Extraction question ...

[mp]

Ok ... so this morning a pulled the first espresso shot that I've pulled in a couple of weeks since being out west.  The first shot seemed that I over stuffed the portafilter.  The drip was unbearably slow ... 50 seconds plus for a ristretto.  The second shot I know I had not over stuffed the portafilter and again a 50 second plus shot.  Try number three I put roughly 21 or 22 grams in the double basket and it flowed freely.

What up?  I hardly ever touch the grind setting on La Cimbali grinder anymore as I believe in not screwing with something that works.  Is the grind all of a sudden too fine for the extraction?  Could the pump be on its way out?

Any ideas?

 

(Wishing for some ideas in Mississauga, Ontario)

[Stubbie]

must

adjust

grind

Changes in humidity and bean aging will affect your shot time dramatically.

-Stubbie

[mp]

Thank you for that Stubbie ... will start playing with that on my next shots.

 :wave:

[aspenwilde]

I've always understood that to pull shots with consistency  *The Operator* need to be consistent with as many of the parameters in the process as possible.

Variables *not* under your control at all:
- ambient temperature
- humidity
- individual bean variation

Variables somewhat under your control:
- Water/Machine Temp (PID?)
- Water pressure/quality (filtered?)

Variables totally under your control:
- The overall Grind Quality/Type
- Tamp Pressure
- Machine cleanliness

The parameter you have the MOST control over, Overall Grind Quality/Type, is the only parameter you should be changing to keep up with the other variables you have no  or little control over.

#1. All other things being equal, assume that the only thing that is really changing on a hourly/daily basis is the Humidty, AmbientTemp and Bean type/quality.

#2. Tamp pressure **must** be the consistent factor, get out your scale and work on that 30lb tamp pressure consistency so that you can nail it each time without even thinking about it, this is the primary factor in consistency!

#3. Use Grind Quality ONLY to make minor adjustments to your shots to find that perfect flow rate. If you start adjusting too many parameters, such as tamp pressure, temp, grind etc all at once you will most likely have a hard time finding any sort of consitency.

Basically, what you need to do is try keep all variables as constant as possible, and keep your machine clean, clean clean!

This is not a professional assessment, just my $.02 and experience with trying to pull consistent shots! I hope it helps!

me

[Tex]

I've always understood that to pull shots with consistency  *The Operator* need to be consistent with as many of the parameters in the process as possible.

Variables *not* under your control at all:
- ambient temperature
- humidity
- individual bean variation

Variables somewhat under your control:
- Water/Machine Temp (PID?)
- Water pressure/quality (filtered?)

Variables totally under your control:
- The overall Grind Quality/Type
- Tamp Pressure
- Machine cleanliness

The parameter you have the MOST control over, Overall Grind Quality/Type, is the only parameter you should be changing to keep up with the other variables you have no  or little control over.

#1. All other things being equal, assume that the only thing that is really changing on a hourly/daily basis is the Humidty, AmbientTemp and Bean type/quality.

#2. Tamp pressure **must** be the consistent factor, get out your scale and work on that 30lb tamp pressure consistency so that you can nail it each time without even thinking about it, this is the primary factor in consistency!

#3. Use Grind Quality ONLY to make minor adjustments to your shots to find that perfect flow rate. If you start adjusting too many parameters, such as tamp pressure, temp, grind etc all at once you will most likely have a hard time finding any sort of consitency.

Basically, what you need to do is try keep all variables as constant as possible, and keep your machine clean, clean clean!

This is not a professional assessment, just my $.02 and experience with trying to pull consistent shots! I hope it helps!

me

+1

[Warrior372]

Are you using a double or triple basket? I tend to stick around 16 grams for a double, although I have read of some
people putting closer to 20.

[Tex]

Are you using a double or triple basket? I tend to stick around 16 grams for a double, although I have read of some
people putting closer to 20.

I haven't weighed a shot in years. I overfill the filter basket slightly, tap it lightly at 180° intervals, sweep off the excess, tamp very lightly (ideally the top edge of the tamper will be level with the filter edge), spin the tamper once, and that's it; a perfect shot's ready to be pulled.

If I'm doing only one shot I will time the grind at 10 seconds - this fills the basket and wastes ~1 or 2  beans. This all is dependent on a properly dialed in espresso grinder.

[staylor]

MP, some good advice in the thread, so re-read it a couple of times, however there is some advice I don't full agree with.

Myself, I constantly play grind against dose weight (nearly every single shot). That means I adjust my grind and I adjust the amount of beans going in to the PF. Why? One thing you can be sure of with coffee, it gets a day older every day and that is enough for you to have to adjust something if you want to 'control' the coffee.

Specific to espresso, humidity changes by the hour (or minute) depending on what's going on in your kitchen/house will impact your shot. If you want to 'control' the coffee you have to adjust for humidity.

Now on to the key point of my post, rather than control the coffee, try to learn the coffee. To learn it you have to play the variables against each other, one at a time initially until you get a feel for what a specific adjustment does to that specific batch. Then, as you become more comfortable (and this might take months or years) you can adjust two or more variables at a time in order to move the coffee in a direction you want to, or see where IT takes YOU.

Personally, I'm more than comfortable simultaneously adjusting grind, dose weight, temp, shot time and resulting volume on a shot to shot basis. More commonly, I will just modify dose weight and the resulting volume (killing the shot when it lets me know it should be stopped). Because that last sentence was super important, I'll say it again, in a different way - my typical default one variable move will be to only modify the amount of grind ending up in the PF. The best advice I can give you today is... break out a gram scale and start weighing your beans on a one shot basis, do it for the next month, you will learn a lot. For this exercise you will want to follow this example... put a little cup on your gram scale, tare it out to zero, put in 18gms of beans, pour those beans into an empty grinder, complete the grind, dose into PF, pull the shot. Leave the grind alone and for the next shot put 17gms into the PF. Etc. Etc. Etc. Each shot gets an individually weighed bean amount for the next month.

During the next month you will learn that eyeballing an amount of ground coffee in a PF isn't the best approach, different beans weigh and distribute differently. Throw the different grind settings into the fray and you will quickly realize that eyeballing isn't a best practice and that's all I will say on that.

Within a month you will be able to connect a few dots and develop some trends.

FWIW.

While you are reading this, you might as well enjoy the shot I pulled an hour ago, from a 10 day old blend(and yes it required dose adjustment).  ;-)

[aspenwilde]

Staylor - great info - My earlier post may have been a bit of an oversimplification of the process , as I too adjust dose and time against grind etc, change up the little things to try to get the shot to where I need it.

My basic point is: Try not making too many adjustments at once, and be aware of all of the variables that can impact your shot. I still feel that consistent tamp pressure must be obtainted in order to pull consistent shots, and is something that must be acheived early in your "career".

That said, there are days when I can't seem to get a decent shot from some beans, wait a couple of days and they seem to come around.

I like your focus on weighing out the beans consistently, I will try to incorporate that into my regimen.

Beautiful rosette, BTW.

[staylor]

Staylor - great info - My earlier post may have been a bit of an oversimplification of the process , as I too adjust dose and time against grind etc, change up the little things to try to get the shot to where I need it.

My basic point is: Try not making too many adjustments at once, and be aware of all of the variables that can impact your shot. I still feel that consistent tamp pressure must be obtainted in order to pull consistent shots, and is something that must be acheived early in your "career".

That said, there are days when I can't seem to get a decent shot from some beans, wait a couple of days and they seem to come around.

I like your focus on weighing out the beans consistently, I will try to incorporate that into my regimen.

Beautiful rosette, BTW.

I thought your post was good. It outlined a lot of things to consider, and we both agree that keeping things simple by adjusting one thing at a time is the way to go (most of the time, for most people). We also agree on chasing a consistent tamping routine, though I believe a precise/quality approach to distribution of grinds in the PF is more important that tamp... but I digress.

Weighing out the beans on a consistent basis is something I think everyone should revisit from time to time, even the most seasoned pro. Going back to the fundamentals has a way of illuminating things we missed in the past or opens the door to other newer discoveries. I don't weigh for every shot, more often than not I typically 'feel my way' with the coffee. My friend JohnF (who has drank hundreds of my shots, both good and bad) would probably have an opinion on all of this and might have a different angle on my approach to things. My way isn't always the right way for everyone and that's why I try to be careful with generalizations.

Get used to the boring latte art/coffee images, I usually post them up every day or so as I like photography and coffee as a combination. The benefit to posting these kind of images up is to let everyone know that if I can do it, anyone can - plus it hopefully drives John to the brink of madness knowing I'm not going to relent until he gets his butt up here to Canada for a visit, hahaha!

[mp]

plus it hopefully drives John to the brink of madness

+1

 

But only because they look so good.

 

[mp]

Thank you everyone for your input.  You know ... just when you figure you should know a thing or two about pulling shots as you've been doing it for over 3 years you are humbled by a problem you never ran into before.  This is all good stuff here and a good wake up call to get back to the basics of the ritual.  Sometimes the most obvious thing that should come to mind becomes a stumbling block if faced with a situation that never happened before.  I will re-read everything here another couple of times and get busy and put it into practice ... 1 change at a time until my problem is solved.

Will keep you updated with the results.

Your input, as always, has been awesome!

 

[mp]

Update.

Ok ... I dialed the grind to a coarser grind.  I pulled a double ... it was better but filter still choked too much.  I adjusted again another revolution or two and better yet but still choke.  I made another couple of resolutions and we will see what happens tomorrow.

I can't believe how much courser it is requiring the grind now.

 

[peter]

How are your burrs?

[staylor]

Update.

Ok ... I dialed the grind to a coarser grind.  I pulled a double ... it was better but filter still choked too much.  I adjusted again another revolution or two and better yet but still choke.  I made another couple of resolutions and we will see what happens tomorrow.

I can't believe how much courser it is requiring the grind now.

 

Coarser grind as in visually coarser, or coarser as in the grinder setting - it's an important distinction.

If it's just grinder setting you are talking about, perhaps something shifted mechanically and you are now gradually adjusting your grind back to what it was previously. In other words, something shifted mechanically and is providing too tight of a grind and you are taking your time inching your way back to a correct grind setting.

If the coffee is visibly coarser than you normally would be grinding for espresso (let's say it's grinding huge boulder sized grounds), you could set that coffee aside, throw a blind PF into your grouphead and activate your pump to see how high the pressure gets (does it reach your normal pressure).