High budget or low budget espresso equipment?

[peter]

This time around your reply is closer to an answer.  To reply as you did the first time by saying, "Sorry, there aren't any $2000 commercial HX machines built to the same standards," is not an answer. 

Then to top it off you insult me by making assumptions on what I may or may not know about commercial machines... that's why I'm asking.  Thanks for being so kind and helpful.

OK, all that aside, apart from the Bunn being built like a tank...  let's say the Bunn will last 15 years and the $2K machine will last only 5 years.  I will try and ask again, maybe you're feeling kinder and helpfuller now; while the Bunn and a $2K machine are both working properly, what does the Bunn offer that a $2K machine doesn't?

I get it that the Bunn is built like a tank.  Is that the only thing that would make it better, or is it easier to work with, does it make any better shots?  Apart from it being a tank, does it have any features an Andrea Premium doesn't?

[peechdogg]

Two words.

Lever machines.

You can go active or passive, decide real time on amount of either or a blend of both.

yea,, I somehow knew you would respond. Right after I posted, I realized a lever machine is that "hole in my espresso soul" that needs to be filled... Ms. Dogg is gonna pitch a fit when the box box with a PVL or some such device makes its appearance....

[BoldJava]

yea,, I somehow knew you would respond. Right after I posted, I realized a lever machine is that "hole in my espresso soul" that needs to be filled... Ms. Dogg is gonna pitch a fit when the box box with a PVL or some such device makes its appearance....

There are ways of dealing with this.

"Hon, the Lusso people asked me to trial it for a SE Barista sub-competition in Atlanta, Spring 2012."

"I am trying it here at home so that I can adequately train the baristas at the shop for a Summer 2011 launch."

Or, accept the inevitable.  Peechdogg => Dogghaus.  I doubt that she would stay mad that long and the lever is probably worth it.  One for the team.

Or, that's how I see it from way up here.  Let me know which works.

B|Java

[GC7]

Peter
Here is some information I found in a very quick search.
http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/bunn-es-1a-comes-back-to-life-t4505.html
http://reviews.ebay.com/Bunn-ES-1A-HX-espresso-machine_W0QQugidZ10000000012129597
From this article comes “What should a Bunn ES-1A cost? Depending on condition & completeness; $350 - $550 is a fair price.”
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Alt/alt.coffee/2007-10/msg00271.html

It’s a Gaggia machine that’s no longer made and some parts might be hard to obtain. I’d prefer an Electra but I’m sure this can kick out some nice coffee. If someone wants to spend $3000 for one of these with no service or possibly no replacement parts then I have an old Edsel to sell them to se as their primary transportation.

[Tex]

This time around your reply is closer to an answer.  To reply as you did the first time by saying, "Sorry, there aren't any $2000 commercial HX machines built to the same standards," is not an answer. 

Then to top it off you insult me by making assumptions on what I may or may not know about commercial machines... that's why I'm asking.  Thanks for being so kind and helpful.

OK, all that aside, apart from the Bunn being built like a tank...  let's say the Bunn will last 15 years and the $2K machine will last only 5 years.  I will try and ask again, maybe you're feeling kinder and helpfuller now; while the Bunn and a $2K machine are both working properly, what does the Bunn offer that a $2K machine doesn't?

I get it that the Bunn is built like a tank.  Is that the only thing that would make it better, or is it easier to work with, does it make any better shots?  Apart from it being a tank, does it have any features an Andrea Premium doesn't?

The $2000 & $3000 machines will probably make the same cup of coffee; assuming they're in proper working order and the operator knows how to use them. What the extra money buys is a machine built to withstand the day-in day-out constant use that a commercial machine is built for.

A properly tuned inexpensive machine will pull the same shot a $3000 machine will. Figure it out - the brew temp & pressure are all the machine is contributing to the process. The coffee used and the operators expertise is transferable from one machine to another. So if I've got a machine that can hold the correct temperature and pressure for the duration of the shot, that's all I need. Everything else is eye candy!

[Tex]

Peter
Here is some information I found in a very quick search.
http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/bunn-es-1a-comes-back-to-life-t4505.html
http://reviews.ebay.com/Bunn-ES-1A-HX-espresso-machine_W0QQugidZ10000000012129597
From this article comes “What should a Bunn ES-1A cost? Depending on condition & completeness; $350 - $550 is a fair price.”
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Alt/alt.coffee/2007-10/msg00271.html

It’s a Gaggia machine that’s no longer made and some parts might be hard to obtain. I’d prefer an Electra but I’m sure this can kick out some nice coffee. If someone wants to spend $3000 for one of these with no service or possibly no replacement parts then I have an old Edsel to sell them to se as their primary transportation.

There are no parts on the Bunn ES-1A that aren't readily available (it's just a Faema design built by Futurmat) - that's why they're so much more attractive than machines using hard to find & pricey proprietary parts.

And if you'll look at my post I said relative cost for a comparable NEW machine - and those cost ~$3000.

[GC7]

Sorry about the parts mistake.  It's the machine itself thats relatively hard to find.

We can argue till the Mayan calendar ends in a couple of years along with the end of the earth about temperature stability of tiny boiler machines PID'd or not over the course of multiple shots. We will have to totally disagree that those machines are capable of doing anything close to what you say they can do. 1500 W or not you can not make that small mass stable quickly after refilling most of the entire boiler contents.

Why do you need a heavy duty commercial machine when you can pull perfect shot after shot after shot with your Gaggia?

[peechdogg]

yea,, I somehow knew you would respond. Right after I posted, I realized a lever machine is that "hole in my espresso soul" that needs to be filled... Ms. Dogg is gonna pitch a fit when the box box with a PVL or some such device makes its appearance....

There are ways of dealing with this.

"Hon, the Lusso people asked me to trial it for a SE Barista sub-competition in Atlanta, Spring 2012."

"I am trying it here at home so that I can adequately train the baristas at the shop for a Summer 2011 launch."

Or, accept the inevitable.  Peechdogg => Dogghaus.  I doubt that she would stay mad that long and the lever is probably worth it.  One for the team.

Or, that's how I see it from way up here.  Let me know which works.

B|Java

Ummm... I've already done the "they asked me to demo the machine" trick... asking forgiveness with a fine espresso in hand is the best way... asking permission is just plain stoopid, IMO....

More to follow, I'm sure...

[staylor]

Two words.

Lever machines.

You can go active or passive, decide real time on amount of either or a blend of both.

yea,, I somehow knew you would respond. Right after I posted, I realized a lever machine is that "hole in my espresso soul" that needs to be filled... Ms. Dogg is gonna pitch a fit when the box box with a PVL or some such device makes its appearance....

I tried not to but I'm glad others threw the 'lever rabbit hole' at me when they did. I'm enjoying it, I bet you do too. ;-)

[peter]

The next level of technical espresso geekdom I want to explore is variable times & pressures with pre-infusion. Are you going to tackle that with a SBDU? No, I'm not trying to argue, and I realize that is something no home/semi-commercial single head machine allows for right now .... just wondering if that's something on your Tex-dar...??

That seems to be the geek issue du jour, doesn't it? I'm not sure most folks even understand what it is and what its purpose is.

Preinfusion is having a way to let line pressure water soak the puck before the shot begins. Its purpose is to reduce channeling in the puck by wetting the grounds, letting the puck swell to fill the filter before the 9 bar pressure from the pumps hits it. It was a big thing back in the 90's when some commercial makers added it to their machines.

It seems to me the better way to protect the puck is via pressure ramping; using an air chamber to buffer the 9 bar pressure. Some folks have done this to Silvia's, but I've never seen the results presented as a graph showing the ramping effect.

BTW: My Bunn ES-1A has both features, and you can turn the preinfusion on or off as you wish.

Pardon me for asking you to type all this out,  .  Can you tell me briefly how the Bunn manages both these features? 

[staylor]

This time around your reply is closer to an answer.  To reply as you did the first time by saying, "Sorry, there aren't any $2000 commercial HX machines built to the same standards," is not an answer. 

Then to top it off you insult me by making assumptions on what I may or may not know about commercial machines... that's why I'm asking.  Thanks for being so kind and helpful.

OK, all that aside, apart from the Bunn being built like a tank...  let's say the Bunn will last 15 years and the $2K machine will last only 5 years.  I will try and ask again, maybe you're feeling kinder and helpfuller now; while the Bunn and a $2K machine are both working properly, what does the Bunn offer that a $2K machine doesn't?

I get it that the Bunn is built like a tank.  Is that the only thing that would make it better, or is it easier to work with, does it make any better shots?  Apart from it being a tank, does it have any features an Andrea Premium doesn't?

The $2000 & $3000 machines will probably make the same cup of coffee; assuming they're in proper working order and the operator knows how to use them. What the extra money buys is a machine built to withstand the day-in day-out constant use that a commercial machine is built for.

A properly tuned inexpensive machine will pull the same shot a $3000 machine will. Figure it out - the brew temp & pressure are all the machine is contributing to the process. The coffee used and the operators expertise is transferable from one machine to another. So if I've got a machine that can hold the correct temperature and pressure for the duration of the shot, that's all I need. Everything else is eye candy!

Well if we can make some fair and reasonable assumptions (see below) in order to do a fair and reasonable comparison between your never ending illogical proposition...

Assumption #1 - The operator is a skilled espresso machine man of the house.
Assumption #2 - The operator owns two machines, one is a $200 machine and it is in proper working order and tuned as best as possible, the other machine is a $2000 - $3000 machine.
Assumption #3 - The operator is responsible for pulling multiple back to back shots to entertain 3 of his buddies that came over to see his new espresso machine. For sake of argument, the operator has to pull 8 shots (2 per person) within 20mins.
Assumption #4 - The operator then has to make 3 x lattes for the wives/girlfriends of his buddies who just showed up and who have heard about the espresso machine and are excited because they just llllluuuuuuuuuuvvvvvvv latte's. All three of them are just dropping by to say goodbye to their husbands/boyfriends before they head off to a movie but they have 10mins before they have to go - so that's 3 x lattes in less than 10mins.

Is the challenge of 8 x shots in 20mins followed by 3 x latte's in 10mins an unlikely scenario, uhmmmmmm I do it all the time. And I tell people to plan for lots of drinks when they are choosing an espresso machine. Eventually, even hermits have guests.

So, can the $200 machine take care of the above?

[Tex]

The next level of technical espresso geekdom I want to explore is variable times & pressures with pre-infusion. Are you going to tackle that with a SBDU? No, I'm not trying to argue, and I realize that is something no home/semi-commercial single head machine allows for right now .... just wondering if that's something on your Tex-dar...??

That seems to be the geek issue du jour, doesn't it? I'm not sure most folks even understand what it is and what its purpose is.

Preinfusion is having a way to let line pressure water soak the puck before the shot begins. Its purpose is to reduce channeling in the puck by wetting the grounds, letting the puck swell to fill the filter before the 9 bar pressure from the pumps hits it. It was a big thing back in the 90's when some commercial makers added it to their machines.

It seems to me the better way to protect the puck is via pressure ramping; using an air chamber to buffer the 9 bar pressure. Some folks have done this to Silvia's, but I've never seen the results presented as a graph showing the ramping effect.

BTW: My Bunn ES-1A has both features, and you can turn the preinfusion on or off as you wish.

Pardon me for asking you to type all this out,  .  Can you tell me briefly how the Bunn manages both these features?  

The Faema/Futurmat E61-type group has an expansion chamber that permits the pressure to ramp up during a shot. It's one of the often unsung features of an E61 group.

The ES-1A manual describes how pre-infusion works (pg 12).

[Tex]

This time around your reply is closer to an answer.  To reply as you did the first time by saying, "Sorry, there aren't any $2000 commercial HX machines built to the same standards," is not an answer. 

Then to top it off you insult me by making assumptions on what I may or may not know about commercial machines... that's why I'm asking.  Thanks for being so kind and helpful.

OK, all that aside, apart from the Bunn being built like a tank...  let's say the Bunn will last 15 years and the $2K machine will last only 5 years.  I will try and ask again, maybe you're feeling kinder and helpfuller now; while the Bunn and a $2K machine are both working properly, what does the Bunn offer that a $2K machine doesn't?

I get it that the Bunn is built like a tank.  Is that the only thing that would make it better, or is it easier to work with, does it make any better shots?  Apart from it being a tank, does it have any features an Andrea Premium doesn't?

The $2000 & $3000 machines will probably make the same cup of coffee; assuming they're in proper working order and the operator knows how to use them. What the extra money buys is a machine built to withstand the day-in day-out constant use that a commercial machine is built for.

A properly tuned inexpensive machine will pull the same shot a $3000 machine will. Figure it out - the brew temp & pressure are all the machine is contributing to the process. The coffee used and the operators expertise is transferable from one machine to another. So if I've got a machine that can hold the correct temperature and pressure for the duration of the shot, that's all I need. Everything else is eye candy!

Well if we can make some fair and reasonable assumptions (see below) in order to do a fair and reasonable comparison between your never ending illogical proposition...

Assumption #1 - The operator is a skilled espresso machine man of the house.
Assumption #2 - The operator owns two machines, one is a $200 machine and it is in proper working order and tuned as best as possible, the other machine is a $2000 - $3000 machine.
Assumption #3 - The operator is responsible for pulling multiple back to back shots to entertain 3 of his buddies that came over to see his new espresso machine. For sake of argument, the operator has to pull 8 shots (2 per person) within 20mins.
Assumption #4 - The operator then has to make 3 x lattes for the wives/girlfriends of his buddies who just showed up and who have heard about the espresso machine and are excited because they just llllluuuuuuuuuuvvvvvvv latte's. All three of them are just dropping by to say goodbye to their husbands/boyfriends before they head off to a movie but they have 10mins before they have to go - so that's 3 x lattes in less than 10mins.

Is the challenge of 8 x shots in 20mins followed by 3 x latte's in 10mins an unlikely scenario, uhmmmmmm I do it all the time. And I tell people to plan for lots of drinks when they are choosing an espresso machine. Eventually, even hermits have guests.

So, can the $200 machine take care of the above?

I must be making my points because you keep moving the target.

I'm talking about pulling shots of espresso; that's all I've ever talked about. I've said that multiple frou-frou drinks are a different situation, one in which the SBDU machine cannot compare with HX & DB machines.

Please limit your posts to the topic of the original post - making quality espresso. We can discuss frou-frou drinks in another thread if you wish?

[Warrior372]

Two words.

Lever machines.

You can go active or passive, decide real time on amount of either or a blend of both.

yea,, I somehow knew you would respond. Right after I posted, I realized a lever machine is that "hole in my espresso soul" that needs to be filled... Ms. Dogg is gonna pitch a fit when the box box with a PVL or some such device makes its appearance....

I tried not to but I'm glad others threw the 'lever rabbit hole' at me when they did. I'm enjoying it, I bet you do too. ;-)

I have owned 15 or so prosumer and commercial espresso machines. Everything from various semi-auto Isomacs and Rancilios to levers from Elektra, Olympia, San Marco, Conti and Carimali. After owning as many machines as I have, I can absolutely say that levers allow the barista more control. They take much more time to master, but the control you will eventually have over your shots is not even comparable.

+1 on the lever comment!

[Tex]

Two words.

Lever machines.

You can go active or passive, decide real time on amount of either or a blend of both.

yea,, I somehow knew you would respond. Right after I posted, I realized a lever machine is that "hole in my espresso soul" that needs to be filled... Ms. Dogg is gonna pitch a fit when the box box with a PVL or some such device makes its appearance....

I tried not to but I'm glad others threw the 'lever rabbit hole' at me when they did. I'm enjoying it, I bet you do too. ;-)

I have owned 15 or so prosumer and commercial espresso machines. Everything from various semi-auto Isomacs and Rancilios to levers from Elektra, Olympia, San Marco, Conti and Carimali. After owning as many machines as I have, I can absolutely say that levers allow the barista more control. They take much more time to master, but the control you will eventually have over your shots is not even comparable.

+1 on the lever comment!

I wish I'd kept the Rancilio lever (CMA) I rebuilt a bit longer - it seemed to have a lot of promise. Unfortunately, with my bursitis pulling a lever just wasn't in the cards for me. But I'm still on the lookout for my Visacrem VX, and if I find one bursitis be damned, I'll have it in my kitchen.