And what exactly are those constraints, you can't be relying on the SCAA golden rules as the only thing espresso is allowed to be, right? If you are talking about the SCAA golden rules I suppose you could be on to something if we are talking about beginner espresso or unimaginative espresso, which camp do you fit in?
"You're trying to redefine espresso to suit your interests, rather than learning to make it within the existing norms." If I had have been drinking something when I read this it would have shot out of my nose. How do you pull shots? I pull shots that suit my interests and in so doing they also interest others. Step out of the tar pits, it's pretty interesting out here.
"You can call it whatever you want, but it ain't espresso unless you follow the rules." Your 'facts' range from absurd to humorous, I'm not sure where this one falls. Let me help you out with this... I think I follow your logic here I did call it espresso because I didn't think a rock, or a potato, or a marble, battery, or tree would be the right name for it. I called it espresso because I do take coffee beans, extract them using a technological device called an 'E s p r e s s o Machine'. Let me know what rules were broken somewhere in the preceding sentence. You can be sure if I use a pourover I won't call that espresso but in until them let me know why I should call what I'm doing something other than espresso.
Here's where you respond to my questions and logic...
Or you can state some new mumbo-jumbo.
Maybe use another boogeyman comment.
Or the strawman argument.
Distort some more reality.
State opinion as facts.
Take facts and distort them as opinion.
Complain about the length of time you had to read factual responses.
Complain.
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From the Schulman quote:
"Nobody I know of has remained with one of these large single boilers for long, whether they drink only espresso or use the steam. "
This honestly confuses me. I can understand the call to steam, but why would anyone upgrade if they drink only espresso?
For the Alexia there may be no good reason. For smaller boiler SBDU units they simply don't have the thermal stability to compete. Tex can argue till he's blue in the face (or pink like an elephant in his case) but those are the facts.
More BS from someone with no personal knowledge of what he's discussing. Or do you have a graph of the intra-shot temp stability of the Alexia? Me? I'll stick to known facts about temp stability, thank you.
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There you go again, crafting sentences. You commented on consistency earlier, I stated I've pulled hundreds of shots back to back in a day in a demanding retail environment, each shot a duplicate of the shot previous to it (within reason). I'm not sure how much more you want to argue your nonsensical position on consistency. I've done it, loads of it. Consistency was my middle name. Then I questioned yours...
There you go again, crafting sentences to create something that is false or minimalizing by stating "All I've seen of your work are a handful of latte art photos". You've probably seen well over 100 of my latte art photos because you have participated in threads where they sit next to or very near your own comments. Maybe your hands have well over 50 fingers per hand... then I guess you would be getting closer to stating fact.
There you go again, manipulating comments as if they were fact. You haven't just seen 'a few videos of badly over-extracted shots', you've seen quite a few videos of mine which show correctly extracted shots, you will have also seen some great pours, mediocre pours, decent pours, you've seen pre-shot weights, post shot weights, crema results, you've seen milk steam, milk pours and lots of other stuff. That's just fact. But now I'll get on to your comment on my badly over-extracted shots... do you know what over-extracted means? Really? How about we get it out in the open so there's no misunderstanding other than your attempt to throw a boogieman term at my videos, how about this definition: "Over-extraction occurs when too many coffee solids are extracted, resulting in a strong, harsh flavor. The visual signs are a low-volume extraction having a dark, thin crema. A dark "halo" at the edge of the cup is another classic indictor of an over-extraction, or of brew water that is too hot." Care to point out 'a few videos of badly over-extracted shots' that I've put up that fall into that definition? I can wait for the crickets if you want. How about this definition: "Over Extracted: term used to describe coffee or espresso that has had brew water exposed to ground coffee for too long. Over extracted espresso and coffee can taste bitter or burnt." Care to point out 'a few videos of badly over-extracted shots' that I've put up that fall into that definition? I can wait for the crickets if you want. Sad.
Are you kidding, this is absurd... "In your defense, I do believe you intentionally spoiled those shots to produce effects for the camera (artistic license?)." Dude, I don't need your defense, what I need is for you to state fact not distort reality.
Wait a minute here... is this a retraction of your earlier statement where you pronounced to the world as fact that the only thing which should ever be changed is grind - nothing else gets changed but grind... "I pull shots that extract the flavors I want from the beans. I play with temp & pressure to do that. For instance, I'm currently working with a blend that I roasted to a light Vienna level, which I find produces a good balance of sugars and chocolate at 196°F. While there are variables in each shot that must be accounted for, I strive to make each tamp the same, removing it from the variables that must be controlled. " Now you are playing with temp and pressure, madness, want to throw in dose weight while you are at it, or some other variables other than just grind, but that would be silly, right?
What fact checking tool did you use to get this one put together "If you want to play with all the different factors, more power to you. But from everything I've read about the espresso making process, you're in the minority. " Which minority would that be, the minority that makes espresso by taking into account the espresso making process? And what exactly is your point when you say "If you want to play with all the different factors, more power to you." Have you a list of 'all the different factors' that I'm excessively employing that you don't? Or are we back to you just playing with grind and only grind and I'm doing wacky things like grind... and gasp... amount of grams of beans for a shot... or can you believe it he just... observed the flow in order to know when to kill a shot... etc, etc, etc... the espresso making process, etc.
Geez guy, how about an executive summary next time?
What you're doing with those slooow shots may be interesting to look at, but it's not espresso. In fact, it's more akin to what is made with the steam toys than espresso as it's known throughout the world: You show no concern for proper pressure & extraction.
Espresso is a drink made within pressure, temperature, and time constraints. You're trying to redefine espresso to suit your interests, rather than learning to make it within the existing norms. You can call it whatever you want, but it ain't espresso unless you follow the rules.
Still ducking all the question I ask you previously, eh? Makes sense, because you've said some embarrassing stuff and tried to make it sound like facts.
Be sure to duck all this stuff I'm about to write as well, then after this post go on to make some other random comments and please try to make them sound like fact... yawn...
"What you're doing with those slooow shots may be interesting to look at, but it's not espresso." Let's get to it shall we, your comment about it not being espresso... really? And what is espresso? Don't answer right away because it's a pretty big question and one I'm not so sure you have fully contemplated, I state that because your sense of espresso seems extremely rigid and perhaps defined only by what you pull at home. For me, I pull all kinds of shots, across a very wide spectrum and have experienced the same things in several highly respected third-wave coffee shops. My definition of espresso is inclusive because I keep an open mind.
This is pretty poor, even for you... "In fact, it's more akin to what is made with the steam toys than espresso as it's known throughout the world: You show no concern for proper pressure & extraction." What proper pressure and extraction technique are you talking about? Do you mean the pressure variable of a lever machine which has a decaying pressure profile across the entire path of the lever pull allowing for realtime pressure profiling? Do you mean the pressure at the headspace between the tamped coffee and the lever coffee screen and the ability to adjust the extraction process via spacing? Or do you mean the pressure I'm putting on you as I try to extract facts because that's what interests me, not your predictable attempts at redirective argument as a way to bolster some of the nonsense you've spouted in this thread?
Crickets...
"Espresso is a drink made within pressure, temperature, and time constraints." And what exactly are those constraints, you can't be relying on the SCAA golden rules as the only thing espresso is allowed to be, right? If you are talking about the SCAA golden rules I suppose you could be on to something if we are talking about beginner espresso or unimaginative espresso, which camp do you fit in?
"You're trying to redefine espresso to suit your interests, rather than learning to make it within the existing norms." If I had have been drinking something when I read this it would have shot out of my nose. How do you pull shots? I pull shots that suit my interests and in so doing they also interest others. Step out of the tar pits, it's pretty interesting out here.
"You can call it whatever you want, but it ain't espresso unless you follow the rules." Your 'facts' range from absurd to humorous, I'm not sure where this one falls. Let me help you out with this... I think I follow your logic here I did call it espresso because I didn't think a rock, or a potato, or a marble, battery, or tree would be the right name for it. I called it espresso because I do take coffee beans, extract them using a technological device called an 'E s p r e s s o Machine'. Let me know what rules were broken somewhere in the preceding sentence. You can be sure if I use a pourover I won't call that espresso but in until them let me know why I should call what I'm doing something other than espresso.
Here's where you respond to my questions and logic...
Or you can state some new mumbo-jumbo.
Maybe use another boogeyman comment.
Or the strawman argument.
Distort some more reality.
State opinion as facts.
Take facts and distort them as opinion.
Complain about the length of time you had to read factual responses.
Complain.
More blather about your definition of espresso - maybe even a third-wave definition, but no thought given to what you're saying? Espresso, whether defined by the ITALIAN ESPRESSO NATIONAL INSTITUTE (http://homepage.mac.com/jrc/contrib/rancilio_silvia/inei.html), or just someone making this crap up (http://www.wholelattelove.com/articles/the_golden_rule.cfm), has norms to be observed if you wish to call what you make espresso. Otherwise anyone with an Aeropress or Bialetti can claim to be making espresso.
Flaunting the norms, while proclaiming oneself the expert, is hardly the sign of a rational mind. I personally find the Golden Rule too restrictive, but when I'm teaching someone to make espresso I do use it as a starting point on the espresso road. And when i diverge from this rule it is by small increments; taking into consideration that if I disdain these norms I'm likely to be called on it, because espresso is a rules derived process.
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From the Schulman quote:
"Nobody I know of has remained with one of these large single boilers for long, whether they drink only espresso or use the steam. "
This honestly confuses me. I can understand the call to steam, but why would anyone upgrade if they drink only espresso?
For the Alexia there may be no good reason. For smaller boiler SBDU units they simply don't have the thermal stability to compete. Tex can argue till he's blue in the face (or pink like an elephant in his case) but those are the facts.
More BS from someone with no personal knowledge of what he's discussing. Or do you have a graph of the intra-shot temp stability of the Alexia? Me? I'll stick to known facts about temp stability, thank you.
Oh, wait a minute, here's a graph of the Alexia's intra-shot temp stability.
(http://www.home-barista.com/userpix/jesawdy/AlexiaPIDheaterrelay_6shots.jpg)
Hmm... Not much difference to my eye.
(http://www.greencoffeebuyingclub.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=9507.0;attach=8269;image)
(http://www.greencoffeebuyingclub.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=9507.0;attach=8270;image)
Let's see, you can't argue against facts, so what's left for you? Maybe a bit more histrionics?
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Show me 5 in a row spaced at two minutes apart. If you can do that then I know you falsify your data.
You're gasping your last breath.
Do you believe your expert Schulman? Yes or NO? You brought him up with your false claims.
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Show me 5 in a row spaced at two minutes apart.
I didn't think you'd be stupid enough to ask a question to which you didn't already know the answer. BTW, these aren't my graphs - Jim Gallt, the top PID guru did for a Gaggia Coffee that he PID'd, using the same test methodology used here: http://pidkits.com/thermofilter.html (http://pidkits.com/thermofilter.html)
edited: In no way am I suggesting that Jim Gallt supports any of my positions. In fact, it's the other way around - I endorse his work without reservations.
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Your joking right?
That's poor reproducibility. Really poor. Also, I don't see time between shots even for that poor reproducibility for three not five.
You keep bringing up HB and some of their experts. Why don't you post those graphs and your claims over there and see if Galt, Schulman or any other of your experts agree with your argument that SBDU units are better then HX or oter DB alternatives for ANYONE. Please do that. You wil be laughed out of the forum.
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Ok Tex, I'll play your game and look at how you define espresso, it's not how I define it but it'll be fun to look at. This one from the ITALIAN ESPRESSO NATIONAL INSTITUTE (as defined by them in 1999):
"What is Espresso?
It is the best way to obtain from knowledgeably roasted coffee beans all the pleasure that they are able to give. More practically, espresso is the drink-in-a-cup obtained by forcing adequately pressurised water through coffee powder. Espresso coffee should not contain any additive or flavouring and should be free of any artificially added water."
When looking at your source definition let me know where I went wrong when I called what I do espresso. Let's see, I used a cup, I used pressurized water through coffee powder and I didn't put in any additive or flavoring, it was also free of any artificially added water. Alright then, one down and one to go.
Now let's look at what you use as another guiding beacon of espresso knowledge the link from Whole Latte Love which you endearingly titled "just someone making this crap up", you sure know how to pick 'em:
"DOUBLE SHOT: Equals 2 to 2.5 fluid ounces of water pulled through approximately 14 grams of ground coffee in about 20 to 25 seconds.
Start timing your “extraction†(the shot you are making) when you hit the brew button, and always tamp (pack the coffee into the portafilter basket) with about 30lbs. of pressure."
Interesting, no mention of killing a shot upon early blonding, just a simple little definition of weight and time. When was the last time you drank a 2.5oz straight espresso? Go out into the retail world, high-quality retail coffee shops that is, are there even such things as espresso cups that can hold 2.5oz of espresso? How about you watch 50 or 60 World Barista Championship videos, you know what those are right, the guys and girls who are in the industry and pull tens of thousand of shots per year with all kinds of coffee and collaborate with hundreds of other baristas and thousands upon thousands of their customers and all of them operate at a world caliber level, let me know when you see a 2.5oz shot pulled and served. You can start learning here: http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=obM&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial&tbs=vid%3A1&q=world+barista+championship+video&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai= (http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=obM&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial&tbs=vid%3A1&q=world+barista+championship+video&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=)
Why does the word 'third-wave' scare you so much? Do you fear change? Or are you uncomfortable in a world that has evolved around you? You can do something about it.
"Otherwise anyone with an Aeropress or Bialetti can claim to be making espresso." There you go with a distortion of facts again.
"Flaunting the norms, while proclaiming oneself the expert, is hardly the sign of a rational mind." What norms, yours? Who are you referring to that proclaimed them self to be ab expert?
"taking into consideration that if I disdain these norms I'm likely to be called on it, because espresso is a rules derived process." That's opinion not fact, espresso has guidelines but please feel free to show me the 'rulebook'. And dude, you are being called out on it, all day long...
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Does the OPV affect flavor? here is a thread from CG that seems to imply that Jim from 1st line doesn't think so.
I don't have to read that thread to answer.....yes it does.
Thanks for answering!
It's really obvious in several ways.
OK How is it different and how does it happen?
And are you buying that 2 group Lusso? ;)
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Your joking right?
That's poor reproducibility. Really poor.
You keep bringing up HB and some of their experts. Why don't you post those graphs and your claims over there and see if Galt, Schulman or any other of your exoerts agree with your argument that SBDU units are better then HX or oter DB alternatives for ANYONE. Please do that.
I'd never question the integrity of Jim's work: but in this instance I'm simply putting it out there for all to study and draw their own conclusions. As for the graphs being posted, to the best of my knowledge, Jim's work has been posted in every legitimate coffee forum I'm aware of, and have always been accepted at face value wwith no suggestion of the results being doctored.
Do you have anything but anecdotal evidence to counter these graphs?
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Ok Tex, I'll play your game and look at how you define espresso, it's not how I define it but it'll be fun to look at. This one from the ITALIAN ESPRESSO NATIONAL INSTITUTE (as defined by them in 1999):
"What is Espresso?
It is the best way to obtain from knowledgeably roasted coffee beans all the pleasure that they are able to give. More practically, espresso is the drink-in-a-cup obtained by forcing adequately pressurised water through coffee powder. Espresso coffee should not contain any additive or flavouring and should be free of any artificially added water."
When looking at your source definition let me know where I went wrong when I called what I do espresso. Let's see, I used a cup, I used pressurized water through coffee powder and I didn't put in any additive or flavoring, it was also free of any artificially added water. Alright then, one down and one to go.
Now let's look at what you use as another guiding beacon of espresso knowledge the link from Whole Latte Love which you endearingly titled "just someone making this crap up", you sure know how to pick 'em:
"DOUBLE SHOT: Equals 2 to 2.5 fluid ounces of water pulled through approximately 14 grams of ground coffee in about 20 to 25 seconds.
Start timing your “extraction†(the shot you are making) when you hit the brew button, and always tamp (pack the coffee into the portafilter basket) with about 30lbs. of pressure."
Interesting, no mention of killing a shot upon early blonding, just a simple little definition of weight and time. When was the last time you drank a 2.5oz straight espresso? Go out into the retail world, high-quality retail coffee shops that is, are there even such things as espresso cups that can hold 2.5oz of espresso? How about you watch 50 or 60 World Barista Championship videos, you know what those are right, the guys and girls who are in the industry and pull tens of thousand of shots per year with all kinds of coffee and collaborate with hundreds of other baristas and thousands upon thousands of their customers and all of them operate at a world caliber level, let me know when you see a 2.5oz shot pulled and served. You can start learning here: [url]http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=obM&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial&tbs=vid%3A1&q=world+barista+championship+video&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=[/url] ([url]http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=obM&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial&tbs=vid%3A1&q=world+barista+championship+video&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=[/url])
Why does the word 'third-wave' scare you so much? Do you fear change? Or are you uncomfortable in a world that has evolved around you? You can do something about it.
"Otherwise anyone with an Aeropress or Bialetti can claim to be making espresso." There you go with a distortion of facts again.
"Flaunting the norms, while proclaiming oneself the expert, is hardly the sign of a rational mind." What norms, yours? Who are you referring to that proclaimed them self to be ab expert?
"taking into consideration that if I disdain these norms I'm likely to be called on it, because espresso is a rules derived process." That's opinion not fact, espresso has guidelines but please feel free to show me the 'rulebook'. And dude, you are being called out on it, all day long...
Hey dude, try to summarize what you have to say - please. These threads get ridiculously long if we're to quote entire pages of text.
OK, we all play by Shaun's rules from now on, because he's a superior barista and knows more than anyone else in the industry. There, does that satisfy your sensitive ego? You be the expert who'll define what espresso is and isn't.
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Does the OPV affect flavor? here is a thread from CG that seems to imply that Jim from 1st line doesn't think so.
I don't have to read that thread to answer.....yes it does.
Thanks for answering!
It's really obvious in several ways.
OK How is it different and how does it happen?
And are you buying that 2 group Lusso? ;)
In the studies of Ernesto Illy, and others, it was determined that espresso is best made within a certain temperature range, using a machine capable of 9 bar pressure. http://nanotech.sc.mahidol.ac.th/i-sense/doc/Complexity_of_Coffee.pdf (http://nanotech.sc.mahidol.ac.th/i-sense/doc/Complexity_of_Coffee.pdf)
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Do you really have minimal reading skills too? You did not answer my question.
Also – start that thread on HB on your own with your claims about SBDU machines. Please. I would love to see the responses. It will make my week.
Are you even allowed to post there?
Sean - this guy apparently has no clue how good espreso is pulled or tastes. Have you seen any posts of his actually talking about taste?
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Do you really have minimal reading skills too? You did not answer my question.
Also – start that thread on HB on your own with your claims about SBDU machines. Please. I would love to see the responses. It will make my week.
Are you even allowed to post there?
Sean - this guy apparently has no clue how good espreso is pulled or tastes. Have you seen any posts of his actually talking about taste?
If you've nothing to add to this thread but acrimonious BS, why bother? You ask for facts and then declare the neutral 3rd-party proofs offered to be fraudulent?
C'mon dude, show some self-respect and shut up already! Or, better yet - tell us about your espresso equipment and what you like about it. You do actually own an espreso machine, don't you?
:laughing1: :laughing6: :laughing3: :laughing4: :laughing5:
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Do you believe YOUR EXPERT SCHULMAN and his thoughts on pink elephants aka SBDU machines?
Yes I own espresso equipment and I'll guarantee my drinks put yours to shame.
Do you ever post about coffee?
Put your ideas over on HB. Nah - you won't.
You are a joke.
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Do you believe YOUR EXPERT SCHULMAN and his thoughts on pink elephants aka SBDU machines?
Yes I own espresso equipment and I'll guarantee my drinks put yours to shame.
Do you ever post about coffee?
Until your attempt to hijack this thread, it was about coffee and how to make it. You've taken great pains to turn it into an argument about my veracity - without once offering your bona fides for examination. Thus, your complete lack of credibility!
8)
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Hey dude, try to summarize what you have to say - please. These threads get ridiculously long if we're to quote entire pages of text.
OK, we all play by Shaun's rules from now on, because he's a superior barista and knows more than anyone else in the industry. There, does that satisfy your sensitive ego? You be the expert who'll define what espresso is and isn't.
It's hard to summarize and simultaneously present facts. I leave the short snippy incorrect one liners to you.
"OK, we all play by Shaun's rules from now on, because he's a superior barista and knows more than anyone else in the industry." Nice strawman attempt.
"There, does that satisfy your sensitive ego?" Good attempt at another strawman.
"You be the expert who'll define what espresso is and isn't." Three strawman attemps in one paragraph, doesn't it get old?
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Hey dude, try to summarize what you have to say - please. These threads get ridiculously long if we're to quote entire pages of text.
OK, we all play by Shaun's rules from now on, because he's a superior barista and knows more than anyone else in the industry. There, does that satisfy your sensitive ego? You be the expert who'll define what espresso is and isn't.
It's hard to summarize and simultaneously present facts. I leave the short snippy incorrect one liners to you.
"OK, we all play by Shaun's rules from now on, because he's a superior barista and knows more than anyone else in the industry." Nice strawman attempt.
"There, does that satisfy your sensitive ego?" Good attempt at another strawman.
"You be the expert who'll define what espresso is and isn't." Three strawman attemps in one paragraph, doesn't it get old?
Not really, especially since all I get in response is more ego trips from you. 8)
If you don't believe in minimum standards for espresso why bother calling what you produce espresso? Calling Shaun shots espresso must seem demeaning to you?
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Do you believe YOUR EXPERT SCHULMAN and his thoughts on pink elephants aka SBDU machines?
Yes I own espresso equipment and I'll guarantee my drinks put yours to shame.
Do you ever post about coffee?
Until your attempt to hijack this thread, it was about coffee and how to make it. You've taken great pains to turn it into an argument about my veracity - without once offering your bona fides for examination. Thus, your complete lack of credibility!
8)
You've been exposed Tex. Is there anyone on this entire board who has or will come to agree with your argument?
I've seen no one.
Your credibility is nill.
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thanks for the link.
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Do you believe YOUR EXPERT SCHULMAN and his thoughts on pink elephants aka SBDU machines?
Yes I own espresso equipment and I'll guarantee my drinks put yours to shame.
Do you ever post about coffee?
Until your attempt to hijack this thread, it was about coffee and how to make it. You've taken great pains to turn it into an argument about my veracity - without once offering your bona fides for examination. Thus, your complete lack of credibility!
8)
You've been exposed Tex. Is there anyone on this entire board who has or will come to agree with your argument?
I've seen no one.
Your credibility is nill.
Until now I've asked my friends to stay out of our spats alan. I didn't see any point in them joining in until you actually contributed something about coffee or the process of making it. That is on your agenda at some point, right?
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thanks for the link.
It's an old article, but until BW writes an easy to read article with up to date references, it'll have to do.
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Do you believe YOUR EXPERT SCHULMAN and his thoughts on pink elephants aka SBDU machines?
Yes I own espresso equipment and I'll guarantee my drinks put yours to shame.
Do you ever post about coffee?
Until your attempt to hijack this thread, it was about coffee and how to make it. You've taken great pains to turn it into an argument about my veracity - without once offering your bona fides for examination. Thus, your complete lack of credibility!
8)
You've been exposed Tex. Is there anyone on this entire board who has or will come to agree with your argument?
I've seen no one.
Your credibility is nill.
Until now I've asked my friends to stay out of our spats alan. I didn't see any point in them joining in until you actually contributed something about coffee or the process of making it. That is on your agenda at some point, right?
What a joke. Your “friends†need permission to state their opinion?
Did you falsely state that Jim Schulman agreed with your views on SBDU espresso machines? When I showed the group his true views posted just two days ago all you could do in response was to post a smilie face. How do you respond to your experts post? Why did you lie about his views?
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Soooo.... uuuuhhh.....
Was I right that the main reason to go from the SBDU with PID machine to the next cost level - an entry level heat exchanger machine is improved steam? If few stay at that level, then it would seem not.
Are there other quality indicators also introduced at that level?
What (besides steam) makes an Oscar, Bezzera BZ02 and other entry level HX machines worth the additional money?
Look! I'm the one staying on topic!
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Not really, especially since all I get in response is more ego trips from you. 8)
If you don't believe in minimum standards for espresso why bother calling what you produce espresso? Calling Shaun shots espresso must seem demeaning to you?
You don't get any better at this.
Look back and find where I stated I don't believe in minimum standards. Go on, find that statement. I'll wait here patiently tapping my foot.
Ohhhhhh, hang on, wait a minute, noooooowwwww I get it... I don't know how I've never noticed this before. What you are really trying to do is make it appear that I don't believe in minimum standards for espresso, when in fact I never stated such a thing, but in so doing you might make the reader believe that I did say something as silly as what you are posing as fact. Wow, it's kind of like a misrepresentation of my position in order for you to gain favor from an audience or deflect the spotlight away your own ignorance - hey isn't that's a new tactic for you? And so to continue with a logical extension of that, if someone was going to apply that kind of cheap, transparent and sad effort, wouldn't it be nice if it was given a name, maybe something like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man)
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Soooo.... uuuuhhh.....
Was I right that the main reason to go from the SBDU with PID machine to the next cost level - an entry level heat exchanger machine is improved steam? If few stay at that level, then it would seem not.
Are there other quality indicators also introduced at that level?
What (besides steam) makes an Oscar, Bezzera BZ02 and other entry level HX machines worth the additional money?
Look! I'm the one staying on topic!
Here are a couple of reasons.
You will never be able to have company and produce shots back to back to back to back that you would want to serve to guests.
They are finicky especially with no preinfusion. Your success rate will be lower. Sylvia is notorious for its testy behavior.
Very few people make only straight espresso.
HX machines, especially those E61 machines that can take a grouphead thermometer, are workhorses that make great drinks and can satisfy reasonable sized groups.
Double boilers with larger brew boilers then Sylvia or Gaggia are a no brainer. Saying a Gaggia is more appropriate then a La Spaz V2 (as Tex did in this thread) is simply lunacy.
No need to believe me though.
Did you read Jim Schulman’s answer to a prospective Quickmill Alexia buyer? The Alexia is top of the line SBDU. I have not seen anyone question his credibility. He's Tex's EXPERT.
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Soooo.... uuuuhhh.....
Was I right that the main reason to go from the SBDU with PID machine to the next cost level - an entry level heat exchanger machine is improved steam? If few stay at that level, then it would seem not.
Are there other quality indicators also introduced at that level?
What (besides steam) makes an Oscar, Bezzera BZ02 and other entry level HX machines worth the additional money?
Look! I'm the one staying on topic!
I own HX machines (3 at last count - one of which I'm rebuilding) and I honestly don't know why HX machines are considered a step up from a PID'd SBDU machine. They do offer strong steam capability, and if you're making milk based drinks for a party they are hard to beat.
But if you're just making caps & lattes for one or two people a good SBDU machine is just as good. I offer these videos as proof;
2008-03-18: Gaggia Baby steaming 1 quart of water (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5VxU5FNCIc#) 2008-07-27: Gaggia Carezza as a steam machine (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFsWafUUINs#)
It takes ~39 seconds to go from brew temp to 300°F steam temp and the steam can be used for 4+ minutes without having to refill the boiler with water. That's more than enough time to create great microfoam. For the few times I actually have milk with my coffee I spend the waiting time getting the milk from the refrigerator and filling the container. Some see the shot sitting on the drainer as it getting cold, but that's not been my experience as long as I use a hot cup to pull the shot into.
edited: I forgot to mention that HX machines are built for commercial environments, where they're kept in constant use. If used at home where they'll set idle most of the time, they are a pain in the ass. This is because the heat exchanger is just a tube through the boiler that is heated by super-hot water in the boiler (~255°F). As long as the machine is in constant use the water passing through the HX is at a consistent temperature. But if the machine is idle, the water in the HX will stabilize at the boiler temp - far too hot to make espresso with. With some machines the group will also overheat. This is because some groups use the passive heating of a thermosyphon action. This is water passed from the HX to the group via tubes.
To counter this unstable condition requires a cooling flush to cool the HX & group. This is imprecise, but with experience on can hit the brew temp to withing one degree consistently. So, although the need for a cooling flush is a PITA, it can be ddone effectively.
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What the heck is a SBDU?
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Well if you've read this whole thread you deserve an answer!
Single Boiler Dual Use (brew and steam).
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Sheesh, when did they stop just being called Single Boiler????
Don't all single boiler machines do that?????
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Read the whole thing??????
Do you think I'm crazy?????
Nah....the arguing makes me want to throw up.
Get a Gaggia Classic.
Add a PID and a Silvia steam wand.
Don't offer espressos or lattes to your guests.
You'll be very happy.
Stop fretting.
Just buy one.
Susan
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Read the whole thing??????
Do you think I'm crazy?????
UUUUuuuHHhh...
Nah....the arguing makes me want to throw up.
A healthy reaction.
Get a Gaggia Classic.
Add a PID and a Silvia steam wand.
Don't offer espressos or lattes to your guests.
You'll be very happy.
Stop fretting.
Just buy one.
Susan
I am not fretting. I want to understand.
I may just skip all the in between steps and get a lever.
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Read the whole thing??????
Do you think I'm crazy?????
Nah....the arguing makes me want to throw up.
You know Robert about as good as anyone here, Susan. Can't you talk to him, and get him to admit to his faulty reasoning? Maybe we can Mankin to help out.
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You know Robert about as good as anyone here, Susan. Can't you talk to him, and get him to admit to his faulty reasoning? Maybe we can Mankin to help out.
But why, might I ask, do you care what he thinks if you think he's wrong?????
Susan
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I am not fretting. I want to understand.
I may just skip all the in between steps and get a lever.
Yeah, I know you're not fretting; everyone else is fretting around you.
I've had both a SAMA and a LaPeppina lever, but....I still prefer the semi-auto route.
A purist I am not....
Anyway, I dropped into this conversation only briefly and I've had my say and now I'm leaving because I'm sure the boys will go back to throwing things at each other any minute....
Susan
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You know Robert about as good as anyone here, Susan. Can't you talk to him, and get him to admit to his faulty reasoning? Maybe we can Mankin to help out.
But why, might I ask, do you care what he thinks if you think he's wrong?????
Susan
It's not good for the Club, that's why.
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It's not good for the Club, that's why.
I have to assume that that is a joke that I don't get....
Susan
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One of the reasons I like boilers is that they don't use anywhere near the same amount of water/power as an HX. Not a big deal for most, but my water is high scale, and I'm in a hard to plumb, hard to drain, not much space, not much available power home office situation. And I don't think keeping a high load device on 24x7 is a great idea either.
Who knows if steam/milk deserves the priority it gets, but I know I am just another newbie home dude out of the mainstream, thinking milk just hides many of the nuances I am spending so much time/effort searching for in espresso. I would like to try and understand why in a few months I will be compelled to abandon my trusty factory built Alexia and lust after home made, db, hx, commercial appliances, and multiple group heads.
In the meantime, this looks handy, who's afraid of mediocre milk?
http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/home/espressoaccs/quickmillmilksteamer (http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/home/espressoaccs/quickmillmilksteamer)
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Who knows if steam/milk deserves the priority it gets, but I know I am just another newbie home dude out of the mainstream, thinking milk just hides many of the nuances I am spending so much time/effort searching for in espresso. I would like to try and understand why in a few months I will be compelled to abandon my trusty factory built Alexia and lust after home made, db, hx, commercial appliances, and multiple group heads.
In the meantime, this looks handy, who's afraid of mediocre milk?
[url]http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/home/espressoaccs/quickmillmilksteamer[/url] ([url]http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/home/espressoaccs/quickmillmilksteamer[/url])
Steaming milk deserves zero priority if you only drink straight shots, or you are allergic to milk, or you never have a guest/friend/family member around who enjoys milk (basically you can see into the future and predict you will never entertain). If you fall into all of those categories you don't need a steam wand.
I would suggest you don't make the decision to saw off your steam wand because you think it 'ruins' the espresso. If you want nuances in espresso then you should drink straight shots and also drink espresso with milk. Huh, why both? Being able to produce excellent small milk doesn't hide the nuances in espresso it brings some of them out, things that you don't get in straight espresso. At least that's why I drink espresso straight and why I drink it in small milk, between the two of them I cover a lot of ground. But, the caveat is that not all milk is created equal, excellent milk has an enhanced ability to transport espresso versus milk that has only been heated up and if you are pouring excellent espresso and excellent milk... well, you get the idea.
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Choices choices ... in the end everyone ends up getting what they like.
I started with a Gaggia Carezza, then got an Auberins PID poor excuse for an espresso machine, and then went HX. There is for sure some truth in the saying buy your last machine first and stop squirting around.
I have had the HX for over two years now and have to say I am still loving it.
:)
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OK How is it different and how does it happen?
Well....I just worked 15 hours.
Looking over the last few pages of this thread I think I picked a great day for that. ;D
There are several things I saw worth commenting on but for now I'll stick with Py's question.
A lot of what you will notice right away if you drop brew pressure to ~9 bar from something static set higher is visual. You can clearly see a richness/depth/gooieness to the shots that is not there at higher pressures. The taste is a lot harder to explain and difficult to quantify but it's good enough here just to say there is a difference you will taste it.
Only by having the ability to adjust brew pressures can you uhm.... adjust brew temperatures. ;D
It's in doing it that you can chase after things and "pick your spots".
That is if you are into that sort of thing and not strict allegiance to textbook golden rule and everything that Illy, Shulman, and (pick a favored figurehead) etched into stone tablets on mount coffee. :-\
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Sheesh, when did they stop just being called Single Boiler????
Don't all single boiler machines do that?????
Can your LaPeppina steam? Can you pull hot water from an Oscar or La Pavoni lever? This is an Orwellian nightmare, where not all pigs are as equal as others.
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One of the reasons I like boilers is that they don't use anywhere near the same amount of water/power as an HX. Not a big deal for most, but my water is high scale, and I'm in a hard to plumb, hard to drain, not much space, not much available power home office situation. And I don't think keeping a high load device on 24x7 is a great idea either.
Who knows if steam/milk deserves the priority it gets, but I know I am just another newbie home dude out of the mainstream, thinking milk just hides many of the nuances I am spending so much time/effort searching for in espresso. I would like to try and understand why in a few months I will be compelled to abandon my trusty factory built Alexia and lust after home made, db, hx, commercial appliances, and multiple group heads.
In the meantime, this looks handy, who's afraid of mediocre milk?
[url]http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/home/espressoaccs/quickmillmilksteamer[/url] ([url]http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/home/espressoaccs/quickmillmilksteamer[/url])
Actually, the Gaggia pulls 1500 watts - the same as my 1-group HX. Of course it's only heating 3.5 ounces, not a gallon and a half; but when it's on the thing is sucking some juice!
Upgradeitus has very little to do with reason, or we'd all be getting along just fine with sub-$500 machines. It's penis envy carried over to man-toys; if you value your manhood you'll get the urge for bigger and better toys.
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You know Robert about as good as anyone here, Susan. Can't you talk to him, and get him to admit to his faulty reasoning? Maybe we can Mankin to help out.
But why, might I ask, do you care what he thinks if you think he's wrong?????
Susan
It's not good for the Club, that's why.
OK, tell you what peter - I'm going to assume that you're joking and pulling my leg through your appeal to my friends? Cause otherwise I'd have to assume that you really believe that my beliefs are wrong? ???
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Sheesh, when did they stop just being called Single Boiler????
Don't all single boiler machines do that?????
Can your LaPeppina steam? Can you pull hot water from an Oscar or La Pavoni lever? This is an Orwellian nightmare, where not all pigs are as equal as others.
I do not know about an Oscar or La Pavoni, but you can pull a shot and steam milk at the same time on any spring loaded lever with a steam wand.
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Just to show where I come from. So far other than the Cafe Caramel raspberry Mocha Latte I haven't found much in the way of espresso to recommend it. Early on, I had a Silvia, but very little idea of what I was wanting to get or how to get there. I had little experience with well made espresso. Needless to say, I became frustrated and sold the machine and bought a super auto. It can make decent drinks, but teaches me very little about the process.
At the SCAA, I entered a drawing and won a Krups thermoblock machine. It was relegated to the cabin. Only recently, have I begun to experiment with it and a Saeco Titan grinder. Getting some surprisingly better results than I ever did with Silvia. Drinking an Americano that is probably about on par with Starbucks.
So, as my wife says, maybe It'd be better if I learned the machines I have than got better machines.
I am sorely tempted by the La Peppina. I would be interested if anyone had one to sell.
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At the SCAA, I entered a drawing and won a Krups thermoblock machine. It was relegated to the cabin. Only recently, have I begun to experiment with it and a Saeco Titan grinder. Getting some surprisingly better results than I ever did with Silvia. Drinking an Americano that is probably about on par with Starbucks.
So, as my wife says, maybe It'd be better if I learned the machines I have than got better machines. . .
Dave, what is it that you feel you have yet to learn about your super-auto or the Krups? From all the research from which you have pulled, I would think you are beyond either unit.
B|Java
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You know Robert about as good as anyone here, Susan. Can't you talk to him, and get him to admit to his faulty reasoning? Maybe we can Mankin to help out.
But why, might I ask, do you care what he thinks if you think he's wrong?????
Susan
It's not good for the Club, that's why.
I would agree with this statement and apologize for my part. However, I initiated a response here early in the thread that was my honest opinion and I was viciously attacked. I will not stand for that and exposed him for his mistakes with his own experts words. I am exceedingly happy to be able to buy world class coffee beans through the club and discuss their merits when I have something to add. Maybe I just should stick to that. Moderators can decide if behavior allowing attacks like Tex enjoys initiating will be tolerated.
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You know Robert about as good as anyone here, Susan. Can't you talk to him, and get him to admit to his faulty reasoning? Maybe we can Mankin to help out.
But why, might I ask, do you care what he thinks if you think he's wrong?????
Susan
It's not good for the Club, that's why.
OK, tell you what peter - I'm going to assume that you're joking and pulling my leg through your appeal to my friends? Cause otherwise I'd have to assume that you really believe that my beliefs are wrong? ???
Maybe, if when you said that SBDU machines are considered by many experts to be the best machine for home use, and state it as fact rather than your opinion, and then revert to slandering someone who disagrees with you, my humble opinion is that this behavior is bad for the Club. You'll notice there was no winking smilie in my first post, nor is there one here.
Maybe, if you'll take your own bias out of the mix, and not say those who want a different (read more expensive) machine than yours, and not think that's the equivalent of penis envy, my humble opinion wouldn't be that your manner of debating is bad for the Club.
The summary, since you don't like Shaun's long posts; you made a statement as fact, got called out and said CG7's a jerk; you cite links to some 'experts' that don't even support your claim, CG7 points that out; now he has no credibility and your allegations against him get more heated. It goes on and on. If you had simply said, "Gee, I realize I posted something that was my opinion, but I stated it as fact," and done so a few pages before you did, none of this would have happened.
But that's just the Harmon way of doing things. The rest of us may as well get used to it, 'cuz it happens over and over and over again.
That part about 'it' being bad for the Club, has two parts; 1) if anyone, yes anyone, spouts something not entirely accurate, and other members swallow it... that's bad. 2) if someone else says they don't think it's entirely accurate, and it turns into 8 pages of 'you don't know what you're talking about, you so and so'... that's bad too.
From someone who has no credibility, because I've only been pulling shots for 3 months...
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Peter
Thank you for that reply. For my part I will refrain from posting where I am aware that "loose cannons" lurk.
Now back to monitoring a roast of some wonderful Colombia Planadas ;D 8)
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I remember another thread that was a lot like this one.
Only that one was worse. Tex was advocating things like distribution was irrelevant and other cornball ideas.
I know that Staylor was in that one and so was I, both of us doing what he and a others are doing now, It also went a ton of pages. What I learned from there and subsequent threads like this is a few things:
Tex admittedly will post incorrect information for his personal entertainment. (fact)
He does not see that as a credibility issue because he will ultimately, if backed into a corner say it's only his opinion anyway and probably resort to telling you that you will argue about brass balls on billy goats. (fact).
He admittedly will post with the intent of disruption and in the case of alt. his goal was to destroy it. (fact).
I say (fact) because there is example after example of this in many threads, it's not just my opinion.
But the causal reader does not know that.
Also they may not know that on his website he does agree that distribution matters (last time I looked anyway). So what you see here or other places may or may not be what he really thinks....it may or may not be a ruse. You just don't know. What makes this very interesting is that he has a decent sized group of fans that are very happy with what has has done to educate total newbies to get them to a point of making entry level acceptable coffee. So when they read a thread like this they must suffer some confusion but I digress...
The dude is a bit off. Simple as that (IMO) ;) He has amassed a very large block of very useful information that has probably helped hundreds of people pull their first non garbage shots. He has developed what has to be the largest volume of data on gaggia machines anywhere including Gaggia...yet on any given day he might post that you can make decent espresso with 30 day old beans or so other such wackiness and before you know it there is an 8 page mega goofy thread.
I don't know if it's just for fun, if he is trying to accomplish something , or what the deal is but as has been said a few times now it happens over and over.....
I still haven't figured it out from the first one of these from what might have been a couple years ago. :-X
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I am sorely tempted by the La Peppina. I would be interested if anyone had one to sell.
You mentioned somewhere back about "skipping ahead" to the lever.
I'm not sure it's a good idea. Not sure it could be bad either but from what you say you have never had good results via pump machines and if you don't take any time to go explore that and figure out what's up I don't know that you will be in the right place to use the lever as the next frontier. It will be your starting point.
I find it hard to find the words to say why that might not be the best idea because it's a fine idea....you are just missing a giant chunk of travel if you do that but your destination is still a good one. Does that make any sense?
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I am sorely tempted by the La Peppina. I would be interested if anyone had one to sell.
The La Peppina is a beauty, and I had to have one as soon as I saw one.
Her one drawback was that she scared me.
The water is being held in a tank which is very susceptible to being pulled right over.
There isn't adequate weight in the base of the machine to make it quite as stable as you might like.
That says nothing whatsoever about the quality of the shots, but it was something I had no considered before I had to have mine.
When I had the opportunity I traded her.
Susan
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I remember another thread that was a lot like this one.
Only that one was worse. Tex was advocating things like distribution was irrelevant and other cornball ideas.
I know that Staylor was in that one and so was I, both of us doing what he and a others are doing now, It also went a ton of pages. What I learned from there and subsequent threads like this is a few things:
Tex admittedly will post incorrect information for his personal entertainment. (fact)
He does not see that as a credibility issue because he will ultimately, if backed into a corner say it's only his opinion anyway and probably resort to telling you that you will argue about brass balls on billy goats. (fact).
He admittedly will post with the intent of disruption and in the case of alt. his goal was to destroy it. (fact).
I say (fact) because there is example after example of this in many threads, it's not just my opinion.
But the causal reader does not know that.
Also they may not know that on his website he does agree that distribution matters (last time I looked anyway). So what you see here or other places may or may not be what he really thinks....it may or may not be a ruse. You just don't know. What makes this very interesting is that he has a decent sized group of fans that are very happy with what has has done to educate total newbies to get them to a point of making entry level acceptable coffee. So when they read a thread like this they must suffer some confusion but I digress...
The dude is a bit off. Simple as that (IMO) ;) He has amassed a very large block of very useful information that has probably helped hundreds of people pull their first non garbage shots. He has developed what has to be the largest volume of data on gaggia machines anywhere including Gaggia...yet on any given day he might post that you can make decent espresso with 30 day old beans or so other such wackiness and before you know it there is an 8 page mega goofy thread.
I don't know if it's just for fun, if he is trying to accomplish something , or what the deal is but as has been said a few times now it happens over and over.....
I still haven't figured it out from the first one of these from what might have been a couple years ago. :-X
The only part of this that gets my knickers in a knot is the suggestion that Tex's tutelage would have only led me to make "entry level acceptable coffee". That kinda irks me; perhaps you'd still think so if you came and drank my espresso, but....how do you know?
For the rest of it, it seems to me that you have egged him on and encouraged him in this very behavior you are now griping about. The last time I dropped out of the club was when Tex started taking swings at me and multiple members (with one outstanding exception, thank you Milo) jumped on board. You haven't ever asked him to behave and now everyone is getting snarky and jumping on him but I see no inconsistency in his behavior from the getgo. Get a grip. Tex is Tex. Take him or leave him, but don't encourage his bad behavior and then criticize him for it.
Susan
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The only part of this that gets my knickers in a knot is the suggestion that Tex's tutelage would have only led me to make "entry level acceptable coffee". That kinda irks me;
I don't think it should.
Isn't he himself on the record as saying that's his goal/aim/claim?
One thing you are certainly correct about is that I've not had your coffee and can't say anything about it. However my guess is that you have surpassed the level of instruction you started with and that is what has taken you further.
Tex has said repeatedly his deal is about controlling the basic necessities and in 10 min he can have a newbie pulling acceptable shots. Correct me if I'm wrong on that but if I'm not that is the same thing I said...."entry level acceptable coffee" and there isn't anything wrong with that, but it is what it is.
For the rest of it, it seems to me that you have egged him on and encouraged him in this very behavior you are now griping about.
I don't agree with this either.
As best I can tell all I am doing is explaining some things new members or casual readers may not be aware of to make some sense of this thread.
Did I misrepresent anything there?
I don't think I did.
And I'm not egging on, in fact I doubt there are any questions in what I said or what would be open ended statements either.
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I am sorely tempted by the La Peppina. I would be interested if anyone had one to sell.
You mentioned somewhere back about "skipping ahead" to the lever.
I'm not sure it's a good idea. Not sure it could be bad either but from what you say you have never had good results via pump machines and if you don't take any time to go explore that and figure out what's up I don't know that you will be in the right place to use the lever as the next frontier. It will be your starting point.
I find it hard to find the words to say why that might not be the best idea because it's a fine idea....you are just missing a giant chunk of travel if you do that but your destination is still a good one. Does that make any sense?
John,
My first machine was a brass and copper Elektra Micro Casa a Leva. That was 4 years ago, and looking back now I would not have done it any other way. Between then and now I have had somewhere around 20 machines with 3 being HX machines. Every time I have had an HX it has entertained me for a few weeks / months, but I always end up selling them and going back to my levers. HXs are great machines and they definitely have their advantages. With that said, the small PF levers seem to just bring out such fine flavor nuances in the cup where they HXs really never could. Every style of machine is going to have it's advantages and disadvantages, but I do not think you would regret jumping straight to a lever. Just know that it takes a little longer to get a good grasp on pulling a great shot.
There is a Peppina on Ebay with 1 day and a few hours left. Right now it is at $168. Any price under $400 is fair for a Peppina in good condition.http://cgi.ebay.com/FEAR-PEPPINA-1960s-LEVER-ESPRESSO-COFFEE-MACHINE-/300450139160?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Small_Kitchen_Appliances_US&hash=item45f4394c18#ht_2673wt_1139] [url]http://cgi.ebay.com/FEAR-PEPPINA-1960s-LEVER-ESPRESSO-COFFEE-MACHINE-/300450139160?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Small_Kitchen_Appliances_US&hash=item45f4394c18#ht_2673wt_1139 (http://[url)[/url]
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For the rest of it, it seems to me that you have egged him on and encouraged him in this very behavior you are now griping about.
I don't agree with this either.
[/quote]
I agree that YOU have not done this.
I would say that the group in general has.
And now I am going to leave this thread for good.
It got rather like a Hot Topic, and we all know that I do not do well when it gets "hot"...
Susan
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My first machine was a brass and copper Elektra Micro Casa a Leva. That was 4 years ago, and looking back now I would not have done it any other way.
Yeah, I was having trouble picking my words there.
I suppose there is no wrong move to be had really and I can't figure out how to say what I am thinking so.....yeah. ;D
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And now I am going to leave this thread for good.
It got rather like a Hot Topic, and we all know that I do not do well when it gets "hot"...
Let it go Gurl. ;D
This like HT is not worth getting yourself worked up over. It's worth hashing out for those that wish to do it but here is the bottom line...
I've had 2 cups of pourover so far today, what have you been drinking? Later on I'm either going to build a small milk latte or maybe do an iced AP...how about you? Between all of this there is that, ya know? ;)
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Let it go Gurl. ;D
This like HT is not worth getting yourself worked up over. It's worth hashing out for those that wish to do it but here is the bottom line...
I've had 2 cups of pourover so far today, what have you been drinking? Later on I'm either going to build a small milk latte or maybe do an iced AP...how about you? Between all of this there is that, ya know? ;)
Right you are !!!!
Next up is a latte built on a double shot of Ecco Organic Espresso beans picked up at the Farmer's Market....
Susan
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Next up is a latte built on a double shot of Ecco Organic Espresso beans picked up at the Farmer's Market....
;)
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John,
My first machine was a brass and copper Elektra Micro Casa a Leva. That was 4 years ago, and looking back now I would not have done it any other way. Between then and now I have had somewhere around 20 machines with 3 being HX machines. Every time I have had an HX it has entertained me for a few weeks / months, but I always end up selling them and going back to my levers. HXs are great machines and they definitely have their advantages. With that said, the small PF levers seem to just bring out such fine flavor nuances in the cup where they HXs really never could. Every style of machine is going to have it's advantages and disadvantages, but I do not think you would regret jumping straight to a lever. Just know that it takes a little longer to get a good grasp on pulling a great shot.
There is a Peppina on Ebay with 1 day and a few hours left. Right now it is at $168. Any price under $400 is fair for a Peppina in good condition. [url]http://cgi.ebay.com/FEAR-PEPPINA-1960s-LEVER-ESPRESSO-COFFEE-MACHINE-/300450139160?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Small_Kitchen_Appliances_US&hash=item45f4394c18#ht_2673wt_1139]http://cgi.ebay.com/FEAR-PEPPINA-1960s-LEVER-ESPRESSO-COFFEE-MACHINE-/300450139160?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Small_Kitchen_Appliances_US&hash=item45f4394c18#ht_2673wt_1139] [url]http://cgi.ebay.com/FEAR-PEPPINA-1960s-LEVER-ESPRESSO-COFFEE-MACHINE-/300450139160?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Small_Kitchen_Appliances_US&hash=item45f4394c18#ht_2673wt_1139 (http://[url=http://cgi.ebay.com/FEAR-PEPPINA-1960s-LEVER-ESPRESSO-COFFEE-MACHINE-/300450139160?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Small_Kitchen_Appliances_US&hash=item45f4394c18#ht_2673wt_1139)[/url]
You would know better than I regarding levers but from my research over at HB and elsewhere I've come to believe either rightly or wrongly that the Peppina would be a more difficult lever to learn espresso on as a beginner as opposed to some of the other alternatives. When comparing a Peppina to the PVL the PVL gets the nod for reasons of the forgiving basket dimensions and the common statement that the PVL 'somehow manages to pull great shots across a pretty wide band'. Comparing the MCaL to the PVL, I think the general consensus over at HB is the PVL pulls shots easier (good for a beginner) and though lacking some of the potential clarity of the MCal it pulls shots that are as good in their own way, that said I would still like an MCaL next to the PVL. ;-)
You know from experience and I know from reading that all the levers have their own 'character' and so a lever choice as a beginner should be done fairly carefully if they are to start exploring espresso with an eye towards staying with espresso for the long haul rather than giving up in frustration. Also as a beginner I think the purchase be made with more of an eye towards a couple of years of ownership rather than what's the cheapest. I've got no problem with spending less, in fact my wife often accuses me of being Scottish, but with purchases like these sometimes it's better to buy the right machine the first time rather than the fourth time. Spending a bit more, amortized over a couple of years, will help a beginner get on the right path with less frustration and ultimately better results. Budget is a big factor in purchasing decisions and if a person only has $50 to spend then all the head scratching is simply tire kicking. For under $1000 there are a few choices in lever (pre-owned) but you can certainly get a single group PVL for under a G note.
I've pulled espresso on quite a few machines over the years, from commercial Synesso's and Rancillio's to my own shop machine for 2yrs which was a (no electronics) 3 group HX machine, of course I had the BII for about 4yrs and now I'm on to the lever. Through all of that I can always say to a beginner looking for direction that when it comes to espresso it's better to buy something that can outperform your own beginner abilities, how long it will do that is a matter of making the correct choice up front. And to continue the logic train, the machine should provide consistent results on multiple back to back shots in a short period of time (after all, it will be an 'experimentation lab' for the passionate beginner) and that's no easy machine choice if a person does their research. And lastly but perhaps not as important to a single person who never gets visitors, that the machine will meet the needs of entertaining and that means seven people in your kitchen wanting a small milk drink and for some of them it is their second drink.
Is lever the right choice for a beginner, I'm not so sure about that. Using Peter as an example of a smart decision; he purchased a reliable machine, capable of repeatability over back to backs, it has capacity to entertain and it has an understandable learning curve. There's something to be said about learning in a fairly linear fashion. Lever isn't a linear learning curve due to its pressure profile adjustability within the shot and of course that affects the shot to shot experimentation's of a beginner and that complicates the learning landscape for the beginner. Of course we aren't talking about NASA rocket science here but depending on the individual it might make the difference between staying on the path or giving up on espresso.
Could a person learn to pull great shots on a lever as a beginner, I think they could, but I think they would have skipped an important education by not going with an E-61 like Peter's to begin with. Of course then it comes back to budget and the lever-wannabe might be thinking 'buy Peter's machine and then some day I'm gonna buy a lever???? I can't afford that' but using Peter as an example again (sorry Peter) he can flip his machine back on to the market in a year or two and not have lost much money, he will have bought an education for his troubles and enjoyed a heck of a lot of good espresso, then he can post up here with a solid understanding of his espresso needs and ask the question 'which lever do you guys think...' or... he can hang on to his E-61 for several years and never look back, knowing he made a very capable choice on his first purchase.
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Could a person learn to pull great shots on a lever as a beginner, I think they could, but I think they would have skipped an important education by not going with an E-61 like Peter's to begin with. Of course then it comes back to budget and the lever-wannabe might be thinking 'buy Peter's machine and then some day I'm gonna buy a lever???? I can't afford that' but using Peter as an example again (sorry Peter) he can flip his machine back on to the market in a year or two and not have lost much money, he will have bought an education for his troubles and enjoyed a heck of a lot of good espresso, then he can post up here with a solid understanding of his espresso needs and ask the question 'which lever do you guys think...' or... he can hang on to his E-61 for several years and never look back, knowing he made a very capable choice on his first purchase.
You can use me any time... ;)
I suppose it will vary for every person. My latest 'spiritual project' (for lack of a better term) is to forget about the goal, and instead let the process have the priority. I can go to preaching some other time, but it applies well to espresso too.
Somebody like Mike, warrior372 (which makes me want to hint at him to go post in that username thread ;D) might have the mind and character make-up that would allow for a lever to be the ground level. Others like perhaps Pyment and certainly myself, have something in us that may need a couple less variables.
The questions to ask ourselves are can I embrace the process for the duration? Do I have the personality to enjoy a ride that may have some extra twists and turns? Can I turn that process into a bed of wisdom, or will the twists and turns be a frustration?
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I do believe the Peppina does have a 58mm basket, so your cup would not get the same notes that could be produced by a smaller MCaL, PVL, MicroCimbali, etc. They are darn cool looking though. (edit > their PFs are actualy 45mm, so they should be able to achieve similar results.)
Peter could sell his machine for a decent amount of money, but if you find a classic lever for a fair price you could stand to actually make money on your purchase. I bought the MCaL new for $1050 and had it for about 2 years. In that 2 years the retail for the machine went from $1,050 to $1,350, so when I went to sell it I got all of what I paid for it back. I can not say that about any of the HX machines I have owned. The HXs are always being modified and upgraded by the retailers to make new and improved models, while the many of the levers are the same as they have been since the 60s.
Is an HX easier to learn on than a Lever machine? Absolutely. Is learning how to use a spin rod easier than learning how to fly fish? Yes. Is it easier to buy handmade cheese than to make your own? Yes. Some things are just more appealing to some people versus others. Not that one is absolutely wrong and one is absolutely right, but people have preferences. I prefer spending more time on / with simpler things, regardless of whether the process is more or less difficult.
You are absolutely right in saying people will achieve better results more quickly with an HX. I just like the chase of pursuing the perfect shot with very simple and classic machines.
As for all of this SBDU versus HX stuff. . . I say we end the conversation by saying everyone should just buy a single group commercial lever machine and most of the argued points will be answered. Temperature stability? Yes all of the metal in my 85lb levers make them very temp stable. I can steam for hours on end and pull shots at the same time. They go up in value because they are very rare. They look like mechanical art.
I am just joking around everyone should, just buy what makes them happy or what they think will make them happy now and for the near future. The nice part about things like craigslist is that you can find lever machines, HX machines, commercial machines, SBDUs, etc. all for under $500 dollars. If you really look hard and are patient you can find all of them for around $200. So look for deals, buy different types of machines and try them out to see what You personally prefer. That is why I have had so many machines over the past few years, Levers, HXs, Semi-Autos, I am just curious about what every type of machine has to offer. They all offer different things that make them as machines fun to use and learn about espresso on.
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Hurry up and build me an awesome antique lever that pulls amazing shots, for $37, ok maybe $38. ;-)
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I say we end the conversation by saying everyone should just buy a single group commercial lever machine ..
Like what?
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I say we end the conversation by saying everyone should just buy a single group commercial lever machine ..
Like what?
John,
I was just kidding around. Buy whatever you think will meet / exceed your current expectations. Try to get it for the best price possible so if it does not meet your expectations / preferences or you up your expectations at any point you can sell the machine for at least what you paid for it and purchase a different machine.
The reason I started 'collecting' lever machines is because even within the same style of machine there are a lot of differences. I personally prefer levers with smaller PF baskets. That is me. 10 people could try shots pulled from a 49mm PF lever machine and disagree with me. I am not playing to other peoples palates / preferences I am playing to my own. The reason I filter through so many machines is that I am always looking for machines at a great price that might better please my palate.
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John,
I was just kidding around.
I wasn't...info on levers is not easy to come by for some reason. :-X
If you have 2-3 recommendations on single group commercial lever machines (and a place to buy them) I'd spend time looking into that.
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I do believe the Peppina does have a 58mm basket
I think it's more like 45 mm.
Susan
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There must be a Murphy-ism somewhere about the length of a thread and the degree to which it diverts from the original intent? I'd hoped to get everyone's opinion about what they like about their current machines, what they didn't like about a past machines, and what they'd like to have in a future machines.
I apologize for my part in this diversion. From now on I'll post only about what I can back up from personal experience, and I'd hope others will do likewise. No more personal attacks, or hyperbole - just the facts mam.
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I do believe the Peppina does have a 58mm basket
I think it's more like 45 mm.
Susan
I stand corrected. You are spot on Susan!
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I remember how sad I was that the gorgeous Thor tamper I bought for my SAMA (49 mm I think) turned out to be too big to fit in La Peppina.
Susan
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I was looking at this one:
(http://www.thortamper.com/sitebuilder/images/45mm_Olivewood_Tamper-211x415.jpg)
45mm
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Nature at its best.
:)
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1st Line is saying that Lelit is adding a PID to their PL041. 1st Line will have it early 2011.
That means in addition to a PID, this machine will have:
An OPV valve factory adjusted to 9-10 bar.
1000 watt heating element
220 ml brass boiler
3 way solenoid
Group is under the boiler
http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/lelit/PL041.htm (http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/lelit/PL041.htm)
It will be interesting to see what price this comes in at.
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Here's an odd question.
let's say you have an HX machine which uses a pressure stat and you want to upgrade it, but a larger P-stat like a Sirai won't fit the machine.
Is there a way that the pressure stat function can be performed external to the machine? Is this a place where a PID would work?
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Or you could buy an HX machine with the Sirai already installed
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3624/3485516446_a098f1fd15_z.jpg)
I've been using this HX machine (Salvatore Espresso One Black) for 16 months day in and day out, no problems. $1100
I'm not pimpin' for Salvatore, just a satisfied customer
Jake
Reddick Fla.
"Too dumb for opera, too smart for NASCAR"-Anonymous
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Let's just say there are things pushing me in another direction. (http://www.msn101.com/content/emoticons/Suspicious_DXD5FP.gif)
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Here's an odd question.
let's say you have an HX machine which uses a pressure stat and you want to upgrade it, but a larger P-stat like a Sirai won't fit the machine.
Is there a way that the pressure stat function can be performed external to the machine? Is this a place where a PID would work?
I PID HX machines all the time. The pstat is almost as accurate as the PID, and since exact control of the boiler temp in the HX isn't as critical as a SBDU or DB, if it ain't broke don't fix it.
But I have other reasons for replacing the pstat with a PID. NOISE! The Sirai has 3 mechanical relays that open and close often enough, and loudly enough, that they had to go. It doesn't COMPLETELY silence the HX, there's still the auto-fill solenoid & pump noises, but it does make the HX much more welcome in my kitchen!
here's a simple wiring diagram for PIDing the HX.
edited: Want another reason to replace a defunct pstat with a PID? The pstats rubber diaphragm is the part that fails most in consumer/commercial espresso machines. The diaphragm kit is fairly inexpensive to replace in Sirai pstats, but there are no kits for most other brands, so it's necessary to replace the whole thing. A PID will last indefinitely in my experience, in fact I have one that's been in use 24/7 for three years without a hiccup.