Green Coffee Buying Club
Coffee Discussion boards => Hardware & Equipment => Topic started by: peter on October 17, 2010, 06:20:33 PM
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Yikes. Friday morning I made my usual americano w/ 2 doubles with my 4-month old Vivaldi (which I love), left the machine on, and went to make a latte at noon. When I hit the double button to do a warm-up flush, nothing but the pre-infusion water. When I drew 3-4oz. from the hot water tap, that was fine, but then it began to refill the steam boiler and never did; the pump continually ran until it shut off and gave me the flashing boiler light alarm.
A little more detail... At idle, the manometer reads ~4bar. When I hit the double or single button, the pump runs, the manometer goes to its usual ~9.5bar, but almost immediately the 3 LEDs flash as when it is choked or back-flushing. This is with the steam boiler off; if I turn that on, it immediately tries to refill, but can't.
The first thing I checked was the incoming water. Right after the charcoal filter and softening cartridge, there is good pressure and flow. Tried unplugging the machine, thinking something may have to reset, nada.
I called Chris' which is where I bought this last May. Their tech asked a bunch of questions, and at first thought it might be the screen going into the fill valve. But then realizing the group had no water coming from it, he backed up on the water path and thought it might be the piston, which is part #280 on page 12 here;
http://s1cafe.com/s1v2/V2%20Manuals/RICAMBI%20S1%20NEW.pdf (http://s1cafe.com/s1v2/V2%20Manuals/RICAMBI%20S1%20NEW.pdf)
So I took off the front, back and right side panels, and all the fittings on that valve body and the expansion valve to get at that piston. No signs of any mineral deposits or shavings, or any obstruction. Put everything back together, tested it, same symptoms.
The best thing about this fiasco is that I now understand the path of water, from the inlet to the pump, to the tee and then either to the flowmeter to the group boiler, or the fill valve to the steam boiler. There's still more about the innards that I don't know, but I know a thousand times more now than I did this morning.
By that time Chris' was closing, and now we will continue over-the-phone troubleshooting on Monday.
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Peter ... I am certainly no expert on Schotzie ... however in simplistic terms ... it sounds as if the water path is being blocked somewhere along the line.
:-X
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Peter ... I am certainly no expert on Schotzie ... however in simplistic terms ... it sounds as if the water path is being blocked somewhere along the line.
:-X
Yep, kidney stones.
B|Java
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Peter ... I am certainly no expert on Schotzie ... however in simplistic terms ... it sounds as if the water path is being blocked somewhere along the line.
:-X
Yep, kidney stones.
B|Java
At such a young age?
:o
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When I have a water flow problem, I start at the pump and disconnect the fittings one-by-one 'til I find the stoppage. Tedious, but 100% effective! 8)
It's very unlikely that your new machine is plugged since you're filtering the water. Most likely a solenoid valve coil shorted out. Check you refill solenoid coil: http://www.appliance411.com/faq/test-water-valve.shtml (http://www.appliance411.com/faq/test-water-valve.shtml)
edited: Your sediment filter is after the softener in the water path, isn't it?
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Sucks!
I'd be laying on the floor trying to keep my heart rate down if I were in your spot.
I hope you sort it out soon brother...I feel for ya.
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When I have a water flow problem, I start at the pump and disconnect the fittings one-by-one 'til I find the stoppage. Tedious, but 100% effective! 8)
It's very unlikely that your new machine is plugged since you're filtering the water. Most likely the coil shorted out. Check you refill solenoid coil: [url]http://www.appliance411.com/faq/test-water-valve.shtml[/url] ([url]http://www.appliance411.com/faq/test-water-valve.shtml[/url])
I suspect that's what the tech will be suggesting tomorrow, to start at the pump and work up the chain. If that's the route to take, I'm going to get a friend to help; the filters and shut-off are in the basement, so can't undo a fitting, go downstairs to open the shut-off and run up to see if there's flow.
The solenoid for the fill valve could be bad, but then it should still have water to the group. The tee that splits the flow off to the fill valve also sends water to the flow meter. I guess both sides of the flow could have had a malfunction, but you wouldn't think it'd happen at the same time.
I'm guessing there might some electronic snafu that is monkeying with the fill valve and the flow meter.
Here's a question for you... the only parts diagram I can find shows the manometer reading off the steam boiler. Mine has the dual manometer, and it reads group pressure off the group boiler, right? If it is reading 9bar at the group, wouldn't that mean that water/pressure is making its way from the pump all the way to the group boiler?
Sucks!
I'd be laying on the floor trying to keep my heart rate down if I were in your spot.
I hope you sort it out soon brother...I feel for ya.
Thanks. I'm trying to tell myself that I'm getting an education on espresso machines. Friday I was totally bummed out, yesterday not so much. Today, I'm realizing that if this is all I have to worry about my life is pretty good.
What sucks is having a nice machine and a week-old Compak K10 that I can't play with. I don't mind doing pourovers and vacpots all that much, but I have grown to appreciate good shots and am jonesing for one.
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What sucks is having a nice machine and a week-old Compak K10 that I can't play with. I don't mind doing pourovers and vacpots all that much, but I have grown to appreciate good shots and am jonesing for one.
If you like blonds I can give you plenty of those.
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When I have a water flow problem, I start at the pump and disconnect the fittings one-by-one 'til I find the stoppage. Tedious, but 100% effective! 8)
It's very unlikely that your new machine is plugged since you're filtering the water. Most likely the coil shorted out. Check you refill solenoid coil: [url]http://www.appliance411.com/faq/test-water-valve.shtml[/url] ([url]http://www.appliance411.com/faq/test-water-valve.shtml[/url])
I suspect that's what the tech will be suggesting tomorrow, to start at the pump and work up the chain. If that's the route to take, I'm going to get a friend to help; the filters and shut-off are in the basement, so can't undo a fitting, go downstairs to open the shut-off and run up to see if there's flow.
The solenoid for the fill valve could be bad, but then it should still have water to the group. The tee that splits the flow off to the fill valve also sends water to the flow meter. I guess both sides of the flow could have had a malfunction, but you wouldn't think it'd happen at the same time.
I'm guessing there might some electronic snafu that is monkeying with the fill valve and the flow meter.
Here's a question for you... the only parts diagram I can find shows the manometer reading off the steam boiler. Mine has the dual manometer, and it reads group pressure off the group boiler, right? If it is reading 9bar at the group, wouldn't that mean that water/pressure is making its way from the pump all the way to the group boiler?
I don't know exactly how your machine is plumbed, so this is just a guess OK?
Most machines have a tube running from the pump1 to the gauge, so what you're reading is actually pump pressure, not boiler or group pressure. If yours is like this, then it'd be expected that the gauge would read ~9bar whenever the pump's on.
One thing that'd be helpful is to get a diagram of your machine, not the older model. If you do get it, please post it here so I can download a copy.
1Or at some point near the split between the refill solenoid & the flow meter.
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If that's the route to take, I'm going to get a friend to help; the filters and shut-off are in the basement, so can't undo a fitting, go downstairs to open the shut-off and run up to see if there's flow.
Peter
May I suggest you go to a hardware store an get one of these and put it in line with your machine in the kitchen.... best if you can turn water off at the machine.
(http://aspw.co.uk/images/art290945.jpg)
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It's probably your boiler fill solenoid that is not opening. A key I think would be if hot water is returning to your tank or being diverted (if plumbed in) to the drain while at 9 bar. I am certainly not an expert but on my machine I believe a boiler fill after using the tap should run at about 3 bar.
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If that's the route to take, I'm going to get a friend to help; the filters and shut-off are in the basement, so can't undo a fitting, go downstairs to open the shut-off and run up to see if there's flow.
Peter
May I suggest you go to a hardware store an get one of these and put it in line with your machine in the kitchen.... best if you can turn water off at the machine.
+1
A shut off at the machine is a MUST HAVE item!
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If that's the route to take, I'm going to get a friend to help; the filters and shut-off are in the basement, so can't undo a fitting, go downstairs to open the shut-off and run up to see if there's flow.
Peter
May I suggest you go to a hardware store an get one of these and put it in line with your machine in the kitchen.... best if you can turn water off at the machine.
+1
A shut off at the machine is a MUST HAVE item!
OK. That won't be hard to do. A 1/4" line comes up from the basement and connects via a John Guest fitting to the braided steel line that goes to the machine. The meet under the cabinet the machine sits on, and that would be where I could put another shut-off valve; just cut that tube and install another John Guest shut-off.
Today I turned it on, just to see how it's acting up before I call Chris' again. Now the group seems to be working OK. I haven't pulled any shots, but it's pushing water through, first the 4 second pre-infusion and then the pump kicks in. Odd, how that's OK today, but not on Friday.
It's probably your boiler fill solenoid that is not opening. I key I think would be if hot water is returning to your tank or being diverted (if plumbed in) to the drain while at 9 bar. I am certainly not an expert but on my machine I believe a boiler fill after using the tap should run at about 3 bar.
I'll turn my focus to the fill valve now, and/or the screen just ahead of it.
If your gauge is showing 3 bar during a boiler refill, that should be what your line pressure is. I'll bet the gauge is reading 3 bar when the machine is idle too.
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Peter
I'm running off a water reservoir tank using a QM Anita HX machine and not plumbed in. My next machine will be the Vivaldi plumbed in at my espresso bar in our new home. I had a solenoid failure and I knew the symptoms by isolating the water returning to the tank during an attempted refill and noting that it was at 9 bar and very hot. When repaired and under normal conditions it was 3 or more precisely 3.3 bar. It should be pretty simple to diagnose and repair though its always a PIA to be without espresso.
GOOD LUCK!
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Thanks all. The drought is over and Schotzie is back together.
Other than the mystery ailment that kept water from the group, which somehow fixed itself over the weekend, the real problem was an improperly installed screen just ahead of the fill valve for the steam boiler. As soon as I opened up the port on the solenoid I could see the problem. It's not really a screen, but a sintered metal disc w/ a thin brass ring. It was wedged in there sideways and squished, leading me to believe it was a Friday afternoon after a long lunch of sausage and Sangria. The tech at Chris' said that the factory puts that screen in because they can't count on people using a filter upline, and that I can run w/o it.
This would've been a fairly easy fix and it would've been up and running Saturday a.m., if the group problem wouldn't have been there. To get at what they thought was the problem meant undoing a bunch of fittings and lines, and then dismantling the valve with the spring/piston. The headache there, apart from just getting the valve out is that the factory doesn't use teflon tape or thread compound; they use some sort of Locktite. It works, until you have to take it apart, that is. So a couple of fittings were leaking, and even though I got the screen in the fill valve square away easy enough I still had to take that valve out along with the expansion valve, and clean up the threads and redo that work from Friday.
I'm glad to have this first episode out of the way. Like people say, any espresso machine will need repair eventually, and now that I've cut my teeth on this repair the next one won't produce as much nervous anxiety. The older I get, the more stuff like this rocks my world for the first time through something. When I was younger I liked a challenge, now they seem to scare me.
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Thanks all. The drought is over and Schotzie is back together.
Other than the mystery ailment that kept water from the group, which somehow fixed itself over the weekend, the real problem was an improperly installed screen just ahead of the fill valve for the steam boiler. As soon as I opened up the port on the solenoid I could see the problem. It's not really a screen, but a sintered metal disc w/ a thin brass ring. It was wedged in there sideways and squished, leading me to believe it was a Friday afternoon after a long lunch of sausage and Sangria. The tech at Chris' said that the factory puts that screen in because they can't count on people using a filter upline, and that I can run w/o it.
This would've been a fairly easy fix and it would've been up and running Saturday a.m., if the group problem wouldn't have been there. To get at what they thought was the problem meant undoing a bunch of fittings and lines, and then dismantling the valve with the spring/piston. The headache there, apart from just getting the valve out is that the factory doesn't use teflon tape or thread compound; they use some sort of Locktite. It works, until you have to take it apart, that is. So a couple of fittings were leaking, and even though I got the screen in the fill valve square away easy enough I still had to take that valve out along with the expansion valve, and clean up the threads and redo that work from Friday.
I'm glad to have this first episode out of the way. Like people say, any espresso machine will need repair eventually, and now that I've cut my teeth on this repair the next one won't produce as much nervous anxiety. The older I get, the more stuff like this rocks my world for the first time through something. When I was younger I liked a challenge, now they seem to scare me.
You've just touched the tip of the iceberg. Keep the wrenches handy!
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I bet that nice looking cap produced by Schotzie doesn't scare you!
;D
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I bet that nice looking cap produced by Schotzie doesn't scare you!
;D
As an aside, it was made Vivace Dolce. I had read some good things about their blend, and when I saw they sold it in green form I bought 3#. This was my first attempt at roasting it (FC+), and have only had one shot and on latte. It'll take some more time with it before I can give it a thumbs up; might be brewing it too hot.
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If you like blonds I can give you plenty of those.
;D ;D
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Glad you were able to get up and running with only minor headaches.
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How long do you leave the machine on per day? Even if you use filtered water regular long periods where the machine is left on will dramatically spread up the scaling inside of the machine. Whenever I get a used machines I descale them first thing, and in 9/10 cases if the machine did not have water flowing through the group when I got the machine it does after the descale.
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In the summer it was off unless it was being used, or I expected to use it within a few hours. When it is on for extended periods of time, generally the steam boiler is off.
In the older machines you rehab, where do you think the main concern lies for scale issues?
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I bet that nice looking cap produced by Schotzie doesn't scare you!
;D
As an aside, it was made Vivace Dolce. I had read some good things about their blend, and when I saw they sold it in green form I bought 3#. This was my first attempt at roasting it (FC+), and have only had one shot and on latte. It'll take some more time with it before I can give it a thumbs up; might be brewing it too hot.
When are you pulling more shots with that mix?
???
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Today at 2:00. Can you come over?
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Every shop I talk to, the espresso machine stays on 24/7...
On that note, I've been looking at filter systems, and have been thinking about the Claris after reading about it on Home Barista. Having trouble finding a stocking dealer though. The systems Chris Coffee sells are probably more than sufficient and quite a bit cheaper I would imagine.
-Stubbie
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Today at 2:00. Can you come over?
If only I could.
;D
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Great to read how you got it together. I couldn't have done any of that stuff. Your latte art is coming together. It looks like a thermometer's mercury with fire coming out of it. Doesn't make sense but that's art.
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Every shop I talk to, the espresso machine stays on 24/7...
On that note, I've been looking at filter systems, and have been thinking about the Claris after reading about it on Home Barista. Having trouble finding a stocking dealer though. The systems Chris Coffee sells are probably more than sufficient and quite a bit cheaper I would imagine.
-Stubbie
I'll be using a potassium chloride water softener (http://www.mortonsalt.com/faqs/water_soft_faq.html#q22) for my rebuilt machine. Less of a health & environmental hazard than the salt ladened water put out by regular water softeners. It's easy enough to use in canister systems (http://www.1st-line.com/parts/other/inoxdep_water_softener.htm) but I'm having a hard time finding it in the replaceable cartridges.
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I use potassium chloride over salt for my whole house water softener. It works well and as you say is better for the environment.
:)
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I use potassium chloride over salt for my whole house water softener. It works well and as you say is better for the environment.
:)
Just out of curiosity, I asked the guys at 1st Line and EPNW if potassium chloride would work in the canisters they sell; to which they replied no, and using it would void the warranty.
Of course that's BS; any canister that uses salt can use potassium interchangeably. Yet another instance of someone not knowing the product's capabilities, and shooting from the lip rather than looking for the right answer.
Potassium is great for the heart and is often in short supply in our diets. It's also one of the key chemicals used to execute people. ;)
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I use potassium chloride over salt for my whole house water softener. It works well and as you say is better for the environment.
:)
Potassium is great for the heart and is often in short supply in our diets. It's also one of the key chemicals used to execute people. ;)
:o
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I use potassium chloride over salt for my whole house water softener. It works well and as you say is better for the environment.
:)
Potassium is great for the heart and is often in short supply in our diets. It's also one of the key chemicals used to execute people. ;)
:o
Go Dr Jack, go!
(http://www.infoaddict.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/04kevorkian-600.jpg)
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Dr. Jack Prevents Scale In Your Tubing... in the newspaper today.
Where does scale in an espresso machine come from? What can be done to minimize it? Does heat exacerbate scaling/does it matter if the machine is on or off?
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Dr. Jack Prevents Scale In Your Tubing... in the newspaper today.
Where does scale in an espresso machine come from? What can be done to minimize it? Does heat exacerbate scaling/does it matter if the machine is on or off?
Scaling comes from the minerals found in unfiltered water.
If you use distilled water you can totally eliminate it ... however ... you probably will not like the taste of your espresso.
I personally use R/O soft water combination and find that the scaling only needs to be dealt with every year or so. My alarm to descale is when the lever on my Isomac starts getting sticky.
As someone mentioned before it is the minerals in the water and the combination of the very hot water that causes the scale to materialize.
Hope that helps.
:)
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Dr. Jack Prevents Scale In Your Tubing... in the newspaper today.
Where does scale in an espresso machine come from? What can be done to minimize it? Does heat exacerbate scaling/does it matter if the machine is on or off?
Take this explanation with a grain of salt. (http://www.espressotec.com/store/pc/ic_descaling.asp) ;D
It does come with a nice psychedelic picture. 8)
(http://www.espressotec.com/store/pc/catalog/information/hard_water_US.gif)
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Every shop I talk to, the espresso machine stays on 24/7...
On that note, I've been looking at filter systems, and have been thinking about the Claris after reading about it on Home Barista. Having trouble finding a stocking dealer though. The systems Chris Coffee sells are probably more than sufficient and quite a bit cheaper I would imagine.
-Stubbie
If I owned a shop and was open 24/7 I would definitely have two different machines to run at opposite times. I would have two machines for 2 reasons. First is the ability to give one a rest. Secondly I would have the second as a backup incase the other needed to be repaired / have routine maintenance done on it. Although commercial machines can be on all of the time, having restored as many as I have, I can definitely tell you that most shop owners have no idea how to care for their machines! Most home owners fall into the same category.
One of the biggest mistakes with prosumer machines is that the consumer who has them thinks they can treat it like a commercial machine when the majority of the parts are worlds away form each other.
Peter, I soak all of the parts in Citric Acid. I would not say I see a lot more scale in one part of a machine versus another unless you are talking about machines from the 50s-60s. They typically have around an inch of scale sitting in the bottom of the boilers, with a hearty 1/6 or so of an inch caked around the rest of the boiler. If any decently sized piece breaks away it can easily go into your steam wand line, hot water wand line and even clog some of the grouphead lines.
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My plan for now is to check my water hardness, after the cartridge and before the machine, after six months and most likely descale after a year. Then I'll be able to figure a timetable after that.
And you're convinced that leaving a machine on will increase the amount of scale build up?
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Every shop I talk to, the espresso machine stays on 24/7...
On that note, I've been looking at filter systems, and have been thinking about the Claris after reading about it on Home Barista. Having trouble finding a stocking dealer though. The systems Chris Coffee sells are probably more than sufficient and quite a bit cheaper I would imagine.
-Stubbie
If I owned a shop and was open 24/7 I would definitely have two different machines to run at opposite times. I would have two machines for 2 reasons. First is the ability to give one a rest. Secondly I would have the second as a backup incase the other needed to be repaired / have routine maintenance done on it. Although commercial machines can be on all of the time, having restored as many as I have, I can definitely tell you that most shop owners have no idea how to care for their machines! Most home owners fall into the same category.
One of the biggest mistakes with prosumer machines is that the consumer who has them thinks they can treat it like a commercial machine when the majority of the parts are worlds away form each other.
Peter, I soak all of the parts in Citric Acid. I would not say I see a lot more scale in one part of a machine versus another unless you are talking about machines from the 50s-60s. They typically have around an inch of scale sitting in the bottom of the boilers, with a hearty 1/6 or so of an inch caked around the rest of the boiler. If any decently sized piece breaks away it can easily go into your steam wand line, hot water wand line and even clog some of the grouphead lines.
Take my word for it, they don't get tired and need no rest periods. ;) In a commercial environment a backup machine is a must. At home I can get by with a vac pot 'til I get the machine working.
The scale you describe is common to used machines I've seen too. I wonder sometimes what the engines of these guys cars look like?
As for cleaning, I use this rule of thumb, 1) if it only touches water, give it a hot citric acid bath, 2) if it touches coffee, 1st give it a strong & hot detergent bath to remove the coffee oils and then give it a hot citric acid bath.
Scale is usually first detectable in the group, especially in the gicleur inside the group - techs find them plugged up and rather than cleaning or replacing them they just leave them out. Trust me, even if you have the world's best filtration, sooner or later scale will build up in your machine. Commercial owners must take it upon themselves to maintain their machine to keep it working. That means descaling, back flushing, partial disassembly to get at the more problematic parts, and having the machine checked by a qualified tech at least every year. Private owners should have their machines checked annually or learn to disassemble & repair the machines themselves (the machines are super-simple to work on).
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My plan for now is to check my water hardness, after the cartridge and before the machine, after six months and most likely descale after a year. Then I'll be able to figure a timetable after that.
And you're convinced that leaving a machine on will increase the amount of scale build up?
Scale build up is related to water hardness and contact between metal and water. And once a year is a bit long between descalings, even with soft water. Since it's so simple to do I do mine on a quarterly schedule.
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Where does scale in an espresso machine come from?
~~~Calcium, mostly in my area, but there are other heavy metals in our water
[/quote]
What can be done to minimize it?
[/quote]
~~~my stradegy with the pourover Salvatore One Black I had was to filter my own well water by passing it through a small RO system that would filter about 15-20 gallons/day. I routed this filtered water (essentially 0 PPM hardness after) through a canister filled with Chris Coffee's Carbon Calcite cartridge so it would place the hardness level of the water at 50 PPM, verified with a water hardness test strip. I collected this water in a 2.5 gallon water bottle then dispensed into seperate 1 gallon bottles
When I get my Rimini espresso machine project to the point I need water for it, I think I'm going to use this same water but in a 5 gallon water bottle using a Flo-Jet pump for pressure. I bought the Flo-Jet pump long ago for testing purposes. It will be awkward handling 5 gallon bottles of water, but at least I will know what is and isn't in my water
[/quote]
Does heat exacerbate scaling/does it matter if the machine is on or off?
[/quote]
~~~It's my understanding if you flush your boiler using the hot water tap, purging a few cups of water through it weekly, that will at least garuntee you have fresh water in your boiler, depending on capacity how much and often you should flush but I don't see how hot water kept under pressure would allow the hardness levels to climb. I say flush your boiler to keep the water fresh and moving
Remember too Peter, you are pulling shots for yourself, not a lunch crowd 7 days a week. The amount of water going through your machine will be miniscule compared to commercial operations
Jake
Reddick Fla.
If he's got golf clubs in his truck or a camper in his driveway, I don't hire him.
--Lou Holtz, football coach
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To get those quotes to work you can exclude the slash on the first one. And you only need one extra line break between lines to save scrolling.
Does heat exacerbate scaling/does it matter if the machine is on or off?
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To get those quotes to work you can exclude the slash on the first one. And you only need one extra line break between lines to save scrolling.
Does heat exacerbate scaling/does it matter if the machine is on or off?
~~~Thanks Jeffo, Sounds a little too techy for me to comprehend, but maybe that's why I'm using HX to pull my shots, instead of DB or more advanced machine?=:-)
Jake
Reddick Fla.
You take the blue pill and the story ends. You wake in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill and you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes. Remember -- all I am offering is the truth, nothing more.:Morpheus
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To get those quotes to work you can exclude the slash on the first one. And you only need one extra line break between lines to save scrolling.
Does heat exacerbate scaling/does it matter if the machine is on or off?
~~~Thanks Jeffo, Sounds a little too techy for me to comprehend, but maybe that's why I'm using HX to pull my shots, instead of DB or more advanced machine?=:-)
Jake
Reddick Fla.
You take the blue pill and the story ends. You wake in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill and you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes. Remember -- all I am offering is the truth, nothing more.:Morpheus
I should have explained that better.
Instead of
[ / quote ]
Blah blah blah
[ / quote ]
You need to eliminate the slash on the first one. Spaces are inserted here so that you can see it without it actually activating
[ quote ]
Blah blah blah
[ / quote ]
Which without spaces would be:
Blah blah blah
The final slash 'closes' the code and let's it know that it's done. If you put a slash in the first one it messes it up. Computers aren't that smart.
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The final slash 'closes' the code and let's it know that it's done. If you put a slash in the first one it messes it up. Computers aren't that smart.
Their is a need to correct spelling but I won't because people are probably getting tired of it.
Ouch. Jeff, you are slipping, budd.
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Here is what the actual code would look like without spaces (Jeffo, you can insert the actual code by using the "insert code" button) (http://www.greencoffeebuyingclub.com/Themes/default/images/bbc/code.gif) .
[quote]
Blah blah blah
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or to make it easy highlinght the text you want to quote, in your reply and press the "insert quote" button (http://www.greencoffeebuyingclub.com/Themes/default/images/bbc/quote.gif)
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I run commercial boilers at work, the steam that comes out is almost pure. The dissolved solids are left in the boiler, this causes scale. So I would guess on a espresso machine the more you steam milk the more problems you will have with scale. In a boiler you exchange water every day to keep the concentrations down. In a HX machine I would guess if you never do "FRU FRU" the water would stay clean in the boiler longer.
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I run commercial boilers at work, the steam that comes out is almost pure. The dissolved solids are left in the boiler, this causes scale. So I would guess on a espresso machine the more you steam milk the more problems you will have with scale. In a boiler you exchange water every day to keep the concentrations down. In a HX machine I would guess if you never do "FRU FRU" the water would stay clean in the boiler longer.
Commercial machines with hot water wands pull the hot water from the steam boiler (True for HX & double boilers that I've seen anyways). I'd say that pulling hot water for Americanos and tea would keep the boiler flushed out pretty well.
Of course, a lot of coffee shops have hot water dispensers on their coffee makers, and pull their hot water there - in this instance the boiler water needs to be flushed regularly.
And that's frou-frou! ;D
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Commercial machines with hot water wands pull the hot water from the steam boiler (True for HX & double boilers that I've seen anyways). I'd say that pulling hot water for Americanos and tea would keep the boiler flushed out pretty well.
Reading up on the S1cafe forum, I see the wisdom in simply draining the steam boiler from the cap on the bottom every month or two. And probably doing a descaling every six months, based on pics of heating elements used in similar frequency and water hardness to mine.
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Reading up on the S1cafe forum, I see the wisdom in simply draining the steam boiler from the cap on the bottom every month or two. And probably doing a descaling every six months, based on pics of heating elements used in similar frequency and water hardness to mine.
Same thing the plumber suggests on the hot water heater but I will confess that I did it once.
34 years ago.
I descale the Silvia quarterly.
B|Java
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To get those quotes to work you can exclude the slash on the first one. And you only need one extra line break between lines to save scrolling.
Does heat exacerbate scaling/does it matter if the machine is on or off?
~~~Thanks Jeffo, Sounds a little too techy for me to comprehend, but maybe that's why I'm using HX to pull my shots, instead of DB or more advanced machine?=:-)
Jake
Reddick Fla.
You take the blue pill and the story ends. You wake in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill and you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes. Remember -- all I am offering is the truth, nothing more.:Morpheus
I should have explained that better.
Instead of
[ / quote ]
Blah blah blah
[ / quote ]
You need to eliminate the slash on the first one. Spaces are inserted here so that you can see it without it actually activating
[ quote ]
Blah blah blah
[ / quote ]
Which without spaces would be:
Blah blah blah
The final slash 'closes' the code and let's it know that it's done. If you put a slash in the first one it messes it up. Computers aren't that smart.
~~~That's a better explanation Jeffo, thanks!
Jake
Reddick Fla.
"There's no such thing as bad weather, just innapropriate gear chioce"
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I run commercial boilers at work, the steam that comes out is almost pure. The dissolved solids are left in the boiler, this causes scale. So I would guess on a espresso machine the more you steam milk the more problems you will have with scale. In a boiler you exchange water every day to keep the concentrations down. In a HX machine I would guess if you never do "FRU FRU" the water would stay clean in the boiler longer.
~~~I believe there are empirical ideal water hardness levels one should stay at and below (in an HX boiler) to avoid calcium build up in the first place. it's my understanding 75 PPM is the upper threshold. Enough calcium there (@ 75 PPM) to provide taste (hardness). My espresso tasted well at 50 PPM, using the Salvatore One Black HX machine I had
If one decided to use higher concentrations of calcium in their water, all is well, so long as you keep the machine on a regularly scheduled descaling program but if you want to avoid having to frequently descale, use lower concentrations of calcium in your suppy water. That will be my stradegy with my upcoming Rimini project
Jake
Reddick Fla.
The Low-Self-Esteem Support Group will meet in the chapel Thursday at 7 PM...
Please use the back door.
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The final slash 'closes' the code and let's it know that it's done. If you put a slash in the first one it messes it up. Computers aren't that smart.
Their is a need to correct spelling but I won't because people are probably getting tired of it.
Ouch. Jeff, you are slipping, budd.
Woops good catch on the first one. And I'm not one to overuse apostrophes. Second was intentional of course.
I'm always glad to be corrected. But I think you need to be a little more creative in razzing me when I do make a mistake (witch will bee a long weight).
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I did my first descaling on my VBM double boiler after running Brita through it for half a year (I was away for 3 months, during which it rested). I found very little gunk coming out of the coffee boiler, and small brown flecks from the steam boiler. I usually run the steam boiler empty through the hot water tap once or twice a week to make tea. This makes me think that Brita filtered water is mighty soft. I suppose I could try using straight tap water.
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I'm curious about the running empty of your steam boiler. I didn't think a machine would let you do that because of where the fill sensor is and how they don't want a heating element running without water in the boiler.
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I'm curious about the running empty of your steam boiler. I didn't think a machine would let you do that because of where the fill sensor is and how they don't want a heating element running without water in the boiler.
Poor wording. :-\ I draw as much water as will come blowing out steaming hot (~400ml of the 1,700ml capacity). I end up replacing the boiler contents in about a week or two.
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I'm curious about the running empty of your steam boiler. I didn't think a machine would let you do that because of where the fill sensor is and how they don't want a heating element running without water in the boiler.
!) Remove the lead to the fill sensor and ground the lead.
2) Bring the boiler to temp, shut it off, and draw water from the wand.
3) Repeat #2 until boiler is empty(ish).
Descaling HX espresso machines (pretty much the same for any boiler type). (http://home.earthlink.net/~r_harmon/descaling%20a%20HX%20machine.htm)
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Wouldn't that mean that at the end of the procedure you'd be running the heating element without it being submerged in water?
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Wouldn't that mean that at the end of the procedure you'd be running the heating element without it being submerged in water?
This was written for Bunn ES-1A machines, which has the element very low in the boiler. The water outlet is mounted a bit higher than the element, so the element should never be exposed (I suppose you COULD steam out the rest of the water, but that would be an act of extreme stupidity, and you can't design anything to protect against stupid).
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I saw some pics on another forum of the steam boiler element of a Vivaldi after 6 months of use, somewhat heavier use than mine. Based on that and the softness of my treated water, I'm pretty sure I can go a year. And if it's only an annual thing, it won't kill me to take the boiler completely out and clean it and the element properly. I'll have the boiler out and empty soon to insulate it, and will see how it looks after 8 or so months.
Then, as long as I'm having that much fun, I'll open the group boiler up too. But that boiler is smaller and the water is exchanged so much more frequently that I doubt there'll be any real need to do anything with it.
Noob qualifier; any and all the above is open for pot-shots.
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I saw some pics on another forum of the steam boiler element of a Vivaldi after 6 months of use, somewhat heavier use than mine. Based on that and the softness of my treated water, I'm pretty sure I can go a year. And if it's only an annual thing, it won't kill me to take the boiler completely out and clean it and the element properly. I'll have the boiler out and empty soon to insulate it, and will see how it looks after 8 or so months.
Then, as long as I'm having that much fun, I'll open the group boiler up too. But that boiler is smaller and the water is exchanged so much more frequently that I doubt there'll be any real need to do anything with it.
Noob qualifier; any and all the above is open for pot-shots.
Sounds like you've got it all figured out then?
One thing; most machines have a gicleur inside the group to slow down the rush of water when the shot first begins. These are notorious for plugging, so I'd suggest taking it out for inspection & cleaning at least on a quarterly basis. If yours doesn't have a gicleur, never mind.
The document I'm attaching isn't about your machine, but it does explain why it's necessary to keep the gicleur & screen clean.