High budget or low budget espresso equipment?

[milowebailey]

Well if we can make some fair and reasonable assumptions (see below) in order to do a fair and reasonable comparison between your never ending illogical proposition...

Assumption #1 - The operator is a skilled espresso machine man of the house.
Assumption #2 - The operator owns two machines, one is a $200 machine and it is in proper working order and tuned as best as possible, the other machine is a $2000 - $3000 machine.
Assumption #3 - The operator is responsible for pulling multiple back to back shots to entertain 3 of his buddies that came over to see his new espresso machine. For sake of argument, the operator has to pull 8 shots (2 per person) within 20mins.
Assumption #4 - The operator then has to make 3 x lattes for the wives/girlfriends of his buddies who just showed up and who have heard about the espresso machine and are excited because they just llllluuuuuuuuuuvvvvvvv latte's. All three of them are just dropping by to say goodbye to their husbands/boyfriends before they head off to a movie but they have 10mins before they have to go - so that's 3 x lattes in less than 10mins.

Is the challenge of 8 x shots in 20mins followed by 3 x latte's in 10mins an unlikely scenario, uhmmmmmm I do it all the time. And I tell people to plan for lots of drinks when they are choosing an espresso machine. Eventually, even hermits have guests.

So, can the $200 machine take care of the above?

Let me take a stab at this one since I currently own 5 commercial 2 group machines, an Elektra consumer machine and 5 consumer Gaggias.

The short answer is No!

Can I get a decent shot on my Gaggias, yes and I do most of the time.  However as you stated I am not going to be able to pull shot after shot without waiting for the machine to stabilize again and I cannot steam milk and pull a shot at the same time.  That's my biggest beef with most consumer machines.  You have to let the espresso sit for a couple minutes while you wait for the boiler to get hot enough to steam the milk.  Given a choice I think most people would choose a commercial machine if they have the space for it and the money to buy one.  With that said a Gaggia (with all the mods) is a good machine to learn on and can pull consistent shots.  Just as a SC/TO can roast some great coffee....but cannot compete in quantity and reliability with a commercial roaster.

Great discussion though!!

[peter]

Maybe that's why Tex likes to poo-poo the froo-froo...  does he not want to make them because he can't?   

[Tex]

Well if we can make some fair and reasonable assumptions (see below) in order to do a fair and reasonable comparison between your never ending illogical proposition...

Assumption #1 - The operator is a skilled espresso machine man of the house.
Assumption #2 - The operator owns two machines, one is a $200 machine and it is in proper working order and tuned as best as possible, the other machine is a $2000 - $3000 machine.
Assumption #3 - The operator is responsible for pulling multiple back to back shots to entertain 3 of his buddies that came over to see his new espresso machine. For sake of argument, the operator has to pull 8 shots (2 per person) within 20mins.
Assumption #4 - The operator then has to make 3 x lattes for the wives/girlfriends of his buddies who just showed up and who have heard about the espresso machine and are excited because they just llllluuuuuuuuuuvvvvvvv latte's. All three of them are just dropping by to say goodbye to their husbands/boyfriends before they head off to a movie but they have 10mins before they have to go - so that's 3 x lattes in less than 10mins.

Is the challenge of 8 x shots in 20mins followed by 3 x latte's in 10mins an unlikely scenario, uhmmmmmm I do it all the time. And I tell people to plan for lots of drinks when they are choosing an espresso machine. Eventually, even hermits have guests.

So, can the $200 machine take care of the above?

Let me take a stab at this one since I currently own 5 commercial 2 group machines, an Elektra consumer machine and 5 consumer Gaggias.

The short answer is No!

Can I get a decent shot on my Gaggias, yes and I do most of the time.  However as you stated I am not going to be able to pull shot after shot without waiting for the machine to stabilize again and I cannot steam milk and pull a shot at the same time.  That's my biggest beef with most consumer machines.  You have to let the espresso sit for a couple minutes while you wait for the boiler to get hot enough to steam the milk.  Given a choice I think most people would choose a commercial machine if they have the space for it and the money to buy one.  With that said a Gaggia (with all the mods) is a good machine to learn on and can pull consistent shots.  Just as a SC/TO can roast some great coffee....but cannot compete in quantity and reliability with a commercial roaster.

Great discussion though!!

It takes 30 - 45 seconds for a Gaggia to go from brew temp (203°F) to steam temp (300°F). Maybe you ought to send me your Gaggia to look at Larry, a couple of minutes would indicate a very sick machine.

[Tex]

Maybe that's why Tex likes to poo-poo the froo-froo...  does he not want to make them because he can't?   

Slightly lactose intolerant if I overdo it - I literally poo-poo the frou-frou!

[staylor]

I must be making my points because you keep moving the target.

I'm talking about pulling shots of espresso; that's all I've ever talked about. I've said that multiple frou-frou drinks are a different situation, one in which the SBDU machine cannot compare with HX & DB machines.

Please limit your posts to the topic of the original post - making quality espresso. We can discuss frou-frou drinks in another thread if you wish?

Hahaha, that's so funny...

Because I had to go back to see what your original post was (I included it at the bottom of this post so you don't have to go back to your first post) and then to be sure I wasn't confused I had to look at the title of this entire thread, (I'll save you from looking up, waaaaaay up, it says 'high budget or low budget espresso equipment) which leaves me scratching my head thinking the post I made fits into your thread... doesn't it? Or did you really mean your thread title to say 'Please don't apply logic in this thread, everyone must agree that my Gaggia's are dragon slayers'.

So, for clarity, is this thread about racing junkers, spending money, focusing on quality espresso, or selling Gaggia's?

Read your initial post and let me know...

"Back in the day;

New competitive shooters would spend $300 to get an accurized Gold Cup .45 from Bob Chow, when the chief armorer of the U.S. Army Marksmanship Detachment at Ft Benning could sell them an accurized surplus Army .45 for $125. Both guns would hold a 4" grouping at 50 yards while on a mechanical rest.

Some street racers would spend $3000 - $5000 for a new Olds 442 that would go from 0 - 60 in under 5 seconds, while the knowledgeable racers would buy a junker, toss in a blue printed big-block Chevy & 4-speed, and go racing for titles and win.

Similarly, today some folks spend $1000 - $7000 for great espresso machines, while others prefer to build theirs themselves using the same premium quality parts in the expensive factory built espresso machines.

What's my point? Just because you can buy a great looking factory toy, don't bet the farm when you come up against a home-built hot rod in the hands of a knowledgeable builder/user."

[GC7]

Well if we can make some fair and reasonable assumptions (see below) in order to do a fair and reasonable comparison between your never ending illogical proposition...

Assumption #1 - The operator is a skilled espresso machine man of the house.
Assumption #2 - The operator owns two machines, one is a $200 machine and it is in proper working order and tuned as best as possible, the other machine is a $2000 - $3000 machine.
Assumption #3 - The operator is responsible for pulling multiple back to back shots to entertain 3 of his buddies that came over to see his new espresso machine. For sake of argument, the operator has to pull 8 shots (2 per person) within 20mins.
Assumption #4 - The operator then has to make 3 x lattes for the wives/girlfriends of his buddies who just showed up and who have heard about the espresso machine and are excited because they just llllluuuuuuuuuuvvvvvvv latte's. All three of them are just dropping by to say goodbye to their husbands/boyfriends before they head off to a movie but they have 10mins before they have to go - so that's 3 x lattes in less than 10mins.

Is the challenge of 8 x shots in 20mins followed by 3 x latte's in 10mins an unlikely scenario, uhmmmmmm I do it all the time. And I tell people to plan for lots of drinks when they are choosing an espresso machine. Eventually, even hermits have guests.

So, can the $200 machine take care of the above?

Let me take a stab at this one since I currently own 5 commercial 2 group machines, an Elektra consumer machine and 5 consumer Gaggias.

The short answer is No!

Can I get a decent shot on my Gaggias, yes and I do most of the time.  However as you stated I am not going to be able to pull shot after shot without waiting for the machine to stabilize again and I cannot steam milk and pull a shot at the same time.  That's my biggest beef with most consumer machines.  You have to let the espresso sit for a couple minutes while you wait for the boiler to get hot enough to steam the milk.  Given a choice I think most people wou\d choose a commercial machine if they have the space for it and the money to buy one.  With that said a Gaggia (with all the mods) is a good machine to learn on and can pull consistent shots.  Just as a SC/TO can roast some great coffee....but cannot compete in quantity and reliability with a commercial roaster.

Great discussion though!!

Milo - That is a very balanced reply and one that fits with what those I know with various machines have experienced.

[milowebailey]

It takes 30 - 45 seconds for a Gaggia to go from brew temp (203°F) to steam temp (300°F). Maybe you ought to send me your Gaggia to look at Larry, a couple of minutes would indicate a very sick machine.

IMO 45 seconds is longer than I want to wait to start steaming the milk, add another 45 seconds to steam it and it's 1 1/2 that the shot is sitting.  I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying I'd rather be able to steam milk at the same time the shot is pouring.

[CAGurl]

IMO 45 seconds is longer than I want to wait to start steaming the milk, add another 45 seconds to steam it and it's 1 1/2 that the shot is sitting.  I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying I'd rather be able to steam milk at the same time the shot is pouring.

Interesting;  with my Classic, when I finish pulling the shot, I walk to the fridge, pour nonfat milk and a splash of half and half into the steaming pitcher, walk back to the machine, and start steaming.  No waiting....

Susan

[peter]

Interesting; that's how I used to do it.

Now, I have the milk ready in the pitcher, grind, load the PF, start the shot, start steaming...  soon as the shot is done, the microfoam is too, and I can pour the milk immediately.

From what Larry is saying, the question becomes, would you rather be pouring microfoam immediately when the shot is done, or however long it takes to walk to the fridge/get out the pitcher/pour the milk/pour the half and half/walk to the machine/steam, letting the shot sit there?

[Warrior372]

It takes 30 - 45 seconds for a Gaggia to go from brew temp (203°F) to steam temp (300°F). Maybe you ought to send me your Gaggia to look at Larry, a couple of minutes would indicate a very sick machine.

IMO 45 seconds is longer than I want to wait to start steaming the milk, add another 45 seconds to steam it and it's 1 1/2 that the shot is sitting.  I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying I'd rather be able to steam milk at the same time the shot is pouring.

Ideally, a shot of espresso should be consumed within 2 minutes of the shot being pulled. I have always assumed it has to do with heat loss. With that said, I am not sure how adding steamed milk impacts this window of time. I think it would lengthen it, as you are adding another hot ingredient.

[staylor]

From this morning.

13.9gms of Brazil Nossa Senhora de Fatima

[peter]

I hadn't heard about the Vario...

[CAGurl]

Interesting; that's how I used to do it.

Now, I have the milk ready in the pitcher, grind, load the PF, start the shot, start steaming...  soon as the shot is done, the microfoam is too, and I can pour the milk immediately.

From what Larry is saying, the question becomes, would you rather be pouring microfoam immediately when the shot is done, or however long it takes to walk to the fridge/get out the pitcher/pour the milk/pour the half and half/walk to the machine/steam, letting the shot sit there?

I prefer it my way.
I wouldn't like to be pulling the shot and steaming at the same time.
I like doing each and paying full attention to each.
But I can see how someone who was pressed for time might like your way better.

Susan

[peter]

This is not to be argumentative, or even saying it's better or worse.  But how many shots have you watched, and what's the need to watch every one of them?  Just curious.

[Warrior372]

This is not to be argumentative, or even saying it's better or worse.  But how many shots have you watched, and what's the need to watch every one of them?  Just curious.

One reason would be because you do not want blond / bitter espresso in the cup. I just tend to get the steam nozzle where I need it in the milk and really pay more attention to the shot, pulling the demitasse when needed.