Author Topic: The Carezza compendium  (Read 11460 times)

Offline mp

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Re: The Carezza compendium
« Reply #30 on: March 19, 2009, 08:30:23 PM »
Can I reply here now?
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Offline mp

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Re: The Carezza compendium
« Reply #31 on: March 19, 2009, 08:49:35 PM »
Well even though I have a pretty capable photo rig it's my skills with it that's the limitation rather than the camera. I'm not too happy about the quality of the images I put up but I guess they will serve the purpose.

What threw me off about how you are describing your steaming is this... Typically when a person goes to steam microfoam there is an initial few seconds where the air bubbles are introduced into the milk by skimming the surface of the milk. As I discussed this with John, I showed him that I might only surface surf for 3secs or maybe 4secs depending on what I am trying to do (and depending on the age of the milk, type, planetary alignment, etc). Once the initial 3sec air bubbles exist it then requires the fractioning of those big bubbles (and by big I mean small bubbles, but they are massive compared to the end result micro-bubbles). The remainder of your time is spent manipulating the milk to destroy the bubbles into smaller and smaller and smaller sized bubbles. That requires you to sink the wand into the jug and get on to bubble-smashing. Now remember, I'm not talking about the big sea foam bubbles that you see EVERYWHERE, I'm talking about small bubbles that then get smashed into super-small bubbles.

Watching the Carrezza video posted by Tex and talking with John, the Carrezza wand is introducing house-sized bubbles into the milk. Uhmmmm, not good. The small bubbles I'm talking about are only introduced in the first 2-3secs from then on it should be a no-air scenario.

Huh? No air? Well, about 4 or 5yrs ago there was a a magical point in the espresso world where good baristas, observant home espresso drinkers and passionate geeks started talking about the abilities (or more importantly the non-abilities) of certain wands, wand tips, boilers, dry steam, wet steam, phony air introduction systems, etc. Out of that came an understanding that simple because you hold a steam wand in your hand doesn't make it magically capable of producing microfoam. Speaking of the Brewtus II that I use, the Brewtus Users Forum went through a period of time where at least five steam tips were compared, one of them being the stock tip that came with the machine (horrendous) and one of them being the tip I bought after-market (awesome). So again, because it's called an espresso machine doesn't guarantee any ability to produce microfoam - so your inability to punch out good foam may not have anything to do with you, it could simply be a bad steam tip.

Following me so far?

Maybe check to see if there is mention on Google about Isomac Tea steam tips - suck/no suck?

Hey Shaun ... yes I get what you are saying.  I never heard an analogy like that for frothing milk but my results with the Tea ll speak for themselves ... in other words this sounds like the complete opposite of what I am doing so already this sounds like it will work.  On all the reading I did on working with a prosumer machine frothing they never explained it the way you have.  I will certainly try to do it this way.

Yes ... I have already tried numerous tips on the Tea ... I have 5 to date (this includes the tip that came with the machine).  Actually the best one that I've found was custom made for me from a guy on CG ... he actually made me 2 ... a single and double holed tip.  I thought the single would work better but found that his 2 small holed tip is now the best tip that I own.

Between your post here and John F's PM I think I will try this new strategy out on my next cappuccino go around.  I hope you don't mind if I send more questions your way if I find I have a problem getting this to work.

Thanks

 :)
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lp, 7-Ski

Offline John F

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Re: The Carezza compendium
« Reply #32 on: March 19, 2009, 09:01:01 PM »
Between your post here and John F's PM

Everything I just told you I took from him and put in my own words is all......

I think you are going to nail the microfoam on the Tea soon and when you do you will wonder how the unobstructed Carezza wand was working at all.  :-X
"At no point should you be in condition white unless you are in your bed sleeping with your doors locked."

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Offline mp

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Re: The Carezza compendium
« Reply #33 on: March 19, 2009, 09:05:40 PM »
Everything I just told you I took from him and put in my own words is all......

I think you are going to nail the microfoam on the Tea soon and when you do you will wonder how the unobstructed Carezza wand was working at all.  :-X

Yeah ... its funny ... the introductory machines proved a piece of cake to produce micro foam ... I never really nailed it on a constistent basis on the Tea.  The Tea can blow steam like a steam engine compared to the other two ... but in the hands of a clueless operator it is just a machine that blows steam.

Well ... live and learn.

 :)
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Offline staylor

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Re: The Carezza compendium
« Reply #34 on: March 19, 2009, 09:07:47 PM »
Well even though I have a pretty capable photo rig it's my skills with it that's the limitation rather than the camera. I'm not too happy about the quality of the images I put up but I guess they will serve the purpose.

What threw me off about how you are describing your steaming is this... Typically when a person goes to steam microfoam there is an initial few seconds where the air bubbles are introduced into the milk by skimming the surface of the milk. As I discussed this with John, I showed him that I might only surface surf for 3secs or maybe 4secs depending on what I am trying to do (and depending on the age of the milk, type, planetary alignment, etc). Once the initial 3sec air bubbles exist it then requires the fractioning of those big bubbles (and by big I mean small bubbles, but they are massive compared to the end result micro-bubbles). The remainder of your time is spent manipulating the milk to destroy the bubbles into smaller and smaller and smaller sized bubbles. That requires you to sink the wand into the jug and get on to bubble-smashing. Now remember, I'm not talking about the big sea foam bubbles that you see EVERYWHERE, I'm talking about small bubbles that then get smashed into super-small bubbles.

Watching the Carrezza video posted by Tex and talking with John, the Carrezza wand is introducing house-sized bubbles into the milk. Uhmmmm, not good. The small bubbles I'm talking about are only introduced in the first 2-3secs from then on it should be a no-air scenario.

Huh? No air? Well, about 4 or 5yrs ago there was a a magical point in the espresso world where good baristas, observant home espresso drinkers and passionate geeks started talking about the abilities (or more importantly the non-abilities) of certain wands, wand tips, boilers, dry steam, wet steam, phony air introduction systems, etc. Out of that came an understanding that simple because you hold a steam wand in your hand doesn't make it magically capable of producing microfoam. Speaking of the Brewtus II that I use, the Brewtus Users Forum went through a period of time where at least five steam tips were compared, one of them being the stock tip that came with the machine (horrendous) and one of them being the tip I bought after-market (awesome). So again, because it's called an espresso machine doesn't guarantee any ability to produce microfoam - so your inability to punch out good foam may not have anything to do with you, it could simply be a bad steam tip.

Following me so far?

Maybe check to see if there is mention on Google about Isomac Tea steam tips - suck/no suck?

Hey Shaun ... yes I get what you are saying.  I never heard an analogy like that for frothing milk but my results with the Tea ll speak for themselves ... in other words this sounds like the complete opposite of what I am doing so already this sounds like it will work.  On all the reading I did on working with a prosumer machine frothing they never explained it the way you have.  I will certainly try to do it this way.

Yes ... I have already tried numerous tips on the Tea ... I have 5 to date (this includes the tip that came with the machine).  Actually the best one that I've found was custom made for me from a guy on CG ... he actually made me 2 ... a single and double holed tip.  I thought the single would work better but found that his 2 small holed tip is now the best tip that I own.

Between your post here and John F's PM I think I will try this new strategy out on my next cappuccino go around.  I hope you don't mind if I send more questions your way if I find I have a problem getting this to work.

Thanks

 :)

Bummer, you already have a collection of tips, you should put them in the tip jar - groan. ;-)

I hope it works out for you, just try to understretch the milk initially, literally. Put the tip on the surface and only stretch the milk for like 2-3 secs, and even though you "know" that is a ridiculously short period of time and you "know" it didn't stretch enough... just go with it and get on with sinking that wand and smashing those bubbles. If the milk isn't capable of pouring art then start again and add another second of stretch to the initial phase and then sink the wand in and begin the bubble-smash again, if that pour didn't work then add another 1sec of strech, etc.

You'll get it. But if you have questions, fire away.

Offline mp

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Re: The Carezza compendium
« Reply #35 on: March 19, 2009, 09:15:26 PM »
Bummer, you already have a collection of tips, you should put them in the tip jar - groan. ;-)

I hope it works out for you, just try to understretch the milk initially, literally. Put the tip on the surface and only stretch the milk for like 2-3 secs, and even though you "know" that is a ridiculously short period of time and you "know" it didn't stretch enough... just go with it and get on with sinking that wand and smashing those bubbles. If the milk isn't capable of pouring art then start again and add another second of stretch to the initial phase and then sink the wand in and begin the bubble-smash again, if that pour didn't work then add another 1sec of strech, etc.

You'll get it. But if you have questions, fire away.

Actually ... I do have a question for you.  when you set the pressure to steam ... how far past the steam turn on point do you turn the knob? 

I find that if I put to much oomph into the steam output it severely shortens the time you can have the tip in the milk before the milk over heats.  Do you find that too or am I off in left field on this one?

Thanks
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lp, 7-Ski

thejavaman

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Re: The Carezza compendium
« Reply #36 on: March 21, 2009, 07:03:10 AM »
So someone would need to manually move the o-ring to this spot?

Yes.

Remove the sleeve and slide the o-ring to this placement...

I tried this out this morning and it worked like a charm for me too.  Hard to believe that just a simple movement of the o-ring would make such a difference.  I wonder why Gaggia doesn't ship them out like that to begin with? 

Offline John F

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Re: The Carezza compendium
« Reply #37 on: March 21, 2009, 07:27:56 AM »
I wonder why Gaggia doesn't ship them out like that to begin with? 

They are trying to make a crutch like a pressurized PF crema enhancer.

Now when you see just how small of an amount of air you introduce for good microfoam and you look at that vid of the wide open wand it's a real eye opener.



 
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Offline mp

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Re: The Carezza compendium
« Reply #38 on: March 21, 2009, 07:34:09 AM »
Espresso and cappuccino day today.  I pulled three cappuccinos and here are the results:

- Shot 1 in larger container ... matched best results I've gotten on Isomac
- Shot 2 in smaller container ... concentrated too much on technique and pulled out too fast ... watery and milk was not even hot
- Shot 3 in larger container ... this was a shot similar to what I would get with the lesser machines in micro foam ... the volume went to over double and lots of top foam to play with for latte art (finally)

Thank you to staylor and John F.

 ;D

(I drank way too much coffee and milk)

 :-X
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Tex

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Re: The Carezza compendium
« Reply #39 on: March 21, 2009, 09:26:29 AM »
I wonder why Gaggia doesn't ship them out like that to begin with? 

They are trying to make a crutch like a pressurized PF crema enhancer.

Now when you see just how small of an amount of air you introduce for good microfoam and you look at that vid of the wide open wand it's a real eye opener.

The real eye-opener is to compare the two videos - one with a stock Gaggia wand and the other with a Silvia wand. HUGE difference in the air volume! The only air being introduced with the Silvia wand is in the steam itself.

yorel23

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Re: The Carezza compendium
« Reply #40 on: March 21, 2009, 09:29:41 AM »
So, the Silvia wand would be a better wand for making microfoam?  How hard is it to retrofit the Gaggia wand to the Silvia wand?  Plug and play, or more than that?
« Last Edit: March 21, 2009, 09:52:59 AM by yorel23 »

Tex

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Re: The Carezza compendium
« Reply #41 on: March 21, 2009, 09:52:58 AM »
So, the Silvia wand would be a better wand for making microfoam? 

I don't make micro-foam, too unctuous for my taste (reminds me of a milkshake that's too thin?). But the Silvia wand does a better job of controlling the amount of air introduced than the stock Gaggia device, so it should work better for that purpose.

Offline John F

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Re: The Carezza compendium
« Reply #42 on: March 21, 2009, 11:10:23 AM »
So, the Silvia wand would be a better wand for making microfoam?  How hard is it to retrofit the Gaggia wand to the Silvia wand?  Plug and play, or more than that?

I can't say how much better one is than the other but I can tell you it takes 10 seconds to move the o-ring but to swap to the Silvia you are going to have to open up the machine.

The difference in the two is going to be more about manipulation of the bubbles so some of that is going to come down to individual techniques in addition to the design differences. All things considered I'm guessing the Silvia wand is better but how much and to what extent the differences are exploited are key in deciding what to do.

 
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Lee Morrison

Tex

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Re: The Carezza compendium
« Reply #43 on: March 21, 2009, 11:50:40 AM »
I can't say how much better one is than the other but I can tell you it takes 10 seconds to move the o-ring but to swap to the Silvia you are going to have to open up the machine.

The Silvia wand mod is external only. There is nothing involved that takes more than an adjustable wrench and maybe a bit of sandpaper. Piece of cake!

Offline John F

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Re: The Carezza compendium
« Reply #44 on: March 21, 2009, 11:55:39 AM »
The Silvia wand mod is external only. There is nothing involved that takes more than an adjustable wrench and maybe a bit of sandpaper. Piece of cake!

Cool, you might generate some Silvia wand sales with this one..I am shopping in another tab for one right now.  ;)

How does it come out?

Does removing those Allen bolts allow the wand connection to drop down outside the jacket?

I'm guessing that nut visible on the steam wand needs to come off but it is up inside the jacket so I can't figure how to put a wrench on it without opening up the machine.

I know you are the Gaggia guy so I defer to your expertise...how do we get this thing out without opening up the machine?

 
« Last Edit: March 21, 2009, 01:11:23 PM by John F »
"At no point should you be in condition white unless you are in your bed sleeping with your doors locked."

Lee Morrison